Who was the first Son of God?

[Lion6969]

Can you demonstrate to us all, why you believe that they (the angels) have no free will? Because this is not borne out in any of the religious traditions from ancient Sumeria, to christianity. In fact there is really only one religious belief that states this and that is Islam.

Yet even in Islam, the twist of the plot is that Shaitan, the one who refused to bow to man was in fact not an angel but a Djinn, as if that made any difference... All sentient beings, whether they be Spiritual or physical have free will and are accountable for their own actions. The angelic host is no exception, they do Gods will because they want to not because they have to, God is not the God of marionettes.

Sure, I take my opinion from the islamic perspective after studying most religions it's perspective made most sense rationally and logically.

So it says that angels are created from light, man from clay (earth) and the djinn of smokeless fire (I.e true nature is a gaseous type abit like orbs etc and majority of them can shapeshift).

Adam was created by gods own hands and blew the spirit in to Adam. Angels are the only creation out of the 3 which have no freewill. The djinn free willed already occupied earth and they can possess harm and even mate with humans. The angels prostrated to Adam whom god said was his most superior creation, they did but their leader was shaitan (iblees) a freewilled djinn who due to his previous good nature was appointed as their leader and as a result dwelt in heaven. He was also told to prostrate but rejected in jealousy, vanity and ignorance. He claimed to superior and made of fire...... So god threw him out, and the rest is history. What you call fallen angel is a djinn sent back to earth. They mate and have off spring, they posses humans out of whom the majority are women and the primary cause is attraction of the djinn to women. As I said these are matters of faith and opinion.

Now there are several miss-conceptions about the jinn, the main one is the belief that all jinn’s are demons and devils, this is not true, jinn’s are just like humans, there are good and bad, and the jinn have the very bad which we call demons and the devil.

 

[Lion6969]

Original sin contradicts the bible, it didn't exist in christian thought until around the 3rd century, before this, christians believed simply that Jesus Christ was the intermediary between man and God and that his sacrifice was a personal substitution for our personal sin. In effect he replaced the egocentric spirit which inhabits us all with Gods spirit making us new men.

The concept of original sin holds that we not only inherit the weakness and nature of fallen Adam, and the natural tendency and inevitable inclination to follow his pathway of sin, but that we are also personally condemned and are personally guilty for Adam's sin, in addition to our own sins.

This is not biblical.

Sure thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you dont believe in OS.

What I can't understand is the biblical gods jealousy, anger and regretfulness about making mankind. He then wipes them out bar few of them gives them a new start but because he has made us fallible he had to incarnate himself then sacrifice himself all in order to forgive us when he made us like this and fallible. This is so illogical to me.

[Lion6969]

Original sin contradicts the bible, it didn't exist in christian thought until around the 3rd century, before this, christians believed simply that Jesus Christ was the intermediary between man and God and that his sacrifice was a personal substitution for our personal sin. In effect he replaced the egocentric spirit which inhabits us all with Gods spirit making us new men.

The concept of original sin holds that we not only inherit the weakness and nature of fallen Adam, and the natural tendency and inevitable inclination to follow his pathway of sin, but that we are also personally condemned and are personally guilty for Adam's sin, in addition to our own sins.

This is not biblical.

Sure thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you dont believe in OS.

What I can't understand is the biblical gods jealousy, anger and regretfulness about making mankind. He then wipes them out bar few of them gives them a new start but because he has made us fallible he had to incarnate himself then sacrifice himself all in order to forgive us when he made us like this and fallible. This is so illogical to me. In addition the god in the bible is a man god not a true god. He has all attributes of ourselves.

[SlimJim22]

For me angels are created for a purpose like all creation, we all serve a purpose. They do not have free will and serve god only. They are incapable of going against god unlike us and the djinn.

You say that god is everything and everywhere and this is simply pantheism. Exactly what Hinduism is rooted in, although the scripture contradict it. But Hindu theologians say that god is everything, everywhere etc. So I ask is god inthe waste we produce, present inthe sewers, is he inthe creepy crawlers we step on by accident! Is he present in all the nasty places as well as the good ones. So is it legitimate to worship a tree or animal or even some dung since god is everywhere and in everything. A true god need not be in these places this does not befit a true god. You see god is the creator and the creator never becomes the creation or vica versa.

