Jump to content
Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Persia

Who's Afraid of Shariah ?

1,007 posts in this topic

Recommended Posts

markprice

I don't really think the religious debate as to what is 'true' has anything to do with it.

It's about giving people the freedom to address situations in a culturally significant way. Mainstream marital law is based around outdated Christian concepts... what's the problem with letting others put their own interpretation on them>

that's all fine unless a girl is lashed 99 times to force a confession so she can be stoned to death, like recently.

the point about truth is 6969 said he found the ultimate truth in his religion and he can prove it (which he has evaded doing) and every other religion he's already eliminated by the same criteria.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Sthenno

that's all fine unless a girl is lashed 99 times to force a confession so she can be stoned to death, like recently.

the point about truth is 6969 said he found the ultimate truth in his religion and he can prove it (which he has evaded doing) and every other religion he's already eliminated by the same criteria.

But that wouldn't be allowed to happen in the US or the UK. In some countries this does happen, and it's terrible, but the Shariah law that allows stoning is as different from the Shariah law the article refers to as Fred Phelps is to moderate Christians.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

I went to the source of homosexuality, gay people sat with them, talked to them, debated with them, read the studies about it etc. I learnt they view and stance, did I accept it, no! That's realism mate not this fake crap of pretending to be tolerant yet never objectively studying a single verse or book from authentic Islamic sources, your excuses are flawed dude, it's the prejudice that holds you back, you don't have to agree with it, that's nit excersise the point is to know what you are talking about and understanding a position.

You went to the source, yes, but you didn't do it honestly did you? You'd already made up your mind. You decided before you went to talk to them 'homosexuality is unatural, I believe that and my religion says so' so you weren't really listening to them. Because it doesn't agree with your religion (or your natural deposition crap) you don't want to know. sure you listen to them and you debate, but it doesn't sink in. If you had talked and really, truly listened then you would have learned something and it might have swayed you. But your belief is so deeeply ingrained you'd made your decision and that's that.

You've even said outright that if it was proven natural with science then you (and your whole religion) would ignore and reject it out of hand because it doesn't fit with your beliefs. Says alot huh?

Tell me how can I objective study something that condemns me? You've said it does, so why should I go to the source and read how I'm sinning and will burn in hell? I've no interest in that.

And as you have said, Islam itself holds a prejudice. But when I say it's holding it back, you say I'm mistaken. Yet you readily admit that under 'perfect' shariah it'd be either reform or be discarded (not only that, but you'd be pefectly happy for them to do that as well). Not much of a choice or very 'tolerant'.

Like others have said, you didn't choose to be straight, I didn't choose to be bi and people don't choose to be gay. They have a choice and that's being honest with themselves. While you think the questioning part of it is just because it's going against the natural deposition it's not. It comes from a genuine feeling of 'what the hell is happening' mixed with 'everyone around me is straight why aren't I?' So the questioning is more about being different from everyone else, rather then being against your internal deposition. But hey, you debated with gay people face to face so you should understand this right?

That's all nothing more nothing less, look people on here clearly are prejudiced and bigoted but will never accept, I am given info about Islam from missionary sites and blatant bigot sites, I still go through them, that's realism and objective, not making hollow excuses, like you don't agree with me so stuff ya, I ain't even gonna study the source in order either refute or understand.

I simply cannot entertain your excuse, but I can entertain that's it's your choice.

People bring up these places because they're scared. The 'war' and the terrorism has made them scared and, as I said, fear leads people making poor choices.

I spent my whole life at school being bullied. People were prejudiced and bigotted against me, enough that they'd call me names or physically hurt me. I survived it and came through with this: accept me as I am because I'm not going to change.

Your religion wants me to. It wants me to 'reform'. I've not done anything wrong. I've not gone out and raped or killed anyone, yet it wants me to reform anyway like I have. No thanks. I didn't survive high school just to get a religion or it's holy book (supposedly written by adults who should no better but you wouldn't think it) to try and make me do that. I'm not going to read the Quran anymore then I'm going to go to one of those bullies houses for tea.

How can u even say you know what god wants when u have concept of god. Add to that the fact you wish to dictate to god what you want never asking yourself what it is god wants.

That's the whole point though. I don't know what god wants. I could sudy every religion that exists and ever has existed and I'd still be no closer to god then I am now.

What you see as a holy book is just a book to me, it's just words.

Religion is all about putting words into god's mouth and assuming to know what god wants. You said it yourself, god's concept of time could be very different to us and a million years could be an eyeblink to it. Now that's a statement you've made. Yet at the same time you want me to accept god cares about what each of us does in our lifetime, which compared to a million years is nothing.

Our concept's of god differ and therein lies the problem. I don't know or understand god and that is honest truth. You, however claim to and want me to bend to fit your belief that god is not only the creator of the universe and observe, but that same god controls practically every aspect. I find that incredible hard to believe.

So do you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to live my life, one day at a time. I'm going to be as good as I can be, but I'm not going to apologise if I think about two men together or sex in general. If I have a drink I'm responsible enough to do it at home. If I have sex then I'm responsible for that too. If I don't like something then I don't do it, but I'm not going to stop other people from doing it on a whim. I don't hide behind god or a religion for anything, or use an excuse to do either good or evil.

I'm happy with who I am and, if I do come to religon, it'd be by my own choice (as you constantly say, there's no complusion). So why would I choose one that would reject me from the get go? So one of my main criterea for coming to a religion is that it's going to accept me and not force me to be straight just because of some foolish holier then thou moral code.

