Understanding Hamas

[Erikl]

Well if you had bothered to read even the first article of this thread then you would have seen clearly (as I have went on to demonstrate) that Hamas haven't even came close to adopting their charter. See, if you had bothered to read the thread before spouting your opinion then you would already be informed. Hamas haven't adopted their charter. Haven't even come close.

Oh? I think they are implementing the things they've wrote perfectly. Suicide bombings in the name of Allah, transforming the Gaza Strip into a Taliban like regime. Fighting secular forces within Palestine itself (ie the PLO/Fatah), and even after given a piece of land, using it as a base to attack Israel to gain more land.

This is what happens, just look at the PLO (who called for the same thing) or the IRA (who basically said the same thing about the protestant British) - the charters become obsolete once they enter the political sphere, which Hamas have done.

Erm, it might have been the case with the the IRA and the PLO (although we all know Yasser Arafat planned and ordered attacks against Israeli civilians even after the Oslo Accords), but there are few exceptions between most European modern national movements, and the Palestinian case:

1. the IRA is seeking Irish independence over northern Ireland. They don't want to take over the entire British island and they don't claim London is the Irish capital.

2. Religion is only an instrument for them, used because the majority of Irish are Catholics. This has been proved that even when the Pope himself denounced their actions, they continued carrying out the assaults.

So while the PLO falls under the second case - they are primarily a secular, pan-Arabist nationalistic movement, that use Islam purely as an instrument to get sympathy from other muslims and because the vast majority of Palestinians and Arabs are Muslims, they do not fall under the first case - they seek control over the entire land they call Palestine. They want their capital to be Jerusalem, which the current capital city of another independent state.

So while I don't wish to lower the importance of hatred and intensity in the Anglo-Irish conflict surround N. Ireland, there are very important, basic differences that seperate the two conflicts apart. It didn't mean that the two organizations (PLO and IRA) didn't cooperated - "terrorists of the world unite" anyone?

Hamas, however, fails in both cases (1 & 2) - they are primarily and first an Islamic resistance movement. That's how they refer to themselves. They are a Palestinian branch of the Islamic Brotherhood. Their ultimate goal, is the same as Al-Qaeda and the rest of the Islamic fundamentalist groups - to see an Islamic Caliphate rising from the ashes of history and rebuilt on all of historic Dar Al-Islam. That includes Andalusia in Spain, the Balkans, and - Israel. They also do not recognize the so called secular regimes (of Egypt, the Baathists in Syria and others), and have been fighting them as harshly as they fight non-muslim regimes (ie Israel).

You say they believe in the Protocols, yet Hamas didn't even write the charter! Many of their members merely adopted it as a means of recruitment and drilling up support.

I'm confused, really . You claim they do not believe in what they've written, then you claim they didn't even write it in first place? calm down a bit. It's not your family we're talking about - it's merely your attempt to defend war criminal terror organization . Getting too excited about it doesn't make you look too good, mate.

Ofcourse most of their activists don't know their charter by heart. Just as many, many zealot SS members and Communist party members didn't know the writings of their leader by heart. They do, however, believe in the general atmosphere of this manifesto. Ofcourse there always the ones who join for sheer hatred to Israel and the Jews (that's what the secular Palestinian Authority education system has been drilling down their heads for the last 17 years), and some join because they hope it'll bring their families benefits. But none of them are naives. Please, do not down play Palestinian intelligence.

They are a resistance born through PLO corruption and collaboration (the PLO simply wanted to stay in power). You can try to demonise them all you want but at the end of the day the facts on the ground don't support your theory.

Again, you show your ignorance regarding the history of the conflict. Please, I urge you, go study. Educate yourself behind Al-Jazeera and Palestine.com sites. Hamas is a Palestinian branch of the Islamic Brotherhood. The rest of their history since 1988 is merely their attempt to get control over the Palestinian national movement. And they've succeeded in Gaza. If the IDF will pull it's forces from the rest of the disputed territories, that's probably what'll happen in the Judea and Samaria (West Bank for you) region as well.

Indeed, the corruption of the PLO, instead of actually trying to build a country with all the money thrown to them in the last 17 years, was the reason why Hamas won the hearts of the Palestinian street. It is not, however, the reason they were created. Read, then read some more, then when you think your are done reading - go and read some more again.

And stay open minded. You might find some surprises along the way.

From the mid-1990s onward Hamas “rarely, if at all” adverted to its notoriously anti-Semitic charter and now “no longer cites or refers” (Hamas: Political Thought and Practice)

That's just bull. My best friend is a Druze, he speaks fluent Arabic (better than I do), and used to translate for me all sorts of Hamas' religious leaders hatred speeches.