The clearest way I can put it is that God is not matter. What you are talking about is all the base substances, these contain zero or little spirit because they are dead. They still form the cycle of everything so you do raise a good point. My interpretation of Satan is that rather than being evil he is the representation of base matter. I have mentioned before that it is matter and sins of the flesh where sin arises. The oposite of sin and matter is love and the spirit. I can see what you are getting at but it is quite narrow in it's perspective. You cannot quantify God.

It is a form of pantheism but again it is not as simple as that. Quantum science has observed various paradoxes that support the eastrn view in many ways. I can recommend some books, if you are interested PM me. Outside of CERN there is apparently a statue of Shiva doing the cosmic dance abd it turns out the whole philosophy is resolvable with quantum physics. I find this highly significant but i have an appreciation for all religions, I just do not take them literally but try and look for the deeper messages. Of course this is done through my own interpretations so may be utterly false but I am still learning what there is to believe.

What element is your God connected with? You mentioned Jinn and smokeless fire and angels as light. There may be merit to this part but I find ancient mythologies complex but really interesting. For example you were talking with Jor-El about the nature of the OT God. As judaism is partially based on the sumerian myths I think it is important to get the idea of who these gods were. Basically, Enki was the god of water and Enlil of the sky. For them the water was what created life and it was the sky in the form of weather that told you how the gods felt about you. This is where the idea of a punishing god came from imo. However, my view becomes far more complex moving into the period of Abraham as was evident at the start of this thread. I have not been diswayed from this view as of yet.

The complexity, the mystery and the drama present in all world myth and religions are a condition of what is being expressed. They are all giving a perspective on the truth but tell different parts of the story. All being said there is just so much perfection in the world that I cannot deny that something is responsible for this order I only struggle to think of God as an external entity. You can call it pantheism but panentheism may be closer to my view on angels and the such. Yes they are light as they exist on a higher frequency of matter to the point that they are not matter. However, I don't think they get like a list of orders from God and go and fulfill them, they are being tested like we are from my perspective because God is the ultimate source of everything and far removed from us by a uncertain number of higher dimensions.

[Jor-el]

Sure thanks for the clarification. I'm glad you dont believe in OS.

What I can't understand is the biblical gods jealousy, anger and regretfulness about making mankind. He then wipes them out bar few of them gives them a new start but because he has made us fallible he had to incarnate himself then sacrifice himself all in order to forgive us when he made us like this and fallible. This is so illogical to me. In addition the god in the bible is a man god not a true god. He has all attributes of ourselves.

His jealousy and anger derives from the simple fact that people prefer to enslave themselves to members of his creation rather than worshipping him in the freedom he gives to us all. If he truly regretted making mankind he would have wiped us all out without exception, the regret is more an expression of sadness. The fact that he left a few of us alive to make a new start, indicates faith and hope in us, that we will eventually find our way.

Remember, he didn't create us with these fallible defects, they are a consequence of our fall from his grace. As some say, we became creatures of flesh instead of creatures of flesh and light. We lost something in the fall from grace.

The sacrifice is a recurring theme throughout the entire Old Testament. It is the indication of what God did even after we fell. He killed an animal to clothe us and we became the direct cause of God having to kill a living thing for the 1st time. It is not that death did not already exist, but it was the 1st time that God killed an animal allowing us to survive and be clothed.

Animal sacrifice is a rememberance of this event and it served as a conduit to life. The spilling of the blood of an animal became the figure by which God forgave us and allowed us to live. It became the form inwhich God showed mercy to us.

The supreme extension of this metaphor is that a man became the sacrifice, not for the forgiveness of only one mans sins, but of that of the whole human race.

Since all men are sinners, no man could serve as the metaphor, since by Gods own words, the sacrifice had to be without blemish. It had to be a pure sacrifice. That is why only animals without defects were sacrificed.

