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Karlis

Ground Zero Mosque

Shold the mosque be approved? Or not approved?  

87 members have voted

  1. 1. Should the building of a mosque be approved?



637 posts in this topic

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Leah G.

Hi Nibs,

I can't find any other info on it either but if Rush said it he must have some proof somewhere, I would think. If he doesn't, well, I'll be very disappointed and won't beleive much else he says in the future.

They would have a year+ to demolish the other building so the start date is do-able granted tight but do-able. Just to break ground can be done anytime the other building is down. It would be very insulting I think.

H.

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HerNibs

Hi Nibs,

I can't find any other info on it either but if Rush said it he must have some proof somewhere, I would think. If he doesn't, well, I'll be very disappointed and won't beleive much else he says in the future.

They would have a year+ to demolish the other building so the start date is do-able granted tight but do-able. Just to break ground can be done anytime the other building is down. It would be very insulting I think.

H.

:) Well, I agree, that would be insulting to many people and I am taking what Rush says with a grain of salt. He's been known to be a bit less than honest. After all, IMO he's a performer more than a reporter. I listen to him once in a while.

Rush Limbaugh

I do agree that it could be done by then but again, from the site, it doesn't appear that they are fully funded yet or that plans have fully been approved.

Nibs

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Leah G.

I heard this broadcast today.

http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/daily/site_080510/content/01125110.guest.html

There not going to do much if the construction guys won't work on it unless they bring some people in from other places. They mention the start date too. 9/11/11 Shocking! I still can't find another site that states the same thing but they must be getting their information from somewhere.

H.

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aquatus1

ETA- Just saw your post aquatus1 - the mosque has been up and running for a while.

Nibs

No, it has not. They have been praying there for a while, but a prayer room is not the same as a mosque. No one is objecting to them praying.

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shadowlark

What?!!! No one I know stayed home. At all.

I know my dad had to stay home for two weeks up here in Canada. He's Welsh, lived in Canada for 34 years at the time, but never got his citizenship - just landed immigrant status. He works for General Motors/General Dynamics in the light armoured vehicle division, and they made all non-Canadians stay home while they conducted thorough background checks.

It is a shame that these Muslims are trying to build the center to promote peaceful understanding and they are willing to alienate the entire south side of Manhattan to make sure that they "peaceful understanding" is allowed to happen. If they are peaceful and want only understanding and peace, why are they forcing the issue? Why not move to another location and then preach from there?

I would imagine because it's in an area where there is high demand and where they got a good deal. Sure, they could look elsewhere, but buying and converting a building isn't cheap and I would assume they got a good deal on the damaged Burlington Coat Factory building.

I lost friends when both fell. It was not good as I was on my way to meet them but far enough to not to have to be consummed by the debris and dust/ash from both of them. I don't care how the vote went. To build anything, mosque, skating rink, etc., should not be allowed. A monument, a buildinng dedicated to those who died in the plances and the "First Responders", should be tthere. If something can be done in Oklahoma City to remember the bombing, something appropriate should be raaised at Ground Zero. Sorry if my American fllag is showing beneath my shirt.

I'm sorry for your loss, but a monument should be where exactly? Two blocks from where the towers came down?? Yes, a monument should be erected at the site where the towers were but saying people can't build anything two blocks away is a bit ridiculous.

There are several Shinto shrines at Pearl Harbor.They were there before Pearl Harbor and have been restored and are in use today.Just as the Muslim population was strong in the WTC area before it was the WTC area and the new mosque is supplementing several older mosques.Nibs

:tu:

I'm all for the Mosque. Muslims are a part of North American society and have been for hundreds of years. To judge them all based on what a handful of extremists did is ignorant, xenophobic, and, IMHO, wrong.

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Michelle

I would imagine because it's in an area where there is high demand and where they got a good deal. Sure, they could look elsewhere, but buying and converting a building isn't cheap and I would assume they got a good deal on the damaged Burlington Coat Factory building.

That area is one of the highest priced in NYC. They aren't going to convert or restore the historic building they are going to demolish it.

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ExpandMyMind

Rabbis Rally in Support of Ground Zero Mosque

NEW YORK (Aug. 5) -- Rabbis rallied near the World Trade Center site today in support of a planned Islamic center known as the ground zero mosque.

