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Karlis

Ground Zero Mosque

Shold the mosque be approved? Or not approved?  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the building of a mosque be approved?



637 posts in this topic

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DieChecker

It is a shame that these Muslims are trying to build the center to promote peaceful understanding and they are willing to alienate the entire south side of Manhattan to make sure that they "peaceful understanding" is allowed to happen. If they are peaceful and want only understanding and peace, why are they forcing the issue? Why not move to another location and then preach from there?

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Brand X

I didn't say anything about all immigrants. I said these immigrants. Specifically. And for sound reasons. If my ancestors had been "preferred" out, then they would have been out. There were no ACLUs protecting immigrants back then. They weren't those immigrants. If they hadn't fit in and behaved, they would have been pushed out or worse. How is it in any way hypocritical? That doesn't even make sense.

Some day it'll all make sense to you.

Untill then, cheers :tu:

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venqax

One of the more offensive passages you've every written.

That's easy to say. Easy and lazy. The sentiments of the post are nonetheless the way I would bet money that most-- not all, but most-- Americans feel about the Muslim "issue". They are just too polite to say so. Politeness has its place, but this isn't it. Unless you can articulate (I don't necessarily mean ninja) a reason-- not just a feeling-- that they should not feel that way, then you have nothing of value to contribute to the discussion of the issue. It is still ok to protect yourself and defend your society. No matter how much the PC left tries to make it seem "hateful" and not nice.

Question: Why should Americans want a Muslim population in the US? NOT why should Muslims be kept out, or kicked out, or if those here should be marginalized-- those are different issues-- but is there any reason we should actively desire a Muslim population within American society? In what ways are Islamic values compatible with, let alone beneficial to, American/Western/democratic values?

And more importantly, would anyone want to argue that the answers to the above questions are irrelevant to the public polity? They are certainly treated as if they are-- asking them is not even allowed in most public forums.

Edited by venqax

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Agent X

Well, according to the AP article it's going to be built.

The Landmarks Preservation Commission voted 9-0, saying the 152-year-old building blocks from the site of the Sept. 11 attacks wasn't special or distinctive enough to meet criteria to qualify as a landmark. Commissioners also said that other buildings from the era were better examples of the building's style.

Shameful.

The Shame Of New York

Edited by Agent X

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Leah G.

What?!!! No one I know stayed home. At all.

You must know a lot of people to think that covers the whole US. Lots of people I knew had to stay home, I was not one of them. Different people had different experiences and the US is a big place.

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Eldorado

Question: Why should Americans want a Muslim population in the US? NOT why should Muslims be kept out, or kicked out, or if those here should be marginalized-- those are different issues-- but is there any reason we should actively desire a Muslim population within American society? In what ways are Islamic values compatible with, let alone beneficial to, American/Western/democratic values?

And more importantly, would anyone want to argue that the answers to the above questions are irrelevant to the public polity? They are certainly treated as if they are-- asking them is not even allowed in most public forums.

" I don't think a Muslim population in a non-Muslim country is in any way inherently good. And yes, I know Muslim people. And yes, I like them. And yes, if I could pick their religion for them, I wouldn't pick Muslim. I'd rather they be, I don't know, Presbyterians or something."

Have you ever read the First Amendment of the US Constitution?

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

You can't cherry-pick which parts of the Constitution to uphold.

Edited by Eldorado

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venqax

" I don't think a Muslim population in a non-Muslim country is in any way inherently good. And yes, I know Muslim people. And yes, I like them. And yes, if I could pick their religion for them, I wouldn't pick Muslim. I'd rather they be, I don't know, Presbyterians or something."

Have you ever read the First Amendment of the US Constitution?

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Am1

You can't cherry-pick which parts of the Constitution to uphold.

What in the world does any of what I said have to do with the First Amendment? (hint: THINK before you answer)

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Eldorado

What in the world does any of what I said have to do with the First Amendment? (hint: THINK before you answer)

You don't want any Muslims in America, but Freedom of Religion is protected by the Constitution.

hint: It aint up to you what others believe in.

And btw, your posts are borderline racist.

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Agent X

He is expressing his opinion, unpopular as it may be among liberals. He is saying he just doesn't care for the religion of Islam. That has nothing to do with your tactic of trying to silence him.