Edited by shadowhive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beckys_Mom

You went to the source, yes, but you didn't do it honestly did you? You'd already made up your mind. You decided before you went to talk to them 'homosexuality is unatural, I believe that and my religion says so' so you weren't really listening to them. Because it doesn't agree with your religion (or your natural deposition crap) you don't want to know. sure you listen to them and you debate, but it doesn't sink in. If you had talked and really, truly listened then you would have learned something and it might have swayed you. But your belief is so deeeply ingrained you'd made your decision and that's that.

For years here, I have seen many religious speak out against homosexuals, and each time others asked them did they ever try and talk to a gay person to at least gain any real understanding? ....The answer was all the same – it was like an automated reply and it went like this ->> I have gay friends, I have spoken to gays...

.... I have seen these same answers over and over.........and to prove it, I could easily direct you to several threads that do in fact contain those exact same answers - "we have gay friends" ect ....straight up lol I personally have never believed a single word of it...and I don't have to...

Think about it, if you were gay would you befriend someone that followed a faith that condemned you to death? Would you make friends with someone who totally disapproved of your lifestyle?..... I know I sure wouldn't

Now...look at what you just said – you have already made your mind up <<-- that is correct, he and others like him have already made their own minds up from what they follow in their faith, they have no interest in actually getting to know the facts behind homosexuals, they will argue back and forth until someone is blue in the face..and will refuse to show any real understanding...

I posted up a lot of facts on gays to him previously... in his reply to me...he had cut out a lot of my post he didn't care to read...and just went back to his own ignorance about gays.STILL showing no understand and showing signs of someone who just doesn't want to understand..and this is the SAME person that when any of us gave view on Islam and their laws... he ranted saying we are just ignorant..and complained saying we never did any real research, we just don't want to understand..... do you see a pattern here? LOL.

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

Okay here's my criterion: beyond a shadow of a doubt, prove your religion is the ultimate truth, and also go ahead and prove you know what the ultimate truth is, as you claim. Thanks. (PM's have nothing to do with it)

How will you know it's proven beyond any doubt. Let me give you an example the Quran talks about the origin if the universe, how and what criterion will you use to judge the evidence. If you dodge it one more time, we are done! Its a simple question a scientific principle, so if it's beyond you then just admit it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

and prove all that too.

PM me and I will, meet my condition and then no problem.

I am not evading anything, if i was unable to prove I would not make the claim, like most religions would never dare make such a claim.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

and prove all that too.

PM me and I will, meet my condition and then no problem.

I am not evading anything, if i was unable to prove I would not make the claim, like most religions would never dare make such a claim.

Add to that this thread has already been derailed by you, shadow and becky several times. Shadow can't get over homosexuality, becky thinks everything is upside down, you sit in corners to pounce on any thread remotely Islamic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

For years here, I have seen many religious speak out against homosexuals, and each time others asked them did they ever try and talk to a gay person to at least gain any real understanding? ....The answer was all the same – it was like an automated reply and it went like this ->> I have gay friends, I have spoken to gays...

.... I have seen these same answers over and over.........and to prove it, I could easily direct you to several threads that do in fact contain those exact same answers - "we have gay friends" ect ....straight up lol I personally have never believed a single word of it...and I don't have to...

Think about it, if you were gay would you befriend someone that followed a faith that condemned you to death? Would you make friends with someone who totally disapproved of your lifestyle?..... I know I sure wouldn't

Now...look at what you just said – you have already made your mind up <<-- that is correct, he and others like him have already made their own minds up from what they follow in their faith, they have no interest in actually getting to know the facts behind homosexuals, they will argue back and forth until someone is blue in the face..and will refuse to show any real understanding...

I posted up a lot of facts on gays to him previously... in his reply to me...he had cut out a lot of my post he didn't care to read...and just went back to his own ignorance about gays.STILL showing no understand and showing signs of someone who just doesn't want to understand..and this is the SAME person that when any of us gave view on Islam and their laws... he ranted saying we are just ignorant..and complained saying we never did any real research, we just don't want to understand..... do you see a pattern here? LOL.

I agree with you. Most of those point I've tried to get across to him and he's just... thick headed.

Basically he's made up his mind and he'll ignore anything unless it agrees with him and he freely admit that's what a true shariah state would do as well.

I certainly know I wouldn't be friends with someone if their religion condemned me (and vise versa) so how he is and how they are, mystifise me.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beckys_Mom

I agree with you. Most of those point I've tried to get across to him and he's just... thick headed.

The smarter thing to do is just ignore it all... I find when I ignore rantings from anyone...it annoys them more lol..so hey just igonore the ranting...and carry on discussing your views with others who are not going to jump down your throat?? Your choice...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

The smarter thing to do is just ignore it all... I find when I ignore rantings from anyone...it annoys them more lol..so hey just igonore the ranting...and carry on discussing your views with others who are not going to jump down your throat?? Your choice...

Yeah good point. Sad thing is he seems a pretty smart guy, but not smart enough to see that he's wrong.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

I agree with you. Most of those point I've tried to get across to him and he's just... thick headed.

Basically he's made up his mind and he'll ignore anything unless it agrees with him and he freely admit that's what a true shariah state would do as well.

I certainly know I wouldn't be friends with someone if their religion condemned me (and vise versa) so how he is and how they are, mystifise me.

So now I'm thick headed for not allowing you to impose your view on me, don't worry I'm replying to your hollow BS earlier.

So for me to say to becky catch up on over 40 pages on the gay ****, is thick headed. We frigging exhausted the topic, if she in capable of catch up, then you help her.

Facts about homosexuality, there is a laugh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beckys_Mom

Yeah good point. Sad thing is he seems a pretty smart guy, but not smart enough to see that he's wrong.

Yup it's always wiser to rise above it... trust me lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

So now I'm thick headed for not allowing you to impose your view on me, don't worry I'm replying to your hollow BS earlier.

