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ExpandMyMind

Understanding Hamas

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ExpandMyMind

if the occupation of gaza is illegal they should give it back to the nation they got it from, egypt. but egypt doesnt want it. hamas does so they can make illegal attacks on civilians inside of isreal.

Oh, go away with this nonsense that has been debunked many times on here. Bloody hell Daniel. You need to stop repeating the same old crap - all it does is make you look like an... Well, I'll let you finish that. It's probably one answer you will know.

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Erikl

Care to address even one part of any of my posts?

Why?

Ex, you play a catch 22 here. You first claim that accusing you of anti-Semitism or unjustified bias against Israel is non-debate (which by itself can be legitimate, as accusing someone of racial or religious hatred without a solid evidence or reason is first lowering the seriousness of such allegations), but if we'll check the statistics of your posts here, atleast since I came back on this site after a long absense, the vast majority here are about bashing Israel, to the point of conspiracy theories (and now supporting Hamas), and anyone who presents a negating point of view or actual facts is being disrespected by you. You claim others do not address your posts - I'm sorry, but you don't really address theirs. You begin your replies in a disrespectful manner and when presented with the same attitude, you point your finger and start getting provocative. When you start responding in a respectful manner, you'll get my and others' respect as well. And if you don't need our respect, then don't come here and try to debate with us. When I first came to this board some 6 years ago, I had an ideological foe as well, who used to criticise Israel a lot. However, he had mine and others' respect because he actually seemed to have learnt things, even if he still disagreed. You have a lot to learn about the subject, yet you act as if you are an expert, instead of taking time and saying "you know what, I disagree, but let me get back to you on the subject". You entire way of posting on the subject is very emotional and immature, I'm afraid.

So what do you expect me or others to think about your thoughts about Israel? I mean you claim that accusing you of racism or atleast biased viewes is wrong, yet you fall in the category. Claiming that it's not anti-Semitic before anyone has the chance to raise the point, doesn't make you not an anti-Semitic. It also doesn't make you one. The proof is on you, I'm afraid, as your records on Israel-related posting is extremely biased.

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ExpandMyMind

In my view occupation means you're controling another country. You have boots on the ground. This is not the case in Gaza. Yes Israel has control over the Gaza border but it's also their border as well. Likewise Egpyt has control over the Gaza border. Does that make Egypt an occupying power? Will Hamas be striking at Egpyt as well? As far as I can tell Hamas has control over Gaza not Israel, which means it's not an occupation. After all Iraq wasn't an occupied country after the Gulf War and they had limits placed on their borders and airspace.

As for Hamas yes they've been quiet the last few years, though you still hear stories of them stealing UN relief goods and brainwashing their children. After being flat out murderers for so long it's going to take years of good behavour to change public option of them.

Your view means very little when the definition has already been decided by countless international lawyers and judges. "yeah, well, I don't really view that crime as murder, so can I just be let off?" See what I mean? This has already been decided and defined and there is a clear precedent already existing in the law.

Read the evidence I have provided. The closing the border stance is so weak that it's just silly. Israel do far more than close a silly little border. Hamas control the Gaza? WTF? They can't even move out in the open without fear of illegal bombings! Jesus. If you had bothered to read the evidence I have provided then you would know how pointless these claims are. Why jump into a thread to spew crap when you obviously haven't even bothered to read the evidence provided? This is a blatant form of "I'm right 'cause it's just what I think", anti-intellectual debate. I could quote the relevant material from the first page of this thread which shows why they are still an occupying power, but what's the point? You obviously didn't bother reading it the first time...

You read the propaganda written to demonise them and absorb every bit like a dry sponge.

You have a cheek to call Hamas flat out murderers? Here, take a look at why they were even born.

Jewish/Israeli Massacres and Terrorism

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/israeli-massacres.htm

And this has continued all the way through, as the slaughtering of Gaza and Lebanon have shown us.

Above are decades of countless Israel atrocities that have gone unpunished. Remember, every intifada started off peaceful, until Israel started their brutal campaign of murdering the resistance.

Where is the outrage for all of this? Or did you just think that Hamas decided they didn't like the Israelis and that's why they sacrifice themselves?

Brainwashing? Really? You think the Gazans need brainwashed? Bloody hell, when Israel kills civilians like they were pigeons? I think it is YOU who has been brainwashed!

Don't bother replying if you're not going to bother reading the relevant material. It does you no favours.

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danielost

Oh, go away with this nonsense that has been debunked many times on here. Bloody hell Daniel. You need to stop repeating the same old crap - all it does is make you look like an... Well, I'll let you finish that. It's probably one answer you will know.

you dont have the right to tell me to go away.

but i can understand that you cant stand the truth. hamas is what is standing in the way of peace in that area, just as hezbollah is standing in the way on the north border.

i also noticed you didnt address the school and murder bomber.

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Corp

Deep breaths ok.

The links you've provided the UN views occupation as the ability to exercise control over a territory. While Israel does have the ability to exerice control over Gaza as far as I'm aware they don't. Hamas is still the official government of Gaza and they're the ones who are putting policy in place. To me, taking into consideration of the UN view, this means it's not occupied. Blockaded yes. Jerked around unfairly yes. But not occupied.

Hams itself has over its history taken the lives of unarmed civilians. That makes them murderers. You'll also note that no where in my post did I make the claim that Israel was some white knight. They're not, not by a long shot. Heck the last few years they've been the worst of the two sides. However doesn't give Hamas a free ride for all the suicide bombings they've done in the past. Now they seem to be making an attempt at reform and I wish them all the best. I'm glad that they've finally clued in that blowing up buses filled with civilians is not the way to go but the reputation remains. As for their children I don't think having a popular character be murdered by Israeli soldiers (that Mickey Mouse rip off) is the best way to encourage the future generation towards peace.

Oh and I'll thank you to knock off the personal attacks. They do nothing to further your agrument.

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ExpandMyMind

Why?

Ex, you play a catch 22 here. You first claim that accusing you of anti-Semitism or unjustified bias against Israel is non-debate (which by itself can be legitimate, as accusing someone of racial or religious hatred without a solid evidence or reason is first lowering the seriousness of such allegations), but if we'll check the statistics of your posts here, atleast since I came back on this site after a long absense, the vast majority here are about bashing Israel, to the point of conspiracy theories (and now supporting Hamas), and anyone who presents a negating point of view or actual facts is being disrespected by you.

So what? I have taken a special interest in a colonial venture that has defied law and all morals for nearly half a century, ignoring international law while the whole World is forced to sit by and watch, and has been responsible for some of the largest lies and crimes I've never heard of carried out since the end of WW2 - and is still continuing. All this while constantly violating international. You can't debate my posts, which is why you answer with pointless posts like the one I've just quoted. This is why I end up with the tone I have. I present facts and evidence and am hit with this crap, all the time.

Point out the conspiracy theory please. You're the one that claimed Jordan were planning to unite with Palestine.. a plan that had been in the works for decades apparently...

No one has presented anything in this thread, except biased and uneducated opinion. How do you expect me to respond?

You claim others do not address your posts - I'm sorry, but you don't really address theirs.

Examples please. I would love you to show me all these times I have not addressed posts...

You begin your replies in a disrespectful manner and when presented with the same attitude, you point your finger and start getting provocative.

I'm disrespectful of you because you consistently try to label me anti-Semitic because it's the only form of debate you have when defending Israel's illegal occupation and it's murderous atrocities. It is clear flaming. I'm disrespectful to others only after banging my head against the wall countless times due to their repeated and repeated again baseless claims and uninformed opinions. How should I feel? Soon these posts will be responsible for giving me brain damage!

When you start responding in a respectful manner, you'll get my and others' respect as well.

I've tried. Believe me I've tried. You don't reply because you cannot. It has been clear from every single time I have 'debated' with you.

And if you don't need our respect, then don't come here and try to debate with us. When I first came to this board some 6 years ago, I had an ideological foe as well, who used to criticise Israel a lot. However, he had mine and others' respect because he actually seemed to have learnt things, even if he still disagreed. You have a lot to learn about the subject, yet you act as if you are an expert, instead of taking time and saying "you know what, I disagree, but let me get back to you on the subject". You entire way of posting on the subject is very emotional and immature, I'm afraid.

This is complete nonsense. If you want to debate the content of my posts then please, by all means, go ahead. Your entire post is nothing more than an attempt to bash my character. I don't act like anything. I have learned after reading a lot. It's really quite simple. And you don't even debate me. You just hit me with pointless posts like the one above. If it weren't for people taking an interest, like I do, then there would be no Palestine. Are they all anti-semitic?

So what do you expect me or others to think about your thoughts about Israel?

I don't care. More bashing of a character because you have no other alternative. And who are these others?

I mean, you claim that accusing you of racism or atleast biased viewes is wrong,

It is wrong.