You see, freedom of speech gives people the right to express unpopular opinions too, not just the popular one. It also allows people to express bigoted and prejudiced and racist opinions as well.

But also keep in mind two things,:

This is a board in Scotland, and in Scotland there is no such thing as freedom of speech.

Also, racism has to do with ethnic and cultural bias, not religious.

Edited by Agent X

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Eldorado

Well done.

That's quite possibly one of the stupidest posts I've ever read on here.

The comment....

"So there. I don't hate them, but if they are immigrants, they don't have a right be here, either, and frankly, I'd rather they go home. Why should I, or any natural born citizens, have to deal with this at all?"--Venqax

Immigrants don't have a right to be here is NOT a borderline racist remark? Granted it's more xenophobic, but still...it's trying it's hardest to get there.

(Your other comments don't even merit a reply)

Edited by Eldorado

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Agent X

Where in the Constitution does it say immigrants have a right to be here, legal or otherwise?

There is a clause in the Powers sections that gives the government the authority to set rules for immigration, but where in the BoR does it say that immigrants have a right to be here?

Note, just you know, I do not agree with Venqax's statements about immigration, but I also have a fair amount of hostility towards Islam and Shariah law myself. I also disagree with your statements and feel you have come to the wrong conclusions and are just trying to silence an unpopular opinion.

And I also have a fair amount of hostility towards people who love to use the race card in order to silence opposing viewpoints.

If this were your forum, then you can just out and out ban him at your whim.

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Black Hound

I lost friends when both fell. It was not good as I was on my way to meet them but far enough to not to have to be consummed by the debris and dust/ash from both of them. I don't care how the vote went. To build anything, mosque, skating rink, etc., should not be allowed. A monument, a buildinng dedicated to those who died in the plances and the "First Responders", should be tthere. If something can be done in Oklahoma City to remember the bombing, something appropriate should be raaised at Ground Zero. Sorry if my American fllag is showing beneath my shirt.

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Leah G.

I lost friends when both fell. It was not good as I was on my way to meet them but far enough to not to have to be consummed by the debris and dust/ash from both of them. I don't care how the vote went. To build anything, mosque, skating rink, etc., should not be allowed. A monument, a buildinng dedicated to those who died in the plances and the "First Responders", should be tthere. If something can be done in Oklahoma City to remember the bombing, something appropriate should be raaised at Ground Zero. Sorry if my American fllag is showing beneath my shirt.

Really good post and I am truly sorry for your loss.

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Belial

Why not a giant mirror so everyone can just take a good hard look at themselves ;)

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venqax

You don't want any Muslims in America, but Freedom of Religion is protected by the Constitution.

Dang it, I said THINK, then respond.

I didn't say anyhing about freedom of religion. I didn't say that anyone didn't have the right to be Muslim. I said I would rather they not be. So, again, what does that have to do with the Constitution? The Constitution doesn't say you can't prefer any thing over another. The Constitution limits government- it protects the ability to believe anything you want to. Including the belief that Muslims in a non-Muslim country isn't a recipe for good things.

hint: It aint up to you what others believe in. And btw, your posts are borderline racist.

Best not to try sarcasm-- especially reflexive sarcasm-- till you have the basics down. Like reading comprehension. For example, I clearly said, "If I could pick their religion for them.." The important word being the first one in the sentence.

Racist? Are you against Freedom of Speech? Maybe YOU need to read that amendament what you pointed at.

Edited by venqax

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venqax

He is expressing his opinion, unpopular as it may be among liberals. He is saying he just doesn't care for the religion of Islam. That has nothing to do with your tactic of trying to silence him.

You see, freedom of speech gives people the right to express unpopular opinions too, not just the popular one. It also allows people to express bigoted and prejudiced and racist opinions as well.

But also keep in mind two things,:

This is a board in Scotland, and in Scotland there is no such thing as freedom of speech.

Good points. And there is no "freedom of speech" on private boards anywhere. Not in the US, either. All freedom of speech means is the government can't come after me for expressing an opinion. Why we have to constantly revisit that issue I have no idea. The controllers of this space can ban me or anyone else they want to any time for any reason.

I guess I'm proven right about these questions not even being ask-able. Not even in a political debate forum. Sad, I suppose.

