U.S. Media Kills Story that Iraqi PM Executed 6 Pr

[Novo]

U.S. Media Kills Story that Iraqi PM Executed 6 Prisoners

by Khalid Hasan

Daily Times (Pakistan)

July 19, 2004

WASHINGTON: The US media has surprisingly failed to pick up the shocking disclosure by Sydney Morning Herald, Australia’s leading newspaper, that the Iraqi Prime Minister Iyad Allawi personally executed six suspected insurgents in a Baghdad police station.

The story by award-winning Australian journalist Paul McGeough said that the prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, lined up against a courtyard wall and shot by the Iraqi PM. Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents. Two people allege they witnessed the killings and there are also claims the Iraqi interior minister and four American men were present.

An Australian television channel interviewed the reporter who is in Iraq telling him that the Allawi family had denied the story. He replied, “Well it’s a very contentious issue. What you have is two very solid eyewitness accounts. Each witness is not aware that the other spoke.”

The Australian journalist said, “Well, I’ll take you through what the two witnesses said to give you the full chronology as I understand it. There was a surprise visit at about 10:30am to the police center. The PM talked to policemen and then toured the complex. They came to a courtyard where six, sorry seven prisoners were lined up against a wall. They were blindfolded, they were described to me as an Iraqi colloquialism for the fundamentalist foreign fighters who came to Baghdad. They have that classic look that you see with many of the Osama Bin Laden associates of the scraggly beard and the very short hair and they were a sort of ... took place in front of them as they were up against this wall was an exchange between the interior minister and Dr Allawi, saying that he felt like killing them on the spot.

The interior minister expressed the wish that he would like to kill all these men on the spot. The PM is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death. At that point, he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven. Six of them died, the seventh, according to one witness, was wounded in the chest. On the incident date, the correspondent said, “It happened on or around the weekend of June 19/20 — three weeks after Dr Allawi was named PM and one week before the handover.”

[Fluffybunny]

I see he has slid into his position as a leader of Iraq rather effortlessly...I am glad they choose so well. Lets here if for the new Iraqi Democracy, it has started with a bang. Actually that should be; started with a Bang, bang, bang, bang, bang...well you get the idea.

That is why the US put so much effort into a good interview process; They want to know what kind of results they are going to get out of their selections...what is your education? What kind of experience do you have? What torture techniques do you like and why?

Of course the younger folks here may not recall that the US helped to get Saddam in power in the early 60's, and we all know how that turned out. We seem to have a spotty record of such things, I don't know why we keep trying.

Edited July 20, 2004 by fluffybunny

[Seraphina]

We've already heard this story over here...I've heard it's actually rubbish...the new PM was elsewhere at the time, and has about fifty witnesses placing him there. Although don't quote me on it, I only heard about it in passing.

[alis]

i couldnt have said it better myself fluffybunny. im really glad to see that not all americans think their government are faultless in the events occuring in the middle east. Iran doesnt like the USA government, they havent forgotton how america supplied arms to Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war or how Saddam was appointed to power either.

you obviously have researched the subject, and i really admire that you say that about your own government. RESPECT!!!

[Fluffybunny]

According to the paper, Iraq's Human Rights Minister, Bakhtiar Amin is going to look into the matter further to see what kind of truth there is. We will have to see what turns up...

Here is a link to the article; you have to register, but it is free.

Link

They do have a nifty picture of the accused PM holding his hand out like the shape of a gun...interesting choice...

Edited July 19, 2004 by fluffybunny

[Talon]

We've already heard this story over here...I've heard it's actually rubbish...the new PM was elsewhere at the time, and has about fifty witnesses placing him there. Although don't quote me on it, I only heard about it in passing.

No, your right, Scottish newspapers were reporting about it on Saturday midday, about an hour latter they announced it was a hoax and didn't bother with it again.

One thing to say though, had this really happened; ...so what?

[alis]

so because it doesnt affect you, it doesnt matter.

[+joc]

Just another example of how the fluffmeister and so many others make their decisions based on sound bites and inuendo

[Blood Angel]

just another example of how joc blindly follows state run media...

