Without us this sacrilige cannot be built.

[Agent X]

Do the research PI.

For example, Christians are protesting a new cultural center in

Tennessee, and in other states.

Sometimes the truth really is the truth.

This thing is spreading beyond the NYC mosque with much of the protests being led by Christian groups.

My link

Kentucky:

My link

Other places:

My link

California:

California Mosque Protest: Protesters Call for "No More Mosques in America"

My link

Pat Robertson sues:

My link

So you see, this NYC Mosque should be built. We need to get over this No more Muslims in America" crap.

Otherwise, we're right back in WW II.

Pat Robertson:

[Pseudo Intellectual]

You did, however, make a remark about what the majority want according to polls. I am the one that made a remark about how the will of the majority cannot be allowed to affect the rights of the minority. Now we both know what we each said. Thank you for playing, here is your years supply of rice-a-roni.

So I take it you have no proof that “the opposition is being driven by two primary groups of people : People who are blatantly bigoted and people who are looking to turn this into a political game for the sake of votes”, or that the “opposition is based on simply the word "Muslim"”?

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Do the research PI.

For example, Christians are protesting a new cultural center in

Tennessee, and in other states.

Sometimes the truth really is the truth.

This thing is spreading beyond the NYC mosque with much of the protests being led by Christian groups.

My link

Kentucky:

My link

Other places:

My link

California:

California Mosque Protest: Protesters Call for "No More Mosques in America"

My link

Pat Robertson sues:

My link

So you see, this NYC Mosque should be built. We need to get over this No more Muslims in America" crap.

Otherwise, we're right back in WW II.

Pat Robertson:

Who said anything about mosques in Tennessee? Not me.

And I know plenty of non-Christians who want to abolish Islam.

[Wookietim]

So I take it you have no proof that “the opposition is being driven by two primary groups of people : People who are blatantly bigoted and people who are looking to turn this into a political game for the sake of votes”, or that the “opposition is based on simply the word "Muslim"”?

1. If this building did not have the word "Muslim" in it's title the opposition would lack any reason for bigots to be attracted to it.

2. If this were not an election year, there would be no reason for this to have become a national issue.

Your screen name fits your intellectual level. Case closed.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

1. If this building did not have the word "Muslim" in it's title the opposition would lack any reason for bigots to be attracted to it.

2. If this were not an election year, there would be no reason for this to have become a national issue.

Your screen name fits your intellectual level. Case closed.

Do you have any proof that opponents of this mosque are driven by bigotry?

[Wookietim]

Do you have any proof that opponents of this mosque are driven by bigotry?

Did I say all opponents are driven by bigotry? And are you willing to say that bigotry has absolutely no part in it?

[Agent X]

Well, my point wasn't that it's primarily religious bigotry. It may have started out with some people who found it distasteful, but now the Christian right has picked it up and is running with it to protest Islam in America and is making it a national problem.

And at least for me I am very opposed to religious bigotry as well as bigotry period. I believe that rights should be for everyone, not just the popular people or the majority.

[Michelle]

Well, my point wasn't that it's primarily religious bigotry. It may have started out with some people who found it distasteful, but now the Christian right has picked it up and is running with it to protest Islam in America and is making it a national problem.

And at least for me I am very opposed to religious bigotry as well as bigotry period. I believe that rights should be for everyone, not just the popular people or the majority.

You know there are a lot of gays in New York. Don't you think they oppose a religion that still stones gays to death in other countries?

[Agent X]

So why aren't they protesting the Mosque?

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Did I say all opponents are driven by bigotry?

Let's see:

Let's be blunt here - the opposition is being driven by two primary groups of people : People who are blatantly bigoted and people who are looking to turn this into a political game for the sake of votes.

Let's face it - the opposition to this building is based on ignorance and fear.

If this were just called a "Community Center" and served the same exact function and had that same exact room for Muslim prayer, then I suspect that nobody would care about it. Let's face it - opposition is based on simply the word "Muslim"

So here is a question - if a Roman Catholic church was being built in that same location, would there be a public outcry? If the answer is "No", then we have to assume that the objection is based on opposition to religion rather than any other criteria.

Yes, you did.

And are you willing to say that bigotry has absolutely no part in it?

I'm sure there are anti-Muslim bigots who oppose “Park51.” Just as there are Muslim supremacist bigots who support it.

the Christian right has picked it up and is running with it to protest Islam in America and is making it a national problem.