Actually, my opinions are not aimed at Islam as a religion, tho I'd have to say it doesn't have much to recommend it if you care at all about what liberals are always whining about-- theocracy, repression of civil rights, anti-rationalism, etc. I care, tho, when a set of beliefs held by people in my vicinity affects me. and mine.

Edited by venqax

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Michelle

People did not start taking 9/11 out on Muslims in the US...they did not start bombing mosques and assaulting them or their businesses. This started out as a simple request, that another mosque not be put in a place that holds such significance. I have to ask...is there a hidden agenda for his stubbornness.

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Belial

GH wrote:

Sorry if my American fllag is showing beneath my shirt.
is that a statement of intent or just a clever racist slant? Either way i feel it as no place within this thread, more than americans died that day, or is it that it happened in your backyard?

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Eldorado

Dang it, I said THINK, then respond.

I didn't say anyhing about freedom of religion. I didn't say that anyone didn't have the right to be Muslim. I said I would rather they not be. So, again, what does that have to do with the Constitution? The Constitution doesn't say you can't prefer any thing over another. The Constitution limits government- it protects the ability to believe anything you want to. Including the belief that Muslims in a non-Muslim country isn't a recipe for good things.

Best not to try sarcasm-- especially reflexive sarcasm-- till you have the basics down. Like reading comprehension. For example, I clearly said, "If I could pick their religion for them.." The important word being the first one in the sentence.

Racist? Are you against Freedom of Speech? Maybe YOU need to read that amendament what you pointed at.

Of course I'm not against freedom of speech. I was just surprised that an American, in a country renowned and admired for accepting immigrants from the world over, should utter such words as ""So there. I don't hate them, but if they are immigrants, they don't have a right be here, either, and frankly, I'd rather they go home."

Tis sad, that's all.

"read that amendament what you pointed at"?

"I didn't say that anyone didn't have the right to be Muslim. I said I would rather they not be."?

Best not to try writing English until you learn the basics.

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Agent X

Believe it or not that's not unique to Americans. Just remember, America is a melting pot of ideals and cultures and ethnicities, and that is something that seems to be an alien concept to people across the world.

Sometimes to some people even in America.

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Leah G.

GH wrote: is that a statement of intent or just a clever racist slant? Either way i feel it as no place within this thread, more than americans died that day, or is it that it happened in your backyard?

Calling everyone a racist doesn't belong on this thread either. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I fly my American flag daily, so does that make me a racist, no, simply proud to be an American.

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venqax

Of course I'm not against freedom of speech. I was just surprised that an American, in a country renowned and admired for accepting immigrants from the world over, should utter such words as ""So there. I don't hate them, but if they are immigrants, they don't have a right be here, either, and frankly, I'd rather they go home."

Tis sad, that's all.."

Why is that sad? If a group is troublesome, or even potentially troublesome, why would you want them around? It's not like they don't have plenty of countries of their own. Why do the offended Muslims want to come here to the Land of Satan, anyway? Try really answering the question: Why would you want Muslims in your country? I don't think you can answer it, because there is no good reason, but you've been brainwashed (...) into simple reflexive thinking that anything that singles out a group is unjustified, and "difference" from the norm is an inherent good. Why else would you want to assert the absurd notion that immigrants, of any kind, have any "right" to be in any country not their own? I don't think I have a right to emigrate to Tunisia. If I did want to live there, I'd try not to anger the Tunisians with my American ways. Whence come these weird ideas that we live in some undifferentiated sludgelike society with no common values, no common culture, and no enemies, where everything should be welcomed regardless of its consequences? It's juvenile and dangerous. BTW, the whole admiration and yen for immigrants thing is historically innaccurate and trite.

"read that amendament what you pointed at"?...

You really don't get sarcasm, do you? If you pedaled that slow on a bicycle you'd fall over.

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venqax

Calling everyone a racist doesn't belong on this thread either. Everyone has a right to their opinion. I fly my American flag daily, so does that make me a racist, no, simply proud to be an American.

Calling someone a racist is hate speech. It is meant to have a chilling effect on expression and discourse.

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Agent X

No, sarcasm just doesn't translate very well on the internet because it's pure text. You can only imagine how one sounds if you've never met them in person.

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Leah G.

No, sarcasm just doesn't translate very well on the internet because it's pure text. You can only imagine how one sounds if you've never met them in person.

GOOD point. But what is life without a little sense of humor? BORING!

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