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Persia

Who's Afraid of Shariah ?

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Beckys_Mom

Prove it! Majority are hetro because that is the natural disposition. If your a teen coming out, why do they question they sexuality, confusion, why? Because it's against the natural order at all levels and it's against their own natural disposition. Hetro don't question their sexuality, because it's natural order and disposition on all levels. That's the last on this because it's been exhausted. Go back and catch up on arguments for and against.

What a cop out if ever I saw one... and I can't help but notice you cut out a HUGE part of my post that explains more facts..... typical of you LOL

I Knew you couldnt explain when it was you CHOSE to be straight...no once can..:rolleyes:

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markprice

Ok we are done since you have conprehension problems and devilish intent. I won't play your games.

Penalties, have been addressed sufficiently, I respect your opinion, but not a single person here has given sufficient rebuttal of points 1 - 14.

Good day.

The penalties are the main subject of this thread, and you know they are wrong--if you're not entirely evil--and you just can't deal with it, or other facts mentioned about the consequences of your religious constitution.

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markprice

We are done mate. I entertained you long enough, even from the start remember, the **** abbreviation only comment. That a side, you would not even know what evidence is if it constantly slapped you in the face.

You want proof, bring me your criterion for judging the evidence. Meaning what will suffice as evidence (baring in mind that the evidence is from a book) and how you will judge the evidence and what will we use to judge it.

But not the place, PM me if you wanna go ahead with it only once my condition is met, I will bring the proof.

Oh man, you got nothing! A fraud the whole time then back to your first lame accusation that did not even apply...fail. (amazing)

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Lion6969

Sigh...you don't get it and never will..its pointless talking to you... in fact..out of the 5 years I have spent on here talking religion...you are the 1st muslim that I have ever had a dispute with....I only came here to post my views on Shariah Law..........and you have turned it all upside down and somehow dragged your religion into it too.. when we are talking about the treatment and punishment ...................you seem to sit and latch on to provoke people for the sheer hell of it....and all you can post up is the same junk--> BS you are WRONG, thats ignorance, BS Lmao more BS <-- thats it summed up

Dude..you're on your own <-- bet thats not the 1st time you've heard that line lol

This is going nowhere...I think i'll head back to talking about something more intresting ...like - ohh I dunno --> How long is a peice of string?? & If you paint a wall how long does it take to dry?? .......Anyhting ...it would be better than sitting in a pointless arguement with a fustrated ranter over some weird laws lol

Goodnight!!!

Typical answer when you can't construct a proper reply, it's all about me turning everything upside down.

Wake up shariah is a religion based law, therefore religion plays apart.

It's funny how you actually avoid my points and give off an emotional rant. Do you or do you not base judgment on the Quran, Islam based on your experience with Christianity, and what the media teaches you? Before you answer remember the statement you have made so far.

I alone am enough for most of you, sure you will not have come across someone like me, I can assure you I have enough experience of people like you.

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Lion6969

What a cop out if ever I saw one... and I can't help but notice you cut out a HUGE part of my post that explains more facts..... typical of you LOL

I Knew you couldnt explain when it was you CHOSE to be straight...no once can..:rolleyes:

everyone on here is fully aware that there are about 40 pages of discussion on this topic between me and shadow catch up, no cop out, when you catch up then we will continue otherwise I'm going in a circle.

You actually avoided my point entirely and just made another emotional rant. I quoted one part of your post because that summarised what the rest said.

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Lion6969

The penalties are the main subject of this thread, and you know they are wrong--if you're not entirely evil--and you just can't deal with it, or other facts mentioned about the consequences of your religious constitution.

Shariah is a system which needs to viewed as a whole like secularism, not just the law or the punishments. Even if analysing secularism you don't just judge it on it's flimsy laws.

The penalties are the main subject of this thread, and you know they are wrong--if you're not entirely evil--and you just can't deal with it, or other facts mentioned about the consequences of your religious constitution.

Shariah is a system which needs to viewed as a whole like secularism, not just the law or the punishments. Even if analysing secularism you don't just judge it on it's flimsy laws. Can you go through 1-14 one by one telling me where it is wrong!

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Lion6969

Oh man, you got nothing! A fraud the whole time then back to your first lame accusation that did not even apply...fail. (amazing)

Were done, obviously you have no criterion. All your posts are simply accusations which never recurve any substantiation. It's like I'm talking with a school kid.

This was def my last post to you. I can proof to anyone else who are serious about the dialogue instead being ignorant at every chance they get.

Good night.

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markprice

Were done, obviously you have no criterion. All your posts are simply accusations which never recurve any substantiation. It's like I'm talking with a school kid.