So? The "Christian right" opposing the place doesn't all or most people who oppose it are part of the "Christian right." Unless you're claiming that 70% of Americans are part of the "Christian right"?

[Michelle]

So why aren't they protesting the Mosque?

Do you know they aren't by voting in polls?

[Agent X]

Show me the voting record of those polls.

[Michelle]

Show me the voting record of those polls.

Those questions aren't asked in the polls, so there is no way of knowing if it is just the Christian right that are voting against it...which some people are maintaining.

[Agent X]

No, it's not just the Christian right protesting, and it didn't begin with them, but they did pick up the fumble and are running with it.

It's up to us to mine the field and arm the robots with chain guns to prevent them from getting a home run and let the Mosque be built.

[Michelle]

No, it's not just the Christian right protesting, and it didn't begin with them, but they did pick up the fumble and are running with it.

Thank you...I was just trying to get it across that other people may have their own reasons for not wanting this built, other than the analogy that Aquatus so eloquently put forward in another thread.

[The Silver Thong]

Islam is a religion that is very easily hijacked by radicals and there aggressive nature often silences those that may oppose such views. In that Islam is a scary religion in that if it infiltrates a government to a point the moderates will not speak out in fear of reprisal. It's a religion or movement that must be watched closely as there is a definite agenda to what it demands/desires.

If Obama would have kept his yap shut this would haven't received the attention it's getting. The radicals are loving just how much this is upsetting America. Let them build it and welcome it. Those opposed are exposing there fear and we all know what fear does. It creates dissension and guess what, government intervention. I don't think you guys down there want that.

[acidhead]

'once it's in your backyard.. than you freak out..'

[Agent X]

Thank you...I was just trying to get it across that other people may have their own reasons for not wanting this built, other than the analogy that Aquatus so eloquently put forward in another thread.

And I agree with it.

If you'd read my links though and looked at the you tube video, you'll see that this is no longer just limited to NYC and is slowly spreading across the Nation.

[venqax]

And I agree with it.

If you'd read my links though and looked at the you tube video, you'll see that this is no longer just limited to NYC and is slowly spreading across the Nation.

Of course it is not just a NYC issue. Was Pearl Harbor just a Honalulu issue? The only difference is that it took the rest of the country a while to become aware of it-- thanks to the fantastic mainstream media who for so long figured too much public information might be bad for Muslimes (God forbid we have govt censorship). And in NYC are most of the people who experienced 9/11 in a direct and personal manner. I'm thousands of miles from GZ and people here are extremely offended and upset about it.

Should they protest at the local mosque? Not easy to answer. While the local mosque had nothing to do with 9/11, there is a logic to focusing protest there. The abortion folks don't hesitate to protest at local Catholic churches, tho they have nothing to do with the Vatican's positions. At least some of the anger is directed at the Muslim community who are refusing to alter these plans volunarily or demonstrate any sensitivity to 9/11 outrage.

[Agent X]

Not easy to answer. While the local mosque had nothing to do with 9/11, there is a logic to focusing protest there.

So irrational fear is logical?

At least some of the anger is directed at the Muslim community who are refusing to alter these plans voluntarily or demonstrate any sensitivity to 9/11 outrage.

Right, because no Muslims lost their family during 911. Not a single one. And this was an attack against all Americans everywhere so we must oppose all new Muslim buildings and businesses everywhere. Building a new Mosque or business anywhere is just insensitive to all Americans everywhere. What a great excuse.

Well Why not stop there? Let's just go the whole way and score a touchdown and put all Muslims in those FEMA concentration camps for their own safety until this anti-Muslim furor dies down oh say fifty to a hundred years from now.

After all, they're only Muslims and all muslims everywhere are potential terrorists.

How collective.

Edited August 21, 2010 by Agent X

[trancelikestate]

I don't think any religious structures should be built, that would be a waste. if anything someone should build something more symbolic to the event which occurred there such as a skyscraper which would aim at being one of if not the worlds tallest, theres a f you to those who took down the world trade center buildings

[ShadowSot]

I don't think any religious structures should be built, that would be a waste. if anything someone should build something more symbolic to the event which occurred there such as a skyscraper which would aim at being one of if not the worlds tallest, theres a f you to those who took down the world trade center buildings

This isn't being built at the site, at the site is being built the Freedom towers.

