Einstein's theory of relativity works on a

[antonT]

Eliminate all time keeping devices and time itself

Substitute "uncalibrated existence"

Each twins heart rate is 60 beats per cell division on Earth

0ne twin instantly accelerates to just below the speed of light in his spaceship

From his frame of reference his heart rate is 60 beats per cell division

At that instant his earthly twin's own heart rate is also 60 beats per cell division from his earthly frame of reference

The astronaught orbits for a year at the same speed and then lands instantly

Now both twins have a heartbeat of 60 beats per cell division from an earthly frame of reference.

Both twins are one year older and still the same age having experienced an equal number of heart beats each.

IF the astronaught twin's heart rate was was slower than his brothers in reality, his physiology and metabolism would'nt survive the flight would it?

Edited October 1, 2010 by antonT

[antonT]

To recap:

Remember one twin is younger than his brother from an earthly reference frame when he returns. This means he now has now existed for less time than his brother. Where has this time gone?

We have got to balance the books. This time is accounted for by extending the time he spent in space. The only way this can be explained is if the time he spent in space was slowed down .

What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when approaching the speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?

.

[sepulchrave]

To recap:

Remember one twin is younger than his brother from an earthly reference frame when he returns. This means he now has now existed for less time than his brother. Where has this time gone?

We have got to balance the books. This time is accounted for by extending the time he spent in space. The only way this can be explained is if the time he spent in space was slowed down .

What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when approaching the speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?

.

Everything slows down when approaching the speed of light (from the perspective of an observer moving at a slower relative speed). This means:

• The twin's heart rate appears to slow down.
  
• The twin's eyes blink more slowly.
  
• The twin takes longer to digest food.
  
• The ATP molecules in the twin's cell break apart at a slower rate.
  
• Electron signal transfer across a cell membrane occurs at a slower rate.
  
• The thermal motion of atoms and molecules appears slower.
  
• The decay of radioactive isotopes or unstable subatomic particles takes longer.
  
• Hyperfine atomic transitions take longer to occur.
  
• Gluon-quark interactions in an atom occur at a slower rate.
  
• If the twin threw a mug at a wall, it would appear to shatter in slow motion.
  

I guess you could say it's not a matter of one twin aging "faster" or "slower": both twins age at the same rate relative to their environments. It is simply that the dynamics of one twin's environment are slower than the dynamics in the other twin's environment.

[Stellar]

What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when approaching the speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?

Yes. The biological system doesnt slow down, its time that slows down. The biological system doesnt "feel" any different.

Picture a movie thats put in slow motion. The characters, to you, are moving more slowly, and 5 minutes may have passed to you, but to the movie and all the characters on the screen, only 2 minutes have gone by. The characters in the movie slow down proportionally to how much the movie has slowed down.

[Mentalcase]

I feel that there are two types of time.

1) The type where the sun goes around the Earth

2) The biological passage of time (aging process, cell division etc)

I can imagine how gravity may affect a planetary orbit and hence affect "time". But how on Earth does gravity affect cell division or the aging process? How does travelling at say the speed of light affect ageing? Does not the biological process have to maintain a constant rythm in order to keep the organism alive?

Very good question!!

I think this might be the best way to explain it..

There are various ways in which a person could "travel into the future" in a limited sense: the person could set things up so that in a small amount of his own subjective time, a large amount of subjective time has passed for other people on Earth. For example, an observer might take a trip away from the Earth and back at relativistic velocities, with the trip only lasting a few years according to the observer's own clocks, and return to find that thousands of years had passed on Earth. It should be noted, though, that according to relativity there is no objective answer to the question of how much time "really" passed during the trip; it would be equally valid to say that the trip had lasted only a few years or that the trip had lasted thousands of years, depending on your choice of reference frame.

Source

Oh and..

Time Dilation

[Persia]

When Mr Einstein read some replies ... --->

Just kiddin' .

[Mentalcase]

Traveling at a such and such constant speed will get you this far, this fast. A person, leaving at the same time but, at a slower constant speed will get there at such and such time after you do. It would have takin him the same amount of years to get to you, as you aged him in the process of traveling faster. Your natural processes will be effected by gravity, electromagnetism, radiation, matter, dark matter, so many many other phenom. Calculations of these things boggle the mind. It's the true elixir of science. The complications of a simple design. Paradoxes abound.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Mentalcase

[Mentalcase]

When Mr Einstein read some replies ... --->

Just kiddin' .

haha, I think that all the time.

[Lcvec]

To recap:

Remember one twin is younger than his brother from an earthly reference frame when he returns. This means he now has now existed for less time than his brother. Where has this time gone?

We have got to balance the books. This time is accounted for by extending the time he spent in space. The only way this can be explained is if the time he spent in space was slowed down .

What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when approaching the speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?

.

Just speculating here but I don't think they would die because of that. As sepulchrave said, everything would just slow down but it doesn't mean your body wouldn't work properly. Also, I don't think it would mean he existed for less time than his brother, just that he experienced it in a different way. I think the point here is that we're all in the same reference frame only because we're in the same planet, speed and being affected by earth's gravity, while someone travelling at near light speed would be in a different reference frame because of the different conditions. There's no such thing as missing time, just different experiences...I think Stellar's example makes it easier to understand

[antonT]

Ah ha!

