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Karlis

Ground Zero Mosque

Shold the mosque be approved? Or not approved?  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the building of a mosque be approved?



637 posts in this topic

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ExpandMyMind

Okay, Al-Qaeda isn't that large of a group in and of itself, but it is inspiring a rather larger movement.

how large? how many of the 1.4 billion muslims has it inspired? if you can't back this up with actual facts, then it's pointless throwing in terms like 'rather large'. compared to what?

Edited by expandmymind

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aquatus1

Aquatus1, saying all muslims follow the same religion is roughly similar to say all Christians follow the same religion.

Roughly? It's pretty much identical.

But within Christianity you have wild splinter groups with wildly different ideologies. Just like Islam. There are Christian groups that "most" Christians would blanch at even being called Christian. Just like Islam. There are Christian groups that want the world to end, that follow dodge false prophets, that evangelise every chance they get, that believe all manner of craziness. Just like Islam.

Yes.

You are falling into the us vs them trap. The terrorists of 9/11 were a cult group not represenative of Islam as a whole.

Being that I quite plainly stated before my personal view (and indeed, another member even went so far as to explain my stance to someone making a similar mistake to yours), and I separated my personal opinion from that of the reason why the mosque was being built, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you have fallen into the trap of polar opposites? That anyone who isn't on my side of the argument must be on the other side?

I propose that there is a third option; that of the impartial third-party observer. The one who is more of a realist, or rather, pragmatist. Personally, I don't much care about which religion is involved, or why the anger exists. My concern is that it does exist and that it is having an effect. That I personally know the difference between Islam and extremists is neither here nor there. The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people in New York, and for that matter, the rest of the country, no more separate the terrorists in Islam from the child abusers in the RCC.

To me, this isn't a political or a religious thing. This is nothing more than a security exercise. As I said before, I have no problem with the community center. It is only the mosque that causes me concern.

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Doc Socks Junior

how large? how many of the 1.4 billion muslims has it inspired? if you can't back this up with actual facts, then it's pointless throwing in terms like 'rather large'. compared to what?

Okay, maybe little things like this make me think that.

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=11773

http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tss2/islterror.html

http://muhammadanism.org/Government/government_sharia_ideology.htm

Now, to explain my stance. I believe that Al-Qaeda is indeed a limited group of Islamic terrorists, and not representative of every single Muslim out there. However, it is troubling that they can "justify" their violence with the same religion that moderate Muslims practice. This points to a deep-seated schizophrenic divide in Islamic consciousness.

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danielost

i say they are a large group. when a train in india can be stopped and every man woman and child that is not muslim can be killed, because one none muslim insulted one muslim on that train.

when a moderate muslim woman one week can go on the factor and tell bill how not all muslims are radical and the next week she is leading the call for the murder of the pope who was quoting a man who had died several centuries earlier.

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Doc Socks Junior

Maybe provide some sources for that? I'm pretty sure you have to expect someone to ask.

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danielost

Maybe provide some sources for that? I'm pretty sure you have to expect someone to ask.

sorry it has been a couple of years not sure what to look under and i will not detract the first part. the second part i have never been able to find anything on fox.com even when the story is on tv at the time.

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Leah G.

Europe to establish some kind of a dialogue process with their counterparts and to disown the actions and opinions of extremists. As Europe's governments step up their efforts to root out Islamic extremists, the future holds one of two possibilities: either the continent's 20 million Muslims will integrate smoothly into their countries' economic and political life, or they will remain on the margins, disaffected and potentially dangerous.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Front_Page/FH12Aa02.html

This is as close to an estimate as I could find and it's not just the US, it's the world. It's from the Asia Times. I don't know if it answers your question but I tried.

H.

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grither

**See if you can post without insulting people this time.**

Edited by aquatus1

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ExpandMyMind

Okay, maybe little things like this make me think that.

http://www.antiwar.com/deliso/?articleid=11773

http://www.angelfire.com/or3/tss2/islterror.html

http://muhammadanism.org/Government/government_sharia_ideology.htm

Now, to explain my stance. I believe that Al-Qaeda is indeed a limited group of Islamic terrorists, and not representative of every single Muslim out there. However, it is troubling that they can "justify" their violence with the same religion that moderate Muslims practice. This points to a deep-seated schizophrenic divide in Islamic consciousness.

yes, scare pieces usually do their job well.

anyone could selectively quote the bible or any other holy book to justify evil acts. that does not point to ' a deep-seated schizophrenic divide in islamic consciousness', as you suggest.

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Doc Socks Junior

yes, scare pieces usually do their job well.

They aren't really scare pieces. Try and think outside the box.

anyone could selectively quote the bible or any other holy book to justify evil acts. that does not point to ' a deep-seated schizophrenic divide in islamic consciousness', as you suggest.