It is near the site, yes.

So are other religious temples, some strip clubs, fast food restaurants, and a number of other miscellaneous buildings.

[aquatus1]

So irrational fear is logical?

What is so irrational about it? They are seeing what they perceive to be a danger, they are engaging in peaceful protest, they are not causing physical harm, property damage, or threatening lives. They are focusing their efforts on the subject that they fear. That is perfectly logical. Whether it is correct or not is an entirely different matter, and frankly, it is one that rarely has much signifigance to the person who is afraid.

Right, because no Muslims lost their family during 911. Not a single one.

Irrelevant. Emotional, true, but irrelevant nonetheless.

And this was an attack against all Americans everywhere so we must oppose all new Muslim buildings and businesses everywhere. Building a new Mosque or business anywhere is just insensitive to all Americans everywhere. What a great excuse.

It wasn't before. Unfortunately, due largely to the people who, instead of seeing this as a simpe issue of manners regarding a single mosque in a single neighborhood, decided that this had to be a religious, or a political, or a constitutional issue that had to be broadcast around the country. By making a mountain out of a molehill, they made all the people who were otherwise indifferent about the matter suddenly realize that if they didn't join in protest against, their silence would be taken as compliance.

Well Why not stop there? Let's just go the whole way and score a touchdown and put all Muslims in those FEMA concentration camps for their own safety until this anti-Muslim furor dies down oh say fifty to a hundred years from now.

It should have stopped at the permits board. Instead, it was decided that this should become a national issue. You reap what you sow.

After all, they're only Muslims and all muslims everywhere are potential terrorists.

The horrible thing about politics is that there is no gray area allowed. By turning this into a political issue, one is forced to make people choose sides. This leads to such tactics as the above, that of trying to shame people into joining a side they don't support because, if they don't, they get branded as racists or bigots.

How collective.

You really think that your side is different from the other side?

Yes, it is very collective.

[Agent X]

Irrelevant. Emotional, true, but irrelevant nonetheless.

This whole thing is an emotional issue. It is entirely emotions that is driving the fear.

There is only one way to get over this, and that is to actually get to know your neighbor rather than listen to rumors and innuendo. Unfortunately humans would rather take the easy route and listen toirrational rumors and innuendos rather than the actual truth.

It should have stopped at the permits board. Instead, it was decided that this should become a national issue. You reap what you sow.

It should've remained at the local level, there really should've been discussion over it so a rational decision made by cooler heads could perhaps come to a compromise that would benefit everybody. But too many people are actually getting hung up on terminology rather than actually listening to cooler heads.

You really think that your side is different from the other side?

When stupid tactics such as the race card (Islamophobia!) it isn't, which at least for me was a turn off to supporting the people who supported Mosque.

The rather unfortunate thing though that sometimes bigotry and prejudice drive it on both sides, and I believe this is one of those times. Would it really be such a national issue if it were Christians?

And I fully believe it is truly bigotry that is driving people to oppose the center from being built using "manners" as a smoke screen.

This thing is spreading across the nation.

For New York it should've been a local issue. Instead, stupid idiots took it and ran with it and are now using the issue to protest any new Muslims center being built in other parts of the nation.

When will it stop?

Unfortunately, I don't think it'll stop. And at least for me, I'm hoping President Obama will give a definite stance on the issue, and stop this thing from getting worse. These kinds of things always get worse before it gets better, and he really needs to address the issue instead of being noncommittal.

It's even entirely possible that if he didn't waffle like he did this stuff wouldn't be spreading across the nation.

It seems that some things never change. We might as well kept the Japanese in concentrations camps.

Muslims are Americans too, and the law and civil rights must apply to everybody equally, or it ceases becoming law and civil rights and instead becomes special privileges and double standards. Common courtesy is not just a one way street. Or at least it shouldn't be a one way street.

Now should the law be used to support popular opinion only.

And those things I will never support, regardless what my personal hang ups might be.

And Americans need to get over 911 and get on with their lives.

[ninjadude]

It should have stopped at the permits board.

As I understand it, the permits board and historic building commision both had no problem with the project. So the only pretense for objection of "manners" didn't work. It was a local issue handled by local folks who apparently didn't give one whit to your issue of "manners". Then the religion fundies and conservamedia got word of it and created a whole industry related to making political and racist and religious hay out of it.