A Middle East peace that wreaks havoc

[ExpandMyMind]

this proves that they were indeed using civilians for shields. they were using civilian buildings in civilian nieghborhoods for their rocket launchers. when isreal attacks these buildings you start yelling their attack civilians. so yes hamas is using civilians as shields.

No it doesn't and you obviously didn't read what I posted.

From all investigations it was determined that the buildings shelled/attacked did not house any Hamas before Israel hit them.

From my previous post

In all of the cases investigated by Amnesty International of families killed when their homes were bombed from the air by Israeli forces, for example, none of the houses struck was being used by armed groups for military activities. Similarly, in the cases of precision missiles or tank shells which killed civilians in their homes, no fighters were present in the houses that were struck

It also noted that Hamas only took up residence in houses that were not populated and also that they never forcibly removed anyone from any houses they did enter. All of this blows your last post out of the water. We can also note that the Israeli military set up camp in these densely populated areas, endangering civilians, themselves. It's strange, the part of my post that you highlighted in bold completely goes against what you are claiming. I'm not sure how you managed that one...

And besides, where else where they supposed to go in Gaza during this brutal assault? The term 'sardines in a can' comes to find... fish in a barrel would probably be more accurate. This all becomes even more farcical when we realise that it was Israel who broke the cease-fire on Nov 4th crossing the border and killing 6 Palestinians, not Hamas.

Further on the note of Israeli use of human shields in the past, they only outlawed such a practice 5 years ago.

On 6 October 2005, the High Court of Justice ruled that it was illegal for the IDF to use Palestinian civilians during military actions. The decision was made on a petition that B'Tselem and six other human rights organizations filed in 2002. The petition followed the IDF's use of Palestinian civilians as human shields since the beginning of the second intifada, primarily during IDF operations carried out in Palestinian population centers, as occurred in Operation Defensive Shield.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Human_Shields/Index.asp

And also to add, even if Hamas were hiding amongst civilians this does not by any stretch of law or morality allow for the targeting of civilian structures. For the most part the mauling of Gaza was intended to do just that, according to the Goldstone Report, HRW, B'tselem and Amnesty International (even the Red Cross weren't silent about Israel's obvious targeting of civilians).

Can I ask, is it alright for Hamas or Fatah to target an Israeli house because there happens to be a soldier who lives there? Of course not, it is rightly condemned. Now, how ridiculous has your stance become?

Edited September 6, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

No it doesn't and you obviously didn't read what I posted.

From all investigations it was determined that the buildings shelled/attacked did not house any Hamas before Israel hit them.

From my previous post

It also noted that Hamas only took up residence in houses that were not populated and also that they never forcibly removed anyone from any houses they did enter. All of this blows your last post out of the water. We can also note that the Israeli military set up camp in these densely populated areas, endangering civilians, themselves. It's strange, the part of my post that you highlighted in bold completely goes against what you are claiming. I'm not sure how you managed that one...

And besides, where else where they supposed to go in Gaza during this brutal assault? This all becomes even more farcical when we realise that it was Israel who broke the cease-fire on Nov 4th crossing the border and killing 6 Palestinians, not Hamas.

Further on the note of Israeli use of human shields in the past, they only outlawed such a practice 5 years ago.

http://www.btselem.org/English/Human_Shields/Index.asp

And also to add, even if Hamas were hiding amongst civilians, this does not by any stretch of law or morality, allow for the targeting of civilian structures. For the most part the mauling of Gaza was intended to do just that, according to the Goldstone Report, HRW, B'tselem and Amnesty International (even the Red Cross weren't silent about Israel's obvious targeting of civilians).

Can I ask, is it alright for Hamas or Fatah to target an Israeli house because there happens to be a soldier who lives there? Of course not, it is rightly condemned.

i am sorry but if you use civilian buildings to house your weapons it is the same as using civilians to shield your weapons with. isreal attacked buildings they thought were being used to house these weapons. which gives hamas what they wanted some sap like crying foul.