So for me to say to becky catch up on over 40 pages on the gay ****, is thick headed. We frigging exhausted the topic, if she in capable of catch up, then you help her.

Facts about homosexuality, there is a laugh.

There you go, everything is BS to you. Don't believe in your concept of god? Bs! don't believe homosexuality is a sin? Bs! Sufism is bs! If someone doesn't agree with you or your religion it's bs, even if they make a structured arguement.

I don't ask, or expect, you to reply to my 'hollow bs' as you like to call it. (Which is incredibly tiresome.)

No, I meant you're thick headed for talking to your friends and it not changing your opinion one what. Why? Because your religion is so deeply ingrained and you'd made your choice beforehand. You didn't listen to them or learn anything because you'd already decided. You know these people for years and you don't really care what they have to say on this issue. Some friend you are.

Facts about it: it's not a sin or immoral. It's not natural to you becuse you are straight. Gay people didn't choose to be gay, straight people didn't choose to be straight. Why would anyone choose to be gay when there's religions and people that hate them as much as yours does? You focus more on the act of gay sex then you do on the fact that two men or two women loving ech other is just as valid as a man and a oman doing it. Another fact on homosexuality: religions have (and still do) been holding back gay people for centuries. Well their time is coming to an end. Attacking a defenseless minority is pointless and becoming unacceptable, as it should be. Religion isn't exempt from that.

In the instance of gay people your religion is just like bullies with power. But of course, it's beyond your understanding, despite you having gay 'friends' (which you may only wheel out to say 'I'm not hompophobic! How can I be I have gay friends?' while you still spout it's immorality).

Edited by shadowhive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markprice

So now I'm thick headed for not allowing you to impose your view on me, don't worry I'm replying to your hollow BS earlier.

So for me to say to becky catch up on over 40 pages on the gay ****, is thick headed. We frigging exhausted the topic, if she in capable of catch up, then you help her.

Facts about homosexuality, there is a laugh.

You posted pages and pages of giant walls of text with all the quotes screwed up--for lack of a simple / of quote]-- that few bothered to read through the first time (do you do that on purpose?). So you can't expect anyone to go back through all that. That's why I suggested you respond to your claims of proof etc. in 200 words or less; it would give you a chance to make a real statement that people could actually read and quote, but you demand your "ultimate truth" be in super secret PM's = WTF.

Anyway, I was only humoring you; I doubt you have the knowledge to back up your claims, so I wont hold my breath.

Edited by markprice

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

You posted pages and pages of giant walls of text with all the quotes screwed up--for lack of a simple / of quote]-- that few bothered to read through the first time (do you do that on purpose?). So you can't expect anyone to go back through all that. That's why I suggested you respond to your claims of proof etc. in 200 words or less; it would give you a chance to make a real statement that people could actually read and quote, but you demand your "ultimate truth" be in super secret PM's = WTF.

Anyway, I was only humoring you; I doubt you have the knowledge to back up your claims, so I wont hold my breath.

To be fair the quote thing (which I had issues with too) is the board's fault for not letting you do more then a few quotes.

Edited by shadowhive

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
markprice

How will you know it's proven beyond any doubt. Let me give you an example the Quran talks about the origin if the universe, how and what criterion will you use to judge the evidence. If you dodge it one more time, we are done! Its a simple question a scientific principle, so if it's beyond you then just admit it.

People have been talking about the origin of the universe--and fairly acurately--since before Moses. Infact Hermes/Thoth is believed to have taught Moses in person, so nothing new in the Koran about that, I bet.

What is this hang up on criterion? You used the "criterion" to "eliminate" the rest of the religions so I will do the same to yours... If you fail to make a case then yes we are done, Lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Beckys_Mom

Anyway, I was only humoring you; I doubt you have the knowledge to back up your claims, so I wont hold my breath.

Normally if someone seriously has actual facts to back up their claims...trust me they would proudly post them up for all to read... and not hide it

Edited by Beckys_Mom

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

You went to the source, yes, but you didn't do it honestly did you? You'd already made up your mind. You decided before you went to talk to them 'homosexuality is unatural, I believe that and my religion says so' so you weren't really listening to them. Because it doesn't agree with your religion (or your natural deposition crap) you don't want to know. sure you listen to them and you debate, but it doesn't sink in. If you had talked and really, truly listened then you would have learned something and it might have swayed you. But your belief is so deeeply ingrained you'd made your decision and that's that.

So now not only do you know my mates, you were there and witness to the whole context! Let me put in perspective for you, I used to live in London, living an irreligious lifestyle, I had several friends who were gay female and male, colleaues, friends, university associates. I partied with them, drank with them, took drugs with them, but homosexuality never interested me, nor did they try and impose it like you. I had no religious affiliations nor any Islamic knowledge. I lived a secular lifestyle, never held the opinion I do now. I used ask them, talk with them debate with them, in order to understand their position. All while I partied with them, lunched with them, shared lectures with them, lived in same halls of residence with them. So everything you ranted above is pure conjecture and speculation. I had no reason to detest homosexuality, nor did I hate homosexuals and still don't, I detest the lifestyle the act etc. So my experience was entirely in the early years from a atheistic, secularist, irreligious perspective, pretty much like yourself. So the views I hold now are shaped by this experience and my experience and knowledge as a Muslim and that's that! This subject is exhausted, over 40 pages cover it, my stance your stance are clear, Islamic stance and the majority global stance is clear, secular stance and irreligious stance is clear. I don't think any thing else further can be added. Anyone needing to catch up, should do so.

You've even said outright that if it was proven natural with science then you (and your whole religion) would ignore and reject it out of hand because it doesn't fit with your beliefs. Says alot huh?