[alis]

my hat goes off to you blood angel!!! RESPECT

[+joc]

just another example of how joc blindly follows state run media...

huh?

scratches head with butt-end of 357

[Blood Angel]

huh?

Yes this is exactly what goes through my mind when you say things like that.

Lets look at examples of politics and news:

A minor celebrity in England called Angus Deayton, admitted he took cocaine. This was on the front page of every newspaper in Britain. It ran for several weeks, and the man in question lost his job, and ruined his whole career. He took drugs...granted its not right, but its not bad as say a allegation of execution of 6 prisoners right?

A iraqi PRIME MINISTER, is allegated to have killed 6 prisoners, yet for some reason it doesn't even make front page news. Then it disappears from the newspapers altogether within a day. No more is said....

What does that tell you?

[bathory]

it tells me someone got it wrong

oops i meant to say, it tells me there is a great big Right wing conspiracy

Edited July 20, 2004 by bathory

[alis]

[Blood Angel]

No it tells you the media, has and always will be controlled by the government. The US puppet dic-sorry iraqi Prime minister can't be seen stained with the blood of men on his hands now can he? You see its the gullibility of people like you and joc, that keep state run media alive. Well done.

"We are grateful to The Washington Post, The New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the work is now much more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national auto determination practiced in past centuries."

David Rockefeller, founder of the Trilateral Commission, in an address to a meeting of The Trilateral Commission, in June, 1991.

"In March, 1915, the J.P. Morgan interests, the steel, shipbuilding, and powder interest, and their subsidiary organizations, got together 12 men high up in the newspaper world and employed them to select the most influential newspapers in the United States and sufficient number of them to control generally the policy of the daily press...They found it was only necessary to purchase the control of 25 of the greatest papers.

"An agreement was reached; the policy of the papers was bought, to be paid for by the month; an editor was furnished for each paper to properly supervise and edit information regarding the questions of preparedness, militarism, financial policies, and other things of national and international nature considered vital to the interests of the purchasers."

U.S. Congressman Oscar Callaway, 1917

hmmm...

[nightbird]

http://www.washtimes.com/upi-breaking/2004...05522-1300r.htm

July 16, 2004

Report: Allawi shot Iraqi suspects

Baghdad, Iraq, Jul. 16 (UPI) -- Iraqi Interim Prime Minister Iyad Allawi killed six suspected insurgents just days before he was handed power, the Sydney Morning Herald reports.

The report cites two witnesses to the killing who say Allawi fatally shot the prisoners, who were handcuffed, blindfolded and lined up against a wall in a courtyard near the maximum-security facility at al-Amariyah security centre near Baghdad. They quoted Allawi as saying the men "deserved worse than death" because each had killed some 50 Iraqis.

The newspaper added the killings were seen by about a dozen Iraqi police and four Americans from Allawi's security team. Interior Minister Falah al-Naqib, another alleged witness, is said to have congratulated Allawi.

The Herald report in its Saturday editions said both Allawi's office and Naqib denied the report.

The newspaper quoted witnesses as saying Allwai told those present he wanted to send a clear message to police on how to deal with insurgents.

Seven prisoners were brought out. Six were shot in the head and died. One was wounded, the report said.

[nightbird]

Allawi shot prisoners in cold blood: witnesses

By Paul McGeough in Baghdad

July 17, 2004

Iyad Allawi, the new Prime Minister of Iraq, pulled a pistol and executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station, just days before Washington handed control of the country to his interim government, according to two people who allege they witnessed the killings.

They say the prisoners - handcuffed and blindfolded - were lined up against a wall in a courtyard adjacent to the maximum-security cell block in which they were held at the Al-Amariyah security centre, in the city's south-western suburbs.

They say Dr Allawi told onlookers the victims had each killed as many as 50 Iraqis and they "deserved worse than death".

The Prime Minister's office has denied the entirety of the witness accounts in a written statement to the Herald, saying Dr Allawi had never visited the centre and he did not carry a gun.