This was def my last post to you. I can proof to anyone else who are serious about the dialogue instead being ignorant at every chance they get.

Good night.

You posted the criteria and I called you on it then you failed and ran away...don't expect a PM LOL.

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markprice

Shariah is a system which needs to viewed as a whole like secularism, not just the law or the punishments. Even if analysing secularism you don't just judge it on it's flimsy laws.

Oh yeah that's the problem: our laws are too humane and not all badass evil like sharia...my god.

Shariah is a system which needs to viewed as a whole like secularism, not just the law or the punishments. Even if analysing secularism you don't just judge it on it's flimsy laws. Can you go through 1-14 one by one telling me where it is wrong!

That is no excuse. Wrong by method and result.

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Lion6969

You posted the criteria and I called you on it then you failed and ran away...don't expect a PM LOL.

I don't expect a PM no one is man enough to take it up. You wanna let's get it on PM me with a criterion.

Oh and what was my criteria that you pulled me up on?

I won't be replying after this, but I'm intrigued how me saying I can prove it, I set a criteria when it's you who needs to judge it, but with no criteria.

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ChloeB

A person investigating the ultimate truth remains an agnostic until they find they truth. I don't think a life time of study is required, all religions have a source, you go to the source and analyse it. For example Shintoism scripture teach that the islands of japan and the world in general were created by a goddess who suckling her child and happen to drop her, the baby landed and burped and vomited, creating the islands of japan. Is this realistic as a truth, is there any truth value in it, what does science show us about land mass, tectonic plates origin of the earth etc, does this fit well together with this story, does science confirm it or reject it. Ofcourse it rejects it, there you go, one less religion to worry about, you can leave it to the side and move on knowing it's false.

For a Muslim and actually go and speak to a recent convert and they will almost all tell you that it's was the proofs the clear demand to reflect and analyse it's claims was what brought them to Islam and there is over 6000 verses in the Quran, approximately a 1000 of those deal with scientific phenomena, from the bigbang, blackholes, geography, oceanography to embryology. But it's not a book of science but rather a book of signs.

Belief in it has to be rooted in certainty, right at the start of the Quran the reader is questioned, "do you doubt this is from god" then goes on to prove it's claim and challenges the reader to disprove it. Find one book or religion that can boast this much certainty in it's call.

Okay, let's go with that......now what do you think about Muhammad splitting the moon? What does science tell us about that and how well does the story, does science confirm or reject that? Do Muslims not have to suspend some of the foundations of science to believe in that miracle? Is that not what a miracle is supposed to be?

And you'll see Muslims all over posting this image of this line as evidence of this, that the moon was split:

moon-split.jpg

But it's always that image, because if you look at others, this picture doesn't seem so miraculous:

moonsw1q.jpg

moonsw3q.jpg

The images above show the "Stright Wall", a lunar fault line that has shifted to form a 60 mile long, 800 foot high cliff.

The fault line is near the center of the moon's face. The first image shows it at first quarter, when sunlight is shining from the right, which is the higher side of the cliff, so the cliff casts a shadow which forms a straight black line. The second (2X close-up) image was taken at third quarter, so the sunlight is shining at the face of the cliff.

CCD images at prime focus (first image), and with a 2X barlow (second image).

http://home.comcast.net/~jmmahony1/PGO/photo/moon.html

So that's what I'm saying, there's some things that you cannot know with certainty, if you choose to believe in the miracles, that's one thing, and there may be some things in the Quran that agree with science, but there's lots in the book that requires faith, just parts of it that may agree with science doesn't substantiate the whole thing.

But there again, I don't know what your beliefs on this moon split miracle, but I know many Muslims do believe it happened with just a wave of Muhammad's finger to prove to his doubters who he was. I'm not seeing a huge stretch in believing that is more feasible than a burping, barfing baby made some islands.

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markprice

I don't expect a PM no one is man enough to take it up. You wanna let's get it on PM me with a criterion.

Oh and what was my criteria that you pulled me up on?

I won't be replying after this, but I'm intrigued how me saying I can prove it, I set a criteria when it's you who needs to judge it, but with no criteria.

No PM required; post your results in less than 200 of your own words, right on this thread. Should be really easy if you know what you are talking about. (the criteria was you have the proof...so bring it if you got it)

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Beckys_Mom

Okay, let's go with that......now what do you think about Muhammad splitting the moon? What does science tell us about that and how well does the story, does science confirm or reject that? Do Muslims not have to suspend some of the foundations of science to believe in that miracle? Is that not what a miracle is supposed to be?