[ExpandMyMind]

i am sorry but if you use civilian buildings to house your weapons it is the same as using civilians to shield your weapons with. isreal attacked buildings they thought were being used to house these weapons. which gives hamas what they wanted some sap like crying foul.

I actually agree with the bold but not if there are no civilians in the building! Which there weren't (how can you not understand this?). The buildings Hamas occupied or occupied with weapons had no civilians.

So if Hamas blow up a building because it has an Israeli soldier in it, killing the soldier, his family and some neighbours, it's alright by you? I know you'll say no but this is what you have presently justified.

Edited September 6, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

I actually agree with the bold but not if there are no civilians in the building! Which there weren't (how can you not understand this?). The buildings Hamas occupied or occupied with weapons had no civilians.

So if Hamas blow up a building because it has an Israeli soldier in it, killing the soldier, his family and some neighbours, it's alright by you? I know you'll say no but this is what you have presently justified.

your the one who doesnt understand, hamas doesnt need a civilian in said building all they need is a sap like you,

hamas purposely targets civilians oh sorry, they dont think of anyone over 2 as civilians.

[ExpandMyMind]

[/i]

your the one who doesnt understand, hamas doesnt need a civilian in said building all they need is a sap like you,

hamas purposely targets civilians oh sorry, they dont think of anyone over 2 as civilians.

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. I know anyone else reading will understand what I'm saying but I'll take the time to explain it again to you.

Of the cases investigated where civilians were killed through aerial bombing or shelling, NO HAMAS WERE PRESENT.

It is quite clearly you who is the 'sap' for believing the ridiculous Israeli propaganda that Hamas actually want, no, further, they designed it so that civilians were killed. This doesn't claim doesn't hold a shred of validity. And if we actually look at quotes from Israeli leaders and evidence brought to light by Goldstone and the human rights organisations, it was Israel's plan to inflict damage on the civilian population and infrastructure.

Under international law it is your right to resist occupation (in fact I think it is you prerogative much the same as prisoner of wars right to attempt escape). So, after 40 years of a brutal occupation, how would you resist? Seriously, this is a question no one wants to ask. They previously resisted through (symbolic more than anything) suicide bombs. They stopped bombing in 2005 and officially renounced them in 2006 in favour of the highly more symbolic rocket attacks (by this I mean worthless for out of the thousands of rockets fired, I can count the dead with my fingers and toes), as their stance greatly changed in favour of peace and politics (this sentiment already existed but not to as large a degree). Before they adopted suicide bombings they also tried other forms of resistance but Israel were brutal in their treatment. Do you suggest they start to arm themselves with spoons?

So I ask you again, how would you resist a brutal occupation after 40 years and after trying every other method available? How would Americans resist it? By singing songs?

Give up the illegal occupation of the country, the rockets stop. It's simple. Your logic is shown to be faulty when we consider what I already posted. Hamas stopped (and even managed to stop independent attacks) firing rockets during the ceasefire before the Gaza war.. Israel brroke the ceasefire. Hamas restarted them.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

I don't know how much clearer I can make this. I know anyone else reading will understand what I'm saying but I'll take the time to explain it again to you.

Of the cases investigated where civilians were killed through aerial bombing or shelling, NO HAMAS WERE PRESENT.

It is quite clearly you who is the 'sap' for believing the ridiculous Israeli propaganda that Hamas actually want, no, further, they designed it so that civilians were killed. This doesn't claim doesn't hold a shred of validity. And if we actually look at quotes from Israeli leaders and evidence brought to light by Goldstone and the human rights organisations, it was Israel's plan to inflict damage on the civilian population and infrastructure.

Under international law it is your right to resist occupation (in fact I think it is you prerogative much the same as prisoner of wars right to attempt escape). So, after 40 years of a brutal occupation, how would you resist? Seriously, this is a question no one wants to ask. They previously resisted through (symbolic more than anything) suicide bombs. They stopped bombing in 2005 and officially renounced them in 2006 in favour of the highly more symbolic rocket attacks (by this I mean worthless for out of the thousands of rockets fired, I can count the dead with my fingers and toes), as their stance greatly changed in favour of peace and politics (this sentiment already existed but not to as large a degree). Before they adopted suicide bombings they also tried other forms of resistance but Israel were brutal in their treatment. Do you suggest they start to arm themselves with spoons?