You have accused me of anti-Semitism many times for no other reason that because I posting about a country that has suppressed another nation for over half a century - the question should be: why are there not more people posting about this atrocity? In fact you have done so to many people. Here's a quick way for anyone reading this to find out. Go to Erik's profile, go to his posts and search "anti-semitic" and they can all be the judge of what exactly constitutes anti-Semitism in your view. The evidence speaks for itself.

yet you fall in the category. Claiming that it's not anti-Semitic before anyone has the chance to raise the point, doesn't make you not an anti-Semitic. It also doesn't make you one. The proof is on you, I'm afraid, as your records on Israel-related posting is extremely biased.

I have never once said anything about Jews. I don't think, apart from the ADL, I have ever even posted about Jews living outside Israel (or 'Jews' at all). I post about Israel and you can continue to try to demonise my character all you want but it doesn't work. I see through it like glass.

Just once, I would like you to debate the evidence I present. Instead of your usual trolling and flame-baiting, which is all this post of yours was.

Care to address the actual thread? Any of the material presented? Didn't think so.. My entire thread here is valid, it holds merit and all it does is show an organisation that has been constantly demonised by Israel in an objective light. Did you see the articles I posted? Are you claiming they are anti_semitic? What a joke your entire argument is. But well done, you've taken what was an interesting thread and turned it into a cat-fight. So mission accomplished on your side I suppose :tu:

Edited by expandmymind

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ExpandMyMind

Deep breaths ok.

The links you've provided the UN views occupation as the ability to exercise control over a territory. While Israel does have the ability to exerice control over Gaza as far as I'm aware they don't.

Read the quote that has been put in bold. This addresses what you have brought up here and indeed, it is the precedent in the law.

Gaza is still occupied.

Hamas is still the official government of Gaza and they're the ones who are putting policy in place. To me, taking into consideration of the UN view, this means it's not occupied. Blockaded yes. Jerked around unfairly yes. But not occupied.

What policy? They don't have an economy, cannot trade, cannot fish, cannot move (the entire people are trapped), Israel control airspace, Israel control the sea, Israel reserve the right to enter the country at will, Israel controls everything going in and out (which is more than a blockade), etc., etc.

All of these things and more are what makes them an occupied country.

Not to mention that PALESTINE is still occupied. Amnesty International view it as, because one part (the West Bank) is still without a doubt occupied, all the country's inhabitants are occupied. They can't go from one part to the other, cannot interact with each other, cannot even trade with half of the country.

Hams itself has over its history taken the lives of unarmed civilians.

How many? And why? And how many have Israel killed deliberately? Israel killed more civilians during operation cast lead than Hamas have killed in every suicide bombing ever committed. And they don't even do that anymore..

Just to shine some perspective on the situation...

That makes them murderers.

Indeed. So were the Africans fighting for independence from the Apartheid Regime. Or any other resistance throughout history. Desperate times calls for...

You'll also note that no where in my post did I make the claim that Israel was some white knight. They're not, not by a long shot. Heck the last few years they've been the worst of the two sides.

The last two years? During the second Intifada more Palestinian civilians (ridiculously more) were killed by Israel than the other way around. Actually, during the Second Intifada Hamas didn't start targeting civilians until after 6 months of brutal treatment by Israel.

During the first Intifada?

Benny Morris, prominent Israel historian:

“It was not an armed rebellion but a massive, persistent campaign of civil resistance, with strikes and commercial shutdowns, accompanied by violent (though unarmed) demonstrations against the occupying forces. The stone and, occasionally, the Molotov cocktail and knife were its symbols and weapons, not guns and bombs.”

On Israel:

“Almost everything was tried: shooting to kill, shooting to injure, beatings, mass arrests, torture, trials, administrative detention, and economic sanctions”; “A large proportion of the Palestinian dead were not shot in life-threatening situations, and a great many of these were children”; “Only a small minority of [the IDF] malefactors were brought to book by the army’s legal machinery—and were almost always let off with ludicrously light sentences.”

Is it any wonder certain factions of the Palestinians became more extreme?

They've tried the passive resistance approach (in fact, the resistance in the first few years from '67 onwards was largely protests); it obviously doesn't work.

However doesn't give Hamas a free ride for all the suicide bombings they've done in the past.

I agree it doesn't, but they have stopped them - it's been around half a decade since the last one.

Oh and I'll thank you to knock off the personal attacks. They do nothing to further your agrument.

I apologise, but you clearly hadn't read the material I presented before commenting. You're right though, I should have kept my tone more civil.

Edited by expandmymind

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MichaelW

Gaza isn't occupied MichaelW?

If I surrounded your house with my gang of friends and stood, myself at the entrance and denied any access to anybody other than whom I allowed based on my own personal interests......... what would you call this?

That's a blockade, not an occupation. To be an occupation, you have to be physically standing inside my house and letting me come and go when you see is fit. If Israel withdraws all personnel physically from Gazan soil, which it has, but still controls what comes in and goes out, then it isn't a blockade. Does Israel make laws in Gaza? No. Does Israel have troops permanently stationed in Gaza? No. Does Israel blockade Gaza? Yes. Does Israel OCCUPY the West Bank? Yes. Does Israel physically have troops in the West Bank? Yes. See the differences?

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ExpandMyMind

That's a blockade, not an occupation. To be an occupation, you have to be physically standing inside my house and letting me come and go when you see is fit. If Israel withdraws all personnel physically from Gazan soil, which it has, but still controls what comes in and goes out, then it isn't a blockade. Does Israel make laws in Gaza? No. Does Israel have troops permanently stationed in Gaza? No. Does Israel blockade Gaza? Yes. Does Israel OCCUPY the West Bank? Yes. Does Israel physically have troops in the West Bank? Yes. See the differences?

Why do you continue to keep claiming this, when I have shown that it obviously is not true? An army doesn't have to have one soldier on the soil for it to be considered an occupation. It is not the same meaning as "occupying" a telephone box, which is clearly what you seem to think. Here, I'll quote the relevant material once again:

B. Israel Will Remain the Occupying Power of the Gaza Strip so long as Israel Retains

the Ability to Exercise Authority over the Strip

In The Hostages Case, the Nuremburg Tribunal expounded upon The Hague Regulations’ basic definition of occupation in order to ascertain when occupation ends.[34] It held that “[t]he test for application of the legal regime of occupation is not whether the occupying power fails to exercise effective control over the territory, but whether it has the ability to exercise such power.”[35] In that case, the Tribunal had to decide whether Germany’s occupation of Greece and Yugoslavia had ended when Germany had ceded de facto control to non-German forces of certain territories. Even though Germany did not actually control those areas, the Tribunal held that Germany indeed remained the “occupying power”—both in Greece and Yugoslavia generally and in the territories to which it had ceded control—since it could have reentered and controlled those territories at will.

Similarly, Israel will retain ultimate authority over Gaza and to a much greater degree than Germany in The Hostages Case: The Israeli military expressly reserves itself the right to enter the Gaza Strip at will. Further, Israel will not just retain the ability to exercise control over Gaza, but it will also retain effective control over Gaza’s borders, air and sea space, overall security, and international relations.

Moreover, even if Israel should devolve some of its duties to third parties—either as co-occupying powers or as designees—Israel will remain an occupying power so long as it retains the ability to effectively control the Gaza Strip at will, whether with Israel’s own troops or those of its agents or partners.

This is the Hague who decided the definition when applied internationally. The Hague, Michael, the highest authority on these matters in the World.

For you to continue claiming your opinion actually has any relevance, is completely dishonest. This is how the international community, the UN and the highest judicial authorities in the World view Gaza, because they know that "occupying" a seat and "occupying" a country are completely different with distinct differences in their definitions.

As you can see, Gaza is a non-belligerent occupation. This means no military presence but Israel still "occupy" the place.

This is crystal clear and has been set out and defined probably before you were even born. Like I said before, it is simply dishonest for you to keep claiming otherwise when the facts have been presented to you numerous times.

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SkyMonkey
The Israeli military expressly reserves itself the right to enter the Gaza Strip at will. Further, Israel will not just retain the ability to exercise control over Gaza, but it will also retain effective control over Gaza's borders, air and sea space, overall security, and international relations.

True.

But please let's keep it in context and perhaps explain why, from the Israeli view, these steps have been taken by the Israeli government and it's military.

The Israelis understand Hamas very well as Hamas continues to allow people to fire rocket and mortar rounds at Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

All the words and courtroom lawyering in the world will not change the fact that Arab militants still want to kill Jews.

So long as firing of any kind of weapon continues to come out of Gaza, the IDF will continue to enforce the blockade.

Hamas has made themselves understood.

Edited by SkyMonkey

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ExpandMyMind

True.

But please let's keep it in context and perhaps explain why, from the Israeli view, these steps have been taken by the Israeli government and it's military.

The Israelis understand Hamas very well as Hamas continues to allow people to fire rocket and mortar rounds at Israeli civilian neighborhoods.

All the words and courtroom lawyering in the world will not change the fact that Arab militants still want to kill Jews.

So long as firing of any kind of weapon continues to come out of Gaza, the IDF will continue to enforce the blockade.

Hamas has made themselves understood.

I understand where you're coming from but 'why' wasn't relevant to the fact that they do indeed still occupy the Gaza. The pretense of rocket fire I will address below.