It is why Jesus, who had no sin in him, who had never sinned, was the only pure sacrifice available in all of human history, that would allow mankind as a whole to be reconciled to God. It also put an end to animal sacrifice since that too was only meant to remind man of his actions.

Those are my words but you can read here for a better and more detailed view of what I mean... The lamb of God

[Jor-el]

Sure, I take my opinion from the islamic perspective after studying most religions it's perspective made most sense rationally and logically.

So it says that angels are created from light, man from clay (earth) and the djinn of smokeless fire (I.e true nature is a gaseous type abit like orbs etc and majority of them can shapeshift).

Adam was created by gods own hands and blew the spirit in to Adam. Angels are the only creation out of the 3 which have no freewill. The djinn free willed already occupied earth and they can possess harm and even mate with humans. The angels prostrated to Adam whom god said was his most superior creation, they did but their leader was shaitan (iblees) a freewilled djinn who due to his previous good nature was appointed as their leader and as a result dwelt in heaven. He was also told to prostrate but rejected in jealousy, vanity and ignorance. He claimed to superior and made of fire...... So god threw him out, and the rest is history. What you call fallen angel is a djinn sent back to earth. They mate and have off spring, they posses humans out of whom the majority are women and the primary cause is attraction of the djinn to women. As I said these are matters of faith and opinion.

Now there are several miss-conceptions about the jinn, the main one is the belief that all jinn’s are demons and devils, this is not true, jinn’s are just like humans, there are good and bad, and the jinn have the very bad which we call demons and the devil.

Ok let's translate into the familiar conetxt.... Angels do not have free will and the "bene Elohim" (sons of God) created by God would then be the djinn. They are shape changers and we have statues of these ancient Gods in human form but with clear and evident animal parts for example... That would make Satan a son of God and not an angel.

Essentially nothing has changed in any of the perspectives we've discussed on this thread.

[SlimJim22]

Here is an excerpt from Exodus that is one of the reasons I consider Set as a possible candidate for Yahweh beyond being the enemy of Osiris/Nimrod.

25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

25:3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,

25:4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,

25:5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,

25:6 Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,

25:7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.

25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

25:10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.

25:11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.

25:12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/25.html

This sounds like how I imagine a pagan temple might be set out. This is where the communication with Yahweh took place in the wilderness isn't it? The mention of goat hair has a hint of Pan about it and he is the nature deity and symbol of lust. Was some sort of tantric conquering of lust and kundalani experience taking place. Altering the states of consciousness to make communication stronger. Kids were sacrificed to Dionysus because of the connection to orgiastic rites so the use of lamb is symbolic of the purity. I think it makes sense to think of them as performing a specific type of shamanism and overcoming duaity. I wish I could put it in better terminology but simplest terms is that God = Spirit = Nature. So, the Son of God should be at one with nature to be one with God.

The environmental crisis is a spiritual crisis because the continued degradation of the earth threatens the fundamental goods and values that bind human beings to one another and all other forms of life. At a very deep level we no longer feel our common kinship with other beings as the basis for earth-friendly action and commitment. We have lost that primordial sense of belonging to a whole web of life that our kind and otherkind need for daily sustenance.

But in saying that the earth crisis is a spiritual crisis I also mean that the problem is explicitly a religious problem in the sense that the promulgation of particular theological teachings has lead to the ravaging of earth communities -- for example, the idea in the Genesis creation story that God, a heavenly being far removed from our planet, created human beings as God's viceregents to exercise "dominion" over the earth. If God has given the earth to us as our private possession, then why not do with it what we want to? Lynn White, in a now famous essay, writes that Western Christianity's attack on paganism effectively stripped the natural world of any spiritual meaning by replacing the belief that the Sacred is in rivers and trees with the doctrine that God is a disembodied Spirit whose true residence is in heaven, not on earth.(2) "By destroying pagan animism, Christianity made it possible to exploit nature in a mood of indifference to the feelings of natural objects."(3) I believe White is partially accurate in his analysis. The impact of Christianity's antipagan teachings has tended to empty the biosphere of any sense of God's presence in natural things. God is now pictured as a sky-God with little if any connection to natural processes. In turn, human beings, as bearers of God's image, are regarded essentially as "souls" taking up temporary residence in their earthly bodies: we are all transient denizens of a material world from which we will be delivered in death in order to return to the disembodied Source from which we have originated. Along the way, these teachings imply or state outright that God is against nature, with the result that they inculcate in human beings an absence of family feeling for other biotic communities. In this sense, therefore, the ecological crisis is fundamentally a spiritual crisis because certain Christian teachings have blunted our ability to experience co-belonging with other lifeforms, rendering us unwilling to alter our self-destructive course and plot a new path toward sustainable living.