That's is based in my faith in the Quran as gods word, which is infallible, therefore I don't believe it will ever be proven to be natural, the very fact it needs that substantiation shows it's not natural. That's my personal opinion and I don't believe it will happen, good luck!

Tell me how can I objective study something that condemns me? You've said it does, so why should I go to the source and read how I'm sinning and will burn in hell? I've no interest in that.

Easy, they call it the academic approach where you detach from your emotions and study something objectively to understand it. Even if it does not agree with your opinion knowledge in order to understand or even refute, leads to tolerance. Choosing to be ignorant on a matter you oppose then speak it about it with certainty is nonsense, because you have no knowledge base for the point or thing you oppose. If you have no interest in it then why you debate about it. Why you try and impose you view on it. That goes with anything, whether you agree with it or not, you should understand atleast, by studying or analysing the source.

And as you have said, Islam itself holds a prejudice. But when I say it's holding it back, you say I'm mistaken. Yet you readily admit that under 'perfect' shariah it'd be either reform or be discarded (not only that, but you'd be pefectly happy for them to do that as well). Not much of a choice or very 'tolerant'.

Holding what back, homosexuality, but it also holds back hetro fornication and adultery and crime. That's it's value system, simple. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a sovereign right of any nation to live according to their own values and system, as long as it does not impact or impose itself on another sovereign nation. I am not gonna go in circles about allowing homosexuality in a society that does not agree with it. Just get over it, their country, their land their law. When in Rome live as the Romans. 

Like others have said, you didn't choose to be straight, I didn't choose to be bi and people don't choose to be gay. They have a choice and that's being honest with themselves. While you think the questioning part of it is just  because it's going against the natural deposition it's not. It comes from a genuine feeling of 'what the hell is happening' mixed with 'everyone around me is straight why aren't I?' So the questioning is more about being different from everyone else, rather then being against your internal deposition. But hey, you debated with gay people face to face so you should understand this right?

Been through this I'm bored, skip back through the 40 pages for an answer we been here before. You question it because socially it not normal, mentally it's not normal (hence the confusion), you question your natural disposition, whether you like it or not. You then make a choice.

People bring up these places because they're scared. The 'war' and the terrorism has made them scared and, as I said, fear leads people making poor choices.

Scared of what, which of these places has invaded you, or imposed their way of life on you. It's the other way around, their scared of you and bombs and the bullets. 

I spent my whole life at school being bullied. People were prejudiced and bigotted against me, enough that they'd call me names or physically hurt me. I survived it and came through with this: accept me as I am because I'm not going to change.

Who said change? I accept you as you are? Alternatively, you cannot accept my opinions, Muslims and Islam. The sheer audacity and cheek, when have I told you to change, or try to convert you!

Your religion wants me to. It wants me to 'reform'. I've not done anything wrong. I've not gone out and raped or killed anyone, yet it wants me to reform anyway like I have. No thanks.

My religion has not told you to reform nor anyone else, alternatively it's the leaders and supporters like you who are forcing Muslims to reform to your way of life. My religion is about piety righteousness modesty and chastity. Your way of life is alternative to that, that's your choice. There is no compulsion. In your society we live according to it's laws and tolerate it's values even if we don't agree, we respect it. In our society you ought to respect it's traditions values customs religion and law, even if you disagree with it. Been here before not doing it again.

I didn't survive high school just to get a religion or it's holy book (supposedly written by adults who should no better but you wouldn't think it) to try and make me do that. I'm not going to read the Quran anymore then I'm going to go to one of those bullies houses for tea.

Just goes to show the level of devilish intent and dishonesty. You wish to debate about or even against something on which you have 0 knowledge. That's laughable as an approach and no way honest, ignorant but not honest.

That's the whole point though. I don't know what god wants. I could sudy every religion that exists and ever has existed and I'd still be no closer to god then I am now. 

That's point, you will never study anything that does not support you view or your whim, so your excuse is a flimsy one at best! You say god should be like this like that, have no concept of god, nor knowledge of religions. You don't question if there is a god what would he want, instead you question if there is a god, how can he conform to my thinking. Odd! Lifetime study is not required. 

What you see as a holy book is just a book to me, it's just words.

If that's the case, then produce something like it or that which exceeds it. What brings you to the above conclusion, just simple experience with one religion and what you have heard and read. You assume that all books are like. That's your mistake.

Religion is all about putting words into god's mouth and assuming to know what god wants. You said it yourself, god's concept of time could be very different to us and a million years could be an eyeblink to it. Now that's a statement you've made. 

No you made or someone else made that statement and I said and what if it is? Still waiting on the reply. Religion is a way of life, whether it's Islam or secularism, the latter is your religion, your criterion for judgment.

Yet at the same time you want me to accept god cares about what each of us does in our lifetime, which compared to a million years is nothing.

Here we see the lack of comprehension of concept of god. If god is all knowing all seeing all hearing. Then these things are simple for him, to know care help or guide each one of us. That's the nature of god, that's what god is, able to have power over everything, know everything. This is why study is a good things it's leads to understanding even if you disagree with it in the end. 

Our concept's of god differ and therein lies the problem. I don't know or understand god and that is honest truth. You, however claim to and want me to bend to fit your belief that god is not only the creator of the universe and observe, but that same god controls practically every aspect. I find that incredible hard to believe.

I'm not bending you to anything, but you giving you a constant concept of god which is throughout most religions. Creator, sustainer, cherisher, observer, everything.

So do you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to live my life, one day at a time. I'm going to be as good as I can be, but I'm not going to apologise if I think about two men together or sex in general. If I have a drink I'm responsible enough to do it at home. If I have sex then I'm responsible for that too. If I don't like something then I don't do it, but I'm not going to stop other people from doing it on a whim. I don't hide behind god or a religion for anything, or use an excuse to do either good or evil. 