So I ask you again, how would you resist a brutal occupation after 40 years and after trying every other method available? How would Americans resist it? By singing songs?

Give up the illegal occupation of the country, the rockets stop. It's simple. Your logic is shown to be faulty when we consider what I already posted. Hamas stopped (and even managed to stop independent attacks) firing rockets during the ceasefire before the Gaza war.. Israel brroke the ceasefire. Hamas restarted them.

that is all good and well, tell me how did the isrealie army know there was no rocket launcher in that building, when it was in the building next door. i did understand what you were saying since said building did not house a rocket isreal is bad for attacking that building instead of the one next door or across the street or in the next block.

as for occuping armies. the gaza used to belong to egypt, no polistinians there when it did. the west bank used to belong to jordan, although the polistinians are jordanians, i doubt many of them actually lived in the west bank area.

so the palistinians are the occuping army in the gaza.

Edited September 7, 2010 by danielost

[ExpandMyMind]

as for occuping armies. the gaza used to belong to egypt, no polistinians there when it did. the west bank used to belong to jordan, although the polistinians are jordanians, i doubt many of them actually lived in the west bank area.

so the palistinians are the occuping army in the gaza.

Wow. You've been listening to moon for too long. The Egyptians (and others) were not an occupying army, they were caretakers for the Palestinians (for lack of a better term), the same Palestinians who were designated with just less than half of Palestine by the UN after WW2. This land was designated for the Palestinians. When Israel largely purged them from the land, in an attempt to purge them from all of Palestine, Egypt and Jordan managed to hold onto the comparatively tiny West Bank and Gaza, a mere 20% of Palestine. Israel also tried to convince the world for many years that these Palestinians did not even exist. To try to then suggest that these Palestinians somehow now have no right to the land [Palestine] that they resided on loooong before any European Jew came along... is a crime against humanity in my opinion. And I'm not even exaggerating.

Wait, I've already explained this in this thread http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=189427&pid=3561322&st=15entry3561322

But from your reply you obviously didn't understand it. Daniel, if you don't start even making an attempt at understanding views opposite you your own, then I'll have to stick you on ignore because debating you when you are like this is.. bloody annoying.

"The Palestinians are occupying Gaza"... I can't even begin to try to explain all that is wrong with this statement. You, my son, are a lost cause.

The rest of your posts wasn't even worth replying to.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

Wow. You've been listening to moon for too long. The Egyptians (and others) were not an occupying army, they were caretakers for the Palestinians (for lack of a better term), the same Palestinians who were designated with just less than half of Palestine by the UN after WW2. This land was designated for the Palestinians. When Israel largely purged them from the land, in an attempt to purge them from all of Palestine, Egypt and Jordan managed to hold onto the comparatively tiny West Bank and Gaza, a mere 20% of Palestine. Israel also tried to convince the world for many years that these Palestinians did not even exist. To try to then suggest that these Palestinians somehow now have no right to the land [Palestine] that they resided on loooong before any European Jew came along... is a crime against humanity in my opinion. And I'm not even exaggerating.

The rest of your posts wasn't even worth replying to.

i never said egypt was an occuping army, i said that they owned gaza until isreal took the area after egypt attacked them during the six day war. the palistinians came for jordan where they had tried to do the samething in jordan that they are trying to do in isreal. the palistinians are an occuping army.

[ExpandMyMind]

i never said egypt was an occuping army, i said that they owned gaza until isreal took the area after egypt attacked them during the six day war. the palistinians came for jordan where they had tried to do the samething in jordan that they are trying to do in isreal. the palistinians are an occuping army.