Ack come on Chloe...let them have it..after all I am sure when muhammad 1st heard of Moses parting the red sea... he had to find something that would out-do him.....but he had a back up plan- if someones asks me how I split the moon? i'll say I did it THEN put it back together again...

Can you imagine how poor Humpty Dumpty felt when all the kings horses and all the kings men couldn't put humpty together again...bet he wishes Muhammad was around for that old nursery rhyme :lol:

Ok jokes aside.... You have raised a very good point Chloe - indeed...in order for muslims to believe in that miracle, they would have to suspend some of the foundations of science... but get this lion tells me islam and science go hand in hand lol...

What I do not get is.....how Muhammed would claim to split the moon to prove who he was...and yet it is wrtiten he forbid others to ask questions in ref to the faith..he claimed it made god angrry.........

Edited by Beckys_Mom

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Lion6969

Okay, let's go with that......now what do you think about Muhammad splitting the moon? What does science tell us about that and how well does the story, does science confirm or reject that? Do Muslims not have to suspend some of the foundations of science to believe in that miracle? Is that not what a miracle is supposed to be?

And you'll see Muslims all over posting this image of this line as evidence of this, that the moon was split:

moon-split.jpg

But it's always that image, because if you look at others, this picture doesn't seem so miraculous:

moonsw1q.jpg

moonsw3q.jpg

The images above show the "Stright Wall", a lunar fault line that has shifted to form a 60 mile long, 800 foot high cliff.

The fault line is near the center of the moon's face. The first image shows it at first quarter, when sunlight is shining from the right, which is the higher side of the cliff, so the cliff casts a shadow which forms a straight black line. The second (2X close-up) image was taken at third quarter, so the sunlight is shining at the face of the cliff.

CCD images at prime focus (first image), and with a 2X barlow (second image).

http://home.comcast.net/~jmmahony1/PGO/photo/moon.html

So that's what I'm saying, there's some things that you cannot know with certainty, if you choose to believe in the miracles, that's one thing, and there may be some things in the Quran that agree with science, but there's lots in the book that requires faith, just parts of it that may agree with science doesn't substantiate the whole thing.

But there again, I don't know what your beliefs on this moon split miracle, but I know many Muslims do believe it happened with just a wave of Muhammad's finger to prove to his doubters who he was. I'm not seeing a huge stretch in believing that is more feasible than a burping, barfing baby made some islands.

There are miracles which go beyond the realm of science and there is phenomena which is in scientific realm. You cannot prove the moon splitting, although the NASA website has some intriguing info regarding the rocks and it's make up, rocks found on the surface resembling what was beneath the surface, but this is not something I am bothered about, as you said miracles are based on faith.

Now if I give you something, 80% of the content is 100% correct, the other 20% is grey matter neither here or there. I will accept that 20% in good faith based on the 80% which is 100% correct.

Miracles by nature are something which cannot be explained, such as jesus's miracles and other prophets. Muhammed had many miracles, the only one we can prove and the biggest of them all is the Quran!

Let me give you the brief story in the moon split. The pagans demanded muhammed perform a miracle, humble as he was muhammed said this is not his power but in allahs hands in his will, Allah revealed a verse that even if he split the moon they would disbelieve, Muhammad after his interaction turned away, during him gone the pagans saw the moon in two halves, and then come together, god says in the Quran he split the moon addicted and they will still disbelieve. Muhammed did no waving he missed it himself, the pagans who witnessed it accused him of sorcery, so even though they saw it, they still did not believe it ( as Allah said, if they had they could have disproven muhammed immediately). So they decided to wait for a trade caravan which was on route to the city , when this caravan arrived they asked them did you see anything strange tonight, they said yes we saw on half of the moon east and the other west and both came together etc, these people who saw ot accepted Islam, the initial pagans still did not and if they did they would have disproven Islam muhammed the Quran. I believe in it as a matter if faith like I believe in jesus's miracles Moses, etc.

Proving the Quran is not about proving the miracle of the moon but proving the miracle of the Quran.

P.S mark we are done, I said I will prove it, PM mr your criteria for judgment. Then I will do a whole separate thread about. You need to decide on a criterion of judgment. No direct reply we are done, you wanna it, then meet the conditions.

In general now, most of you want proof, but never actually know what proof is would be and how to judge it. Have a criterion for judgment and i will provide the proof. I first need to see the criteria for judging the evidence, this is a scientific principle. Also some of you might need to learn about falsification tests another scientific principle, even Einstein was subjected to it.

As the great man said, science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind!