Oh I actually managed to find a recent one, to refute your lies:

The following is from a sermon recently given by Ziyad Abu al-Hajj , a Hamas-affiliated preacher. The sermon he gave in the Izz al-Din mosque in the Nuseirat refugee camp (south of Gaza City ) was full of anti-Semitic Islamic themes and myths taken from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion . He ended the sermon by saying that “the time will come, if Allah so allows, when their property [of the Jews] will be destroyed and their children will be exterminated, until not one single Jew or Zionist remains on earth ” (Al-Aqsa TV, April 3, 2009 ):

“Today, who leads the cruel, unbridled war against Islam and Muslims? The answer is as clear as day: the Jewish nation [i.e., the Jews]... We Muslims know the Jewish character better than any other group in the world, because the holy Qur'an gives witness to that. In addition, the Sunnah of pure prophecy [the Islamic tradition of the prophet Muhammad] has many true things to say about the Jews... The war [of the Jews] and their hatred for the prophet Muhammad and his religion, prayers to Allah and his blessing for peace, is deep within Jewish souls... Today Israel exists within Muslim Arab borders, but it is a cancer which seeks to rule the world ...The expansionism of the Jews today is an ancient ideology. They argued with Moses, the prophet of Allah, they wanted to kill Jesus, the prophet of Allah, and they wanted to assassinate Muhammad, the prophet of Allah...

“ Perhaps their [most] famous book is The Protocols of the Elders of Zion , whose [authenticity] their leaders and scholars deny. We call it The Protocols of the Fools of Zion . According to the book, my brothers, the Jews planned to take over the world, the land, the air and the sea, and the ideological sphere, as well as the economy and the media, as is happening today ... Today the Jews are spinning their spider webs to encircle our [islamic] nation, as a bracelet encircles the wrist. They spread their corruption all over the world.

“Today the greatness of the Jews and their rise to the throne of power is because of America , which, despite all its might, is controlled by the Senate, which I call the Jewish Senate and not the American Senate... The time will come, if Allah so allows, then their property will be destroyed, their children will be exterminated, until not one Jew or Zionist is left on earth ...

“Once there was a dog whose barking annoyed everyone in the neighborhood. The dog had a puppy whose barking annoyed everyone even more. The Jews are [the same] Jews [they always were]. Both the dogs and the puppies bite, and both are unclean. That is the truth about the Jews.”

Ziyad Abu al-Hajj is an imam and preacher in the Gaza Strip and affiliated with Hamas. This was not the first time Abu al-Hajj blatantly incited his listeners against Israel and the Jewish people, advocating. In a sermon he gave in a mosque in the Nuseirat refugee camp on January 23, 2009 , he said: “We will never lower the jihad flag in the Gaza Strip. All Gaza is made up of jihad fighters. Whom did the Jews conquer? The trees and the rocks, they killed children, they destroyed houses, they killed women and old men, destroyed agricultural lands, all those the Jews conquered... Israel is a cobweb, and pure souls are needed to make it disappear .”

The video could be found here.

Yes, what an adorable man. And he's not the only one. Hey, I didn't even have to put too much of an effort to find this example. Just typed "Hamas religious incitement" in google and that was one of the first results to come out.

“The Hamas leadership has recognized that its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future,” former Mossad head Ephraim Levy observed. “They are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967. . . . They know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their cooperation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game: They will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.”

“Hamas agreed to accept any peace agreement negotiated between the leaders of the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] and Israel provided it is subsequently approved by Palestinians in a referendum or by a democratically elected government.” (Jimmy Carter).

Oh, taking things out of context now, are we?

*Tsk*... don't embarass yourself, please .

While I must applaude your elaborateness, you didn't take into account wikipedia:

Atlantic magazine columnist Jeffrey Goldberg, along with other analysts, believes Hamas may be incapable of permanent reconciliation with Israel.[36][37] Mkhaimer Abusada, a political scientist at Al Azhar University writes that Hamas talks "of hudna [temporary ceasefire], not of peace or reconciliation with Israel. They believe over time they will be strong enough to liberate all historic Palestine.”

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamas#Goals.

What is a Hudna?

Hudna (هدنة) is an Arabic term meaning a temporary "truce" or "armistice" as well as "calm" or "quiet", coming from a verbal root meaning "calm". It is sometimes translated as "cease-fire". In the Lisan al-Arab (Ibn al-Manzur's definitive dictionary of classical Arabic, dating to the 14th century) it is defined as follows:

"hadana: he grew quiet. hadina: he quieted (transitive or intransitive). haadana: he made peace with. The noun from each of these is hudna."

A particularly famous early hudna was the Treaty of Hudaybiyyah between Muhammad and the Quraysh tribe.

According to Umdat as-Salik, a medieval summary of Shafi'i jurisprudence, hudnas with a non-Muslim enemy should be limited to 10 years: "if Muslims are weak, a truce may be made for ten years if necessary, for the Prophet made a truce with the Quraysh for that long, as is related by Abu Dawud" ('Umdat as-Salik, o9.16).[citation needed]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hudna.

