Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Karlis

Ground Zero Mosque

Shold the mosque be approved? Or not approved?  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the building of a mosque be approved?



637 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

Leah G.

Aquatus1,

That was beautifully said and quite eloquent. I hope you write books and it you don't, you should. I'd read them.

H.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agent X
I can't think of any culture that considers it bad manners to go to a child's funeral. Similarly, I can't think of any culture that does not consider it bad manners to go to a child's funeral when the majority of the funeral goers don't want you there.

It was more of a metaphor to show that there are some people who do not respect others. However, if you want to get literal we could always talk about Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist Church who do picket people's funerals because of a perceived association with homosexuals. They believe they have every right to do this and have absolutely no respect for the people at these funerals and obviously must not consider it bad manners to spout their crap at funerals.

But I think this could possibly classify as a sub culture using a larger culture to justify their actions.

The simple fact of the matter is that there are many, many, Islamics out there who will view this as a religious victory.

Right, I did express earlier in the thread and one reason why I won't support the new mosque.

Edited by Agent X

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude

above and beyond that it is a religion which is currently out of favor.

in certain parts of the US only.

Add to that that it wishes to create a center of worship almost directly on the site of the largest terrorist action attributed to people of that religion makes it even worse.

it's two CITY blocks away. It is in now way almost anything near the WTC.

There isn't a culture in the world that wouldn't regard this as a slap in the face. The simple fact of the matter is that this is still fresh and new in the minds of New Yorkers (Heck, the place is still being rebuilt, for heaven's sake), and if the general feeling is that it is, at the very least, in bad taste to build a mosque there, then building one is not going to do anything to make the feeling go away. If anything, it is going to increase antipathy against the religion.

new yorkers need to get over it.

It is, when all is said and done, an issue of manners. If someone kills your child, and then wishes to go to the funeral, it is bad manners to force yourself in, regardless of the wishes of the other funeral goers. And forcing yourself in is not going to endear any of them to you

two blocks away. expanding an existing facility. people that already live there. Is not manners. You would expect New Yorkers of a certain religion to walk quietly and hide in their houses. 9/11 happened years ago now. How big is this "hallowed" ground? IF you delinate that area I'm sure everyone would respect it. How long is it hallowed? When some group you don't agree with sets up shop in one of the rebuilt buildings, will we get more hysteria?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
aquatus1

in certain parts of the US only.

In American society in general. In New York specifically.

it's two CITY blocks away. It is in now way almost anything near the WTC.

Two blocks is less than 100 meters. WTC Plaza is 300 meters on a side. It's right next door.

new yorkers need to get over it.

What an utterly insensitive, rude, and barbaric thing to say.

two blocks away. expanding an existing facility. people that already live there.

Which has been already stated and agreed to and which no one has a problem with.

Is not manners. You would expect New Yorkers of a certain religion to walk quietly and hide in their houses.

You would expect it. And yet, it doesn't happen. As a matter of fact, New Yorkers of a certain religion, wearing the clothes of their culture, were visitors at the Ground Zero memorial, and there was not a single instance of them being harassed. Again, Americans in general, and New Yorkers specifically, don't have a problem with either the people or the culture. They have a problem with the religion.

9/11 happened years ago now.

It's a good thing that it didn't affect you so deeply. That you don't hurt, or still feel anger, at the attack. That you don't feel personally violated about such an impersonal attack.

It's a good thing for you. Congratulations on having such an iron hide.

How big is this "hallowed" ground?

Like most spiritual things, it's as big as people consider it to be.

IF you delinate that area I'm sure everyone would respect it. How long is it hallowed?

If you delineate exactly when people should "Get over" a terrorist attack in the middle of their city which resulted in over 3000 dead, delineate exactly how long the allowed mourning period should be, and delineate just how much religious expression is acceptable, I'm sure someone would be willing to take you seriously enough to answer your request.

When some group you don't agree with sets up shop in one of the rebuilt buildings, will we get more hysteria?

We haven't gotten any hysteria yet, although some of your comments are getting pretty emotional. But when that happens, it will be dealt with in the exact same way this one is being dealt with. After all, it is an identical situation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Ufo Believer

I find it funny that there already is a mosque 3 blocks from where WTC was before 9-11. Why do they need another one...or atleast put it somewhere else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude

In American society in general. In New York specifically.

You paint American and NYC with very broad strokes and stereotypes. That's ok but we'll have to disagree about your conclusions.

Two blocks is less than 100 meters. WTC Plaza is 300 meters on a side. It's right next door.

A standard city block in Manhatten is 270m so it's really some 540 meters.