Edited by Lion6969

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Sthenno

In a vague attempt to get back on topic, I think that this is yet another thing that people enjoy getting indignant about without really thinking about it.

Why not have sharia law for marital and financial disputes?

What is actually wrong with letting people settle things in a manner that they choose? If it doesn't infringe upon or override native law, why not?

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Lion6969

In a vague attempt to get back on topic, I think that this is yet another thing that people enjoy getting indignant about without really thinking about it.

Why not have sharia law for marital and financial disputes?

What is actually wrong with letting people settle things in a manner that they choose? If it doesn't infringe upon or override native law, why not?

That's how Jewish courts currently work.

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ChloeB

There are miracles which go beyond the realm of science and there is phenomena which is in scientific realm. You cannot prove the moon splitting, although the NASA website has some intriguing info regarding the rocks and it's make up, rocks found on the surface resembling what was beneath the surface, but this is not something I am bothered about, as you said miracles are based on faith.

Now if I give you something, 80% of the content is 100% correct, the other 20% is grey matter neither here or there. I will accept that 20% in good faith based on the 80% which is 100% correct.

Miracles by nature are something which cannot be explained, such as jesus's miracles and other prophets. Muhammed had many miracles, the only one we can prove and the biggest of them all is the Quran!

My whole reason in bringing up the moon miracle was a comparison to what you brought up about the Shintoism, the kind of short cut way you were telling me to weed out the religions to consider as truth. So by that criteria, the whole burping baby thing, not likely literally happened, so you say we scratch that one. And how would that make this same thing with the moon, not a point to toss out Islam as well?

Let me give you the brief story in the moon split. The pagans demanded muhammed perform a miracle, humble as he was muhammed said this is not his power but in allahs hands in his will, Allah revealed a verse that even if he split the moon they would disbelieve, Muhammad after his interaction turned away, during him gone the pagans saw the moon in two halves, and then come together, god says in the Quran he split the moon addicted and they will still disbelieve. Muhammed did no waving he missed it himself, the pagans who witnessed it accused him of sorcery, so even though they saw it, they still did not believe it ( as Allah said, if they had they could have disproven muhammed immediately). So they decided to wait for a trade caravan which was on route to the city , when this caravan arrived they asked them did you see anything strange tonight, they said yes we saw on half of the moon east and the other west and both came together etc, these people who saw ot accepted Islam, the initial pagans still did not and if they did they would have disproven Islam muhammed the Quran. I believe in it as a matter if faith like I believe in jesus's miracles Moses, etc.

Okay, sorry about that, I was going off memory, I thought he pointed at it, but still we're talking a Shinto goddess and an Islamic God doing miraculous things, and in comparison, based on the fact that you'd eliminate Shintoism on that one point about the islands, I couldn't see how something such as this wouldn't be the same.

Proving the Quran is not about proving the miracle of the moon but proving the miracle of the Quran.

LOL, I have no ideas what that's supposed to mean.

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Sthenno

That's how Jewish courts currently work.

Yes, and the Beth Din have been in use for hundreds of years without anyone seeming to mind. Why the sudden fuss now? Oh yes, because the tabloids have convinced everyone it's the latest step in the plan for Muslim domination and soon they'll all be stoned to death for wearing a crop top...

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Lion6969

My whole reason in bringing up the moon miracle was a comparison to what you brought up about the Shintoism, the kind of short cut way you were telling me to weed out the religions to consider as truth. So by that criteria, the whole burping baby thing, not likely literally happened, so you say we scratch that one. And how would that make this same thing with the moon, not a point to toss out Islam as well?

The moon miracle was not the explanation for earth our origins etc, it's was a miracle for that time. It did not say it's how the earths origin came. That's the difference, with Shintoism your tossing out a flawed concept of origin of earth etc, with moon miracle, it's not the same thing is it.

LOL, I have no ideas what that's supposed to mean.

That means out Of all the miracles muhammed had, the Quran was the biggest and for the whole of time. That's the miracle we can prove to be the words of god, and science proves the miracles within it's content.

My whole reason in bringing up the moon miracle was a comparison to what you brought up about the Shintoism, the kind of short cut way you were telling me to weed out the religions to consider as truth. So by that criteria, the whole burping baby thing, not likely literally happened, so you say we scratch that one. And how would that make this same thing with the moon, not a point to toss out Islam as well?

The moon miracle was not the explanation for earth our origins etc, it's was a miracle for that time. It did not say it's how the earths origin came. That's the difference, with Shintoism your tossing out a flawed concept of origin of earth etc, with moon miracle, it's not the same thing is it.