The clock on the twins spaceship shows that x hours less have passed onboard than his brothers clock on Earth

This is a physical manifestation of time slowing down is it not?

Everything slows down when approaching the speed of light (from the perspective of an observer moving at a slower relative speed). This means:

• The twin's heart rate appears to slow down.
• The twin's eyes blink more slowly.
• The twin takes longer to digest food.
• The ATP molecules in the twin's cell break apart at a slower rate.
• Electron signal transfer across a cell membrane occurs at a slower rate.
• The thermal motion of atoms and molecules appears slower.
• The decay of radioactive isotopes or unstable subatomic particles takes longer.
• Hyperfine atomic transitions take longer to occur.
• Gluon-quark interactions in an atom occur at a slower rate.
• If the twin threw a mug at a wall, it would appear to shatter in slow motion.

I guess you could say it's not a matter of one twin aging "faster" or "slower": both twins age at the same rate relative to their environments. It is simply that the dynamics of one twin's environment are slower than the dynamics in the other twin's environment.

But is it only that? As the hands on the clock have physically moved, doesn't it mean all the things you have enumerated above must have physically happened ? As this is biologically impossible irrespective of time frames, does this not prove that near light space travel and hence time travel is impossible?

Edited October 3, 2010 by antonT

[Lcvec]

Ah ha!

The clock on the twins spaceship shows that x hours less have passed onboard than his brothers clock on Earth

This is a physical manifestation of time slowing down is it not?

But is it only that? As the hands on the clock have physically moved, doesn't it mean all the things you have enumerated above must have physically happened which means the astronaught twin must must be physically younger. As this is biologically impossible. Does this not prove that near light space travel and hence time travel is impossible?

Why is it impossible? If it takes "longer" for your body to let's say, digest food, then it also means your body wouldn't need it to happen as quickly as here on earth. I think if time slows down, then everything else does as well.

edit: just wanted to make it clear.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Lcvec

[sepulchrave]

But is it only that? As the hands on the clock have physically moved, doesn't it mean all the things you have enumerated above must have physically happened ? As this is biologically impossible irrespective of time frames, does this not prove that near light space travel and hence time travel is impossible?

Yes, all these things have physically happened. But I don't see why it is necessary for biology to operate on some `universal clock'.

As I've said before, your heart beat is a consequence of the dynamics of your cells. And those dynamics are a consequence of the dynamics of molecules... and so on down the chain. If you speed up or slow down all of these things, then of course people can age faster or slower than people in other reference frames.

[Leonardo]

Ah ha!

The clock on the twins spaceship shows that x hours less have passed onboard than his brothers clock on Earth

Of course, because each twin inhabits a different relativistic universe. There is no co-dependency between these universes, therefore there is no relevance in comparing their subjective properties, such as the passage of time.

[cluey]

Einsteins theory of relativity.....

the laws of mechanics and electromagetism are invariant between smoothly moving(inertial) frames......

consequence-the speed of light invariant between such frames............

[cluey]

To recap:

Remember one twin is younger than his brother from an earthly reference frame when he returns. This means he now has now existed for less time than his brother. Where has this time gone?

We have got to balance the books. This time is accounted for by extending the time he spent in space. The only way this can be explained is if the time he spent in space was slowed down .

What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when approaching the speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?

.

which is why fighter pilots can only experience short spurts of G-forces when traveling at the speed of light..........because yes...they would die.............so what it is it you want to know?????

[antonT]

which is why fighter pilots can only experience short spurts of G-forces when traveling at the speed of light..........because yes...they would die.............so what it is it you want to know?????

OK I will rephrase the question: "What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when travelling at the near speed of light speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?"

Thanks for pointing it out.

If you take just the heart for instance, such a drop in heartrate would result in breathlessness, followed by black outs and then eventually death I should imagine.

,,

[Stellar]

If you take just the heart for instance, such a drop in heartrate would result in breathlessness, followed by black outs and then eventually death I should imagine.

But, inside the spaceship, for example, the heartrate didnt drop... Everything in the spaceship slowed down relative to the stationary observer because time for the spaceship slowed down.

[Lcvec]

OK I will rephrase the question: "What I dispute is that biological systems slow down when travelling at the near speed of light speed of light. If they did they would die! Any thoughts anyone?"

Thanks for pointing it out.

If you take just the heart for instance, such a drop in heartrate would result in breathlessness, followed by black outs and then eventually death I should imagine.

,,

Sepulchrave answered that question on the last page...our body doesn't work on its own clock, if time is slowed down then everything slows down, so you wouldn't even need to breathe as often as you would in normal conditions here on earth.

[antonT]

Sepulchrave answered that question on the last page...our body doesn't work on its own clock, if time is slowed down then everything slows down, so you wouldn't even need to breathe as often as you would in normal conditions here on earth.

At the "virtual" but still slightly less speed of light every thing comes to a virtual standstill - lets say standstill for convenience. How would your observation work as even if we are asleep body metabolism etc continues at near normal pace. How would a human body cope with no blood circulation per se?