Actually it largely has nothing to do with 'Jews', as the Hamas leader cleared up. This is not a religious battle, it is a battle of land. Now, obviously (and this is true of both sides) over the years religious hate has grown as a result. But this is understandable (again, from both sides), after decades of battle and the violations by each side of the other's religion. The claim of 'all Jews dead' doesn't hold up, when we consider many Jews who visit Gaza and visit with Hamas.

You make the claim about rocket fire but the rockets are a retaliation. Gaza has been under siege since 2005, the year Hamas stopped suicide bombing I should add, and their civilians are killed almost on a daily basis at times. Only this year over 70 innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed - a fisherman just the other day there - while 28 Israelis have been killed by rocket fire in the entire 10 years since they began. Hamas have made massive steps forward (compared to Israel) when it comes to killing civilians and this has never been recognised by Israel. This is before we even mention the arrests and killings of any Hamas member Israel can get their hands on - and this includes politicians vital to the running of the government.

Not to mention that Israel broke the ceasefire crossing the border to kill Hamas militants on Nov the fourth before the Gaza war - so the weak claim that Israel (the Govt) even actually cared about the ceasefire are very weak - which directly led to the rockets being started up again.

Along with the long term truce offered by Hamas after the Gaza slaughter which Israel flat out refused - and they have repeatedly called for peace only in compliance with international law. Israel haven't recogniused any of this.

I have shown clearly in this thread that Hamas are not the entity, anymore, that we all view (how I viewed) them as.

Edited by expandmymind

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Papagiorgio

With their history of blowing up buses, discos, libraries, and cafes, The onus is on Hamas to show they want peace. They need to cease all pseudo-military operations, and agree to recognize Israel as a legitimate country. The international community is requiring Hamas to recognize Israel. Until they do so they will be stuck where they are.

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danielost

ok expand. according to you if you stop people from entering the phone booth, you are occuping the phone booth even tho you have not entered it.

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Knight Of Shadows

hahahaha then what you doing if not occupying ?

reserving it for a dead girl friend to come back to life and make

phone call ? :D

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ExpandMyMind

ok expand. according to you if you stop people from entering the phone booth, you are occuping the phone booth even tho you have not entered it.

Daniel, I quite clearly used the phone booth analogy before and it was to show that occupying a chair, a phone booth, a car, is not the same as occupying a country. You reversed my example... :wacko:

My point was that countries are different from material objects in that respect. And it isn't 'according to you [me]', it is according to international law that was written before I was even born.

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SkyMonkey

Daniel,

{edit}

My point was that countries are different from material objects in that respect. And it isn't 'according to you [me]', it is according to international law that was written before I was even born.

Daniel,

Expandmymind is correct. The Gaza strip is considered occupied territory, as counter-intuitive as it sounds its the truth.

The Israelis call both Gaza and the Golan Heights "The Occupied Territories".

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SkyMonkey

After reading Expands post (quoted in it's entirety below), I felt compelled to answer some of the more contentious points.

First, Expands post;

Expandmymind wrote;

I understand where you're coming from but 'why' wasn't relevant to the fact that they do indeed still occupy the Gaza. The pretense of rocket fire I will address below.

Actually it largely has nothing to do with 'Jews', as the Hamas leader cleared up. This is not a religious battle, it is a battle of land. Now, obviously (and this is true of both sides) over the years religious hate has grown as a result. But this is understandable (again, from both sides), after decades of battle and the violations by each side of the other's religion. The claim of 'all Jews dead' doesn't hold up, when we consider many Jews who visit Gaza and visit with Hamas.

You make the claim about rocket fire but the rockets are a retaliation. Gaza has been under siege since 2005, the year Hamas stopped suicide bombing I should add, and their civilians are killed almost on a daily basis at times. Only this year over 70 innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed - a fisherman just the other day there - while 28 Israelis have been killed by rocket fire in the entire 10 years since they began. Hamas have made massive steps forward (compared to Israel) when it comes to killing civilians and this has never been recognised by Israel. This is before we even mention the arrests and killings of any Hamas member Israel can get their hands on - and this includes politicians vital to the running of the government.

Not to mention that Israel broke the ceasefire crossing the border to kill Hamas militants on Nov the fourth before the Gaza war - so the weak claim that Israel (the Govt) even actually cared about the ceasefire are very weak - which directly led to the rockets being started up again.

Along with the long term truce offered by Hamas after the Gaza slaughter which Israel flat out refused - and they have repeatedly called for peace only in compliance with international law. Israel haven't recogniused any of this.

I have shown clearly in this thread that Hamas are not the entity, anymore, that we all view (how I viewed) them as.

===========================

Here's my point for point rebuttal;

Expandmymind wrote;

"I understand where you're coming from but 'why' wasn't relevant to the fact that they do indeed still occupy the Gaza."

Right.

The "Why" is always irrelevant when painting Israel as the evil aggressors. Why should I expect anything different on a different message board?

"The pretense of rocket fire I will address below."

Pretense? I'm on the edge of my seat.

"Actually it largely has nothing to do with 'Jews', as the Hamas leader cleared up. This is not a religious battle, it is a battle of land. Now, obviously (and this is true of both sides) over the years religious hate has grown as a result. But this is understandable (again, from both sides), after decades of battle and the violations by each side of the other's religion. "

Yes. Ultimately it does come down to Land. But you and I both know the "Us versus Them" mentality is still very much alive among both populations.

"The claim of 'all Jews dead' doesn't hold up, when we consider many Jews who visit Gaza and visit with Hamas."

Cool, Hamas has declared they don't advocate genocide, that's a step in right direction.

Personally, I never wrote anything about "All Jews dead", I wrote that Arab militants still want to kill Jews. And I'd be willing to bet this is still very true, despite what their politicians are saying. Hamas has admitted they can't control all the various militant groups who operate in Gaza.

"You make the claim about rocket fire but the rockets are a retaliation. Gaza has been under siege since 2005, the year Hamas stopped suicide bombing I should add, and their civilians are killed almost on a daily basis at times. Only this year over 70 innocent Palestinian civilians have been killed - "

Stop the train.

Hold on.

Here is exactly where so many people who are trying to paint Israel as the only bad guys fall flat.

They love to write emotional sensationalist sentences like, "Only this year 70 innocent civilians have been killed." and, "Killed on almost a daily basis" Then do absolutely nothing about about explaining the how's and the why's of the civilian deaths. This way, the folks who are trying to make Israel look bad can say they are merely relating facts, and without explaining the circumstances behind each death, make it look like the IDF goes around indiscriminately killing civilians every day.

According to B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights watchdog group, so far in 2010 there have been 9 Palestinians killed who were not participating in actions against Israeli civilians or military. 9 doesn't look like 70 and there have been more than 9 days in 2010 so both sentences are wrong.

In each one of those 9 cases we have civilians suffering from crossfire or collateral damage, or in simpler terms, people being too close to active Palestinian fighters who are either firing on, or running from the IDF.

And this is a great opportunity to explain the difference between Palestinian civilian deaths, and Israeli civilian deaths.

The commonality is that it's tragic for anyone to lose a loved one, regardless of who pulled the trigger.

The differences are as follows;

Palestinian civilians are dying because Arab militants are setting up crew-served weapons in their gardens or courtyards, firing them and then receiving Israeli counter-fire. These same militants are firing sniper rifles from peoples homes. They are also setting up weapons and spotters in and around hospitals, mosques and schools. This way, they can fire off a few rounds toward Israel, then when the IDF predictably fires back and Palestinian casualties ensue, they can point out how evil and mean the IDF is because they are killing civilians.

Israeli civilians are dying because the Arab militants are aiming at them, or actually not aiming, they simply point their mortars or rockets at a neighborhood and let fly.

Anti-Israeli writers never tell us that the IDF shoots at sources of hostile fire, while the Arab militants shoot at civilians on purpose.

That is the difference.

That is why Israel and most of the rest of the world label the Gaza militants as terrorists rather than freedom fighters.

"a fisherman just the other day there - while 28 Israelis have been killed by rocket fire in the entire 10 years since they began. Hamas have made massive steps forward (compared to Israel) when it comes to killing civilians and this has never been recognised by Israel."

While halting it's program of murdering people on their way to work and school with suicide bombers, Hamas allows militant groups to continue to use Gaza as a base to fire both direct and indirect weapons at Israeli civilians. Israel recognizes there is still a threat coming from Gaza.

This is why Gaza is still under blockade.

"This is before we even mention the arrests and killings of any Hamas member Israel can get their hands on - and this includes politicians vital to the running of the government.

Not to mention that Israel broke the ceasefire crossing the border to kill Hamas militants on Nov the fourth before the Gaza war - so the weak claim that Israel (the Govt) even actually cared about the ceasefire are very weak - which directly led to the rockets being started up again."

The Israeli claim that the November 4th 2008 raid across the border into Gaza was to end the excavation of a tunnel which was being dug on a bearing aimed directly at an IDF guard post.