I bolded the the line with the reference to the Quraysh tribe, because that's what the Hamas actually means. The Quraysh were strong Jewish tribe in pre-Islamic Arabian peninsula. When Muhammad failed to defeat them, he offered them a hudna, and after ten years returend and slaughtered them all. That's the reference Hamas is using, their example of hudna with Jews.

And just to prove that with just a bit of knowledge of history, you and others could have understood the context in which this Hudna is meant, is from this same article:

In January 2004, senior Hamas leader Abdel Aziz al-Rantissi offered a 10-year hudna in return for complete withdrawal from all territories captured in the Six Day War, and the establishment of a Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza. Rantissi said the hudna was limited to ten years and represented a decision by the movement because it was "difficult to liberate all our land at this stage; the hudna would however not signal a recognition of the state of Israel."

Al-Rantissi is one of Hamas' highest ranking leaders.

See, ex, as I said - go and learn history. And geography too, as I recall from your arguements with Moon Monkey .

As for Hamas not implementing their ideology,I have to refer you and others to the "Islamization of the Gaza Strip" value on wikipedia.

Hamas are a resistance movement by definition erik. They have committed terrible terrorist acts but then, so have Israel. Are you going to tell me they too are a terrorist organisation.

I suggest you read the thread before spouting your seriously misinformed opinion.

And the prisoners that Israel hold are not terrorists, nor have they all been involved in terrorist acts. The fact of the matter is that this is nothing more than an extension of Israel's policy of taking hostages - Israel are the only country in the world to effectively legalise the act, taking 'prisoners' to be used as 'bargaining chips'. After all, this is the reason Hezbollah took prisoners in 2006 - a much omitted fact.

'This Hamas' are simply not the same organisation they once were, something neither you nor the Israeli government can seem to accept.

It should also be noted that, as the most recent article posted above mentions, Israel were responsible for far more horrendous acts of terrorism than Hamas have ever been - back when they were fighting for their own freedom. And, as they were heavily motivated by religion (which is what the Hamas charter is), I could easily quote the Torah and let everyone know exactly what it says about Gentiles - it calls for their death more than the Qur'an anyways.

Oh so your a judge now? and for war crimes no less.

You got to love how the Israeli bahsers just go around and claim "Israel is a criminal, Israel is a terrorist state, Israel is an Apartheid state, Israel is Nazi", believing that if they'll repeat a lie few times, others would believe them. Mate, I'm afraid most of what you've written here as been shown by me and others who have the strengh and too much time in our hands, to be total nonsense, fueled by your sheer hatred to Israel, to the point you try to wash Hamas' hands and to present them as "merely a resistence movement", just like the IRA or others (which I don't believe need to be cleaned as well). Give me and others a break. Go and study the subject. It wasn't that hard to refute your claims and most of your out of context claims.

Please, do not insult our intelligence.

P.S.

I still have no idea why you might try to wash clean Hamas - perhaps to wash your own conscience for supporting any actions the Palestinian are carrying out against Israel. I'm sorry, but did it ever occur to you that if such a fit requires you to change reality that much, as to present Hamas in a positive, somewhat rational western-like way, then maybe, just maybe - it isn't true ? just something to ponder about .

[ExpandMyMind]

Well this has become redundant. Every one of your points has been refuted in the material I have already provided. Not my opinion, but the opinion of serious analysts - not, as you suggest, Al Jazeera and whatever the other one you suggested. If you had bothered to read the material I took the time to provide then you could have saved yourself some time.

I will address just a few of points though.

Hamas have not adopted the Charter since they came into power. This is a fact. You tried to refute this by claiming something about suicide bombs... well they renounced them in 2006 before taking power . This is just a simple example of the horrible tactics you use while debating. Also, for the record (again) I have already stated that I don't view Hamas as a peace loving organisation or anything of the sort.

You tried to link them to Al Qaeda, yet, if you had bothered to read even the last analysis that I provided, you will see that Al Qaeda don't like Hamas very much, because Hamas have stated they would settle for peace going against Al Qaeda's own objectives. But, again, with your form of debating that includes simply rhyming off the same old rhetoric, while not even considering evidence put forward, what else should we expect?

Third, the truce you refer to is not the same thing as the peace I refer to. Hamas offered a long term truce after Operation Cast Lead (Israel refused), they offered peace along the '67 borders long before that. And once again if you had bothered to read the evidence provided in this very thread then you would see that I clearly distinguished between the two different cases. Both Haaretz articles, I should add. This is more mauling of the actual content of my posts.