About 20 religious leaders and activists gathered on the street in lower Manhattan today where the mosque is to be built. They said the Cordoba Initiative, the group sponsoring the cultural center, was welcome in New York.

"We need this Islamic center to preach love and respect in contrast to those who preach hate and destruction," Rabbi Richard Jacobs of the Westchester Reform Temple in Scarsdale, N.Y., told reporters.

The rabbis said controversy surrounding the project, which will include a space for prayer, is rooted in intolerance against Muslims.

"Many people still think of Muslims as terrorists," Rabbi Ellen Lippmann, co-chair of Rabbis for Human Rights, told AOL News today in New York. "My hope is that a center like this will help people understand that not all Muslims are violent."

The rabbis also denounced the words of the Anti-Defamation League. The Jewish organization said earlier this week that it would not support the mosque out of respect for the families of the victims of the Sept. 11 attacks who oppose the project, and because of concerns about whether the Cordoba Initiative has ties to terrorism.

http://www.aolnews.com/nation/article/rabbis-rally-in-support-of-ground-zero-mosque/19582704

i read that the planned site is two blocks from ground zero, is that true?

Edited by expandmymind

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HerNibs

No, it has not. They have been praying there for a while, but a prayer room is not the same as a mosque. No one is objecting to them praying.

:) You're correct but I wasn't making the distinction between an actual mosque and a place where a religious group meets on a set day(s) to pray. I call my neighbors house "the church" for the same reason. Jehovah's Witness', they meet at her house (15 cars) and use her house as their "church".

But I agree, there is a distinction, I just wasn't making it.

Nibs

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aquatus1

:) You're correct but I wasn't making the distinction between an actual mosque and a place where a religious group meets on a set day(s) to pray. I call my neighbors house "the church" for the same reason. Jehovah's Witness', they meet at her house (15 cars) and use her house as their "church".

But I agree, there is a distinction, I just wasn't making it.

Nibs

Well, good for you for being so casual about redefining terminology that has been used in one way throughout this entire thread.

Everyone here has been talking about a mosque in the sense that the Muslim people, the Jewish people, New Yorkers...heck, pretty much everyone talking about this subject has defined it. I have even several times distinguished between the existing community center and the mosque. The entire focus of the objection is based on a Islamic house of worship, not on people praying, and it has already been acknowledge that people pray at the community center. The post you responded to specifically refers to the existing and to new construction of mosques (real mosques, not living rooms) in New York. And then you waltz in with the above?

"Oh yeah, sorry, that's not what I meant by mosque."

Seriously, what are we supposed to think about your post?

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ninjadude
The debate over whether an Islamic center should be built a few blocks from the World Trade Center has ignored a fundamental point. If there is going to be a reformist movement in Islam, it is going to emerge from places like the proposed institute. We should be encouraging groups like the one behind this project, not demonizing them. Were this mosque being built in a foreign city, chances are that the U.S. government would be funding it.

If I understand correctly, this is what Aquatus1 believes. I disagree.

But Abraham Foxman, the head of the ADL, explained that we must all respect the feelings of the 9/11 families, even if they are prejudiced feelings. "Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted,"

Fareed Zakaria gives back his award from the ADL

Five years ago, the ADL honored me with its Hubert H. Humphrey First Amendment Freedoms Prize. I was thrilled to get the award from an organization that I had long admired. But I cannot in good conscience keep it anymore. I have returned both the handsome plaque and the $10,000 honorarium that came with it. I urge the ADL to reverse its decision. Admitting an error is a small price to pay to regain a reputation.

source

the ADL exhibits tunnel vision

Abraham H. Foxman, the national director of the ADL, said in the response letter to Mr. Zakaria that “I am not only saddened but stunned and somewhat speechless by your decision.”
source Edited by ninjadude

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aquatus1
But Abraham Foxman, the head of the ADL, explained that we must all respect the feelings of the 9/11 families, even if they are prejudiced feelings. "Their anguish entitles them to positions that others would categorize as irrational or bigoted,"

If I understand correctly, this is what Aquatus1 believes. I disagree.

You would have to be a pretty cold-hearted individual to call a grieving mother irrational or bigoted because she doesn't want her son's killers at the funeral. Regardless of whether the accusation is correct or not, it comes down to a question of manners, not politics.