Once again, in reviewing a British newspaper account of the action we can see how the IDF is aiming at and killing militants, while Hamas simply lets loose a barrage of rockets into Israeli neighborhoods.

Aimed fire at bad guys vs indiscriminate rocket fire at civilians.

From; http://www.guardian....thepalestinians

"Israeli troops crossed into the Gaza Strip late last night near the town of Deir al-Balah. The Israeli military said the target of the raid was a tunnel that they said Hamas was planning to use to capture Israeli soldiers positioned on the border fence 250m away. Four Israeli soldiers were injured in the operation, two moderately and two lightly, the military said.

One Hamas gunman was killed and Palestinians launched a volley of mortars at the Israeli military. An Israeli air strike then killed five more Hamas fighters. In response, Hamas launched 35 rockets into southern Israel, one reaching the city of Ashkelon."

"Along with the long term truce offered by Hamas after the Gaza slaughter which Israel flat out refused - and they have repeatedly called for peace only in compliance with international law. Israel haven't recogniused any of this."

Please show where and when this truce offer by Hamas was presented and refused. I cannot find it despite searching many sites.

On January 17th 2009, Israeli officials announced a unilateral ceasefire, without an agreement from Hamas.

Is this "Israel flat out refusing" to stop the military operation?

At first Hamas promised to fight on despite the Israeli announcement. The next day however, Hamas declared they would stop firing mortars and rockets for one week. On the 21st of January the IDF completely pulled out all it's forces from Gaza.

Since that ceasefire, both sides have broken the agreement with rocket attacks and cross-border actions.

Despite moderation from Egypt, no official cease-fire or truce agreement has been signed by either side.

"I have shown clearly in this thread that Hamas are not the entity, anymore, that we all view (how I viewed) them as.'

It seems you've shown that you will draft posts in order to show Israel as the unprovoked aggressors and Hamas as an organization dedicated to peace, both points being untrue.

Both sides have done killing. Neither side is innocent.

That much is obvious to anyone reasonable enough and interested enough to do just a little research.

Maybe if the Israeli government would stop its people from building in Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights and maybe if Hamas could get all the militant groups to stop firing on Israeli towns then maybe we will see real attempt at peace by both sides.

Edited by SkyMonkey

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First, thanks for the lengthy and substantial reply but I need to say that the whole colour thing makes it impossible to quote you. I'm not sure if you are already aware of this. By the layout of your reply I think you may be for you didn't put my text in quotations.

Right.

The "Why" is always irrelevant when painting Israel as the evil aggressors. Why should I expect anything different on a different message board?

This is largely why I post on this subject, to show the other side. You see, just about everybody who watches or reads general mainstream news already know the reason Israel gives for the blockade and for the recent assault. I don't need to give Israel's reasons because it is Hamas's reasons that are largely obscured. In other words, there is usually only one side being shown. I'm not a journalist, but if I were, then I would no doubt produce all sides of the argument.

My point is emphasised by the fact that most of these organisations where people get their news, do not show the situation in context. The whole reason for the Hamas rockets has been the strangulation of Gaza and the occupation of their territory and the West Bank. Cause and effect are constantly reversed.

Just about the only reason for any Palestinian aggression has been the occupation. This is an inescapable fact.

And just for the record, if you had asked me on these boards even a year ago - before I had read about Hamas - what i thought about them, my opinion would largely conform with your own.

"The pretense of rocket fire I will address below."

Pretense? I'm on the edge of my seat.

Like I sated, the 28 killed in 10 years from over 8600 rockets does not fit in with the IDF's portrayal of the effects on rocket fire. And I will address this in more detail (the context) below.

Yes. Ultimately it does come down to Land. But you and I both know the "Us versus Them" mentality is still very much alive among both populations.

Yes, I made it clear I was aware of the religious tension that has grown from the conflict and I also made clear that I am aware it is from both sides.

Cool, Hamas has declared they don't advocate genocide, that's a step in right direction.

Personally, I never wrote anything about "All Jews dead", I wrote that Arab militants still want to kill Jews. And I'd be willing to bet this is still very true, despite what their politicians are saying. Hamas has admitted they can't control all the various militant groups who operate in Gaza.

Apologies, I misread your quote.

It should be noted, however, that the reason these militias on the rise have been allowed to do so, is due to Hamas's inability to operate and govern due to the blockade and the fear of targeted assassinations. If one of these groups push Hamas out, we will see a return to the madness of before, and this will largely be the fault of Israel's policy with regards to Hamas.

Stop the train.

Hold on.

Here is exactly where so many people who are trying to paint Israel as the only bad guys fall flat.

They love to write emotional sensationalist sentences like, "Only this year 70 innocent civilians have been killed." and, "Killed on almost a daily basis" Then do absolutely nothing about about explaining the how's and the why's of the civilian deaths. This way, the folks who are trying to make Israel look bad can say they are merely relating facts, and without explaining the circumstances behind each death, make it look like the IDF goes around indiscriminately killing civilians every day.

I go into this below. But i should say that I did make clear (as your quote suggest) that only 'at times' they were killed on a daily basis. Which isn't at all inaccurate.

And you will see that I hardly sensationalise things.

According to B'Tselem, an Israeli human rights watchdog group, so far in 2010 there have been 9 Palestinians killed who were not participating in actions against Israeli civilians or military. 9 doesn't look like 70 and there have been more than 9 days in 2010 so both sentences are wrong.

In each one of those 9 cases we have civilians suffering from crossfire or collateral damage, or in simpler terms, people being too close to active Palestinian fighters who are either firing on, or running from the IDF.

Well according to B'Tselem (I'm not sure which human rights organisation I got that figure from) since operation cast lead (just over a year and a half), there have been far more than 9 civilians killed.

http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp?sD=19&sM=01&sY=2009&filterby=event&oferet_stat=after

The number 9 is for minors - and that is only in the Gaza strip. The number of civilians is actually around 54, with another 13 people killed that they were not certain of their actions regarding participation in the hostilities, or in other-words 'unknowns'.

But this still does not help the Israeli case much. 3 people a year from rocket fire, over 50 this year from Israeli forces - it is still a massive reason for Gazans to want revenge (if the 40 year occupation wasn't enough).

So let us further look at this in context. These 28 civilians have been killed and tens if not over 100 from suicide bombs, which have now stopped, also have been killed. Operation Cast Lead alone killed roughly 600-700 Palestinian civilians. If we look at the detail further http://www.btselem.org/english/statistics/casualties.asp?sD=29&sM=09&sY=2000&eD=26&eM=12&eY=2008&filterby=event&oferet_stat=before we see that over the same period since rocket fire started, there have been over 3000 Civilians killed by Israeli forces, with another 600 'unkowns'.

So while I may have been wrong about 'over 70', we can clearly see that in the grand scheme of things, my miscalculation does not affect the overall picture.

And this is a great opportunity to explain the difference between Palestinian civilian deaths, and Israeli civilian deaths.

The commonality is that it's tragic for anyone to lose a loved one, regardless of who pulled the trigger.

The differences are as follows;

Palestinian civilians are dying because Arab militants are setting up crew-served weapons in their gardens or courtyards, firing them and then receiving Israeli counter-fire. These same militants are firing sniper rifles from peoples homes. They are also setting up weapons and spotters in and around hospitals, mosques and schools. This way, they can fire off a few rounds toward Israel, then when the IDF predictably fires back and Palestinian casualties ensue, they can point out how evil and mean the IDF is because they are killing civilians.

This was found by both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch to be untrue. Hamas did not house themselves in with the population. They do not want harm to come to the population because the population are their support (along with the fact that they might actually just care about them - never mentioned by Israel). (You can do a site search for that info - I have posted it on here before).

Hamas, during Cast Lead, did not house themselves where there were populations and they did not use human shields. In stark contrast, Israel had been found to be using 'human shields' and not only that, but when Israel's tanks rolled into Gaza they parked up in heavily populated areas, so it was Israel who dictated where the fighting would be - putting civilians at risk.

Israeli civilians are dying because the Arab militants are aiming at them, or actually not aiming, they simply point their mortars or rockets at a neighborhood and let fly.

Anti-Israeli writers never tell us that the IDF shoots at sources of hostile fire, while the Arab militants shoot at civilians on purpose.

That is the difference.

The Gaza War has shown us that this is not true, along with many, many reports over the years.

Here is a quick example:

Not guilty. The Israeli captain who emptied his rifle into a Palestinian schoolgirl

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2005/nov/16/israel2

The problem that has grown since the end of the First Intifada, is that Israeli forces are, largely (largely is an understatement), not held responsible for their actions. They know they have a free pass so the soldiers, over the past decade and a half, have been gradually getting more brutal.

You should read the B'Tselem report: Void of Responsibility (I think is the name). I have. I posted it in this forum.

And even before things took a turn for the worse, in both Intifadas it was Israel that cause the hostilities to be increased by taking to killing civilians and anyone who protested as a form of quelling the violence - this had the opposite effect as we both know.

Edited by expandmymind

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That is why Israel and most of the rest of the world label the Gaza militants as terrorists rather than freedom fighters.