For the rest of the post you use the Charter as evidence, a truly futile exercise when we consider that the very first article I supplied (which you haven't even read) states clearly, along with others, that Hamas have stepped away from their charter and not adopted it in any way. You also quote 'affiliated with' types, preachers and such. In the same respect, I could quote Rabbis that call for the deaths of all gentiles and for the genocide of all Palestinians... What does that actually prove in an official capacity? Eh.. nothing.

This is a truly terrible form of debate you adopt. It's no wonder I often get frustrated when debating with you. You fail to recognise ,and even to read the evidence I provide. This is not a form of legitimate debate.

But by all means continue to wave away my legitimate sources and information as being from 'Palestinians sites' or whatever crap you throw at me. Hit me with more ad-hominen attacks like the one about moonmonkey, too. For anyone who has actually read the thread and it's content, you simply come off as the usual blind denier.

Edited October 3, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

Wow, ex. No quotes? what's the matter? can't tackle my points so you just overall try to dismiss them? I provided proof that refutes your entire case lol. The problem with the picture you're trying to paint, of a peace seeking Hamas, is that it doesn't exist. It's just enough to look at the proves I've provided, and the long historical picture I've tried to provide you in my post, based on actual facts.

What you provide is selective, out of context quoting. You don't tackle the hard questions, just state "check what I've already posted", like a religious man would refer you to his scripture for answers. Yet even you original post doesn't provide the answers. Because they do not exist.

I think this last post of yours just prove you have no case, and that even 5 minutes search in google can destroy yout entire delusional, baseless case.

[keithisco]

Well this has become redundant. Every one of your points has been refuted in the material I have already provided. Not my opinion, but the opinion of serious analysts - not, as you suggest, Al Jazeera and whatever the other one you suggested. If you had bothered to read the material I took the time to provide then you could have saved yourself some time.

I will address just a few of points though.

Hamas have not adopted the Charter since they came into power. This is a fact. You tried to refute this by claiming something about suicide bombs... well they renounced them in 2006 before taking power . This is just a simple example of the horrible tactics you use while debating. Also, for the record (again) I have already stated that I don't view Hamas as a peace loving organisation or anything of the sort.

You tried to link them to Al Qaeda, yet, if you had bothered to read even the last analysis that I provided, you will see that Al Qaeda don't like Hamas very much, because Hamas have stated they would settle for peace going against Al Qaeda's own objectives. But, again, with your form of debating that includes simply rhyming off the same old rhetoric, while not even considering evidence put forward, what else should we expect?

Third, the truce you refer to is not the same thing as the peace I refer to. Hamas offered a long term truce after Operation Cast Lead (Israel refused), they offered peace along the '67 borders long before that. And once again if you had bothered to read the evidence provided in this very thread then you would see that I clearly distinguished between the two different cases. Both Haaretz articles, I should add. This is more mauling of the actual content of my posts.

For the rest of the post you use the Charter as evidence, a truly futile exercise when we consider that the very first article I supplied (which you haven't even read) states clearly, along with others, that Hamas have stepped away from their charter and not adopted it in any way. You also quote 'affiliated with' types, preachers and such. In the same respect, I could quote Rabbis that call for the deaths of all gentiles and for the genocide of all Palestinians... What does that actually prove in an official capacity? Eh.. nothing.

This is a truly terrible form of debate you adopt. It's no wonder I often get frustrated when debating with you. You fail to recognise ,and even to read the evidence I provide. This is not a form of legitimate debate.

But by all means continue to wave away my legitimate sources and information as being from 'Palestinians sites' or whatever crap you throw at me. Hit me with more ad-hominen attacks like the one about moonmonkey, too. For anyone who has actually read the thread and it's content, you simply come off as the usual blind denier.

Agreed, you have established a solid base for your conclusions that has been met only with ridicule and entrenched ideology. I have not seen any efficient or credible denial of your position, and quite honestly, there will not be any. You waste your time, but at least those capable of considering your point of view, and willing to learn thank you for your contribution to the debate.

[Erikl]

greed, you have established a solid base for your conclusions that has been met only with ridicule and entrenched ideology. I have not seen any efficient or credible denial of your position, and quite honestly, there will not be any. You waste your time, but at least those capable of considering your point of view, and willing to learn thank you for your contribution to the debate.

Oh gosh, a fellow coleague. LOL. It's good the ex is now preaching to the choir. Keithisco, I wonder, what ideology did you find in my post? the references to historical facts you and ex are unawared?

And ex is eating his own medicine. He doesn't take seriously when other, more educated people try to reply to him seriously, so what else is to do then resulting to his own mode of posting? he doesn't need older brothers, he's well capable of defending his own opinions. Oh wait, he can't - because they have been refuted.

Edited October 3, 2010 by Erikl

[ExpandMyMind]

Agreed, you have established a solid base for your conclusions that has been met only with ridicule and entrenched ideology. I have not seen any efficient or credible denial of your position, and quite honestly, there will not be any. You waste your time, but at least those capable of considering your point of view, and willing to learn thank you for your contribution to the debate.