100 meters in a large city is not right next door. In some rural context, certainly.

What an utterly insensitive, rude, and barbaric thing to say.

ok you got me. But NYC is not all of America (300 million). You're beginning to sound like those who can't get over the Civil war (some 160 years ago).

You would expect it. And yet, it doesn't happen. As a matter of fact, New Yorkers of a certain religion, wearing the clothes of their culture, were visitors at the Ground Zero memorial, and there was not a single instance of them being harassed. Again, Americans in general, and New Yorkers specifically, don't have a problem with either the people or the culture. They have a problem with the religion.

Their religion is a large part their culture. You can't separate the two. The same is true of orthodox jews or fundie christians. And as we agree it is an ignorant misunderstanding of their religion.

It's a good thing that it didn't affect you so deeply. That you don't hurt, or still feel anger, at the attack. That you don't feel personally violated about such an impersonal attack.

It did. in 2001. IF you were personally affected, you have my deepest sympathies. Really. But 300 million Americans were not personally affected. Even in NYC.

Like most spiritual things, it's as big as people consider it to be.

meaning that there is no delination. And therefore, it's whatever "people" get all hysterical about. Again how are people supposed to know where they can and can't build to avoid emotional over-reactions? Without saying so directly, I can assume you'd prefer them out of the country?

If you delineate exactly when people should "Get over" a terrorist attack in the middle of their city which resulted in over 3000 dead, delineate exactly how long the allowed mourning period should be, and delineate just how much religious expression is acceptable, I'm sure someone would be willing to take you seriously enough to answer your request.

I would recommend reading about similar things in Oklahoma city for instance. They are sad, build memorials, remembered. But went on with their lives.

We haven't gotten any hysteria yet,

I consider all the hoopla over this mosque to be entirely hysteria. It's hysteria that is keeping it from being rebuilt. Listen to 911uilani. He can't speak without mentioning 9/11. It's entirely why he didn't go anywhere in the 2008 election.

Edited by ninjadude

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
aquatus1
You paint American and NYC with very broad strokes and stereotypes. That's ok but we'll have to disagree about your conclusions.

Of course. How else, but to use broad strokes and stereotypes? We are, after all, talking about an extremely large city and an even larger country. To use specifics would be the height of inaccuracy.

A standard city block in Manhatten is 270m so it's really some 540 meters.

100 meters in a large city is not right next door. In some rural context, certainly.

City blocks in Manhattan also go down to 80 m. I chose something in the middle.

ok you got me. But NYC is not all of America (300 million). You're beginning to sound like those who can't get over the Civil war (some 160 years ago).

Nor is a mosque being asked to be built in all of America. We are indeed speaking specifically of one mosque, in one specific place. You can try to make me out to be some sort of irrational objectionist, but it looses its impact every time I have to return you from broad accussations and strokes back to the reality of a very specific target and scenario.

Their religion is a large part their culture. You can't separate the two. The same is true of orthodox jews or fundie christians. And as we agree it is an ignorant misunderstanding of their religion.

I don't need to separate the two. They are doing it themselves. They are, after all, Americans, and in America, religion and culture are considered separate things.

It did. in 2001. IF you were personally affected, you have my deepest sympathies. Really. But 300 million Americans were not personally affected. Even in NYC.

And we are not worried about the ones that were not affected. If we were, this would not even be an issue. We are worried about the ones that were. They are the ones who are mounting opposition. And there do seem to be a large quantity of them.

meaning that there is no delination. And therefore, it's whatever "people" get all hysterical about. Again how are people supposed to know where they can and can't build to avoid emotional over-reactions? Without saying so directly, I can assume you'd prefer them out of the country?

Now you are getting insulting. Ninjadude, I'm going to ask you to take that last line back, or I will have to ask the other mods to take a look. I am not going to allow you to accuse me of bigotry just to advance your argument.

And no, to pretend that there should be a delineation here is as ridiculous as pretending that there should be a delectation in any other emotional and spiritual issue. How you tell what the limits are is the same way we are telling here. You try and see what the reactions are. In this case, the reaction was fine when it was just a cultural center. The reaction was not fine when they chose to include a mosque. That was the limit.

I would recommend reading about similar things in Oklahoma city for instance. They are sad, build memorials, remembered. But went on with their lives.

And similarly, you would tell a grieving mother to read about how other mothers lost their children, and how they have moved on?

No matter how much you wish people would just shake hand and make up, that approach only works in the playground, and only while the teacher is around. The children themselves always remain resentful.

I consider all the hoopla over this mosque to be entirely hysteria. It's hysteria that is keeping it from being rebuilt.