This is completely untrue.There are onlyu a handful of countries that view Hamas as a terrorist organisation. The US, Canada, Japan and the 'EU' - the EU not being all EU countries I should add, many of them have protested at this classification being given for them including, as far as I'm aware, Britain.

"a fisherman just the other day there - while 28 Israelis have been killed by rocket fire in the entire 10 years since they began. Hamas have made massive steps forward (compared to Israel) when it comes to killing civilians and this has never been recognised by Israel."

While halting it's program of murdering people on their way to work and school with suicide bombers, Hamas allows militant groups to continue to use Gaza as a base to fire both direct and indirect weapons at Israeli civilians. Israel recognizes there is still a threat coming from Gaza.

This is why Gaza is still under blockade.

And this is a fairly flimsy, at best, response to the Occupation. As the statistics make clear.

(and I will also go into detail on the reasons for the blockade at the end - Israeli given reasons I should add).

I think Israel would rather the Gazans exercise their rights to self defence (resistance to occupation is defined as self defence under international law) by no violent means at all. But even the peaceful protests (and the slightly more violent ones) in the West Bank are being curbed. Read the B'Tselem reports, they state clearly that Israel have went as far as changing their own laws (which by the way, after the World Court decision in 2004, ALL laws Israel exercise in the Occupied Territories are completely null and void - they have no standing in law) t make it so that peaceful protesters are viewed in a different light - making them liable to arrests.

The game has been fixed. Quiet appeasement to the occupation is what Israel really want and this is not even slightly reasonable.

The Israeli claim that the November 4th 2008 raid across the border into Gaza was to end the excavation of a tunnel which was being dug on a bearing aimed directly at an IDF guard post.

I'm aware that Israel gave a reason as to why they broke the ceasefire but - true or not - they were still the ones to break it.

"Along with the long term truce offered by Hamas after the Gaza slaughter which Israel flat out refused - and they have repeatedly called for peace only in compliance with international law. Israel haven't recogniused any of this."

Please show where and when this truce offer by Hamas was presented and refused. I cannot find it despite searching many sites.

Hamas: We will accept long-term truce if Gaza borders opened

Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad says his group wants 'to be part of the international community.'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-we-will-accept-long-term-truce-if-gaza-borders-opened-1.269116

The fact is that Israel refuse to recognise Hamas in any capacity. Now, while it could be said that the reverse is true, this isn't entirely true. Hamas refuse to recognise Israel as a 'Jewish State', because their bretherin would effectively become second class citizens in their own country (Israel). 25% of Israel is not Jewish. And they also have (in the past at least) refused to regosnise the 'legitimacy' of the state - due to the fact it was essentially stolen from them.

Also, there is no precedent in history of one country being forced to 'recognise' the other. Even Gandhi refused to recognise the legitimacy of Pakistan. I feel this has been constantly used as an excuse so not to make peace (something not even the most die hard Israeli supporter could not honestly deny- that Israel want peace on any other terms other than their own. Which is silly when international law supports the Palestine's situation, rightly I should add), while always giving Israel the 'moral high ground' (at least in their eyes). Even Egypt did not regognise their right to be there, as far as I'm aware, but they did recognise their right to live in peace.

Since that ceasefire, both sides have broken the agreement with rocket attacks and cross-border actions.

Despite moderation from Egypt, no official cease-fire or truce agreement has been signed by either side.

Not true. After (and during) the Hamas/Israel ceasefire, Israel recognised, along with Hamas, that Hamas did not fire any rockets. A few were fired by splinter groups and individuals, but everyone recognised that Hamas did everything they could to stop it, and for the most part, were entirely successful.

It seems you've shown that you will draft posts in order to show Israel as the unprovoked aggressors and Hamas as an organization dedicated to peace, both points being untrue.

By being the Occupying force, Israel are by definition the agrressor. This is more reversing cause and effect. A tactic that is, often unwittingly, employed by Israel supporters.

While I am under no false illusions that this is not the case ('dedicated to peace), it should be noted that Hamas have stated they would settle for peace, only under what is required by international law and in line with the international consensus that nearly every country in the world votes on every year. If the US hadn't blocked peace for decades, we would have had it a long time ago.

Hamas: Peace with Israel for withdrawal to ’67 borders

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3223438,00.html

Hardly unreasonable, unless you happen to be a Zionist.

Both sides have done killing. Neither side is innocent.

That much is obvious to anyone reasonable enough and interested enough to do just a little research.

But there is one fundamental reason why any people are killed, and that is the illegally Occupied Territories. No occupation, no resistance.

Maybe if the Israeli government would stop its people from building in Jerusalem and in the Golan Heights and maybe if Hamas could get all the militant groups to stop firing on Israeli towns then maybe we will see real attempt at peace by both sides. [/color]

I agree that the settlements are a large part of the problem but they are not the sole problem. There is still the occupation. In the West Bank, Israel has 1/5 of the population while they take 4/5 of the water. The settlements now take up over 40% of the West Bank (in the most arable land), so just stopping the building will not do the trick. Besides, Israel are not even serious about stopping the settlements.

In Gaza, 95% of the water is polluted, they have no electricity for the most part, along with everything else the blockade has inflicted upon them. It's a truly dire situation.

Not to mention that Israel have a systematic campaign of trying to split Gaza from the West Bank - their objective is to split what is left of Palestine in half, destroying any form of unity from being achieved. This is one of the main reasons for the blockade, along with punishing the civilians for voting for Hamas (also admitted by Israel).

Before you hit the source (which may or may not be reliable, I don't know - had never see it before) it was linked through the Guardian paper you quoted above, so I'm guessing it is legit. (also I have posted this before in these forums, possibly from another source, so you can search for it if you wish).

Responding to the humanitarian needs of the population.

- Upholding civilian and economic limitations on the [Gaza] strip.

- Separating [or differentiating, בידול] Judea and Samaria [i.e. West Bank] from Gaza – a security and diplomatic objective.

- Preserving the Quartet’s conditions on Hamas (Hamas as a terrorist entity).

http://www.promisedlandblog.com/?p=3418

And that, is just simply wrong.

But to sum up, before we reverse cause and effect we can clearly see that any violence stems from the occupation.

Edited by expandmymind

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Another article about Hamas and Israel's portrayal of them compared to the actualities on the ground. I recommend following the link to read it all, for anyone who is interested.

Israel’s Lies

Henry Siegman

Western governments and most of the Western media have accepted a number of Israeli claims justifying the military assault on Gaza: that Hamas consistently violated the six-month truce that Israel observed and then refused to extend it; that Israel therefore had no choice but to destroy Hamas’s capacity to launch missiles into Israeli towns; that Hamas is a terrorist organisation, part of a global jihadi network; and that Israel has acted not only in its own defence but on behalf of an international struggle by Western democracies against this network.

I am not aware of a single major American newspaper, radio station or TV channel whose coverage of the assault on Gaza questions this version of events. Criticism of Israel’s actions, if any (and there has been none from the Bush administration), has focused instead on whether the IDF’s carnage is proportional to the threat it sought to counter, and whether it is taking adequate measures to prevent civilian casualties.

Middle East peacemaking has been smothered in deceptive euphemisms, so let me state bluntly that each of these claims is a lie. Israel, not Hamas, violated the truce: Hamas undertook to stop firing rockets into Israel; in return, Israel was to ease its throttlehold on Gaza. In fact, during the truce, it tightened it further. This was confirmed not only by every neutral international observer and NGO on the scene but by Brigadier General (Res.) Shmuel Zakai, a former commander of the IDF’s Gaza Division. In an interview in Ha’aretz on 22 December, he accused Israel’s government of having made a ‘central error’ during the tahdiyeh, the six-month period of relative truce, by failing ‘to take advantage of the calm to improve, rather than markedly worsen, the economic plight of the Palestinians of the Strip … When you create a tahdiyeh, and the economic pressure on the Strip continues,’ General Zakai said, ‘it is obvious that Hamas will try to reach an improved tahdiyeh, and that their way to achieve this is resumed Qassam fire … You cannot just land blows, leave the Palestinians in Gaza in the economic distress they’re in, and expect that Hamas will just sit around and do nothing.’

The truce, which began in June last year and was due for renewal in December, required both parties to refrain from violent action against the other. Hamas had to cease its rocket assaults and prevent the firing of rockets by other groups such as Islamic Jihad (even Israel’s intelligence agencies acknowledged this had been implemented with surprising effectiveness), and Israel had to put a stop to its targeted assassinations and military incursions. This understanding was seriously violated on 4 November, when the IDF entered Gaza and killed six members of Hamas. Hamas responded by launching Qassam rockets and Grad missiles. Even so, it offered to extend the truce, but only on condition that Israel ended its blockade. Israel refused. It could have met its obligation to protect its citizens by agreeing to ease the blockade, but it didn’t even try. It cannot be said that Israel launched its assault to protect its citizens from rockets. It did so to protect its right to continue the strangulation of Gaza’s population.

http://www.lrb.co.uk/v31/n02/henry-siegman/israels-

About Harry Siegman:

Siegman was born in 1930 in Frankfurt, Germany.[2] In America, he studied at City College and New School for Social Research. He was ordained as an Orthodox Rabbi by Yeshiva Torah Vadaath. He served as a chaplain in the Korean War, where he was awarded a Bronze Star and a Purple Heart.[3]

He is a former Senior Fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations.[4] Prior to that, he was the Executive Director of the American Jewish Congress (1978–1994)

Radio Free Europe calls him "a leading U.S. expert on the Middle East."[16] Jewish daily The Forward credits him for publicizing the "Saudi plan".[17] Journalist David Rieff calls him "the most perceptive American observer-participant in the last two decades of Israeli-Palestinian negotiations."[18]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Siegman#Reception

A man who most definitely knows what he is talking about.