That's good for you! I never said don't. Just don't impose that lifestyle on others.

I'm happy with who I am and, if I do come to religon, it'd be by my own choice (as you constantly say, there's no complusion). So why would I choose one that would reject me from the get go? So one of my main criterea for coming to a religion is that it's going to accept me and not force me to be straight just because of some foolish holier then thou moral code.

Your criteria is for you and that's fine, now go apply it on religions, most will disagree with you including Islam, but atleast you will understand them, even if you disagree with them. That's a good thing. How do they reject you from the get go. You can still be immoral, depraved, fornicator, adulterer oh and of course be homosexual, but still be a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh Shia, etc etc. You will just be a bad Jew or Muslim or Christian or Hindu. These are forgivable sins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

People have been talking about the origin of the universe--and fairly acurately--since before Moses. Infact Hermes/Thoth is believed to have taught Moses in person, so nothing new in the Koran about that, I bet.

What is this hang up on criterion? You used the "criterion" to "eliminate" the rest of the religions so I will do the same to yours... If you fail to make a case then yes we are done, Lol.

Enlighten me about those facts above!

Criterion is important, before you judge something you need to understand what you will judge and with what. So I asked how will judge the bigbang from moses, hermes or the Quran. Please show me the criterion and I will show the proof.

You dodged again, if there is no criterion applicable to the moses and Hermes claim and the criterion has to be same for the Quran, then no reply.

Oh and we can use other scripture to show how they mention the origin of the universe and how modern science confirms it or rejects it. Firstly I would love to see the Moses, Hermes and thoth view on it.

Edited by Lion6969

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

Normally if someone seriously has actual facts to back up their claims...trust me they would proudly post them up for all to read... and not hide it

I'm not hiding anything I am requesting the criterion you will use to judge then present my evidence accordingly. I can't present my evidence and then let you use star trek or a documentary as your criterion to judge the evidence.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

You posted pages and pages of giant walls of text with all the quotes screwed up--for lack of a simple / of quote]-- that few bothered to read through the first time (do you do that on purpose?). So you can't expect anyone to go back through all that. That's why I suggested you respond to your claims of proof etc. in 200 words or less; it would give you a chance to make a real statement that people could actually read and quote, but you demand your "ultimate truth" be in super secret PM's = WTF.

Anyway, I was only humoring you; I doubt you have the knowledge to back up your claims, so I wont hold my breath.

Oh no I won't present it via PM only, I just want your criterion by PM so when I present my proof, and it complies with criterion and proves you wrong, if you change your colours then I can expose you by showing what you said you will use as criterion for judgment.

I won't hold my breath, because like said you would not know what proof is even if it was slapping you in the face.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

So now not only do you know my mates, you were there and witness to the whole context! Let me put in perspective for you, I used to live in London, living an irreligious lifestyle, I had several friends who were gay female and male, colleaues, friends, university associates. I partied with them, drank with them, took drugs with them, but homosexuality never interested me, nor did they try and impose it like you. I had no religious affiliations nor any Islamic knowledge. I lived a secular lifestyle, never held the opinion I do now. I used ask them, talk with them debate with them, in order to understand their position. All while I partied with them, lunched with them, shared lectures with them, lived in same halls of residence with them. So everything you ranted above is pure conjecture and speculation. I had no reason to detest homosexuality, nor did I hate homosexuals and still don't, I detest the lifestyle the act etc. So my experience was entirely in the early years from a atheistic, secularist, irreligious perspective, pretty much like yourself. So the views I hold now are shaped by this experience and my experience and knowledge as a Muslim and that's that! This subject is exhausted, over 40 pages cover it, my stance your stance are clear, Islamic stance and the majority global stance is clear, secular stance and irreligious stance is clear. I don't think any thing else further can be added. Anyone needing to catch up, should do so.

I get that you don't like the act. I've not asked you to bend over while someone takes you or even watch gay porn. What I have askdd is that you consider the people, which you don't. You constantly say homosexuals have a 'lifestyle' when they don't. You'd think you hanging out with them as much as you claim you would have learned something from them, but you've not.

That's is based in my faith in the Quran as gods word, which is infallible, therefore I don't believe it will ever be proven to be natural, the very fact it needs that substantiation shows it's not natural. That's my personal opinion and I don't believe it will happen, good luck!

It only needs to be to prove it to morons like you. I don't need proof it's natural, because I know it is. You do.

Easy, they call it the academic approach where you detach from your emotions and study something objectively to understand it. Even if it does not agree with your opinion knowledge in order to understand or even refute, leads to tolerance. Choosing to be ignorant on a matter you oppose then speak it about it with certainty is nonsense, because you have no knowledge base for the point or thing you oppose. If you have no interest in it then why you debate about it. Why you try and impose you view on it. That goes with anything, whether you agree with it or not, you should understand atleast, by studying or analysing the source.

It's hard to take an academic approach against something that hates you with no good reason.

Holding what back, homosexuality, but it also holds back hetro fornication and adultery and crime. That's it's value system, simple. You don't have to agree with it, but it's a sovereign right of any nation to live according to their own values and system, as long as it does not impact or impose itself on another sovereign nation. I am not gonna go in circles about allowing homosexuality in a society that does not agree with it. Just get over it, their country, their land their law. When in Rome live as the Romans. 

Again, you bring up the other thing. I said homosexuality only. Why you insist always bring up the others in the same breath is beyond me.

Been through this I'm bored, skip back through the 40 pages for an answer we been here before. You question it because socially it not normal, mentally it's not normal (hence the confusion), you question your natural disposition, whether you like it or not. You then make a choice.