But the informants told the Herald that Dr Allawi shot each young man in the head as about a dozen Iraqi policemen and four Americans from the Prime Minister's personal security team watched in stunned silence.

Iraq's Interior Minister, Falah al-Naqib, is said to have looked on and congratulated him when the job was done. Mr al-Naqib's office has issued a verbal denial.

The names of three of the alleged victims have been obtained by the Herald.

One of the witnesses claimed that before killing the prisoners Dr Allawi had told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents.

"The prisoners were against the wall and we were standing in the courtyard when the Interior Minister said that he would like to kill them all on the spot. Allawi said that they deserved worse than death - but then he pulled the pistol from his belt and started shooting them."

Re-enacting the killings, one witness stood three to four metres in front of a wall and swung his outstretched arm in an even arc, left to right, jerking his wrist to mimic the recoil as each bullet was fired. Then he raised a hand to his brow, saying: "He was very close. Each was shot in the head."

quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The prisoners were against the wall and we were standing in the courtyard when the Interior Minister said that he would like to kill them all on the spot. Allawi said that they deserved worse than death - but then he pulled the pistol from his belt and started shooting them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The witnesses said seven prisoners had been brought out to the courtyard, but the last man in the line was only wounded - in the neck, said one witness; in the chest, said the other.

Given Dr Allawi's role as the leader of the US experiment in planting a model democracy in the Middle East, allegations of a return to the cold-blooded tactics of his predecessor are likely to stir a simmering debate on how well Washington knows its man in Baghdad, and precisely what he envisages for the new Iraq.

There is much debate and rumour in Baghdad about the Prime Minister's capacity for brutality, but this is the first time eyewitness accounts have been obtained.

A former CIA officer, Vincent Cannisatraro, recently told The New Yorker: "If you're asking me if Allawi has blood on his hands from his days in London, the answer is yes, he does. He was a paid Mukhabarat [intelligence] agent for the Iraqis, and he was involved in dirty stuff."

In Baghdad, varying accounts of the shootings are interpreted by observers as useful to a little-known politician who, after 33 years in exile, needs to prove his leadership credentials as a "strongman" in a war-ravaged country that has no experience of democracy.

Dr Allawi's statement dismissed the allegations as rumours instigated by enemies of his interim government.

But in a sharp reminder of the Iraqi hunger for security above all else, the witnesses did not perceive themselves as whistle-blowers. In interviews with the Herald they were enthusiastic about such killings, with one of them arguing: "These criminals were terrorists. They are the ones who plant the bombs."

Before the shootings, the 58-year-old Prime Minister is said to have told the policemen they must have courage in their work and that he would shield them from any repercussions if they killed insurgents in the course of their duty.

The witnesses said the Iraqi police observers were "shocked and surprised". But asked what message they might take from such an act, one said: "Any terrorists in Iraq should have the same destiny. This is the new Iraq.

"Allawi wanted to send a message to his policemen and soldiers not to be scared if they kill anyone - especially, they are not to worry about tribal revenge. He said there would be an order from him and the Interior Ministry that all would be fully protected.

"He told them: 'We must destroy anyone who wants to destroy Iraq and kill our people.'

"At first they were surprised. I was scared - but now the police seem to be very happy about this. There was no anger at all, because so many policemen have been killed by these criminals."

Dr Allawi had made a surprise visit to the complex, they said.

Neither witness could give a specific date for the killings. But their accounts narrowed the time frame to on or around the third weekend in June - about a week before the rushed handover of power in Iraq and more than three weeks after Dr Allawi was named as the interim Prime Minister.

They said that as many as five of the dead prisoners were Iraqis, two of whom came from Samarra, a volatile town to the north of the capital, where an attack by insurgents on the home of Mr Al-Naqib killed four of the Interior Minister's bodyguards on June 19.

The Herald has established the names of three of the prisoners alleged to have been killed. Two names connote ties to Syrian-based Arab tribes, suggesting they were foreign fighters: Ahmed Abdulah Ahsamey and Amer Lutfi Mohammed Ahmed al-Kutsia.