I have said that ecocide is a spiritual disease. Like alcoholism -- another disease, as Carl Jung said, that is essentially spiritual in nature(4) -- ecocide is rooted in addictive behaviors that already have and will continue to degrade health and well being. The "spiritual" origins of ecocide are apparent in our head-long rush to disaster; as in the case of the alcoholic, we know we are destroying our lives but we can no longer stop ourselves from doing so.

http://www.crosscurrents.org/wallacef00.htm

I think that there is a test where we have to choose between the disembodied God and the God within nature and within ourselves. I am not suggesting that we should worship Set as Yahweh but that there is a mystery surrounding the exact identity of El at the time of Jesus. The only relevant symbolism being the ass is admitedly pretty weak. Apparently it is mentioned 80 or 90 times in the Bible which is not that significant but I think the connection of spirit with nature speaks for itself. Christianity would better be replaced by opporessive organized religions that place dogma above inner wisdom. It's only my opinion but I'd appreciate any criticisms.

http://users.netnitco.net/~legend01/goat.htm

Edited August 26, 2010 by SlimJim22

[Jor-el]

Here is an excerpt from Exodus that is one of the reasons I consider Set as a possible candidate for Yahweh beyond being the enemy of Osiris/Nimrod.

25:2 Speak unto the children of Israel, that they bring me an offering: of every man that giveth it willingly with his heart ye shall take my offering.

25:3 And this is the offering which ye shall take of them; gold, and silver, and brass,

25:4 And blue, and purple, and scarlet, and fine linen, and goats' hair,

25:5 And rams' skins dyed red, and badgers' skins, and shittim wood,

25:6 Oil for the light, spices for anointing oil, and for sweet incense,

25:7 Onyx stones, and stones to be set in the ephod, and in the breastplate.

25:8 And let them make me a sanctuary; that I may dwell among them.

25:9 According to all that I shew thee, after the pattern of the tabernacle, and the pattern of all the instruments thereof, even so shall ye make it.

25:10 And they shall make an ark of shittim wood: two cubits and a half shall be the length thereof, and a cubit and a half the breadth thereof, and a cubit and a half the height thereof.

25:11 And thou shalt overlay it with pure gold, within and without shalt thou overlay it, and shalt make upon it a crown of gold round about.

25:12 And thou shalt cast four rings of gold for it, and put them in the four corners thereof; and two rings shall be in the one side of it, and two rings in the other side of it.

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/ex/25.html

This sounds like how I imagine a pagan temple might be set out. This is where the communication with Yahweh took place in the wilderness isn't it? The mention of goat hair has a hint of Pan about it and he is the nature deity and symbol of lust. Was some sort of tantric conquering of lust and kundalani experience taking place. Altering the states of consciousness to make communication stronger. Kids were sacrificed to Dionysus because of the connection to orgiastic rites so the use of lamb is symbolic of the purity. I think it makes sense to think of them as performing a specific type of shamanism and overcoming duaity. I wish I could put it in better terminology but simplest terms is that God = Spirit = Nature. So, the Son of God should be at one with nature to be one with God.

The environmental crisis is a spiritual crisis because the continued degradation of the earth threatens the fundamental goods and values that bind human beings to one another and all other forms of life. At a very deep level we no longer feel our common kinship with other beings as the basis for earth-friendly action and commitment. We have lost that primordial sense of belonging to a whole web of life that our kind and otherkind need for daily sustenance.