I did say socially it's not 'normal'. But the rest, as you say, is BS.

The only choice you have is to live honestly or not. you're straight, but if you lived as a gay man that would be a lie dishonest and unnatural. If a gay man pretends to be straight then that's dishonest and unnatural.

Scared of what, which of these places has invaded you, or imposed their way of life on you. It's the other way around, their scared of you and bombs and the bullets.

Most people in the West had no opinion on the Middle East. Then this little thing happened called 9/11 and it whipped everyone into a frenzy of fear and hate. If you don't get that was the catalyst of a lot of people's fear then you've been blind.

Who said change? I accept you as you are? Alternatively, you cannot accept my opinions, Muslims and Islam. The sheer audacity and cheek, when have I told you to change, or try to convert you!

I never said you tried, but your position is pretty clear.

My religion has not told you to reform nor anyone else, alternatively it's the leaders and supporters like you who are forcing Muslims to reform to your way of life. My religion is about piety righteousness modesty and chastity. Your way of life is alternative to that, that's your choice. There is no compulsion. In your society we live according to it's laws and tolerate it's values even if we don't agree, we respect it. In our society you ought to respect it's traditions values customs religion and law, even if you disagree with it. Been here before not doing it again.

If I was a Muslim then that's exactly what I'd be told to do.

I am forever thankful I live in secular society and not a Muslim one.

That's point, you will never study anything that does not support you view or your whim, so your excuse is a flimsy one at best! You say god should be like this like that, have no concept of god, nor knowledge of religions. You don't question if there is a god what would he want, instead you question if there is a god, how can he conform to my thinking. Odd! Lifetime study is not required.

How is that different from you, who wouldn't support anything that doesn't support your view?

I question if there is a god and what he could possibly want from us. Answer is simple: nothing.

If that's the case, then produce something like it or that which exceeds it. What brings you to the above conclusion, just simple experience with one religion and what you have heard and read. You assume that all books are like. That's your mistake.

It's belief in a religion that makes it's text holy. If I was a Muslim then yes, I'd think it was holy. But I'm not. I don't see the Quran or Bible any more holy then the dictionary. All books are different and mean different things to different people, yet they are all the same: collections of words on paper.

Here we see the lack of comprehension of concept of god. If god is all knowing all seeing all hearing. Then these things are simple for him, to know care help or guide each one of us. That's the nature of god, that's what god is, able to have power over everything, know everything. This is why study is a good things it's leads to understanding even if you disagree with it in the end.

I've made my point about the universe and how small and insignificant we are. I'm not going through all that again.

I'm not bending you to anything, but you giving you a constant concept of god which is throughout most religions. Creator, sustainer, cherisher, observer, everything.

And I have said can accept god creating the universe and observing, but not each one of us personally. You say god set up certain systems for the universe to work, but at the same time you think he has to meddle.

Your criteria is for you and that's fine, now go apply it on religions, most will disagree with you including Islam, but atleast you will understand them, even if you disagree with them. That's a good thing. How do they reject you from the get go. You can still be immoral, depraved, fornicator, adulterer oh and of course be homosexual, but still be a Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh Shia, etc etc. You will just be a bad Jew or Muslim or Christian or Hindu. These are forgivable sins.

And there it is. There's the rejection. I'm not a bad person, but there you are. If I'm bi and a member of any of religion, then just because I'm bi I'm a bad member of that religion. And you wonder why I'm not religious.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Lion6969

I get that you don't like the act. I've not asked you to bend over while someone takes you or even watch gay porn. What I have askdd is that you consider the people, which you don't. You constantly say homosexuals have a 'lifestyle' when they don't. You'd think you hanging out with them as much as you claim you would have learned something from them, but you've not.

I say they have a lifestyle based on my experience with them in my irreligious days. Homosexuals have their own bars clubs and haunts, certain trends lingo and customs. First hand experience, it's a lifestyle and that's that! How dare you say I learnt nothing from them or about them, just because I did not conform to your view or theirs does not mean I did not learn.

It only needs to be to prove it to morons like you. I don't need proof it's natural, because I know it is. You do.

So now I'm thick headed and a moron......, I don't know if I should continue my dialogue with you any further. I give you benefit of the doubt.  So why is the gay community, and some sectors in the science community trying to prove it's natural. I think that says it all.

It's hard to take an academic approach against something that hates you with no good reason.

No it's not, that's what honest people do, research credible authentic sources, regardless of the hate or opinions they may harbour about it. 

Again, you bring up the other thing. I said homosexuality only. Why you insist always bring up the others in the same breath is beyond me.

I will bring it up every time, because shariah addresses both hetro and homo fornication. 

I did say socially it's not 'normal'. But the rest, as you say, is BS. 

The only choice you have is to live honestly or not. you're straight, but if you lived as a gay man that would be a lie dishonest and unnatural. If a gay man pretends to be straight then that's dishonest and unnatural.

I'm straight, I know what homosexuality is, it did not convince mr when I was irreligious and it don't convince me now. I think it's dishonest to go against your natural disposition, that's why you question your sexuality.

Most people in the West had no opinion on the Middle East. Then this little thing happened called 9/11 and it whipped everyone into a frenzy of fear and hate. If you don't get that was the catalyst of a lot of people's fear then you've been blind.

Islam does not constitute the middle east see at your level of ignorance and knowledge, subconsciously you have associate Islam with the middle east and even terrorism clearly showing that your views are entirely shaped by the media. 9/11 did bring your attention to the middle east, but Islam and Muslims have been much maligned prior to this. Obviously the media has blinded you.

If I was a Muslim then that's exactly what I'd be told to do.