Thanks Keith. It does feel sometimes as though I'm banging my head off the keyboard more often than actually typing on it.

[ExpandMyMind]

And ex is eating his own medicine. He doesn't take seriously when other, more educated people try to reply to him seriously, so what else is to do then resulting to his own mode of posting? he doesn't need older brothers, he's well capable of defending his own opinions. Oh wait, he can't - because they have been refuted.

More educated? Your posts do not reflect your opinion on this matter. You won't even read any of the material I have provided, so how can you claim to be educated on these matters? You base your entire argument on a seriously outdated opinion. You entered this thread with preexisting misconceptions and won't even consider any evidence to the contrary. Is this the way you were taught in school? I highly doubt, with education amongst the Jews in Israel as great as it is, that this is the case.

You haven't refuted, credibly, a single item I've posted.

Edited October 3, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

More educated? Your posts do not reflect your opinion on this matter. You won't even read any of the material I have provided, so how can you claim to be educated on these matters? You base your entire argument on a seriously outdated opinion. You entered this thread with preexisting misconceptions and won't even consider any evidence to the contrary. Is this the way you were taught in school? I highly doubt, with education amongst the Jews in Israel as great as it is, that this is the case.

You haven't refuted, credibly, a single item I've posted.

Opinions? You claimed Hamas wants peace, and quoted that it's leadership recognizes they can't achieve their ideological goals. I merely explained to the other readers of this thread, why there should be a "yet" to that sentence. I explained the very famous Islamic term "Hudna", which you might be unaware of, but is the lexical term Hamas is using when they speak of "cease fire".

I explained why the comprasion to the IRA and the PLO is not in place, the differences between the different organizations. You created somewhat of a "demagogue soup" which is confusing, both to you and the other readers here.

You also accidently believe Hamas was created because people were tired of the corruption of the PLO. That is simply not true. While Hamas' popularity did grow as a result of this, and eventually lead to them winning the elections, it wasn't the reason nor the background behind which Hamas was born.

You dismiss the equations to Al-Qaeda - yet disagreement between different organizations with similar goals and ideas, doesn't make a point to claim they do not have the same ideas regarding Jihad, Islamic caliphate, and war against infidels. After all - you yourself equated Hamas to the PLO and the IRA - both secular, nationalistic organizations, one with which Hamas is in current armed conflict!

Then you went along claiming Hamas activists do not truly read Hamas manifesto. I agreed. That is usually the case. It was the case with Communists, and with other radical violent ideologies. Most of their advocates do not actually take the time to read. But they don't need to - they believe and accept the overall ideological atmosphere that is created by the leaders of Hamas and similar movements. That's how it works.

You then claimed, using selective quoting or none at all, that Hamas has denounced and rejected it's virulent anti-Semitism and belief in classic European anti-Semitic works (such as the Protocols). I then gave evidence, quoting and showing you a video, of a top Hamas' affiliated Imam, giving religious teachings in a Mosque only a year ago, on Hamas tv channel Al-Aqsa Tv, proving that what you are claiming is simply not true.

You also claimed the Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prison are not terrorists. That is your own personal opinion. Being that you are not a judge nor a lawyer, nor do you have any studies of the laws of wartime, you have no professional expertise to actually rule in this case. Israeli civil judical system is highly appriciated arround the world. All of those prisoners in Israeli prisons are tried and found guilty, or are waiting for a trial and are under arrest due to their risk to the public. This is allowed under international law. So now you are going to dismiss the entire judical system of Israel? Palestinian prisoners also get frequent visits from their relatives, to the point that the Gilad Shalit movement protested to the Israeli government to not allow such visits for one day so that the Palestinian families will feel what it's like.

I wonder, when was Shalit's trial, and did we all miss it?

Your rest of the post was simply Israeli-bashing at it's best, using your own posts as a reference point ot prove your case. If it is indeed found in your posts, then just quote yourself. That's how much your so-called education seems to be worthy.

I used links to each and everyone of my points, when I refuted yours. You use editors' opinions and biased pro-Palestinian articles as your sources. Anyone with half a brain can confirm what I've wirtten here by clicking on the links or googling.

[ExpandMyMind]

Opinions? You claimed Hamas wants peace, and quoted that it's leadership recognizes they can't achieve their ideological goals. I merely explained to the other readers of this thread, why there should be a "yet" to that sentence. I explained the very famous Islamic term "Hudna", which you might be unaware of, but is the lexical term Hamas is using when they speak of "cease fire".

Again with the 'Hamas wants peace' jargon. What i quoted was an Haaretz article that stated Hamas would be willing to accept peace on the '67 borders. Again you are misrepresenting me.