But in saying that the earth crisis is a spiritual crisis I also mean that the problem is explicitly a religious problem in the sense that the promulgation of particular theological teachings has lead to the ravaging of earth communities -- for example, the idea in the Genesis creation story that God, a heavenly being far removed from our planet, created human beings as God's viceregents to exercise "dominion" over the earth. If God has given the earth to us as our private possession, then why not do with it what we want to? Lynn White, in a now famous essay, writes that Western Christianity's attack on paganism effectively stripped the natural world of any spiritual meaning by replacing the belief that the Sacred is in rivers and trees with the doctrine that God is a disembodied Spirit whose true residence is in heaven, not on earth.(2) "By destroying pagan animism, Christianity made it possible to exploit nature in a mood of indifference to the feelings of natural objects."(3) I believe White is partially accurate in his analysis. The impact of Christianity's antipagan teachings has tended to empty the biosphere of any sense of God's presence in natural things. God is now pictured as a sky-God with little if any connection to natural processes. In turn, human beings, as bearers of God's image, are regarded essentially as "souls" taking up temporary residence in their earthly bodies: we are all transient denizens of a material world from which we will be delivered in death in order to return to the disembodied Source from which we have originated. Along the way, these teachings imply or state outright that God is against nature, with the result that they inculcate in human beings an absence of family feeling for other biotic communities. In this sense, therefore, the ecological crisis is fundamentally a spiritual crisis because certain Christian teachings have blunted our ability to experience co-belonging with other lifeforms, rendering us unwilling to alter our self-destructive course and plot a new path toward sustainable living.

I have said that ecocide is a spiritual disease. Like alcoholism -- another disease, as Carl Jung said, that is essentially spiritual in nature(4) -- ecocide is rooted in addictive behaviors that already have and will continue to degrade health and well being. The "spiritual" origins of ecocide are apparent in our head-long rush to disaster; as in the case of the alcoholic, we know we are destroying our lives but we can no longer stop ourselves from doing so.

http://www.crosscurrents.org/wallacef00.htm

I think that there is a test where we have to choose between the disembodied God and the God within nature and within ourselves. I am not suggesting that we should worship Set as Yahweh but that there is a mystery surrounding the exact identity of El at the time of Jesus. The only relevant symbolism being the ass is admitedly pretty weak. Apparently it is mentioned 80 or 90 times in the Bible which is not that significant but I think the connection of spirit with nature speaks for itself. Christianity would better be replaced by opporessive organized religions that place dogma above inner wisdom. It's only my opinion but I'd appreciate any criticisms.

http://users.netnitco.net/~legend01/goat.htm

read this.... I remember at Seminary spending 6 months on this subject alone... See: Preparing for the Tabernacle

[Lion6969]

The clearest way I can put it is that God is not matter. What you are talking about is all the base substances, these contain zero or little spirit because they are dead. They still form the cycle of everything so you do raise a good point. My interpretation of Satan is that rather than being evil he is the representation of base matter. I have mentioned before that it is matter and sins of the flesh where sin arises. The oposite of sin and matter is love and the spirit. I can see what you are getting at but it is quite narrow in it's perspective. You cannot quantify God.

I understand something you refer to and agree, but I never said god was matter. You see time, space and matter came into being when the big bang happened. All came from a singularity almost equating to nothing. So the universe came from nothing and had a beginning. God is not apart of that beginning or form any matter of it. Why cause it came from nothing so as you said god is absolute alpha and omega. Thus his domain is outside of creation he is not governed by time or space to do so is illogical of a true god. He does not become his creation and vica versa. This is why I say god has power over everything not that he can do anything. A true god would not become his creation this would belie is true nature.

It is a form of pantheism but again it is not as simple as that. Quantum science has observed various paradoxes that support the eastrn view in many ways. I can recommend some books, if you are interested PM me. Outside of CERN there is apparently a statue of Shiva doing the cosmic dance abd it turns out the whole philosophy is resolvable with quantum physics. I find this highly significant but i have an appreciation for all religions, I just do not take them literally but try and look for the deeper messages. Of course this is done through my own interpretations so may be utterly false but I am still learning what there is to believe.