Edited by expandmymind

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Erikl
This is completely untrue.There are onlyu a handful of countries that view Hamas as a terrorist organisation. The US, Canada, Japan and the 'EU' - the EU not being all EU countries I should add, many of them have protested at this classification being given for them including, as far as I'm aware, Britain.

Wow Ex. I can't believe you go as far as suggesting that Hamas isn't a terrorist group. The fact that the entire world doesn't recognize them as what truly are, doesn't make them "freedom fighters".

Let's see who is this Hamas you seem to now wash their hands and defend them.

The following is from the Hamas covenant, their party "platform" if you will. This how Hamas should really be understood:

"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Moslems fight the Jews (killing the

Jews), when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O

Moslems, O Abdulla, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad

tree, (evidently a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of

the Jews." (related by al-Bukhari and Moslem)." (p.5, paragraph 3)

"As for the objectives: They are the fighting against the false, defeating it and

vanquishing it so that justice could prevail, homelands be retrieved and from its

mosques would the voice of the mu'azen emerge declaring the establishment of the state

of Islam, so that people and things would return each to their right places and Allah is

our helper." (p.5, paragraph 6)

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf

consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it,

should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single

Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and

presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess

the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem

generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to

represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day? (p.6, paragraph 2)

"Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in

contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement. Abusing any part of

Palestine is abuse directed against part of religion. Nationalism of the Islamic

Resistance Movement is part of its religion. Its members have been fed on that. For the

sake of hoisting the banner of Allah over their homeland they fight. "Allah will be

prominent, but most people do not know." (p.7, paragraph 5).

"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives,

proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors. The

Palestinian people know better than to consent to having their future, rights and fate

toyed with." (p.8, paragraph 2)

"In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their

policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their

breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They

deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the

homeland is a kind of murder." (p. 12, paragraph 3).

Article Twenty-Two:

For a long time, the enemies have been planning, skillfully and with precision, for the

achievement of what they have attained. They took into consideration the causes

affecting the current of events. They strived to amass great and substantive material

wealth which they devoted to the realisation of their dream. With their money, they

took control of the world media, news agencies, the press, publishing houses,

broadcasting stations, and others. With their money they stirred revolutions in various

parts of the world with the purpose of achieving their interests and reaping the fruit

therein. They were behind the French Revolution, the Communist revolution and most

of the revolutions we heard and hear about, here and there. With their money they

formed secret societies, such as Freemasons, Rotary Clubs, the Lions and others in

different parts of the world for the purpose of sabotaging societies and achieving Zionist

interests. With their money they were able to control imperialistic countries and

instigate them to colonize many countries in order to enable them to exploit their

resources and spread corruption there.

You may speak as much as you want about regional and world wars. They were behind

World War I, when they were able to destroy the Islamic Caliphate, making financial

gains and controlling resources. They obtained the Balfour Declaration, formed the

League of Nations through which they could rule the world. They were behind World

War II, through which they made huge financial gains by trading in armaments, and

paved the way for the establishment of their state. It was they who instigated the

replacement of the League of Nations with the United Nations and the Security Council

to enable them to rule the world through them. There is no war going on anywhere,

without having their finger in it. (p.13, paragraph 1,2).

Yes, what a peace seeking, humanitarian organization Hamas is :rolleyes: .

The truth is Hamas is an anti-Semitic, religious fanatic, terrorist organization. They believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (or equal beliefs), that Jews should be genocided, and that Palestine should be an Islamic state, with no democracy.

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President-Elect Acidhead

Political Prisoners in Israel/Palestine.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

Ha!.... the hypocrisy!

Edited by acidhead

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Erikl
Political Prisoners in Israel/Palestine.

1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 7383 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

Ha!.... the hypocrisy!

1 Israeli prisoner isn't allowed to be visited by anyone, not even the red cross, is used to blackmail an entire country and is used as a mean of spreading terrorism.

7383 Palestinian POWs are visited by their relatives, can be visited by any international organization, have the ability to get academic degrees while in prison (and they do), and were arrested for taking part in the planning or participating in act of terror.

Ha!.... the demagogy!

Edited by Erikl

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Wow Ex. I can't believe you go as far as suggesting that Hamas isn't a terrorist group. The fact that the entire world doesn't recognize them as what truly are, doesn't make them "freedom fighters".

Let's see who is this Hamas you seem to now wash their hands and defend them.

The following is from the Hamas covenant, their party "platform" if you will. This how Hamas should really be understood:

Yes, what a peace seeking, humanitarian organization Hamas is :rolleyes: .

The truth is Hamas is an anti-Semitic, religious fanatic, terrorist organization. They believe in the Protocols of the Elders of Zion (or equal beliefs), that Jews should be genocided, and that Palestine should be an Islamic state, with no democracy.

Well if you had bothered to read even the first article of this thread then you would have seen clearly (as I have went on to demonstrate) that Hamas haven't even came close to adopting their charter. See, if you had bothered to read the thread before spouting your opinion then you would already be informed. Hamas haven't adopted their charter. Haven't even come close. This is what happens, just look at the PLO (who called for the same thing) or the IRA (who basically said the same thing about the protestant British) - the charters become obsolete once they enter the political sphere, which Hamas have done.

You say they believe in the Protocols, yet Hamas didn't even write the charter! Many of their members merely adopted it as a means of recruitment and drilling up support.

They are a resistance born through PLO corruption and collaboration (the PLO simply wanted to stay in power). You can try to demonise them all you want but at the end of the day the facts on the ground don't support your theory.

From the mid-1990s onward Hamas “rarely, if at all” adverted to its notoriously anti-Semitic charter and now “no longer cites or refers(Hamas: Political Thought and Practice)

“The Hamas leadership has recognized that its ideological goal is not attainable and will not be in the foreseeable future,” former Mossad head Ephraim Levy observed. “They are ready and willing to see the establishment of a Palestinian state in the temporary borders of 1967. . . . They know that the moment a Palestinian state is established with their cooperation, they will be obligated to change the rules of the game: They will have to adopt a path that could lead them far from their original ideological goals.”

“Hamas agreed to accept any peace agreement negotiated between the leaders of the PLO [Palestine Liberation Organization] and Israel provided it is subsequently approved by Palestinians in a referendum or by a democratically elected government.” (Jimmy Carter).

And I could give many more examples of actual analysis (instead of the usual empty rhetoric) that states the same.

Hamas are a resistance movement by definition erik. They have committed terrible terrorist acts but then, so have Israel. Are you going to tell me they too are a terrorist organisation.

I suggest you read the thread before spouting your seriously misinformed opinion.

And the prisoners that Israel hold are not terrorists, nor have they all been involved in terrorist acts. The fact of the matter is that this is nothing more than an extension of Israel's policy of taking hostages - Israel are the only country in the world to effectively legalise the act, taking 'prisoners' to be used as 'bargaining chips'. After all, this is the reason Hezbollah took prisoners in 2006 - a much omitted fact.

'This Hamas' are simply not the same organisation they once were, something neither you nor the Israeli government can seem to accept.

It should also be noted that, as the most recent article posted above mentions, Israel were responsible for far more horrendous acts of terrorism than Hamas have ever been - back when they were fighting for their own freedom. And, as they were heavily motivated by religion (which is what the Hamas charter is), I could easily quote the Torah and let everyone know exactly what it says about Gentiles - it calls for their death more than the Qur'an anyways.

Jewish/Israeli Massacres and Terrorism

King David Hotel in Jerusalem (July 22, 1946)

What happened: 91 people killed by explosives planted by the Irgun: 28 Britons, 41 Arabs, 17 Jews and five persons of other nationalities. Of the dead, 21 were British government officials, 13 were soldiers, and three were police officers. There were also 49 employees of either the hotel or the British government and five members of the public.

The Bombing Of The King David Hotel (Islamic Association for Palestine)

The Outrage (Britain's Small Wars, 1945-2001)

For the Zionist perspective, see:

Jewish Virtual Encyclopedia

The Irgun Site

Print Resources:

Thurston Clarke, By Blood & Fire: The Attack on the King David Hotel, New York: G.P. Putnam's Sons, 1981, pp 304.

Menachem Begin, The Revolt: The Story of the Irgun, New York: Henry Schuman, Inc., 1951, pp. 212-230 gives Begin's perspective on the affair.