Eh, it does to me. Just like people doing as you say with the Bible would suggest the same thing.

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ExpandMyMind

They aren't really scare pieces. Try and think outside the box.

:lol:

there was a reason i chose this username...

Edited by expandmymind

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Doc Socks Junior

:lol:

there was a reason i chose this username...

:w00t:

Oh man, you're right.

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ninjadude

Being that I quite plainly stated before my personal view (and indeed, another member even went so far as to explain my stance to someone making a similar mistake to yours), and I separated my personal opinion from that of the reason why the mosque was being built, wouldn't it be more accurate to say that you have fallen into the trap of polar opposites? That anyone who isn't on my side of the argument must be on the other side?

apparently my reading comprehension is suspect.

The simple fact of the matter is that the vast majority of the people in New York, and for that matter, the rest of the country, no more separate the terrorists in Islam from the child abusers in the RCC.

And that fact must be corrected, railed against, upset, overturned, educated wherever possible. IMO. To let a lie stand without correction is a symptom of problems in our society.

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ninjadude

Okay, maybe little things like this make me think that.

http://www.antiwar.c...articleid=11773

http://www.angelfire.../islterror.html

http://muhammadanism...ia_ideology.htm

Now, to explain my stance. I believe that Al-Qaeda is indeed a limited group of Islamic terrorists, and not representative of every single Muslim out there. However, it is troubling that they can "justify" their violence with the same religion that moderate Muslims practice. This points to a deep-seated schizophrenic divide in Islamic consciousness.

There are no numbers in any of these articles either.

The schizo divide you ascribe can be done to Christianity as well. There are wacko cult groups (some that you may even think are mainstream, others with "compounds" of violence training), some that are trying very hard to control US government through various means, that believe things that would make a majority of Christians blanch. They "justify" their beliefs with the same religion that moderate Christians practice.

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Doc Socks Junior

There are no numbers in any of these articles either.

The schizo divide you ascribe can be done to Christianity as well. There are wacko cult groups (some that you may even think are mainstream, others with "compounds" of violence training), some that are trying very hard to control US government through various means, that believe things that would make a majority of Christians blanch. They "justify" their beliefs with the same religion that moderate Christians practice.

Okay, numbers are here. It's an interesting estimate...I'd say just pay attention to the first section, because the writer branches off a little after that.

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

Which Christian groups are these? What are their numbers?

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ninjadude

Okay, numbers are here. It's an interesting estimate...I'd say just pay attention to the first section, because the writer branches off a little after that.

http://www.danielpip.../comments/65537

Which Christian groups are these? What are their numbers?

That guy is seriously deranged. You could apply his critieria to Christianity.

I'm not pointing out Xian cult groups or their small and large numbers because I don't want to offend UM members or rules.

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ExpandMyMind

Okay, numbers are here. It's an interesting estimate...I'd say just pay attention to the first section, because the writer branches off a little after that.

http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/65537

Which Christian groups are these? What are their numbers?

that's supposed to be a joke, right?

i'm only four paragraphs down (original link http://www.prophetofdoom.net/article.aspx?g=41111 ) and already it becomes clear that this author is an idiot.

further down from all the nonsense above

Opinion polls taken by the British Government reveal that 70% of Iraqis think killing Americans is justified, something that is impossible to justify outside the conditioning of fundamentalist Islam.

ehh.. impossible to justify? invading a country isn't reason enough for the victims of the war to think it's justified to kill the invaders? no, no, the only explanation could be fundamentalist islam....

i'm not even going to bother commenting any further other than to say the author makes many conclusions without considering any other possibilities of blame, except, yup, fundamentalist islam.

Edited by expandmymind

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Doc Socks Junior

Okay, sure. Good excuse man.

EDIT: This is to ninja.

Anyway, as far as the article goes. Just because the author disagrees with you...doesn't mean that you have to dismiss his opinion entirely.

Edited by socrates.junior

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ExpandMyMind

any of that for me?

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Redbo6982

Okay to build a mosque at ground zero is the equivalent of building a nazi monument at aushwitz or a shinto temple in nanking china. Its disgraceful to build any religous monument period at this location because it supposed to remember the victims who all had different beliefs but in the end were all americans. On the other things I've read you know I'm sorry but when I see world wide celebrations when americans die I tend to start to think of all of those people as the enemy, I feel sorry for the ones who just want to live their lives in peace because all of their bretheren who celebrate death and chaos always appear to be the majority. It's not our fault our societies in this part of the world evolved past relishing death to the point to where we are celebrating in the streets but theirs havent and as long as they celebrate death there will never be a common ground. They should just be thankful we arent as we were around the WW2 era because we would carpet bomb their cities kill truly indiscriminatley and punish to a point to where they couldnt even imagine attacking us again.. just saying

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Leah G.