The third was Walid Mehdi Ahmed al-Samarrai. The last word of his name indicates that he was one of the two said to come from Samarra, which is in the Sunni Triangle.

The three names were provided to the Interior Ministry, where senior adviser Sabah Khadum undertook to provide a status report on each. He was asked if they were prisoners, were they alive or had they died in custody.

But the next day he cut short an interview by hanging up the phone, saying only: "I have no information - I don't want to comment on that specific matter."

All seven were described as young men. One of the witnesses spoke of the distinctive appearance of four as "Wahabbi", the colloquial Iraqi term for the foreign fundamentalist insurgency fighters and their Iraqi followers.

He said: "The Wahabbis had long beards, very short hair and they were wearing dishdashas [the caftan-like garment worn by Iraqi men]."

Raising the hem of his own dishdasha to reveal the cotton pantaloons usually worn beneath, he said: "The other three were just wearing these - they looked normal."

One witness justified the shootings as an unintended act of mercy: "They were happy to die because they had already been beaten by the police for two to eight hours a day to make them talk."

After the removal of the bodies, the officer in charge of the complex, General Raad Abdullah, is said to have called a meeting of the policemen and told them not to talk outside the station about what had happened. "He said it was a security issue," a witness said.

One of the Al-Amariyah witnesses said he watched as Iraqis among the Prime Minister's bodyguards piled the prisoners' bodies into the back of a Nissan utility and drove off. He did not know what became of them. But the other witness said the bodies were buried west of Baghdad, in open desert country near Abu Ghraib.

That would place their burial near the notorious prison, which was used by Saddam Hussein's security forces to torture and kill thousands of Iraqis. Subsequently it was revealed as the setting for the still-unfolding prisoner abuse scandal involving US troops in the aftermath of the fall of Baghdad.

The Herald has established that as many as 30 people, including the victims, may have been in the courtyard. One of the witnesses said there were five or six civilian-clad American security men in a convoy of five or six late model four-wheel-drive vehicles that was shepherding Dr Allawi's entourage on the day. The US military and Dr Allawi's office refused to respond to questions about the composition of his security team. It is understood that the core of his protection unit is drawn from the US Special Forces units.

The security establishment where the killings are said to have happened is on open ground on the border of the Al-Amariyah and Al-Kudra neighbourhoods in Baghdad.

About 90 policemen are stationed at the complex, which processes insurgents and more hardened offenders among those captured in the struggle against a wave of murder, robbery and kidnapping in post-invasion Iraq.

The Interior Ministry denied permission for the Herald to enter the heavily fortified police complex.

The two witnesses were independently and separately found by the Herald. Neither approached the newspaper. They were interviewed on different days in a private home in Baghdad, without being told the other had spoken. A condition of the co-operation of each man was that no personal information would be published.

Both interviews lasted more than 90 minutes and were conducted through an interpreter, with another journalist present for one of the meetings. The witnesses were not paid for the interviews.

Dr Allawi's office has dismissed the allegations as rumours instigated by enemies of his interim government.

A statement in the name of spokesman Taha Hussein read: "We face these sorts of allegations on a regular basis. Numerous groups are attempting to hinder what the interim Iraqi government is on the verge of achieving, and occasionally they spread outrageous accusations hoping they will be believed and thus harm the honourable reputation of those who sacrifice so much to protect this glorious country and its now free and respectable people.

"Dr Allawi is turning this country into a free and democratic nation run by the rule of law; so if your sources are as credible as they say they are, then they are more than welcome to file a complaint in a court of law against the Prime Minister."

In response to a question asking if Dr Allawi carried a gun, the statement said: "[He] does not carry a pistol. He is the Prime Minister of Iraq, not a combatant in need of any weaponry."

Sabah Khadum, a senior adviser to Interior Minister Mr Naqib, whose portfolio covers police matters, also dismissed the accounts. Rejecting them as "ludicrous", Mr Khadum said of Dr Allawi: "He is a doctor and I know him. He was my neighbour in London. He just doesn't have it in him. Baghdad is a city of rumours. This is not worth discussing."