At Tira (December 11, 1947)

What happened: "5 Arabs killed and 6 injured at At Tira village in attack by Jews."

Source: Wilson, Cordon & Search, p. 267 (table).

Location: Unknown; At Tira is a common village name. The index to Morris, Birth, lists five.

Alternate spellings: al-Tira

Village outside Haifa (December 12, 1947)

What happened: "12 Arabs lost their lives when Jews attacked a village outside Haifa."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 20 (citing The Times (London), December 13, 1947).

Village near Tel Aviv (December 14, 1947)

What happened: "Arab village near Tel-Aviv attacked by Jews in steel helmets wearing Khaki uniforms. 18 Arabs killed and 100 injured."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 21 (citing The Times (London), December 15, 1947).

al-Khisas (December 18, 1947)

What happened: 10 civilians killed by the Haganah, most within their own houses.

"On 18th December [1947] there was trouble in the Huleh Valley when Jews entered the Arab village of Khissas, near the Syrian frontier, and killed 10 and wounded 5 Arabs, most of whom were women and children, with grenades and machine-gun fire. They withdrew without suffering any casualties after leaving pamphlets stating that the attack was carried out by the Haganah as a reprisal for casualties suffered in Safad, and an incident near Khissas where a Jew had recently been killed by Arabs. The latter event had been in turn a reprisal for the shooting of an Arab by a Jewish Settlement policeman. So the system of one life for another, and often ten lives for another, was fostered. The attack on Khissas, in which 2 Lebanese and 2 Syrian visitors had been killed, resulted in the first hostile invasion of Arab irregulars over the frontier from Syria."

Source: Wilson, Cordon and Search, p. 159.

Location: Safad district

Alternate spellings: Khisas, Khissas

Khalidi reference: pp. 465-466

Haifa (December 30, 1947)

What happened: "Two bombs thrown from passing vehicle by I.Z.L. or Stern members at crowd of Arab employees standing outside C.R.L. [Consolidated Refineries, Ltd.], Haifa. 6 Arabs killed and 42 wounded. Arabs inside and outside refinery reacted spontaneously and attacked Jewish employees who were outnumbered. 41 Jews killed and 48 injured."

Source: Wilson, Cordon & Search, p. 268 (table).

Other sources:

Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 17 (citing Middle East Journal, April 1948, p. 216).

The riot led the Haganah to raid the village of Balad Esh-Sheikh the next night [or that night?] (see below).

Jerusalem (December 30, 1947)

What happened: The Irgun threw a bomb from a speeding taxi in Jerusalem, killing 11 Arabs and two Britons.

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 17 (citing Middle East Journal, April 1948, p. 216).

Balad Esh-Sheikh (December 31-January 1 night, 1947)

What happened: 14 (perhaps as many as 60) civilians killed by the Haganah, most within their own houses.

"The following night [i.e., following the riot at the Haifa refinery] the Arab village of Balad es Sheik, which lies three miles southeast of Haifa, was attacked by a strong party of armed Haganah, who entered the village dressed as Arabs under heavy covering fire from the high ground. Firing sub-machine guns and throwing grenades into the houses, they succeeded in killing 14 Arabs, of whom 10 were women and children, and wounding 11. Their own casualties were slight."

Source: Wilson, Cordon and Search, p. 158.

Location: Haifa district

Alternate spellings: Balad es Sheik, Balad ash Sheikh

Khalidi reference: pp. 151-154

The refinery riot was one of the few incidents during the 1947-1949 war in which Arabs killed a large number of Jews.

"In the evening of January 30-31, 1947 a mixed force of the First Battalion of Palmach and the 'Carmel' Brigade under the command of Haim Avinoam attacked the village of Balad al-Shaikh (now Tel Hanan). In this operation more than sixty of the enemy, most of them noncombatants, were killed in their houses."

Source: An article by Israeli historian Arieh Vitzhaqi in the April 14, 1972, issue of the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, translated in "From the Hebrew Press," Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 1, no. 4 (summer 1972), p. 144. Also quoted in Hadawi, Bitter Harvest, p. 88.

"In the evening of December 30-31 a mixed force of the First Battalion of the Palmach and the 'Carmel Brigade' under the command of Haim Avinoam attacked the village of Balad al-Shaikh; in this operation more than sixty of the enemy were killed in their houses.... The attacking units entered the village and started operating inside the houses and because of the heavy firing in the rooms, it was impossible to avoid hitting women and children also."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 21 (translating from Ha Sefer Ha-Palmach [The Book of the Palmach], Tel Aviv: Ha-Kibbutz Ha-Meuchad, 1955, p. 55).

Jaffa (January 4, 1948)

What happened: 15-30 people killed, 100 wounded, from a truck bomb planted by the Stern Gang in the middle of the city

"One Sunday in January [1948] a large truck loaded with oranges parked in the centre of Jaffa between Barclays bank and a government office Building. The truck was driven by two Stern Gang terrorists. They had failed on a previous attempt to enter Jaffa, when Arab sentries guarding access to the city had become suspicious and opened fire on the truck, Now on their second try, they had penetrated into the heart of the city with a truck that contained more than just oranges.

Disguised as Arabs, the experienced terrorists walked away from the vehicle, stopping for coffee at a nearby restaurant before leaving Jaffa. Soon after, an explosion demolished many buildings in the centre of the city. According to a Jaffa resident, Basil Ennab, one of the buildings destroyed was 'sort of a feeding centre for children,'[2] many of whom were among the over 100 casualties."

[2] Middle East Centre, Saint Anthony's College (Oxford, UK), Thames Interviews, box II, file 1.

Source: Palumbo, pp. 83-84. See generally Chapter V, "The Fall of Jaffa," pp. 82-94.

Other Sources:

"Stern Gang members bombed a crowded square in Jaffa, killing between 15 and 30 people and wounding 98." Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 17 (citing Middle East Journal, April 1948, p. 217).

"Jews penetrate into Jaffa, blow up the headquarters of the Arab National Committee; heavy explosion also destroys police station, many shops and Barclay's Bank. Casualty list of 9 Arabs killed and 71 wounded probably incomplete. (Jews dressed as Arabs drove a lorry of orange crates and left it in front of the building.)" Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 19 (citing The Times (London), January 5, 1948).

Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem (January 4-5 night, 1948)

What happened: 10-25 killed by the bombing of the hotel by Haganah.

"The Katamon district in West Jerusalem was another area from which the local inhabitants were driven out by the Haganah. Populated by mainly Christian Arabs with some Muslim and British residents, Katamon took its name from an Orthodox monastery situated on a hill which dominated the district. According to Sami Haddawi, a long-time resident of Katamon, the section was regarded as a 'strategic area' which the Jewish forces needed if they were to secure their hold over West Jerusalem. On the night of 3-4 January, the Haganah made its move.

The target was the Semiramis Hotel, one of the well-known landmarks of the district. The hotel was only two blocks away from Sami Haddawi's home so that he clearly recalls the huge explosion when the Semiramis was dynamited by the Zionists. A total of twenty-six people were killed, including a Spanish diplomat and numerous women and children. The Haganah claimed that the hotel had been 'used as a base for marauding Arab gangs and headquarters of the Arab military youth organization.' But the British administration, which still exercised at least nominal control, investigated the incident and found that the Jewish charge that the Semiramis was a military headquarters was 'entirely without foundation.' The British report called the bombing 'wholesale murder of innocent people.'[10]"

[10] Central Zionist Archives (Jerusalem) S25/4013.

Source: Palumbo, p. 98. Note that the date given for the bombing appears to be wrong, as most sources place the blast on the night of January 4/5.

Other Sources:

"Haganah claimed responsibility for blowing up of the Semiramis Hotel. 20 people dead, among them the Spanish Consul. 'Haganah claims guests in the hotel must have been cooperating with Arab gangs.' Government inquiry later establishes the falsehood of the accusation." Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 19-20 (citing The Times (London), January 6, 1948).

"Haganah blew up Semiramis Hotel in Jerusalem killing 12 Arabs and injuring 2." Wilson, Cordon & Search, p. 269 (table).

Jaffa Gate in Jerusalem (January 7, 1948)

What happened: "A Jewish driver used a British Army car to get past [an] Arab barricade at Jaffa Gate. The bomb he threw rolled on to a cafe near the gate. 17 Arabs dead so far."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 17 (citing The Times (London), Jan. 8, 1948).

Unknown Location (January 16, 1948)

What happened: "Jews today blew up 3 Arab buildings. In the first 8 children between the ages of 18 months and 12 years died, one child is still under the debris and one woman died. In the second, 5 Arabs died and 5 are still buried."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 20 (citing The Times (London), Jan. 17, 1948).

Tireh (February 10, 1948)

What happened: "12 Arabs returning to Tireh village near Tulkarm were stopped by a large party of Jews who fired at them. Some sought refuge in a house but were followed and fired at. 7 Arabs killed, 5 injured."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists? (citing The Times (London), February 11, 1948).

Bus from Safad (February 12, 1948)

What happened: "Armed Jews attacked an Arab bus from Safad. Explosion in bus kills 5 Arabs and injures 5."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 19 (citing The Times (London), February 13, 1948).