Well, considering the rest of your emotional advice, I'm not really all that surprised. You seem to have something of a ham-handed approach towards emotional situations.

But no, while I understand how you would love to be able to classify "all the hoopla" as hysteria, it is not (broad strokes of the brush, there). Hysteria is the most extreme form of emotional collapse, when grief makes rationality impossible, when a person is overwhelmed beyond the ability to present a reasoned defense. To claim that the very reasonable, and civil, reasons that have been given concerning the lack of suitability for the mosque, this is far removed from hysteria. This is, in fact, quite similar to your position, except that yours is more towards the side of emotional emptiness. The extreme equivalent of hysteria on your side of the chart would be cold-heartedness, usually seen in the Hollywood as the soul-less corporation about to kick out the orphans so he can plow down the house and build a new mall.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leah G.

I didn't lose anyone on 911 but I was personally effected and so was everyone I know except for a few that actually told me that it served us Americans right and it was good for us to know what their orginal country had been going thru for years. I found that very cold and I did resist the urge to tell them to go back to their orginal country because I was pretty sure they just didn't understand the incident. In hind sight, I wonder if they weren't just a little happy about it. At the time I couldn't believe that anyone would be and yes a few were muslims. People all over the US had to stay home for work up to two weeks and planes were grounded for a few day, I remember it like it was yesterday. It was the day the US lost it's illusion of safety. To say that every American in the US was not effected is wrong, we were. Pearl Habor in a way wasn't as bad as this because it was the main land and Hawaii was still an exotic island to most people and was'nt a state yet, not until 1959, they were bombed in 1941.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
venqax
Again how are people supposed to know where they can and can't build to avoid emotional over-reactions? Without saying so directly, I can assume you'd prefer them out of the country?

Are you suggesting that Muslims in NYC would not know that building a mosque near the 9/11 site was problematic? That this is something that they simply could not have forseen, and it somehow creates a chilling effect for religious construction projects? They are just hapless victims of all this hysteria, poor folks. If I'm ever tried for murder, I hope you are on my jury. I mean, shooting someone in the head killed them? How could I have possibly connected those dots? Am I supposed to be psychic?

If someone has to say it, I will-- Yes, I'd prefer them out of the country. Very much. Some of them are good people and a few are bad people, but life and everything about it would be either easier or unaffected by them not being here. So there. I don't hate them, but if they are immigrants, they don't have a right be here, either, and frankly, I'd rather they go home. Why should I, or any natural born citizens, have to deal with this at all? If they are not immigrants, then I would rather they not be Muslims. So there again. It is not up to me, of course, but given the preference? I don't think a Muslim population in a non-Muslim country is in any way inherently good. And yes, I know Muslim people. And yes, I like them. And yes, if I could pick their religion for them, I wouldn't pick Muslim. I'd rather they be, I don't know, Presbyterians or something.

Edited by venqax

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Karlis

Sides Dig In Over Ground Zero Mosque

By JACOB GERSHMAN

With city approval of a proposed mosque and Islamic center two blocks away from Ground Zero nearly secured, the battle over the project is moving away from zoning boards to the court of public opinion.

Positions on both sides of the debate have hardened around the mosque, a $100 million project spearheaded by a Kuwaiti-born cleric, Imam Feisal Abdul Rauf, who says the center aims to promote cultural understanding.

The question has turned to whether critics such as families of victims of the September 11 terrorist attacks, who consider the idea of the mosque so close to Ground Zero a deliberate provocation, will be able to generate enough outrage to persuade the imam to revise his plans and build elsewhere.

Read more here

An interesting debate on CNN

Edited by Karlis

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Agent X

Yeah, who gives a flying fling what the people want.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TFSM

Yeah, who gives a flying fling what the people want.

The problem is, those in the minority are often those who need government to protect their rights. Just because a significant amount of people are suspicious of the muslim faith doesn't mean that laws should be made biased against the religion. I would honestly rather there not be any religious buildings erected at ground zero. Either religion has everything to do with it (as some claim) and this is a holy war between muslims and christians that caused the deaths of thousands, or this is apolitical issue and religion has no place in it. I would be willing to bet that a significant number of people at the WTC were no christian. Either you let all religions pay respects or you let no religions do so. There is no in between, regardless of public opinion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leah G.

The problem is, those in the minority are often those who need government to protect their rights. Just because a significant amount of people are suspicious of the muslim faith doesn't mean that laws should be made biased against the religion. I would honestly rather there not be any religious buildings erected at ground zero. Either religion has everything to do with it (as some claim) and this is a holy war between muslims and christians that caused the deaths of thousands, or this is apolitical issue and religion has no place in it. I would be willing to bet that a significant number of people at the WTC were no christian. Either you let all religions pay respects or you let no religions do so. There is no in between, regardless of public opinion.