Mr Khadum added: "Do you think a man who is Prime Minister is going to disqualify himself for life like this? This is not a government of gangsters."

Asked if Dr Allawi had visited the Al-Amariyah complex - one of the most important counter-insurgency centres in Baghdad - Mr Khadum said he could not reveal the Prime Minister's movements. But he added: "Dr Allawi has made many visits to police stations ... he is heading the offensive."

US officials in Iraq have not made an outright denial of the allegations. An emailed response to questions from the Herald to the US ambassador, John Negroponte, said: "If we attempted to refute each [rumour], we would have no time for other business. As far as this embassy's press office is concerned, this case is closed."

[nightbird]

Iraqi PM executed six insurgents: witnesses

Austrilian Broadcsating Company ^ | 16 Jul 04 | MAXINE MCKEW

Posted on 07/16/2004 10:33:57 AM PDT by dts32041

MAXINE MCKEW: Let's go straight to the allegations that Iyad Allawi executed as many as six suspected insurgents at a Baghdad police station at the end of June.

The explosive claims in tomorrow's Sydney Morning Herald and Age newspapers allege that the prisoners were handcuffed and blindfolded, lined up against a courtyard wall and shot by the Iraqi Prime Minister.

Dr Allawi is alleged to have told those around him that he wanted to send a clear message to the police on how to deal with insurgents.

Two people allege they witnessed the killings and there are also claims the Iraqi Interior Minister was present as well as four American security men in civilian dress.

Well, the journalist reporting the story is Paul McGeough, awarded a Walkley Award for his coverage of the Iraq war last year.

He's also a former editor of the Herald and is now the paper's chief correspondent.

He's joined me on the line from a location in the Middle East.

MAXINE McKEW: Paul McGeough, thanks for joining us.

Paul, as you've also made clear in your article, Prime Minister Allawi has flatly denied this story.

Why then is the Herald so confident about publishing it?

PAUL McGEOUGH, 'SYDNEY MORNING HERALD' AND 'AGE' FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Well it's a very contentious issue.

What you have is two very solid eyewitness accounts of what happened at a police security complex in a south-west Baghdad suburb.

They are very detailed.

They were done separately.

Each witness is not aware that the other spoke.

They were contacted through personal channels rather than through the many political, religious or military organisations working in Baghdad that might be trying to spin a tale.

And they've laid it out very carefully and very clearly as to what they saw.

MAXINE McKEW: You haven't identified these witnesses but why have they felt free to talk about such an extraordinary story?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, they were approached through personal connections and as a result of that, they accepted assurances

They were guaranteed anonymity, they were told that no identifying material would be published on them and they told what they saw.

MAXINE McKEW: And just take us through the events as they were accounted to you?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well, I'll take you through what the two bits of pieces of what the two witnesses said to give you the full chronology as I understand it.

There was a surprise visit at about 10:30 in the morning to the police centre.

The PM is said to have talked to a large group of policemen, then to have toured the complex.

They came to a courtyard where six, sorry seven prisoners were lined up against a wall.

They were handcuffed, they were blindfolded, they were described to me as an Iraqi colloquialism for the fundamentalist foreign fighters who have come to Baghdad.

They have that classic look that you see with many of the Osama bin Laden associates of the scraggly beard and the very short hair and they were a sort of ... took place in front of them as they were up against this wall was an exchange between the Interior Minister and Dr Allawi, the Interior Minister saying that he felt like killing them on the spot.

It's worth noting at this point in the story that on June 19, there was an attack on the Interior Minister's home in the Sunni triangle in which four of his bodyguards (inaudible) --

Dr Allawi is alleged to have said (inaudible) -- .

MAXINE McKEW: Paul, you just dropped out there.

You were just beginning to describe in fact how this incident, this alleged incident, took place.

What was the action taken?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Um, after a tour of the complex, the sort of official party, if you like, arrived in a courtyard where the prisoners were lined up against a wall.