Which, again (this is the problem, you keep making me repeat the same things), is entirely different from the other Haaretz article I posted which stated, after the war, that they were willing to enter a long term truce.

I explained why the comprasion to the IRA and the PLO is not in place, the differences between the different organizations. You created somewhat of a "demagogue soup" which is confusing, both to you and the other readers here.

And I explained to you - actually, the people and articles I posted explained this - that Hamas are moving steadily away from 'their goals'. You just cannot accept this fact. Repeating the same old empty rhetoric without even reading the evidence I have provided. Even if you did read it, your twisted, indoctrinated opinion wouldn't allow for the content of them to even register.

You also accidently believe Hamas was created because people were tired of the corruption of the PLO. That is simply not true. While Hamas' popularity did grow as a result of this, and eventually lead to them winning the elections, it wasn't the reason nor the background behind which Hamas was born.

It is a fairly well known fact that Hamas was born through PLO and Fatah corrption and collusion. In their infancy (before 1990) they became 'famous' in Palestine because they were posting leaflets everywhere, including through doors, exposing the corruption. This is why they became popular, increasing for years, until they were finally elected in a free and democratic election.

The fact that I have to explain this to an Israeli really does surprise me.

You dismiss the equations to Al-Qaeda - yet disagreement between different organizations with similar goals and ideas, doesn't make a point to claim they do not have the same ideas regarding Jihad, Islamic caliphate, and war against infidels. After all - you yourself equated Hamas to the PLO and the IRA - both secular, nationalistic organizations, one with which Hamas is in current armed conflict!

Hamas's goals are not the same. Again, not me, but the articles I posted show clearly that their goals do not intertwine. You haven't even read any of them, so I'm not sure how you can claim to deny this? All you have done is label the authors with your usual, automatic, 'anti-Israel, pro-Palestinian' garbage (the one who actually said that was Jewish and.. well if you had bothered to read even that post then you would see that I provided evidence to show how much of an informed guy he is. But no, "anti-Israeli!, I swear it!".

Then you went along claiming Hamas activists do not truly read Hamas manifesto. I agreed. That is usually the case. It was the case with Communists, and with other radical violent ideologies. Most of their advocates do not actually take the time to read. But they don't need to - they believe and accept the overall ideological atmosphere that is created by the leaders of Hamas and similar movements. That's how it works.

No, this is more putting words into my mouth.

I never mentioned anything about Hamas activists or what they have read or believed.

You then claimed, using selective quoting or none at all, that Hamas has denounced and rejected it's virulent anti-Semitism and belief in classic European anti-Semitic works (such as the Protocols). I then gave evidence, quoting and showing you a video, of a top Hamas' affiliated Imam, giving religious teachings in a Mosque only a year ago, on Hamas tv channel Al-Aqsa Tv, proving that what you are claiming is simply not true.

Again, simply more nonsensical lies.

1. I did not say Hamas had denounced the charter.

2. I did not say they had rejected the Charter.

I said that they have never adopted it since coming to power and provided a quote from the ex Mossad (someone who knows a crapload more than you ever will about them - especially considering you're not even willing to read anything that doesn't conform with your already made up mind) head that stated since the early 90s this has been the case. What I will also add, is that Hamas have never in any official capacity even adopted 'their' charter in the first place. It has never been an official charter to even have to renounce.

3. Your quoting some mad preacher doesn't prove a thing, as I have already shown you. It's about as relevant as me quoting a mad Rabbi to prove that Israel just want all Palestinians dead.

You also claimed the Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prison are not terrorists. That is your own personal opinion. Being that you are not a judge nor a lawyer, nor do you have any studies of the laws of wartime, you have no professional expertise to actually rule in this case. Israeli civil judical system is highly appriciated arround the world. All of those prisoners in Israeli prisons are tried and found guilty, or are waiting for a trial and are under arrest due to their risk to the public. This is allowed under international law. So now you are going to dismiss the entire judical system of Israel? Palestinian prisoners also get frequent visits from their relatives, to the point that the Gilad Shalit movement protested to the Israeli government to not allow such visits for one day so that the Palestinian families will feel what it's like.

Well under Israel's definition they are terrorists. But then, so would I be

Many of them are held without charge, many have been convicted on trumped up charges. I wonder, how would you react to the Palestinians arresting thousands of Israelis responsible for horrendous war crimes? Instead of a bunch of Palestinians that were caught talking to Hamas... their bloody government.

And this is before the Lebanese prisoners.

To the bold. I'm saving that one. Erik recognised there is such a thing as international law. I hope everyone saw that.

I wonder, when was Shalit's trial, and did we all miss it?

Your rest of the post was simply Israeli-bashing at it's best, using your own posts as a reference point ot prove your case. If it is indeed found in your posts, then just quote yourself. That's how much your so-called education seems to be worthy.