Now see that's the rub. Muslim is not only a religion it's a system of law that the religious zelots carry with them. It's not so much against the religion but against the law of the religion. Besides, it's in the best intrest of the Muslims to not build a mosque there, not only would it cause hard feelings for a majority of the people it would cause a dangerous situation for a minority of Muslims. Isn't it the liberal theme: The good of the many out weigh the needs of the few? I don't see how they need a mosque there anyway, there are lots of them around, why do they want one right there??? It's hard to imagine that the government is actually considering allowing one to be built. Of course, I could be wrong but it seems to me they all went stupid in the past few years throwing commonsense, morality, guts, and an abilty to see past one's nose right out of the window!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Michelle

For the ADL, it's an issue of "consistency," said Mr. Foxman, who cited his organization's protests in the late 1980s against a Carmelite convent near the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland.

"If we want the national community to understand our pain and sensitivity, then we need to be sensitive to the pain of other victims," Mr. Foxman said

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this instance, I think Muslims could be more understanding...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
TFSM

Now see that's the rub. Muslim is not only a religion it's a system of law that the religious zelots carry with them. It's not so much against the religion but against the law of the religion. Besides, it's in the best intrest of the Muslims to not build a mosque there, not only would it cause hard feelings for a majority of the people it would cause a dangerous situation for a minority of Muslims. Isn't it the liberal theme: The good of the many out weigh the needs of the few? I don't see how they need a mosque there anyway, there are lots of them around, why do they want one right there??? It's hard to imagine that the government is actually considering allowing one to be built. Of course, I could be wrong but it seems to me they all went stupid in the past few years throwing commonsense, morality, guts, and an abilty to see past one's nose right out of the window!

It's not any more a system of law than christianity is. When you paint an entire religion (which happens to be the largest religion in the world) based on the actions of a few you make yourself into a bigot.The only reason not to build a mosque at 9/11 would be due to the risk of reaction from christian extremists. Even then, should we be basing domestic policies on whatever course of action placates domestic terrorists?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Brand X
If someone has to say it, I will-- Yes, I'd prefer them out of the country. Very much. Some of them are good people and a few are bad people, but life and everything about it would be either easier or unaffected by them not being here. So there. I don't hate them, but if they are immigrants, they don't have a right be here, either, and frankly, I'd rather they go home. Why should I, or any natural born citizens, have to deal with this at all?

That's pretty much what most native Americans say/said/think/thought. Remember your roots, your great grandparents were once those immigrants (illegal even, if you could name it that back then) that would have been "preffered out of the country", and didn't "have a right to be here" either. So with your ideas on immigration, you wouldn't have even been here today.

Criminals/trouble makers, who weren't born in this country, they should be kicked out, yes, but to kick out good willing people is ridiculous, hypocritical even.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Leah G.

It's not any more a system of law than christianity is. When you paint an entire religion (which happens to be the largest religion in the world) based on the actions of a few you make yourself into a bigot.The only reason not to build a mosque at 9/11 would be due to the risk of reaction from christian extremists. Even then, should we be basing domestic policies on whatever course of action placates domestic terrorists?

I'm sorry but it is their system of law, Shiria Law. It's their religion, they make their religion in to law. If I'm not mistaken, I said a few religious zelots, not all o them make it in to their law. I really don't think stating facts the way I see them after hours of research makes me a bigot. Basing domestic policy on something like this has been done many times. Even if Muslims are the largest religion in the world it doesn't mean their right and it doesn't mean everyone has to see God the way they do or even believe in God, it's a personal choice.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
aquatus1
The only reason not to build a mosque at 9/11 would be due to the risk of reaction from christian extremists.

More specifically, the only security risks would be from extremists. The building of the mosque, however, would foster ill feelings from people who wouldn't pose a risk, however. It may well even move some people from a neutral stance to a stand against them. What it won't do is make people more understanding and tolerant.

The cultural center, on the other hand, would create no ill feelings, nor would it be likely to cause people to leave a neutral stance. Indeed, it may well be a step forward in creating understanding and tolerance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
venqax

That's pretty much what most native Americans say/said/think/thought. Remember your roots, your great grandparents were once those immigrants (illegal even, if you could name it that back then) that would have been "preffered out of the country", and didn't "have a right to be here" either. So with your ideas on immigration, you wouldn't have even been here today.