LOL, I have no ideas what that's supposed to mean.

That means out Of all the miracles muhammed had, the Quran was the biggest and for the whole of time. That's the miracle we can prove to be the words of god, and science proves the miracles within it's content.

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Lion6969

My whole reason in bringing up the moon miracle was a comparison to what you brought up about the Shintoism, the kind of short cut way you were telling me to weed out the religions to consider as truth. So by that criteria, the whole burping baby thing, not likely literally happened, so you say we scratch that one. And how would that make this same thing with the moon, not a point to toss out Islam as well?

The moon miracle was not the explanation for earth our origins etc, it's was a miracle for that time. It did not say it's how the earths origin came. That's the difference, with Shintoism your tossing out a flawed concept of origin of earth etc, with moon miracle, it's not the same thing is it.

LOL, I have no ideas what that's supposed to mean.

That means out Of all the miracles muhammed had, the Quran was the biggest and for the whole of time. That's the miracle we can prove to be the words of god, and science proves the miracles within it's content.

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ChloeB

The moon miracle was not the explanation for earth our origins etc, it's was a miracle for that time. It did not say it's how the earths origin came. That's the difference, with Shintoism your tossing out a flawed concept of origin of earth etc, with moon miracle, it's not the same thing is it.

That means out Of all the miracles muhammed had, the Quran was the biggest and for the whole of time. That's the miracle we can prove to be the words of god, and science proves the miracles within it's content.

Well, that's the thing, with any miracles, when science proves the miracles, i.e. provides a scientific explanation for it, is it really considered a miracle anymore? That's kind of like what BM mentioned about the parting of the red sea, there was something just recently, how it possibly happened. And many religious people were really happy about it, but to me it seems that if there's a scientific explanation, it not being a miracle, but just another natural phenomena explained, that it could, depending on the person, take God out of the equation? So that's what I'm saying when I don't really follow you, science confirming something mentioned in the Quran, I don't see how that proves anything as far as God doing it as the text claims, just that it happened, and someone wrote about it as they understood it then.

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markprice

P.S mark we are done, I said I will prove it, PM mr your criteria for judgment. Then I will do a whole separate thread about. You need to decide on a criterion of judgment. No direct reply we are done, you wanna it, then meet the conditions.

In general now, most of you want proof, but never actually know what proof is would be and how to judge it. Have a criterion for judgment and i will provide the proof. I first need to see the criteria for judging the evidence, this is a scientific principle. Also some of you might need to learn about falsification tests another scientific principle, even Einstein was subjected to it.

As the great man said, science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind!

Okay here's my criterion: beyond a shadow of a doubt, prove your religion is the ultimate truth, and also go ahead and prove you know what the ultimate truth is, as you claim. Thanks. (PM's have nothing to do with it)

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markprice

That means out Of all the miracles muhammed had, the Quran was the biggest and for the whole of time. That's the miracle we can prove to be the words of god, and science proves the miracles within it's content.

and prove all that too.

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Sthenno

I don't really think the religious debate as to what is 'true' has anything to do with it.

It's about giving people the freedom to address situations in a culturally significant way. Mainstream marital law is based around outdated Christian concepts... what's the problem with letting others put their own interpretation on them>

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markprice

For the record:

The creation myth of Shinto is recorded in the ca. 712 Kojiki. It is a depiction of the events leading up to and including the creation of the Japanese Islands. There are many translations of the story with variations of complexity.

Izanagi-no-Mikoto (male) and Izanami-no-Mikoto (female) were called by all the myriad gods and asked to help each other to create a new land which was to become Japan.

They were given a spear with which they stirred the water, and when removed water dripped from the end, an island was created in the great nothingness.

They lived on this island, and created a palace and within was a large pole.

When they wished to bear offspring, they performed a ritual each rounding a pole, male to the left and female to the right, the female greeting the male first.

They had 2 children (islands) which turned out badly and they cast them out. They decided that the ritual had been done incorrectly the first time.

They repeated the ritual but according to the correct laws of nature, the male spoke first.

They then gave birth to the 8 perfect islands of the Japanese archipelago.

After the islands, they gave birth to the other Kami, Izanami-no-Mikoto dies and Izanagi-no-Mikoto tries to revive her.

His attempts to deny the laws of life and death have bad consequences.

The Japanese islands are to be considered a paradise as they were directly created by the gods for the Japanese people, and were ordained by the higher spirits to be created into the Japanese empire. Shinto is the fundamental connection between the power and beauty of nature (the land) and the Japanese people. It is the manifestation of a path to understanding the institution of divine power.

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