An exchange is said to have taken place between Dr Allawi and the Interior Minister.

The Interior Minister lives to the north of Baghdad, and on June 19, four of his bodyguards were killed in an attack on his home.

He expressed the wish that he would like to kill all these men on the spot.

The PM is said to have responded that they deserved worse than death, that each was responsible for killing more than 50 Iraqis each, and at that point, he is said to have pulled a gun and proceeded to aim at and shoot all seven.

Six of them died, the seventh, according to one witness, was wounded in the chest, according to the other witness, was wounded in the neck and presumed to be dead.

MAXINE McKEW: And the victims, they were, what, foreign or local insurgents?

PAUL McGEOUGH: They were - one of the witnesses described them as Wahabis, the Iraqi colloquialism for foreign fighters who have come into the country or local Iraqis who have taken on their Islamic jihad, if you like.

The reference is very much to their appearance - very short hair, very scraggly beard and four of them were described as Wahabis, the other three were described to me as normal Iraqis.

MAXINE McKEW: Now you're time line, Paul, on this is this happened just before the formal handover, is that right, to Dr Allawi's interim Government?

PAUL McGEOUGH: As explained by the witnesses, neither of them could put a precise date on the incident.

But they each gave me a description in terms of the days that had lapsed from it and by tracking back on the two different descriptions that they gave me from the date of the interview I had with them, which was some days apart, I was able to establish that it happened on or around the weekend of June 19/20.

That would make it three weeks after Dr Allawi had been named as Prime Minister - one week before the handover.

MAXINE MCKEW: And your informants, in what kind of tone did they recount this extraordinary tale?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Very matter-of-factly, which is often the way you get incredible or remarkable events explained to you in this part of the world.

There's been so much violence, so much pain and a particular attitude to death, if you like, that both of them recounted it quite matter-of-factly.

MAXINE McKEW: And of course, I have to ask you again - I'm sure that the Baghdad rumour mill would be thick with stories about Dr Allawi.

Why are you so confident that you can't put this story into that same category?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Because it came from two eye witnesses.

You're right about the Baghdad rumour mill, it's ferocious.

And versions of this story are on it and it was as a result of hearing this story as a rumour that I proceeded to check it to investigate it, to see if it had a factual base.

I used, as I said earlier, personal channels to make contact with the two witnesses to establish that they were in a position to know in terms of somebody trying to come at me with a story, that wasn't the case.

They did not come to me.

They weren't offered or volunteered to me.

There was an element of chance involved in meeting one of them, which would have made it impossible for him to have been a set-up for me, and listening to their stories, their stories sounded credible.

I had a colleague sitting in by accident on one of the interviews.

He was impressed by the credibility and something that's very important with a story like this in this part of the world, particularly where you're interviewing through interpreters I had a very sound, to me on the ground, a very valuable set of Iraqi eyes and ears listening and also believing the account.

MAXINE McKEW: Your sources of course will be sought out by other news agencies after tonight.

Will they stand up to scrutiny?

PAUL McGEOUGH: Well I don't know whether others will find them or not.

I won't be making them available to anyone.

I've given undertakes that I would protect their identities absolutely and I have to stand by that.

MAXINE McKEW: All right, for that.

Paul McGeough, thanks very much indeed, fascinating story.

PAUL McGEOUGH: OK.

[Blood Angel]

I think hes making the point: Its just not soundbites and innuendos..

[Erikl]

Iran doesnt like the USA government, they havent forgotton how america supplied arms to Saddam during the Iran/Iraq war or how Saddam was appointed to power either.

Actually, the current regime of Iran doesn't like the U.S for many other reasons:

It is a fundementalist regime, and thus hates the west, who's America is considered to be a symbol of.

It hates the Shah regime, who was sponsored by America.

The U.S actually supported Sadaam in the Iran-Iraq war only after the "Iran-gate" incident a couple of years before.

Not the other way around.