I used links to each and everyone of my points, when I refuted yours. You use editors' opinions and biased pro-Palestinian articles as your sources. Anyone with half a brain can confirm what I've wirtten here by clicking on the links or googling.

There are many being held in Israel without trial.

I didn't 'use my own posts' in the manner you describe. I just find it pointless to continue repeating myself when you obviously haven't even given me the courtesy of reading either my posts or the evidence provided.

And again, instead of addressing the content of any of the articles, you have issued a blanket statement that they are all automatically biased against Israel and therefore not even worth the time reading. LOL. That sounds familiar - oh yeah, it's exactly how your governments responds to criticism. That's great, I wish everyone could get away with that. "No, judge, those police are just anti-smackhead, therefore nothing they say can be true".

Blah blah blah. Sorry for the blahs, but it's actually more constructive than your replies for they hold more value and are a lot quicker to read.

The megaphonies crack me up. Funny how my browser keeps getting hijacked when I debate with you. Really strange coincidence, no?

Edited October 3, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

Ex, it all starts with your false assumption that you "explain" to me something. You do not. You are now starting to retreat from your previous, documented arguments. I will not elaborate my own military record as an officer, but it's enough to say that your entire attitude to Israel and to the conflict is well.. that of a child. A well brainwashed child. You seem to live in an "ever-equal" world, as I like to describe it. It means your mind needs to equate any two sides in a conflict or a debate. It's a childish thought. If Hamas is blamed for terrorism, then ofcourse Israel is acting as a terrorist as well. You eqaute a religious fundamentalist organization, lead by religious fanatics, to a Rabbi in a country that is secular (Israel) - how much of a demagogue you need to come out than this?

As for my " your twisted, indoctrinated opinion wouldn't allow for the content of them to even register " 's mind (someone is p***ed off, eh? that's what you're doing when you have no case? result to up right slurring?), you do not know me, you have no idea where I grew or where my ideas come from. You have no wish nor ability to learn anything that isn't anti-Israeli, to the point you dimiss them all as frauds. You have to check your sources, mate. It's also funny how if someone isn't not balantly against your views or if your not sure what his true agenda his - you keep to your manners, and carefully or outright try to label them. But if they come out as pro-Israelis, your mind shuts down, and you strat disrespecting and throw manners out of the window. That too, is an obvious sign of your childishness.

I suggest you read about Hudnas, about the Islamization of the Gaza Strip, about the Islamic Brotherhood, about the history of the region. It's funny that you now try to twist your own words into meaning something else as a way to distance yourself from your own mistakes. But the fact is - and as you said - let the board see - that your words are preserved in this thread for others to review.

Why I'm not bothering to read some of what you write or refer here? because even neutral coverage get's biased by your own twisted interpretation. You simply fail to understand the conflict. I'm afraid it's you who's brainwashed. But then again, maybe there's some hope for you.

The day I'll be able to reply to one of your anti-Israeli posts without you starting to slurr and behave like a child, will be the day I'll start respecting you or your opinions, even if I'll still disagree.

[ExpandMyMind]

A true non-reply.

One part that is worth addressing: You are now starting to retreat from your previous, documented arguments

Incorrect. You put words in my mouth which I corrected and you have went on to equate that with me 'retreating'.

Anyways, as is the case with all 'debates' with you, this one became redundant a long time ago.

[Erikl]

A non-reply? lol. Hardly. I simply wish to educate you. You post a very, provocative post, insulting me, the way I'm thinking, assuming personal things against me, then when you get an appropriate reply, you claim it's a non-reply. That's so Chuzpah that your almost Jewish .

I didn't put anything in your mouth - I quoted you and replied to things you've wrote.

Anyways, as is the case with all 'debates' with you, this one became redundant a long time ago.

again, childish behaviour. *tsk* I hope something did get through though.

[Papagiorgio]

The megaphonies crack me up. Funny how my browser keeps getting hijacked when I debate with you. Really strange coincidence, no?

You have made comments like this several times. What are you implying?

[keithisco]

A non-reply? lol. Hardly. I simply wish to educate you. You post a very, provocative post, insulting me, the way I'm thinking, assuming personal things against me, then when you get an appropriate reply, you claim it's a non-reply. That's so Chuzpah that your almost Jewish .

I didn't put anything in your mouth - I quoted you and replied to things you've wrote.

again, childish behaviour. *tsk* I hope something did get through though.

a non - reply, is what is stated. You agreed that you did not read the links provided. Why is that? Does it upset some smug pre-conception of the truth that you do not want to read?

Reply to the points raised, otherwise it is you that is being childish. I am not Expandmyminds "Big Brother" by the way, I have read every link that has been posted (as I do) and what you are posting is simple propoganda from a personal viewpoint.