Wouldn't one die from the infection from the bacteria in one's gut for instance?

Edited October 4, 2010 by antonT

[Stellar]

At the "virtual" but still slightly less speed of light every thing comes to a virtual standstill - lets say standstill for convenience. How would your observation work as even if we are asleep body metabolism etc continues at near normal pace. How would a human body cope with no blood circulation per se?

At that point, the body, to the outside observer, is "frozen" in time. It does not age nor metabolise because those processes are also at a standstill.

[antonT]

At that point, the body, to the outside observer, is "frozen" in time. It does not age nor metabolise because those processes are also at a standstill.

Can we thus definitely conclude that the time spent in space by the astronaut twin was spent in slow motion from an earthly frame of reference - the reference of reality?

Does this conflict with the perception engendered by school science text books on the student? One may try to resolve the the idea of slow motion by saying it happened in the earth frame of reference only and that the perception of normality was maintained by the astronaut twin. But how can an observer in the spacecraft's FOR percieve the astronaut twin's behaviour as normal when the twin is virtually frozen in time?. Our brains are not wired that way. If the observer on the spacecraft saw the twin as moving normally would it not be a violation of the law of causality?

How can a biological system that has evolved over 4 billions years from microbe to man cope with a change in metabolism over night per say?...

[Stellar]

Can we thus definitely conclude that the time spent in space by the astronaut twin was spent in slow motion from an earthly frame of reference - the reference of reality?

Does this conflict with the perception engendered by school science text books on the student? One may try to resolve the the idea of slow motion by saying it happened in the earth frame of reference only and that the perception of normality was maintained by the astronaut twin. But how can an observer in the spacecraft's FOR percieve the astronaut twin's behaviour as normal when the twin is virtually frozen in time?. Our brains are not wired that way. If the observer on the spacecraft saw the twin as moving normally would it not be a violation of the law of causality?

How can a biological system that has evolved over 4 billions years from microbe to man cope with a change in metabolism over night per say?...

There is *no* change in metabolism. Thats the fundamental aspect youre not grasping, and until you grasp that, further discussion is pointless.

[antonT]

There is *no* change in metabolism. Thats the fundamental aspect youre not grasping, and until you grasp that, further discussion is pointless.

But the clock in the spaceship shows that time has slowed down. If this is the case metabolic time must have also slowed down.

Does this not suggest that for one twin to be younger than the other time must have passed in slow motion for the twin concerned?. For one twin to be younger than the other he must have existed in slow motion in relation to his brother. But this is so simplistic - simplistic because it's like saying night must follow day - something I would not expect from special relativity especially since a slow motion existence has never been experienced in the heavens or on Earth as far as I know..

[sepulchrave]

But the clock in the spaceship shows that time has slowed down. If this is the case metabolic time must have also slowed down.

Exactly. EVERYTHING slows down. "Metabolic time" is only measured relative to one's environment. If, according to a different frame of reference, one's environment has slowed down, then one's "metabolic time" has also slowed down; but, relative to that individual, everything in one's local environment - including one's self - appears normal.

Does this not suggest that for one twin to be younger than the other time must have passed in slow motion for the twin concerned?. For one twin to be younger than the other he must have existed in slow motion in relation to his brother. But this is so simplistic - simplistic because it's like saying night must follow day - something I would not expect from special relativity especially since a slow motion existence has never been experienced in the heavens or on Earth as far as I know..

You still think that a person can "tell" if they are in slow motion. They can't. Everything inside your spaceship appears to behave normally, it is only things outside the spaceship, that can only be experienced indirectly, that appear to be skewed.

This may clarify the situation (I hope, anyway): Let's say that one twin is on a spaceship moving at a constant velocity of 0.99c, and is passing close by the other twin at rest on a spacestation. BOTH twins will "see" the other twin aging in slow motion.

OBVIOUSLY it is a paradox for BOTH twins to be aging slower than the other. But it is not a paradox for both twins to observe the other twin aging slower.

(If one twin undergoes an acceleration, then this symmetry is broken and then one twin will indeed be older than the other. But at constant velocity both twins can only meet at one point in time and therefore it is irrelevant which is "older" than the other since time is a local quantity.)

[antonT]

Exactly. EVERYTHING slows down. "Metabolic time" is only measured relative to one's environment. If, according to a different frame of reference, one's environment has slowed down, then one's "metabolic time" has also slowed down; but, relative to that individual, everything in one's local environment - including one's self - appears normal.

You still think that a person can "tell" if they are in slow motion. They can't. Everything inside your spaceship appears to behave normally, it is only things outside the spaceship, that can only be experienced indirectly, that appear to be skewed.

There is only one element of special relativity that I'm not happy about and this is the question of reality in other words the earthly frame of reference. I am happy with every thing else. In the above sentence you agree that everything is in slow motion from an earthly frame of reference. You say everything inside the spaceships appears to behave normally. I say how, when our brains are wired to earthly criteria, possibly can we think we are behaving normally when, travelling at the near speed of light and our bodies are virtually pertified in time?

I have no problem with anything else

Edited October 9, 2010 by antonT