I appreciate your honesty and I will pm you about those books. Sound like a good read. The ancient Vedas have alot of wisdom in them and they also relate to many modern phenomena. To me all these religion carry the fundamental message of one supreme god. They all seem to be messages and guidance from the same source some for specific places and time, hence the similarities in tales and laws etc. The sumarians were probably sent messengers later elevated to Demi god status due to lack of understanding or unable to comprehend the truth.

What element is your God connected with? You mentioned Jinn and smokeless fire and angels as light. There may be merit to this part but I find ancient mythologies complex but really interesting. For example you were talking with Jor-El about the nature of the OT God. As judaism is partially based on the sumerian myths I think it is important to get the idea of who these gods were. Basically, Enki was the god of water and Enlil of the sky. For them the water was what created life and it was the sky in the form of weather that told you how the gods felt about you. This is where the idea of a punishing god came from imo. However, my view becomes far more complex moving into the period of Abraham as was evident at the start of this thread. I have not been diswayed from this view as of yet.

Again all religions from monotheism to paganism started with one god. The latter then added lesser Demi gods to partake duties that the one supreme god has power over too, but has delegated the role to a Demi god, thus evolving to worship of many gods, all be it with the knowledge that they are ruled by one supreme god, zues, brahma etc.

The complexity, the mystery and the drama present in all world myth and religions are a condition of what is being expressed. They are all giving a perspective on the truth but tell different parts of the story. All being said there is just so much perfection in the world that I cannot deny that something is responsible for this order I only struggle to think of God as an external entity. You can call it pantheism but panentheism may be closer to my view on angels and the such. Yes they are light as they exist on a higher frequency of matter to the point that they are not matter. However, I don't think they get like a list of orders from God and go and fulfill them, they are being tested like we are from my perspective because God is the ultimate source of everything and far removed from us by a uncertain number of higher dimensions.

The angels are light but not free willed and are delegated duties and spend most their time in praise of their lord and in total submission. Pantheism would logically mean that god is also in places we do not see fit for ourselves but fit for our creator, I differ from this because I believe the true nature of god is different unlike anything in creation, the moment you compare anything in creation to god, to me it's a false god.

I agree that most religion preach the same I believe the source is the same but that message has got list overtime and even corrupted.

[MARAB0D]

LOL, guys! That above was emotional to read! So, there is someone called "God", and there are the alleged creatures of this "God"... And these creatures do not want to admit, that this someone, called "God" exists - because they cannot see it! Here we are, some other creature, called, say, Godson, comes ahead and says "God exists". But no matter what he says, one still cannot see the actual God! Thus, God becomes a spirit, lurking around and trying not to be seen, a shy and stupid spirit, but what do we need one like that for? money talks and creature... walks!

Edited August 27, 2010 by MARAB0D

[Lion6969]

LOL, guys! That above was emotional to read! So, there is someone called "God", and there are the alleged creatures of this "God"... And these creatures do not want to admit, that this someone, called "God" exists - because they cannot see it! Here we are, some other creature, called, say, Godson, comes ahead and says "God exists". But no matter what he says, one still cannot see the actual God! Thus, God becomes a spirit, lurking around and trying not to be seen, a shy and stupid spirit, but what do we need one like that for? money talks and creature... walks!

Yes there is god and he is not called god that is the title we have given to him which describes to us what he is. He alot of names and does not lurk and hide within creation but he is outside of our time and space and has power over everything!

[JohnPeniel]

Jesus is the most well know Son of God and how many went before him?

Does the symbolism attributed to the archetype of the Son of God tell us anything?

Are the Daughters of God? If not why not?

What the heck are you reading?

[rapscallioness]

Wow. I have thoroughly enjoyed reading this thread, from beginning to end. So many tantalizing tangents. Ideas worthy of their own thread. I had to go back to the original OP to try and focus my thoughts.