And fluffy - I don't recall Saddaam was put into power by the U.S - the U.S, along with Britain, supported the regime of the Hashmite king of Iraq, who was overthrown by the Baath party in the 60s.

Actually, thr U.S supported the Kurds in their uprisings against Saddam in the 60s.

btw, untill the Iran-Iraq war, Baathist Iraq (like Baathist Syria) was a close ally of the USSR - most of the weapons (tanks, missiles, artilery, planes, etc.) were Soviet weapons (even in the first Gulf War the Iraqis used Migs and T-72s and SCUDS against allies forces).

I think U.S hatred (and self-hatred) has gone too far in this forum - so far as to people starting to distort history for their own agendas. Sure, the U.S, just like any other country, have done it's share of mistakes, and as a superpower, those mistakes were pretty big.

But remember that Britian, as a world power untill 60 years ago, also did alot of mistakes in the middle-east (actually, most of today's problems in this region is a result of wrong British and French actions). And as an ex-British colony, I can tell you that the British weren't really moral in their actions over seas.

France as well did many mistakes, and was even worst than Britain in their treatment to other people over seas. They also sold Iraq the Osiraq nuclear reactor, which if my country haven't destroyed, the allies would have got nuked in 1991.

The French were also the ones to put into power the current Ayatolas regime of Iran.

The Germans sold chemical weapons to Saddam during the 80s, which were used to kill thousands of Kurds and tens of thusands of Iranians.

As I said earlier, evey country have done mistakes.

Edited July 20, 2004 by Erikl

[+joc]

I think hes making the point: Its just not soundbites and innuendos..

Some of us actually live in the world of reality....we don't see black helicopters and 'conspiracies' everywhere...well some of us do...one 'conspiracy whacko' blew up our Federal Building in Oklahoma City.

Edited July 20, 2004 by joc

[Fluffybunny]

scratches head with butt-end of 357

What the hell is that supposed to mean?

[Fluffybunny]

Just another example of how the fluffmeister and so many others make their decisions based on sound bites and inuendo

That is rich coming from someone who has more sound bites and bumper sticker quotes running throughout his posts than anyone here. Without Rush Limbaughs words you seem to struggle to come up with an original thought...Unless it is some racist dribble...

[Fluffybunny]

Some of us actually live in the world of reality....

Ha Ha Ha...

The best laugh I have had today, thank you so much joc.

To highlight my point, could you please tell people about your theory of the Communist takeover of America? Be sure to mention how the communists of the former soviet union are currently brainwashing political candidates...We wouldn't want to miss that part of your "reality".

Oh my side hurts...

Edited July 20, 2004 by Fluffybunny

[Fluffybunny]

And fluffy - I don't recall Saddaam was put into power by the U.S - the U.S, along with Britain, supported the regime of the Hashmite king of Iraq, who was overthrown by the Baath party in the 60s.

Do a little research on who assisted in the overthrow of Karim Kassim on February 8, 1963...

Over the next few years Saddam received even more help from the CIA to keep in power...same goes for helping in the Iran Iraq war...

I think U.S hatred (and self-hatred) has gone too far in this forum

We are big boys and girls, we can take it. I do not hate the USA, I love it. I fought for it, and would do the same again if need be(Unlike some here). I do not like the current leadership and what it has done, there is a big difference. Do not confuse criticism with hatred. Unlike some around here I feel that the freedoms that my country has given me allow me to criticise my government when I see a need; It is a first amendment kind of thing. I take it seriously.

I will not follow my leaders blindly, and I will point out what I consider mistakes, and it is my freedom to do so. Because I do so does not mean that I hate my country; rather it means that I want to take part in a system that will hopefully improve with my input.

I do not just write of my complaints in this forum, I do write directly to the local and federal elected officials in my jurisdictions. President Bush(His staff actually) has received many a letter over the years, as did Clinton, and my state and local representatives. Whether it has any influence I do not know, but I will say my peace anyway.

If I think that the government is making a mistake, I am most certainly going to call them on it, as I would hope everyone else does when they disagree with their governements actions.

Edited July 20, 2004 by Fluffybunny