Israel attacked Egypt in the 6 day war daniel... not the other way around. The Palestinians are not an army, and they're occupying their own land. Can it even count as an occupation when it's your own country? Don't answer that...

And just to quickly address this "i never said egypt was an occuping army"

2 posts or so up - Daniel: as for occuping armies. the gaza used to belong to egypt,

Well if we're talking about ownership, during the Oslo accords, the Egyptians and Jordanians relinquished both pieces of land to their rightful owners.

Same thing they're doing to Israel? What are you even talking about? I think what you are suggesting is that the Palestinians should leave the Occupied Territories and give up all chance of gaining what is already theirs in the eyes of international law and the international community (not to mention morally)? You want them to be the next Jews, a people without a country? Again, crime against humanity.

I'm surprised there aren't more spelling mistakes because all I've done through this reply is bang my head off the keyboard.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Why weren't Egypt and Jordan occupiers? They took over Gaza and the West Bank the same time Isreal took over what became Israel, in the same war, in the same way.

Or is the reason they're not “occupiers” because it doesn't fit your view that Israel is the only bad guy in the conflict?

Edited September 7, 2010 by Pseudo Intellectual

[ExpandMyMind]

Why weren't Egypt and Jordan occupiers? They took over Gaza and the West Bank (and East Jerusalem) the same time Isreal took over what became Israel, in the same war, in the same way.

Or is the reason they're not “occupiers” because it doesn't fit your view that Israel is the only bad guy in the conflict?

Yes, they took over the land for the Palestinians who had already been forced out of most of the country. They were not 'occupier' because the Palestinians did not view them as such. You're talking about the countries that made sure the Palestinians weren't cheated out of all of Palestine. Were the Palestinians rushing for Egypt and Jordan to end their 'occupations'? Not bloody likely... especially considering the Palestinian Liberation Organisation was created by these 'occupiers'.

It's not an occupation as you describe, not even close. To try to suggest so is madness.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

Israel attacked Egypt in the 6 day war daniel... not the other way around. The Palestinians are not an army, and they're occupying their own land. Can it even count as an occupation when it's your own country? Don't answer that...

And just to quickly address this "i never said egypt was an occuping army"

2 posts or so up - Daniel: as for occuping armies. the gaza used to belong to egypt,

Well if we're talking about ownership, during the Oslo accords, the Egyptians and Jordanians relinquished both pieces of land to their rightful owners.

Same thing they're doing to Israel? What are you even talking about? I think what you are suggesting is that the Palestinians should leave the Occupied Territories and give up all chance of gaining what is already theirs in the eyes of international law and the international community (not to mention morally)? You want them to be the next Jews, a people without a country? Again, crime against humanity.

I'm surprised there aren't more spelling mistakes because all I've done through this reply is bang my head off the keyboard.

sorry the six day war was started when 6 arab nations attacked isreal, being lebonion, syria, jordan, egypt, saidia arabia, not sure who the other 1 was, isreal has not attacked anyone except one civilian ship they mistake for an egyptian troop transport.

Edited September 7, 2010 by danielost

[ExpandMyMind]

sorry the six day war was started when 6 arab nations attacked isreal, being lebonion, syria, jordan, egypt, saidia arabia, not sure who the other 1 was, isreal has not attacked anyone except one civilian ship they mistake for an egyptian troop transport.

I really should look out some face-palms just for you. But seriously, the Saudis? Lebanon?

Israel started the six day war. Israel, not other countries.

Israel's first and most critical move was a surprise pre-emptive attack on the Egyptian Air Force.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#The_fighting_fronts

"Israel has not attacked anyone". Completely and utterly not true.

And the ship I think you're referring to is the USS Liberty, which the Israeli planes flew over and even waved to the crew of this unmistakable US ship (there was a massive US flag).

No one knows for sure why Israel attacked them, but it has been long established that it was not a mistake. Not least by intercepted and translated Israeli communications which made it clear they knew who they were hitting.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[MichaelW]

Israel started the six day war. Israel, not other countries.