So SlimJim, I caught the bit about the idea of Cain being the first son of god because of the idea that he was born of Enki and Eve. Through a woman's womb. However, I think I still have to say that Adam would be, technically, the first son of god. Even though he wasn't born out of a woman's body, he was still "mixed with the clay". He still came from an earthling mother, genetically.

That said, boy is the whole thing one strange, disjointed story. No matter how many times I read it, or look to different sources, I'm always left thinking, "What in the world is going on here?"

First off, Adam and Eve get thrown out of Eden, but apparently not that far out of Eden. Cain was the first one to really be thrown completely out of Eden. And he was scared of the other people out there that would kill him if they saw him. The other people? Tell the truth, as far as I can recall, the tellings of this story never explicitly say there were no other people on the earth. It simply states that god created Adam and Eve. So, I kind of assumed that they were the only ones, but the tellings seem to gloss over that whole idea. It's like they're saying, duh, yeah there are other people...but not like Adam and Eve!

There was something about those two that was different. Perhaps just a nod at the rise of the Homo Sapien Sapien? Or Cro Magnon? Were the hordes beyond Eden Neanderthals? And poor Adam and Eve. They obviously were still somewhere in Eden. The outskirts, perhaps. But they were still protected even though now they had to toil with the land and know the pain of childbirth.

Those two things tell me that before they were kicked out, they were given everything. No farming needed. And for Eve to not know the pain of childbirth. I guess Eve hadn't had Cain or Abel yet. But the way it's put makes it sound like knowing this pain is a direct result of the trespass and it is a punishment. So, what, were they not expected to reproduce before? Or was it an engineered thing, or c-section? That's weird. Of course, they were going to reproduce. Every creature on this planet reproduces, and yes it's painful. I don't understand that.

One could go all metaphysical and simply guess that Adam and Eve were representative of a level of consciousness that was once ideal. That existed just a notch or so above ours when all one had to do was think about something for it manifest. The powers of creation whether from land or giving "birth" were much smoother and quicker. Then we became more dense in consciousness and now we toil with the concept of manifesting anything.

But let's just start with what if the story means what it means.

Cain gets angry with Abel because he thinks God favors him, so he kills him. I don't understand why god rejected one over the other anyway. Since when does that happen? When making offerings to god. There was something in the Midrash, I believe, that alluded to the idea that Cain killed Abel over a woman. A pretty one of two twin sisters was set to marry Abel, and Cain wanted the prettier one..of the twins..geez. So they decided to let god decide who should have her by making sacrifices. God picked Abel....

I read a bit some time ago about the story of cain and abel being a tale of the first, or symbolic act of human sacrifice in order to appease the gods before great progress was made. Cain, cursed, or not, did go on to found civilizations. The idea of this piece written was that in the human psyche there is the inherent fear of progress. Like to do so would anger the gods and so they must make sacrifices to the gods to appease them. To get their blessings to proceed. A blood offering, or the gods would destroy them completely. (Maybe Nimrod didn't give the proper sacrifices before building the Tower of Babel?...that's another crazy story).

Heck, maybe Cain figured since god loved flesh and blood offerings so much, he'd do abel one better, and sacrifice him.

Whatever, but that's some really odd, direct interaction with god, isn't it? And not in the cool, I have a great personal relationship with the Lord, kind of way. More like this god is some foreman.

Here's some bits I really don't understand:

"1Adam knew his wife Eve intimately, and she conceived and gave birth to Cain. She said, "I have had a male child with the LORD's help."[34] 2Then she also gave birth to his brother Abel. Now Abel became a shepherd of a flock, but Cain cultivated the land. 3In the course of time Cain presented some of the land's produce as an offering to the LORD. 4And Abel also presented [an offering][35] — some of the firstborn of his flock and their fat portions.[36] The Lord had regard for Abel and his offering, 5but He did not have regard for Cain and his offering. Cain was furious, and he was downcast.[37] 6Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you furious? And why are you downcast?[38] 7If you do right, won't you be accepted? But if you do not do right, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must master it." 8Cain said to his brother Abel, "Let's go out to the field."[39] And while they were in the field, Cain attacked his brother Abel and killed him." What did he do wrong? He's a farmer, that's what he's going to offer.