This is not debate from you, it is trying to ram your own personal ideology down the throats of people who actually have an interest in this topic.

Perhaps your claim of trying "to educate" would be better received if you could cite reliable sources.

[Erikl]

keithisco, I did read the article he posted here. But he (ex) gives his political views and agenda a cover as if they were objective facts. The article merely said that Hamas' platform during the elections was moderate. And that "only" two sections mentioned violence. This says nothing about Hamas. The article also says that there's a big difference between Hamas' promises and what happens de-facto in Gaza. Ex took this and turned it into an appologistic thread for Hamas. That's where I came in, giving you some insights as well as links and google keywords on how to locate these easily accesible historical facts. Many in the West don't know what Hudna means. I gave an explaination. I also gave you a link on the issue on wikipedia. I linked to a video speech of one of Hamas' imams, which Ex labelled as "mad Imam" and compared him to a "mad Rabbi", as if Rabbis in secular, democratic Israel are equal in influence to an Imam in Hamas, a fundemantalist Islamic movement.

This is not "ideology down the throats". It's simply legitimate arguments, easily proved. It's funny how Ex is drawing conclusions that suits your world view - then it is informed, well established fact. But when someone else here gives pieces of information, you bash him and label it as ideology.

[ExpandMyMind]

Actually, you clearly have not read the article... You left the thread, ignoring one of my replies, then jumped back in at the end with nonsense.

And the mad Rabbis I was referring to were like this guy:

West Bank rabbi: Jews can kill Gentiles who threaten Israel

Book by Rabbi Yitzhak Shapiro of Yitzhar permits even the murder of babies and children who pose threat.

http://www.haaretz.com/jewish-world/news/west-bank-rabbi-jews-can-kill-gentiles-who-threaten-israel-1.4496

Don't claim that in some circles, these mad Rabbis are not as influential as any preacher 'with ties to Hamas'.

We just need to remember back to the Gaza war when they were handing out leaflets to the soldiers, saying much of the same as above.

The truth with this thread, is that you have not addressed any of its content in any detail, other than to throw your 'that can's be right, it's Hamas we're talking about here' jargon around.

Again, you aren't debating anything. All your doing is spouting misinformed opinion and I've been calling you on this for about 3 days straight now.

[ExpandMyMind]

You have made comments like this several times. What are you implying?

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating as fact that since I became far more educated on these matters, and started posting what I have learned, my computer has been under constant (very successful) attack.

My Joan Peters thread from this morning has thrown it overboard. Seriously, I think my PC will be dead very soon. Now, I'm not accusing anyone in particular of doing this as I have no way of proving guilt, but it ONLY happens when I debate this topic, and more importantly, when I have been successful in exposing complete nonsense for what it is (which has been a lot lately).

No trouble before I started destroying Zionist propaganda, and very little when I'm doing other things online/constant attack when I am posting on this subject. Coincidence? I think not.

I'm not very computer savvy though so I have no way of stopping these attacks or even finding out who is responsible.

This is the last I will mention the matter. I will say on more thing though: that if UM has any hackers as members that would be willing to check my system out, I would definitely welcome the help.

[Papagiorgio]

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating as fact that since I became far more educated on these matters, and started posting what I have learned, my computer has been under constant (very successful) attack.

I see.

[Erikl]

I'm not implying anything. I'm stating as fact that since I became far more educated on these matters, and started posting what I have learned, my computer has been under constant (very successful) attack.

My Joan Peters thread from this morning has thrown it overboard. Seriously, I think my PC will be dead very soon. Now, I'm not accusing anyone in particular of doing this as I have no way of proving guilt, but it ONLY happens when I debate this topic, and more importantly, when I have been successful in exposing complete nonsense for what it is (which has been a lot lately).

No trouble before I started destroying Zionist propaganda, and very little when I'm doing other things online/constant attack when I am posting on this subject. Coincidence? I think not.

I'm not very computer savvy though so I have no way of stopping these attacks or even finding out who is responsible.

This is the last I will mention the matter. I will say on more thing though: that if UM has any hackers as members that would be willing to check my system out, I would definitely welcome the help.

OMG... what a conspiracy nut... in a single post you've shown your utter hatred by implying that some Israeli or pro-Israeli hackers are messing up with your computer. You're a real piece of work. No doubt, Jews... erm, sorry. Israelis/Zionists are behind it all.

[ExpandMyMind]

OMG... what a conspiracy nut... in a single post you've shown your utter hatred by implying that some Israeli or pro-Israeli hackers are messing up with your computer. You're a real piece of work. No doubt, Jews... erm, sorry. Israelis/Zionists are behind it all.

You may want to look up the definition of 'conspiracy'.

There is no 'utter hatred' no matter how many times you may say it. It is a fact that my browser and PC have had a massive amount of trouble since the time I mentioned.

Can we now move back on topic?