Honestly, you really need to read some history books.

Egypt, the largest Arab state with a population of 31 million, massed troops on its border with Israel and imposed a naval blockade of Israel’s southern port, an act of war. Confronted with these aggressive moves, and the Arab leaders' promises to destroy the Jewish state, Israel launched a pre-emptive strike against the Egyptian army and airforce. Egypt’s air force was quickly crippled, and a well-executed Israeli ground offensive routed the Egyptian forces in Gaza and the Sinai peninsula in four days.

Israel attacked Egypt in response to what has been described above. If Egypt hadn't done so, then Israel would not have attacked. Egypt would have attacked regardless of what Israel had done.

Here's the link: http://www.sixdaywar.org/war.asp

[ExpandMyMind]

Honestly, you really need to read some history books.

If you only had any idea how much Israel/Palestine literature I've just waded through, you would realise just how silly that statement was.

Israel attacked Egypt in response to what has been described above.

You have simplified this situation to the max here. There was far more to the situation than what you have presented.

Please though, tell me, how is this not Israel attacking Egypt and starting the war? Then how am I wrong in saying that Israel started the 6 day war?

If Egypt hadn't done so, then Israel would not have attacked.

How can you even claim this? The situation was far more complex than you seem to realise and there were many factors involved (not least of which, two other countries)

Egypt would have attacked regardless of what Israel had done.

Here's the link: http://www.sixdaywar.org/war.asp

According to US and Israeli officials and the documented record from the time, Nasser had no intentions of attacking Israel.

US president Johnson told Eban that even after instructing his 'experts to assume all the facts that the Israelis had given them to be true', 'it was still their unanimous view that there is no Egyptian intention to make an imminent attack' - a conclusion, according to Eban, also reached by the Israeli intelligence.

reporting for the NYT on the eve of the assault James Reston confirmed Egypt 'does not want war and is certainly not ready for war'.

Mossad chief Meir Amit 'Egypt was not ready for war; and Nasser did not want war'

Rikhye who toured the egyptian front, confirms that egyptian troops were not poised for an offensive.

Rabin after the victory said he 'did not believe that Nasser wanted a war'.'the two divisions he sent to Sanai on may 14' the chief of staff surmised 'would not have been enough to unleash an offensive. He knew it and we knew it.'

Israeli compiled Middle East Record states that 'most observers agree' that Nasser did not intend to launch an attack 'and that his pledges to U Thant and to the Great Powers not to start shooting should, therefore, be accepted at face value'.

Image and Reality of the Israel-Palestine Conflict, page 134.

And I could continue if you wish?

The troop movements and the rest had to do with Nasser saving face with the Arabs and especially with his own people as he had watched Israel act against Jordan and Syria in the past and had done nothing. There is no evidence, anywhere, to suggest Nasser was going to attack, yet plenty to suggest he wasn't.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[ExpandMyMind]

One more quote from that page which rounds it off nicely.

Menachem Begin member of National Unity government conceded many years later that 'we had a choice'. 'the Egyptian army concentrations in the Sinai approaches', he cautioned, 'do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him.

Edited September 7, 2010 by expandmymind

[danielost]

I really should look out some face-palms just for you. But seriously, the Saudis? Lebanon?

Israel started the six day war. Israel, not other countries.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#The_fighting_fronts'>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War#The_fighting_fronts

"Israel has not attacked anyone". Completely and utterly not true.

And the ship I think you're referring to is the USS Liberty, which the Israeli planes flew over and even waved to the crew of this unmistakable US ship (there was a massive US flag).

No one knows for sure why Israel attacked them, but it has been long established that it was not a mistake. Not least by intercepted and translated Israeli communications which made it clear they knew who they were hitting.

shes right you need to read some history books.

like this paragraph. someone plants mines on your territory that is starting a war.

