Old Europe

[jaylemurph]

Where is Jaylemurph to put me straight? Did dialects just evolve into separate languages over millenia or what?

That's pretty much it. There are regular sound changes that we can track (and sometimes use for some kinds of relative dating), and there are always random language changes, but dialect do change into different languages over time. Usually on a shorter timeframe, though.

As cormac points out, PIE is a reconstructed language, and we don't know too much about it, like where it or its speakers ultimately come from or what they were speaking before. There just isn't enough data to say. We do know that (at least when speaking about whole language families), we can't really usefully talk about their relationships with each other. This is especially true because there just isn't a lot of research done on non-IE languages. That's changing, but the field of linguistics is dominated by IE-oriented studies.

For what it's worth, there are huge syntactical difference between the language super-families that means that they're not related (especially Afro-Asiatic and IE), so it's highly unlikely IE evolved out of AA. There is a theory that each one of the language super-families can be traced back to a different origin of speech, so that different people started talking at different times and there are no links at all between families. It's not something I regard as being true or useful, though.

--Jaylemurph

[SlimJim22]

Cheers Jay I get it. However, the state of prehistory is still as dumfounding as ever.

You see we have been making artefacts from stone for 1.5million years, well our ancestors at least.

http://www.indiana.edu/~origins/X-PDF/Semaw2000.pdf

But from about 50,000BP the level of artwork improves dramatically. What has survived from this period is largely in Europe but that does not mean it is the only place where they were found. They were just in places with good archeology and a favourable cliamte for preservation.

http://www.visual-arts-cork.com/prehistoric/oldest-art-top-50.htm

Near where I grew up is the location of the Red Lady of Paviland dated to 30,000BP or so. There is controversey to a degree of the ethnicity of said individual.

http://www.phylogenetic-memory.uzh.ch/team/sommer/publications/reviews/Nexus_Book_review_Bones_and_Ochre.pdf

My point is that the phylogical make up of ancient europeans is commonly misunderstood. I am in the process of reading the Alexseev lectures, which I hope can shed some light. I would of course value your opinions on this particualr area.

Who were the makers of the artwork of Old Europe in terms of their anthropology or whatever? Who were all these people who made such journeys and may have practised shamanism and how did they relate to each other?

I know these are hard questions and I do not expect answers but my thinking is that there was some continuity at various points, which led to new languages like PIE evolving out of another language family through some kind of separation. I understand PIE is a reconstructed language but there is a need to provide some sort of context to indo-european languages and it seems reasonable that it gradually evolved out of possibly two language families and a varying dialect. Hopefully you can see what I am getting at a bit better.

[TheSearcher]

I agree with Abe. I was going to say "insect infestation" and "trash build up" before I even read his post. Some Algonquians had a similar practice and set fire to entire areas before moving to their next seasonal villages.

Lapiche

that would explain the matter quite easily,indeed, but to be honest, I'd expect it to be more frequent than every 60 years, to be honest. What was the frequency with which the Algonquians burned their villages? More or less than 60 years?

[Piney]

that would explain the matter quite easily,indeed, but to be honest, I'd expect it to be more frequent than every 60 years, to be honest. What was the frequency with which the Algonquians burned their villages? More or less than 60 years?

They did it annually to maintain a "open parkland" environment for large grazing animals such as Elk and Eastern Bison and open spaces for small scale horticulture.

Lapiche

[TheSearcher]

They did it annually to maintain a "open parkland" environment for large grazing animals such as Elk and Eastern Bison and open spaces for small scale horticulture.

Lapiche

See why I think doing it every 60 years is strange? It doesn't add up somehow.

[Piney]

See why I think doing it every 60 years is strange? It doesn't add up somehow.

Some type of "renewal" ceremony? When the last member of a generation die, they burn and rebuild? The timing seems right if the burning averaged between 60 and 80 years.

Lapiche

[TheSearcher]

Some type of "renewal" ceremony? When the last member of a generation die, they burn and rebuild? The timing seems right if the burning averaged between 60 and 80 years.

Lapiche

That would actually make more sense, than the burning for bug purposes. Good thinking that.

[Piney]

That would actually make more sense, than the burning for bug purposes. Good thinking that.

I thought about the timespan involved and lifespans at the time and it just hit me.

Lapiche