But if you want this to be a political matter, then we can look at it as one. To do so, the situation must all be balanced with what is willing to be accepted, and what isn't. Is it irrational or bigoted to allow a Muslim cultural center to be built on the site? If no one is going to block the construction of the cultural center, would that not be considered both rational and conciliatory? A step towards understanding?

The art of compromise is both sides have to give a little. The people mounting an objection are not calling for the deportation of all Islamics, nor are they calling for the destruction of all mosques in the country, or the city, nor are they protesting the construction of new Mosques in general. They are not even objecting to the existence of the cultural center. They are not looking, in other words, to escalate. Building a new mosque so close to Ground Zero, when so many people are objecting to it, is an escalation, because they want something that was not on the table before. It is a demand that people forget what they have not yet forgiven. What are the owners of this property offering as their part of the compromise?

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ninjadude

it comes down to a question of manners, not politics.

I disagree but that's ok. In a multicultural society, "manners" is a nebulous concept. What is "good" manners for you or your region of the country or even part of the NYC may not be what is "good" manners for the WTC neighborhood. Which is largely islamic.

The people mounting an objection are not calling for the deportation of all Islamics,

that would be illegal.

nor are they calling for the destruction of all mosques in the country, or the city,

again illegal.

nor are they protesting the construction of new Mosques in general.

wrong. There have been protests and defacings all over the country. Driven by right wing extremists and the ignorant.

They are not even objecting to the existence of the cultural center.

again. there are many islamophobes who do. Some even here on UM.

Building a new mosque so close to Ground Zero, when so many people are objecting to it,

so a religous group must make a opinion poll to see if it's ok to build something? I've got news for you. A lot religous icons would never get erected. Or should be torn down.

It is a demand that people forget what they have not yet forgiven. What are the owners of this property offering as their part of the compromise?

Some people will never forget or forgive. This is nothing new. Some humans hold a grudge against the wrong people as groups for their entire lives. My parents generation hated Communists, Japanese and Koreans. It's easy to keep up an US vs THEM hatred. Rightwing extremists love this kind of thing.

The project is for an Islamic neighborhood. I've previously posted about this. The WTC is dead center in that neighborhood.

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Michelle

I disagree but that's ok. In a multicultural society, "manners" is a nebulous concept. What is "good" manners for you or your region of the country or even part of the NYC may not be what is "good" manners for the WTC neighborhood. Which is largely islamic.

The project is for an Islamic neighborhood. I've previously posted about this. The WTC is dead center in that neighborhood.

I don't know where you get you information, but this is the general demographics of Battery Park City. I couldn't find anything on the religions of said people.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battery_Park_City

As of the 2000 census, there were 7,951 people residing in Battery Park City. The population density was 41,032 people per square mile (15,855/km²). The racial makeup of the neighborhood was 75% White, 17.93% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 2.97% African American, 0.06% Native American, 1.58% from other races, and 2.42% from two or more races. 5.32% of the population were Hispanic of any race. 27.7% of the population was foreign born, 51.8% came from Asia, 30.8% from Europe, 8.2% from Latin America and 9.2% from other (mostly Canada).

Today, about 10,000 people live in Battery Park City, most of whom are upper middle class and upper class (54.0% of households have incomes over $100,000). When fully built out, the neighborhood is projected to have 14,000 residents.[5]

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aquatus1

Ninjadude, you can converse with me once you apologize for your inferrence of bigotry.

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Siara

The project is for an Islamic neighborhood. I've previously posted about this. The WTC is dead center in that neighborhood.

I find the intent to create an Islamic neighborhood there offensive. I would find the intent to create a Christian or Jewish neighborhood there offensive too. Since when do we go out of our way to segregate our cities according to religion? If they don't want to be elbow to elbow with people of every race and religion, they shouldn't be living in New York. How does creating a special little Islamic neighborhood inside of the city signify their desire to become part of our country? To me it signifies that they don't want to deal with the rest of us.

It's inevitable that ethnic neighborhoods are going to spring up in a city and that's part of the charm of city life, but this kind of planned "okay from now on this part of the city is Islamic" really bothers me. Ethnic neighborhoods evolve over time.

I don't know where you get you information, but this is the general demographics of Battery Park City.