After the 1956 Suez Crisis, Egypt agreed to the stationing of a United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Sinai to ensure all parties would comply with the 1949 Armistice Agreements.[10] In the following years there were numerous minor border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Syria. In early November, 1966, Syria signed a mutual defense agreement with Egypt.[11] After several attacks on Israel that killed and injured dozens of people, reportedly by the Palestinian fedayeen group Fatah, three Israeli paratroopers were killed when they ran over a mine. In response Israel attacked the city of as-Samu in the Jordanian-occupied West Bank.[12] Jordanian units sent to engage the Israelis were quickly beaten back. [13] King Hussein of Jordan criticized Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser for failing to come to Jordan's aid, and "hiding behind UNEF skirts".[14] In May of 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border. In response Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[15][16] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[17][18] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that was the opening of the Six-Day War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

but that would go against your isreal is evil and started every little fight which it didnt and hasnt,

[danielost]

Honestly, you really need to read some history books.

Israel attacked Egypt in response to what has been described above. If Egypt hadn't done so, then Israel would not have attacked. Egypt would have attacked regardless of what Israel had done.

Here's the link: http://www.sixdaywar.org/war.asp

by the way that blockaid of isreals southern port really was against international law, seeing as the two were not at war at the time.

[acidhead]

shes right you need to read some history books.

like this paragraph. someone plants mines on your territory that is starting a war.

After the 1956 Suez Crisis, Egypt agreed to the stationing of a United Nations Emergency Force (UNEF) in the Sinai to ensure all parties would comply with the 1949 Armistice Agreements.[10] In the following years there were numerous minor border clashes between Israel and its Arab neighbors, particularly Syria. In early November, 1966, Syria signed a mutual defense agreement with Egypt.[11] After several attacks on Israel that killed and injured dozens of people, reportedly by the Palestinian fedayeen group Fatah, three Israeli paratroopers were killed when they ran over a mine. In response Israel attacked the city of as-Samu in the Jordanian-occupied West Bank.[12] Jordanian units sent to engage the Israelis were quickly beaten back. [13] King Hussein of Jordan criticized Egyptian President Gamal Abdel Nasser for failing to come to Jordan's aid, and "hiding behind UNEF skirts".[14] In May of 1967, Nasser received false reports from the Soviet Union that Israel was massing on the Syrian border. In response Nasser began massing his troops in the Sinai Peninsula on Israel's border (May 16), expelled the UNEF force from Gaza and Sinai (May 19) and took up UNEF positions at Sharm el-Sheikh, overlooking the Straits of Tiran.[15][16] Israel reiterated declarations made in 1957 that any closure of the Straits would be considered an act of war, or justification for war.[17][18] Nasser declared the Straits closed to Israeli shipping on May 22–23. On June 1, Israel formed a National Unity Government by widening its cabinet, and on June 4 the decision was made to go to war. The next morning, Israel launched Operation Focus, a large-scale surprise air strike that was the opening of the Six-Day War.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War

but that would go against your isreal is evil and started every little fight which it didnt and hasnt,

Just for the record- Where were the mines placed that killed the 3 Israeli paratroopers?

[danielost]

Just for the record- Where were the mines placed that killed the 3 Israeli paratroopers?

i dont know but i would assume inside isreal since west bank was part of jordan and gaza was part of egypt.

i will remind you that isreal has already proven that it is willing to give up land for peace.

Edited September 7, 2010 by danielost

[Doc Socks Junior]

i will remind you that isreal has already proven that it is willing to give up land for peace.

Land that they took to begin with? Wow, how generous of them.

[danielost]

Land that they took to begin with? Wow, how generous of them.

all land every where has been taken from someone more than once. except antarctica.

[Doc Socks Junior]

all land every where has been taken from someone more than once. except antarctica.

And...that does nothing to negate the implications of my statement. Try again, please.

[danielost]

And...that does nothing to negate the implications of my statement. Try again, please.

and your statement did not negate mine.

[Doc Socks Junior]

and your statement did not negate mine.

Grow up, and stop repeating my statements. We are talking about a specific case, screw generalizations. Answer the original statement.

Edited September 8, 2010 by socrates.junior