Criminals/trouble makers, who weren't born in this country, they should be kicked out, yes, but to kick out good willing people is ridiculous, hypocritical even.

I didn't say anything about all immigrants. I said these immigrants. Specifically. And for sound reasons. If my ancestors had been "preferred" out, then they would have been out. There were no ACLUs protecting immigrants back then. They weren't those immigrants. If they hadn't fit in and behaved, they would have been pushed out or worse. How is it in any way hypocritical? That doesn't even make sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Doc Socks Junior

For the ADL, it's an issue of "consistency," said Mr. Foxman, who cited his organization's protests in the late 1980s against a Carmelite convent near the Auschwitz concentration camp in Poland.

"If we want the national community to understand our pain and sensitivity, then we need to be sensitive to the pain of other victims," Mr. Foxman said

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In this instance, I think Muslims could be more understanding...

Wait, why were they protesting the convent? I'm pretty sure that Catholic priests died in large numbers during the Holocaust...

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/persecution/pch0229.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude

. People all over the US had to stay home for work up to two weeks

What?!!! No one I know stayed home. At all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude

If someone has to say it, I will-- Yes, I'd prefer them out of the country. Very much. Some of them are good people and a few are bad people, but life and everything about it would be either easier or unaffected by them not being here. So there. I don't hate them, but if they are immigrants, they don't have a right be here, either, and frankly, I'd rather they go home. Why should I, or any natural born citizens, have to deal with this at all? If they are not immigrants, then I would rather they not be Muslims. So there again. It is not up to me, of course, but given the preference? I don't think a Muslim population in a non-Muslim country is in any way inherently good. And yes, I know Muslim people. And yes, I like them. And yes, if I could pick their religion for them, I wouldn't pick Muslim. I'd rather they be, I don't know, Presbyterians or something.

One of the more offensive passages you've every written.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude

no. no hysteria at all. You guys are comical.

RIGHT-WING FREAK OUT: In May, news of the project grew more widespread and inflamed anti-Muslim rhetoric from the right (even though there has been a mosque in the neighborhood since the 1980s). Enraged (and now disgraced) Tea Party leader Mark Williams said the site would allow Muslims to worship their "monkey-god." From there, a right-wing freak out was born. "I hope somebody blows it up," said conservative radio talk show host Michael Berry. Rush Limbaugh said that because of the project, alleged 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed won't "have an impossible time" getting a "sympathetic jury" if he is tried in New York. The Weekly Standard's Bill Kristol writes today that in order to save his presidency, President Obama should say the Islamic center is "a bad idea." Conservative blogger and executive director of "Stop Islamization of America" (SIOA) Pamela Geller said the Islamic center is a "triumphal mosque" on "conquered lands." The National Republican Trust PAC -- which has doled out funds to various Republican candidates for Congress, including Sen. John Thune (R-SD) -- recently launched an ad urging Americans to "join the fight" against the mosque project. Not making any distinction between the 9/11 terrorists and ASMA or Muslims in general, the ad says, "On Sept. 11, they declared war against us. And to celebrate that murder of 3,000 Americans, they want to build a monstrous 13-story mosque at Ground Zero. ... That mosque is a monument to their victory and an invitation for more. A mosque at Ground Zero must not stand." Hostility to building mosques has spread across the country. In Mufreesboro, Tennessee, residents gathered to protest the construction of a mosque, while the planned construction of a mosque in Southern California is inspiring similarly fierce opposition from local conservatives
source

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude
City officials, particularly Mayor Michael R. Bloomberg, have forcefully defended the project on the grounds of religious freedom, saying that government has no place dictating where a house of worship is located. The local community board has given overwhelming backing to the project, and the city’s landmarks commission is expected to do the same on Tuesday.

“What is great about America, and particularly New York, is we welcome everybody, and if we are so afraid of something like this, what does that say about us?” Mr. Bloomberg asked recently.

“Democracy is stronger than this,” he added. “And for us to just say no is just, I think — not appropriate is a nice way to phrase it.”

source

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
ninjadude
I know the people who run the initiative; they are, for lack of a better term, "peace-seeking Muslims." I spoke at a program co-sponsored by Cordoba last year, and I came to understand that the organization is interested mainly in battling extremism within Islam, and in building bridges to non-Muslim faiths. It seems to me that its mission makes Cordoba an appropriate fit for Ground Zero. One of the ways to prevent future Ground Zeroes is to encourage moderation within Islam, and to treat Muslim moderates differently than we treat Muslim extremists. The campaign against this mosque treats all Muslims as perpetrators. This is a terrible mistake, for moral and strategic reasons.
source

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.