Well said, Michelle. The fact of the matter is that it's NOT an Islamic neighborhood at all. The claim that the neighborhood is Islamic is a polically correct falsehood probably generated by some pc extremists out to demonstrate their amazing cultural sensitivity. We should leave that neighborhood to develop naturally in the hands of the people who've lived there for decades. How insensitive to impose this politically correct abstraction on them. How would you like it if a bunch of people decided to impose an ethnicity on your neighborhood for political reasons? The fact that the neighborhood has been wounded and traumatized doesn't mean that it's been erased.

I disagree but that's ok. In a multicultural society, "manners" is a nebulous concept. What is "good" manners for you or your region of the country or even part of the NYC may not be what is "good" manners for the WTC neighborhood. Which is largely islamic.

Sorry but I REALLY disagree with this too. They don't own part of New York and they don't have a right to take it over culturally. What's good manners in Queens and Brooklyn is good manners in the WTC neighborhood. If they don't like American manners they shouldn't have moved to America. America already has a culture and people who move here should respect that.

Edited by Siara

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Leah G.

Why is it that we Americans always have to respect other peoples beliefs when they don't respect ours? We Americans do have a culture all our own. Granted it's a mix but it is ours and we respect each other when they respect us. So if they want to live within our culture they will have to respect us and everyones singular belief systems. And seeing as zelots from their religion flew airplanes in to the WTS they should respect the popular opinion of the area if not the entire United States of America!

H.

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Michelle

Compromise...

com·pro·mise   /ˈkɒmprəˌmaɪz/ Show Spelled [kom-pruh-mahyz] Show IPA noun, verb, -mised, -mis·ing.

–noun

1. a settlement of differences by mutual concessions; an agreement reached by adjustment of conflicting or opposing claims, principles, etc., by reciprocal modification of demands.

2. the result of such a settlement.

3. something intermediate between different things: The split-level is a compromise between a ranch house and a multistoried house.

4. an endangering, esp. of reputation; exposure to danger, suspicion, etc.: a compromise of one's integrity.

–verb (used with object)

5. to settle by a compromise.

6. to expose or make vulnerable to danger, suspicion, scandal, etc.; jeopardize: a military oversight that compromised the nation's defenses.

7. Obsolete .

a. to bind by bargain or agreement.

b. to bring to terms.

–verb (used without object)

8. to make a compromise or compromises: The conflicting parties agreed to compromise.

9. to make a dishonorable or shameful concession: He is too honorable to compromise with his principles.

What are the people that want to build this particular mosque compromising?

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ninjadude

Ninjadude, you can converse with me once you apologize for your inferrence of bigotry.

eh? what in the world are you on about?

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ninjadude

I find the intent to create an Islamic neighborhood there offensive. I would find the intent to create a Christian or Jewish neighborhood there offensive too. Since when do we go out of our way to segregate our cities according to religion?

who would be doing this?

If they don't want to be elbow to elbow with people of every race and religion, they shouldn't be living in New York. How does creating a special little Islamic neighborhood inside of the city signify their desire to become part of our country? To me it signifies that they don't want to deal with the rest of us.

who would be doing this? It's been there for ages. "They" are not "creating" anything other than a community center and additional mosque. There are two others in the area as well. These things already exist. You are somehow creating a dichotomy that does not exist.

It's inevitable that ethnic neighborhoods are going to spring up in a city and that's part of the charm of city life, but this kind of planned "okay from now on this part of the city is Islamic" really bothers me. Ethnic neighborhoods evolve over time.

this islamic one has done exactly that.

How would you like it if a bunch of people decided to impose an ethnicity on your neighborhood for political reasons? The fact that the neighborhood has been wounded and traumatized doesn't mean that it's been erased.

you mean by all those from "outside" this neighborhood trying to impose their definition of what it should be? Certainly the islamic neighborhood itself already exists and is vibrant.

They don't own part of New York and they don't have a right to take it over culturally.

certainly they do. It happens in ethnic neighborhoods in all large cities.

What's good manners in Queens and Brooklyn is good manners in the WTC neighborhood.

If it were, we would not be having this conversation in the first place. Manners are different in different places. Even within the US and within cities. This is not a controversial subject.