If you were a practicing Muslim then you would not be gay, if you were not a practicing Muslim but just by name, then you could possibly be a gay Muslim, but in a shariah state as a Muslim you will know that your lifestyle or the act of homosexuality is forbidden and outlawed, therefore would refrain, but if that was not possible, they can live else where. 

I am forever thankful I live in secular society and not a Muslim one.

Good for you, you even said you prefer crime over no crime. That's good for you. I'm happy for you.

How is that different from you, who wouldn't support anything that doesn't support your view?

It's different because I accept your view, but you have been bent on a campaign to impose your way of life on me, you have no respect for another opinion or way of life. You want everyone to accept homosexuality, where as I have not asked you to accept Islam, but simply said respect the sovereignty of another people and their right as to decide what they want to be ruled by and what type of society they envisage. You cannot accept this, I'm certain if you had power you would probably invade everywhere to impose homosexuality and your way of life.

I question if there is a god and what he could possibly want from us. Answer is simple: nothing. 

What proof do you have for that besides your conjecture.

It's belief in a religion that makes it's text holy. If I was a Muslim then yes, I'd think it was holy. But I'm not. I don't see the Quran or Bible any more holy then the dictionary. All books are different and mean different things to different people, yet they are all the same: collections of words on paper. 

Then produce something like it! I promise you if you do, Islam will be finished forever.

I've made my point about the universe and how small and insignificant we are. I'm not going through all that again.

And I have answered enough times and not going through it again. Does god not have the attributes of all knowing all hearing all caring?

And I have said  can accept god creating the universe and observing, but not each one of us personally. You say god set up certain systems for the universe to work, but at the same time you think he has to meddle.

What's harder to create a universe and sustain it observe it or us?

And there it is. There's the rejection. I'm not a bad person, but there you are. If I'm bi and a member of any of religion, then just because I'm bi I'm a bad member of that religion. And you wonder why I'm not religious.

According to those faiths you are, if you subscribe to one of those faiths. Then reject it's commands instruction and things to avoid. Then your sinful according to those faiths. It's irrelevant what you think.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
rationalchaos

You went to the source, yes, but you didn't do it honestly did you? You'd already made up your mind. You decided before you went to talk to them 'homosexuality is unatural, I believe that and my religion says so' so you weren't really listening to them. Because it doesn't agree with your religion (or your natural deposition crap) you don't want to know. sure you listen to them and you debate, but it doesn't sink in. If you had talked and really, truly listened then you would have learned something and it might have swayed you. But your belief is so deeeply ingrained you'd made your decision and that's that.

You've even said outright that if it was proven natural with science then you (and your whole religion) would ignore and reject it out of hand because it doesn't fit with your beliefs. Says alot huh?

Tell me how can I objective study something that condemns me? You've said it does, so why should I go to the source and read how I'm sinning and will burn in hell? I've no interest in that.

And as you have said, Islam itself holds a prejudice. But when I say it's holding it back, you say I'm mistaken. Yet you readily admit that under 'perfect' shariah it'd be either reform or be discarded (not only that, but you'd be pefectly happy for them to do that as well). Not much of a choice or very 'tolerant'.

Like others have said, you didn't choose to be straight, I didn't choose to be bi and people don't choose to be gay. They have a choice and that's being honest with themselves. While you think the questioning part of it is just because it's going against the natural deposition it's not. It comes from a genuine feeling of 'what the hell is happening' mixed with 'everyone around me is straight why aren't I?' So the questioning is more about being different from everyone else, rather then being against your internal deposition. But hey, you debated with gay people face to face so you should understand this right?

People bring up these places because they're scared. The 'war' and the terrorism has made them scared and, as I said, fear leads people making poor choices.

I spent my whole life at school being bullied. People were prejudiced and bigotted against me, enough that they'd call me names or physically hurt me. I survived it and came through with this: accept me as I am because I'm not going to change.

Your religion wants me to. It wants me to 'reform'. I've not done anything wrong. I've not gone out and raped or killed anyone, yet it wants me to reform anyway like I have. No thanks. I didn't survive high school just to get a religion or it's holy book (supposedly written by adults who should no better but you wouldn't think it) to try and make me do that. I'm not going to read the Quran anymore then I'm going to go to one of those bullies houses for tea.

That's the whole point though. I don't know what god wants. I could sudy every religion that exists and ever has existed and I'd still be no closer to god then I am now.

What you see as a holy book is just a book to me, it's just words.

Religion is all about putting words into god's mouth and assuming to know what god wants. You said it yourself, god's concept of time could be very different to us and a million years could be an eyeblink to it. Now that's a statement you've made. Yet at the same time you want me to accept god cares about what each of us does in our lifetime, which compared to a million years is nothing.

Our concept's of god differ and therein lies the problem. I don't know or understand god and that is honest truth. You, however claim to and want me to bend to fit your belief that god is not only the creator of the universe and observe, but that same god controls practically every aspect. I find that incredible hard to believe.

So do you know what I'm going to do? I'm just going to live my life, one day at a time. I'm going to be as good as I can be, but I'm not going to apologise if I think about two men together or sex in general. If I have a drink I'm responsible enough to do it at home. If I have sex then I'm responsible for that too. If I don't like something then I don't do it, but I'm not going to stop other people from doing it on a whim. I don't hide behind god or a religion for anything, or use an excuse to do either good or evil.

I'm happy with who I am and, if I do come to religon, it'd be by my own choice (as you constantly say, there's no complusion). So why would I choose one that would reject me from the get go? So one of my main criterea for coming to a religion is that it's going to accept me and not force me to be straight just because of some foolish holier then thou moral code.