Okay to build a mosque at ground zero is the equivalent of building a nazi monument at aushwitz or a shinto temple in nanking china. Its disgraceful to build any religous monument period at this location because it supposed to remember the victims who all had different beliefs but in the end were all americans. On the other things I've read you know I'm sorry but when I see world wide celebrations when americans die I tend to start to think of all of those people as the enemy, I feel sorry for the ones who just want to live their lives in peace because all of their bretheren who celebrate death and chaos always appear to be the majority. It's not our fault our societies in this part of the world evolved past relishing death to the point to where we are celebrating in the streets but theirs havent and as long as they celebrate death there will never be a common ground. They should just be thankful we arent as we were around the WW2 era because we would carpet bomb their cities kill truly indiscriminatley and punish to a point to where they couldnt even imagine attacking us again.. just saying

Wow, good point but along with evolving past finding joy in killing envolves showing mercy more indiscrimintley too.

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aquatus1
And that fact must be corrected, railed against, upset, overturned, educated wherever possible. IMO. To let a lie stand without correction is a symptom of problems in our society.

And if you feel that way, more power to you. However, there are points which must be acknowledged.

The first is that not everyone feels it is their duty to change the opinion of everyone else. Some people prefer to deal with the immediate problem at hand, and they should not be judged as part of the mislead masses simply because they do so. Just because symptoms are not the source of the problem does not mean they do not require attention.

The second is that stereotypes are stereotypes for a reason. They do actually tend to represent an accurate view of the majority, and are only incorrectly used when applied to a specific individual. Now, in this particular case, it turns out that the stereotype is actually accurate, in that this individual does indeed advocate the specific religious ideology that Islam in general is being accused of.

And the third is simply that there are some things that transcend religion, and one of them is culture. Believe it or not, culture often trumps religion, and religion has had to, on many, many, occasions, modify itself before becoming acceptable. In this case, we are talking generally about the American culture, and specifically about the New York culture. Like it or not, the idea of a religion attempting to emplace a religious system of law and order is simply unacceptable, above and beyond that it is a religion which is currently out of favor. Add to that that it wishes to create a center of worship almost directly on the site of the largest terrorist action attributed to people of that religion makes it even worse. There isn't a culture in the world that wouldn't regard this as a slap in the face. The simple fact of the matter is that this is still fresh and new in the minds of New Yorkers (Heck, the place is still being rebuilt, for heaven's sake), and if the general feeling is that it is, at the very least, in bad taste to build a mosque there, then building one is not going to do anything to make the feeling go away. If anything, it is going to increase antipathy against the religion.

No one is demanding that all mosques be torn down. No one is demanding that Islamist be rounded up and deported. No one is even complaining about new mosques being built. This is a very specific complaint against a very specific mosque, and it is not even a complaint against the people or the practices of their culture, as no one is complaining about the Muslim cultural center. Heck, for that matter, no one is complaining about the cultural center expanding either. The only problem, the only problem, among a myriad of other equally valid complaints, is the mosque.

Some people have tried to make this out to be an issue of racism. Others of bigotry, others of religious intolerance. Some have even gone so far as to claim it to be a constitutional issue. It is, ultimately, none of these. It is, when all is said and done, an issue of manners. If someone kills your child, and then wishes to go to the funeral, it is bad manners to force yourself in, regardless of the wishes of the other funeral goers. And forcing yourself in is not going to endear any of them to you. All you are going to succeed in doing is creating a security situation, which will then have to be dealt with, and which will ultimately define the immediate future of your relationship.

Edited by aquatus1

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Michelle

Beautifully put, aquatus.

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Agent X

Actually it would also be an issue of culture because some cultures just do not consider it bad manners to go to the child's funeral. Which is part of what is going on here. The Muslims that wish to put up the mosque are simply not interested in the cultural issues, for if they did they would not put it up because the majority of New Yorkers just do not want the Mosque built.

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aquatus1
Actually it would also be an issue of culture because some cultures just do not consider it bad manners to go to the child's funeral.

I can't think of any culture that considers it bad manners to go to a child's funeral. Similarly, I can't think of any culture that does not consider it bad manners to go to a child's funeral when the majority of the funeral goers don't want you there.

Which is part of what is going on here. The Muslims that wish to put up the mosque are simply not interested in the cultural issues, for if they did they would not put it up because the majority of New Yorkers just do not want the Mosque built.

Additionally, it isn't just what the builders intend (even if the imman has publicly advocated the infiltration of Sharia law), but also what others will perceive. The simple fact of the matter is that there are many, many, Islamics out there who will view this as a religious victory.

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