You seem to think that Islamic people just suddenly decided to move to NYC and take it over. Nothing could be further from the truth. Americans simply like to ignore immigrants and their history. Islamics have been here for centuries. Have neighborhoods. And are a vibrant part of our society.

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ninjadude

Why is it that we Americans always have to respect other peoples beliefs when they don't respect ours? We Americans do have a culture all our own. Granted it's a mix but it is ours and we respect each other when they respect us.

Because our society has tremendous safegaurds for minorities and minority beliefs and opinion. And you've answered your own question. Our culture is a mix. A mix of immigrant cultures.

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ninjadude

Compromise...

What are the people that want to build this particular mosque compromising?

here it is again.

Cordoba House is a Muslim-led project which will build a world-class facility that promotes tolerance, reflecting the rich diversity of New York City. The center will be community-driven, serving as a platform for inter-community gatherings and cooperation at all levels, providing a space for all New Yorkers to enjoy.

This proposed project is about promoting integration, tolerance of difference and community cohesion through arts and culture. Cordoba House will provide a place where individuals, regardless of their backgrounds, will find a center of learning, art and culture; and most importantly, a center guided by Islamic values in their truest form - compassion, generosity, and respect for all.

The site will contain tremendous amounts of resources that otherwise would not exist in Lower Manhattan; a 500-seat auditorium, swimming pool, art exhibition spaces, bookstores, restaurants - all these services would form a cultural nexus for a region of New York City that, as it continues to grow, requires the sort of hub that Cordoba House will provide.

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ninjadude

You would have to be a pretty cold-hearted individual to call a grieving mother irrational or bigoted because she doesn't want her son's killers at the funeral. Regardless of whether the accusation is correct or not, it comes down to a question of manners, not politics.

I'm sorry but you're not seriously saying that those practicing Islam in America are a grieving mothers killers?! Because that's what you're implying. And the funeral happened in 2001. Now you'd have something, if for instance, AL QAEDA was building a mosque or headquarters near the WTC. But then, they are a illegal terriorist group. Islam is not. Shirley you're not saying American citizens who are in America and are muslim are terrorists? Because that would be wrong on so many levels. I would expect more from you.

Edited by ninjadude

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ninjadude

I don't know where you get you information, but this is the general demographics of Battery Park City. I couldn't find anything on the religions of said people.

http://en.wikipedia....ttery_Park_City

As of the 2000 census, there were 7,951 people residing in Battery Park City. The population density was 41,032 people per square mile (15,855/km²). The racial makeup of the neighborhood was 75% White, 17.93% Asian, 0.04% Pacific Islander, 2.97% African American, 0.06% Native American, 1.58% from other races, and 2.42% from two or more races. 5.32% of the population were Hispanic of any race. 27.7% of the population was foreign born, 51.8% came from Asia, 30.8% from Europe, 8.2% from Latin America and 9.2% from other (mostly Canada).

Today, about 10,000 people live in Battery Park City, most of whom are upper middle class and upper class (54.0% of households have incomes over $100,000). When fully built out, the neighborhood is projected to have 14,000 residents.[5]

what does race have to do with anything? All races can be muslim. It's a religion not a race. And maybe that's the problem. People think muslims are a race.

What does economic status have to do with anything? All levels of society can be muslim. Shirley you don't think only poor can be muslim. That would be wrong.

What does a single area in lower manhatten have to do with it? There are many areas in lower manhatten. Muslims have lived in NYC for centuries.

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DieChecker

here it is again.

Why isn't it a Muslim led Pan-Religous project that includes shrines to Christian, Jewish, Hindu and Other Religions, in addition to being a mosque? That would show tolerance more then a Muslims only club house.

I still think if they want to teach and embrace tolerance they could knock down a building a block or two further away. What is the worse that could happen. A taxi has to drive 2 more minutes to get there?

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DieChecker

Quick check on Google Maps shows that there is already a mosque three and a half blocks away from it now. Masjid Manhattan.

My personal opinion was posted in another thread. If we HAVE to have any religious buildings nearby, put them all in one but since that isn't likely to happen, let them build it.

Nibs

This is not a mosque and they openly say they are not a mosque. It is barely a place to meet.

http://www.masjidmanhattan.com/

post-26883-042737200 1281422164_thumb.jp

The nearest real Mosque is miles away according to google maps.

Edited by DieChecker

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