This whole topic of homosexuality has been waaaay OVER discussed...but I can finish it in one short saying ' Adam and EVE not Adam and STEVE'

That completely covers how Muslims feel about gays. End of story. Muslims aren't going to change their minds, they cant be retaught, or relearned and they will never accept homosexuality. If that upsets you, makes you sad, forces you to be mad, or even makes you feel suicidal...oh well, get over it.

There are so many other wonderful debates that we could be reading!! For example: why Islam doesn't accept homosexuality....OH WAIT>>>> OH MY GAAAWWWD>>> WE ALREADY HAVE 62 BLOODY PAGES OF THAT!!!!

Seriously...62 pages of this is just plain riDONKulous...can we pleeeeeaseeeee NEVER go back to the subject again for the love of God/Allah/buddah/krishna/jehovah/Bhagwaan/rama/Yahweh/Shen/and of course PETE!!!

Thank you!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
shadowhive

I say they have a lifestyle based on my experience with them in my irreligious days. Homosexuals have their own bars clubs and haunts, certain trends lingo and customs. First hand experience, it's a lifestyle and that's that! How dare you say I learnt nothing from them or about them, just because I did not conform to your view or theirs does not mean I did not learn.

Of course they have their own bars. If you went to a regular bar and hit on a guy it could lead to trouble. If you went to a gay one then there's no chance of that. It's like there's s and m bars or restaurants that use kosher meat etc. You didn't learn in that still focus on the act and don't care about the people.

So now I'm thick headed and a moron......, I don't know if I should continue my dialogue with you any further. I give you benefit of the doubt.  So why is the gay community, and some sectors in the science community trying to prove it's natural. I think that says it all.

I think I've explained it. Religious people, like you, think it's not. So we have to prove it to prove you wrong, else you won't accept it.

I will bring it up every time, because shariah addresses both hetro and homo fornication.

Well if you're going to do that, then I will bring up again this: hetros have an option out of fornication marriage. Gay people don't. Unless of course they change and live a lie.

I'm straight, I know what homosexuality is, it did not convince mr when I was irreligious and it don't convince me now. I think it's dishonest to go against your natural disposition, that's why you question your sexuality.

It's dishonest to be straight if you're gay. I know what my natural dispostion is. Like religion, it is not the same as yours.

Islam does not constitute the middle east see at your level of ignorance and knowledge, subconsciously you have associate Islam with the middle east and even terrorism clearly showing that your views are entirely shaped by the media. 9/11 did bring your attention to the middle east, but Islam and Muslims have been much maligned prior to this. Obviously the media has blinded you.

We were discussing why people bring up so much hate and I was saying why. I didn't say I agreed with it, I was just saying it like it is.

If you were a practicing Muslim then you would not be gay, if you were not a practicing Muslim but just by name, then you could possibly be a gay Muslim, but in a shariah state as a Muslim you will know that your lifestyle or the act of homosexuality is forbidden and outlawed, therefore would refrain, but if that was not possible, they can live else where.

Again, makes me thankful I'm not a Muslim.

Those societies must've lost a lot of good people that way.

Good for you, you even said you prefer crime over no crime. That's good for you. I'm happy for you.

Not this again. I said I prefer secularism to shariah. I prefer the secular definition of crime to the shariah one, were fornication, homosexuality and adultery are crimes. That doesn't, however mean I want more crime. I do want crime stopped, but not those things that fit into shariah's definition only.

The perfect shariah you state has good intentions, I'm sure it doesn't intend to hurt anyone (unlike the corrupt versions of it now), but it's not somewhere I't want to be even if it existed.

It's different because I accept your view, but you have been bent on a campaign to impose your way of life on me, you have no respect for another opinion or way of life. You want everyone to accept homosexuality, where as I have not asked you to accept Islam, but simply said respect the sovereignty of another people and their right as to decide what they want to be ruled by and what type of society they envisage. You cannot accept this, I'm certain if you had power you would probably invade everywhere to impose homosexuality and your way of life.

How is acceptance imposing exactly?

If I had power I wouldn't do that. I'd use words, not weapons.

What proof do you have for that besides your conjecture.

What could an all powerful entity want from us? God gains nothing from our belief in it, following a religion, hell even being good to one another.

I assume you have some answer though.

Then produce something like it! I promise you if you do, Islam will be finished forever.

Every. Book. Is. Different. Therefore each one is different. Macbeth is different from the dictionary. The bible is different from the Quran. However the quran is still a book. It requires belief in it to make it something else. To Muslims it's a miracle and special. It's not to me. To Christians the bible is special, but again, it's their belief in that religion that makes it so.

So while you think the quran is special, you won't think anything else is.

And I have answered enough times and not going through it again. Does god not have the attributes of all knowing all hearing all caring?

All knowing, maybe. All hearing. Maybe. All caring. Unclear.

What's harder to create a universe and sustain it observe it or us?

We don't know do we? At least I'm honest enough to just say that.

Why bother having hetrosexual intercourse if it's not you or even your sperm and egg that creates a child? why does god HAVE to get involved with everything. By the same token God seems quite happy to let people suffer and die and isn't willing to intervene then.

According to those faiths you are, if you subscribe to one of those faiths. Then reject it's commands instruction and things to avoid. Then your sinful according to those faiths. It's irrelevant what you think.

Hence why I'm not a part of those faiths. Of course things are changing in those faiths, albeit slowly (religion always takes time playing catch up). Of course there's movements still clinging onto it being a sin, but really can you honestly tell me a single benefit to it? As I said (and you do too), majority of people are straight, they don't gain anything from homosexuality being a sin since they won't do it. Gay and bi people are the ones that lose out and are crushed.

Clinging to dogma gains nothing in the long run.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.