– Genesis 4:1-8 (HCSB

The Septuagint has a different verse 7:

" Hast thou not sinned if thou hast brought it rightly, but not rightly divided it? be still, to thee shall be his submission, and thou shalt rule over him.[/i]" What? What is that supposed to mean?

And I don't see how Enki/Serpent tricked Eve. He didn't say, "Oh, god changed his mind. You can eat from it." He simply stated that no, you won't die from that. This god is jealous (as in possessive) and doesn't want your eyes to be opened. So they ate of the knowledge, took it in, and knew they were naked. Nakedness itself is a mark of slave/servant status. Did they come to know their place in the scheme of things?

I know this is a long, strange, disjointed post, but it's difficult to really articulate it all smoothly.

One last thing about Cain and Abel. So, Cain, son of this god, was just a farmer? And Abel a descendant of a very dynamic duo was a shepherd. Or, was Abel a Chieftain? His flock a tribe. And Cain did not cultivate the earth, but had dominion over it, or heir to that dominion. Supposedly he was the son of Enki..lord of the earth. After Cain killed Abel the lord told him he wouldn't be able to get anything from this "land" anymore. It was cursed now with the blood of Abel and would yield nothing. That could be the flock of Abel that would no longer do as Cain said..and perhaps even seek revenge. He had to go.

I will work to make my posts more focused in the future. I apologize, it all came spewing out.

[SolarPlexus]

nice posts slim.... key of our begginings is in sumeria

[BUG101687]

jesus christ die before foundation earth was laid

[scepticalbeliever]

The light bringer called Lucifer is the first son of god then came the arch angle Michel, and so on from their. The reason Lucifer rebelled is because he didn't want to bow before humans and declare his love for us because he loved god more than life it self. This is reason Lucifer is a fallen angel, or demon in another words.

Lucifer is the first son of god not Jesus, nor is it humans. God, I need to stop watching the history channel ahaha.

Lucifer is also known as Diana's brother in an old pagan text Vangelo delle Streghe

[Kati]

Hi,

Please see the next topic "The exploits of Ninurta".

He is Michael, and Lucifer is Marduc. But is not a god separation for identifying them, because 7 deities are son of the rising Sun. Check on the origin of the name.

And of course same as Nin-subur, shortly see on web-side "The Sumerian 'Orion mystery' and all the hymn of her/he in the tablets in National Museum in Iraq. And check everything from Shiva (He is the same deity). And please reed

'The Secret Doctrine'-Mme Helena Blavatsky, and you could find nearly all "key' for understanding the old secrets.

Ninurta was the leader of the 7. He was the main Manu/Logos, and we use this symbol today as well. He was the gatekeeper of Enlil. (The esoteric meaning: gatekeeper or stamp-keeper is your guardian angel, in this text Enlil was the Earth's deity, but Ninurta was in similar position at the globe chain. He came from Aldebaran. The chain is Pleiades, Hyads, Hesperides( today called TheLittle Bear), and on Earth (Atlantis or Hesperides). This is the unusual think of Earth's development (Hindu's myth).

Thanks for your interests and attention!

[Sundew]

jesus is the angel gabrel. adam is the angel micheal. lucifer is the angel of light. there were three tests giving to gods children, those who failed the first one became the animals and plants. those who failed the second became the demons. we are in the third test.

Angels are created beings. Jesus referred to Himself as the "I Am" a name also used by God the Father which states self-existence. Therefore Jesus was neither created nor an angel. Hebrews 2:7 states that, "You [God] made them [man] a little lower than the angels," therefore men and angels are two separate orders of created beings. There are several cults that adhere to your statements, most Christian denominations would consider them heretical. Also according to Genesis 1&2, animals and plants were created before human beings, not after. You are correct as to the name and created order of Lucifer, who is an angel, though now a fallen being, and whose original name meant "Light Bearer." We are not told in Scripture exactly when angels were created.