Sa'sa' (February 14-15 night, 1948)

What happened: 60 civilians killed, most within their own houses.

"In this operation, which was for many years to be regarded as a model raid because of the high standard of its execution, twenty houses were blown up over their inhabitants, and some sixty Arabs were killed, most of them women and children."

Source: An article by Israeli historian Arieh Vitzhaqi from the April 14, 1972, issue of the Israeli newspaper Yediot Aharonot, translated in "From the Hebrew Press," Journal of Palestine Studies, vol. 1, no. 4 (summer 1972), p. 145. Also quoted in Hadawi, Bitter Harvest, p. 88; and Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 21-22.

Location: Safad district

Alternate spellings: Sa'sa

Khalidi reference: pp. 495-497

See also Jon Kimche and David Kimche, Both Sides of the Hill: Britain and the Palestine War, London: Secker & Warburg, 1960, p. 84.

Sa'sa' was subjected to two massacres. The second one appears to have taken place on October 30. See the entry below, under that date, for information on the second massacre.

Qisarya (February 15-20?, 1948)

What happened: "Another case [of a massacre] happened in Caesarea. In February 1948 the Fourth Battalion of the Palmach forces, under the command of Josef Tabenkin, conquered Caesarea. According to Milstein, all those who did not escape from the village were killed. Milstein gleaned testimonies about this fact from fighters who participated in the conquest."

Source: "Not Only Deir Yassin" (Guy Erlich, Ha'ir [israeli newspaper], 6 May 1992) (quoting Israeli military historian Uri Milstein)

Location: Haifa district

Alternate spellings: Caesarea

Khalidi reference: pp. 182-184

Additional sources:

Morris, Birth, p. 54, recounts that Jewish militas conquered Qisarya on February 15 and expelled the remaining population on the 20th. As Milstein's account doesn't date the killings, I have given this time frame.

Haifa (February 20, 1948)

What happened: Jews attacked the Arab sections of Haifa with mortars, killing at least 6 Arabs and wounding 36.

Source: Who Are the Terrorists? (citing Middle East Journal, April 1948, p. 220.

Khantara-Haifa Train (February 27, 1948)

What happened: "Khantara-Haifa train near Rehovoth by Jews. 27 British soldiers killed and 36 wounded."

Source: Wilson, Cordon & Search, p. 271 (table).

Haifa (March 3, 1948)

What happened: "Stern Gang destroyed Salameh Building in Haifa with explosive vehicle. 11 Arabs killed, 27 wounded."

Source: Wilson, Cordon & Search, p. 271 (table).

Other sources:

"The Stern Gang claimed responsibility for the detonation of an army truck in front of the Salam building in Haifa. Fourteen Arabs were killed and at least 26 wounded." Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 20 (citing Middle East Journal, July 1948, p. 329).

al-Husayniyya (March 12 and 16-17, 1948)

What happened: Palmach twice raided the village of al-Husayniyya, killing 15 and wounding 20 in the first attack on March 12, and killing "more than 30" in the second onslaught on the evening of March 16-17.

Location: Safad district, 11 km. from town of Safad.

Alternate spellings: Al Huseiniya, Kfar Husseinia

Sources:

1. An article in the New York Times of March 14, 1948, cited in Khalidi, All that Remains, p. 456-457, describes the March 12 assault.

2. Morris, Birth, p. 157 cites Palmach reports for the following narrative: "In March, the Palamch's 3rd Battalion twice raided the village of Al Huseiniya, near the Hula Lake in Upper Galilee. In the first raid, on 12 March, the battalion blew up five houses. In the second raid, on 16-17 March, 'more than 30 Arab adults (excluding women and children) were killed ... The village was abandoned byall its inhabitants.'"

3. Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 22, cites Arthur Koestler, Promise and Fulfillment: Palestine 1917-1949, New York: Macmillan, 1949, p. 159, for the second attack.

Train near Benjamina (March 31, 1948)

What happened: "Jews blew up train near Benjamina killing 24 Arabs and injuring 61."

Source: Wilson, Cordon & Search, p. 272 (table).

al-Sarafand (April 5, 1948)

What happened: "Jews attacked the Arab village of Sarafand. 16 Arabs were killed and 12 wounded. Most Arabs were killed when a house was mortared."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists? (citing The Times (London), April 6, 1948).

Location: Haifa district

Alternate spellings: as Sarafand, Sarafand

Khalidi reference: p. 188

Deir Yassin (April 9-11, 1948)

1. Websites

Coming to Terms with Deir Yassin (PEACE Middle East Dialog Group)

Dayr Yasin (Palestine Remembered)

Deir Yassin: Arab & Jewish Tragedy in Palestine (1998 novel by Ray Hanania)

Deir Yassin Committee (Yahoo! eGroup for descendants from Deir Yassin)

Deir Yassin Remembered

Open Directory: Deir Yassin

Survivors' Testimonies (alnakba.org)

2. Articles

"Jews May Not Want to Look at This" (Robert Fisk; The Independent; April 7, 2002)

"The 1948 Massacre at Deir Yassin Revisited" (Matthew Hogan; Historian; Winter, 2001)

"Deir Yasin: Still Remembered After 51 Years" (Pat and Samir Twair; Washington Report on Middle East Affairs; April/May 1999)

"On the Fiftieth Anniversary of Deir Yassin: A Jewish Perspective on Memory, Justice and Reconciliation" (Marc H. Ellis; Ariga; April 1998)

"Reinterpreting Deir Yassin" (Sharif Kanaana; Birzeit University; April, 1998)

"Remembering Deir Yassin (James Zoghby; Al-Ahram Weekly; April 1998)

"Deir Yassin Remembered" (Daniel A. McGowan; The Link; volume 29, issue 4 (September-October, 1996))

Print Resources:

Daniel McGowan and Marc Ellis, Remembering Deir Yassin: The Future of Israel and Palestine, New York: Olive Branch Press, 1998

3. Zionist Denials

"Deir Yassin" at Jewish Virtual Encyclopedia

"Deir Yassin: History of a Lie"

"Deir Yassin" at The Irgun Site

Tel Litvinsky (April 16, 1948)

What happened: "Jews attack the former British Army camp at Tel Litvinsky and kill 90 Arabs there."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 20 (citing The Times (London), April 17, 1948).

Tiberias (April 19, 1948)

What happened: "14 Arabs were killed in Tiberias in a house blown up by Jews."

Source: Who Are the Terrorists?, p. 20 (citing The Times (London), April 20, 1948).

Ayn al-Zaytun and perhaps other nearby villages (May 1-4, 1948)

What happened: Apparently five separate killings of various magnitudes took place over three or four days: (1) Barrel bomb and grenade attacks by the Palmach killed and injured many of the villagers as the militia was attacking the village. (2) "Several" villagers in Ayn al-Zaytun were shot, and 37 young men were taken prisoner, when the Palmach conquered the village on May 1. (3) On May 3 or 4, "some 70" Arab prisoners, probably including these 37, were massacred with their hands still tied. (4) "23 Arabs" taken from Ayn al-Zaytun and shot. (5) 30 Arab prisoners who tried to escape were shot. "It is possible that they were killed chained. Next morning a platoon was sent to bury them." The source for the final two atrocities does not date them.

Nazzal describes the attack on the village:

"During the night of May 1, 1948, a Palmach unit, with mules loaded with ammunition, advanced towards the village of Ein ez Zeitun by way of Tall al Durraiyat, which overlooks the village to the north. From the top of the hill, Palmach soldiers rolled barrels filled with explosives down the hill to the village and threw hand grenades, killing and injuring many of the villagers."

Source: Nazzal, The Palestinian Exodus, pp. 34-35.

Massacres two and three are attested by Morris:

After the Palmach took Ayn al-Zaytun on May 1, "several villagers apparently were shot by the Palmach troops." [from note 133 on page 321] "Some 37 of the young men caught in the village were detained. They were probably among the 70 or so Arab prisoners massacred by two Palmach 3rd Battalion soldiers, on Battalion OC Moshe Kelman's orders, on 3 or 4 May in the gully between Ein az Zeitun and Safad." [from page 102]

"Kelman's company commanders all refused to carry out the massacre or to allow their men to carry it out. The battalion OC in the end had to use two 'broken' men, who did not belong to the fighting formations and who claimed that they had suffered at Arab hands earlier in the war, to do the killing. Afterwards, Kelman assigned Ben-Yehuda [Netiva Ben-Yehuda--see below] to untie the hands of the dead as a Red Cross visit to the area was expected." [from note 133 on page 321]

Source: Morris, Birth, p. 102 and note 133 on p. 321.

Netiva Ben-Yehuda recounted the slaughter in a book: Miba'ad La'avutot (Through the Binding Ropes), Jerusalem: Domino Press, 1985, pp. 243-248. According to Morris, "Ben-Yehuda graphically describes the prelude to, and aftermath of, the slaughter of the 70, which she did not witness."

See also Nazzal, The Palestinian Exodus, p. 107, which states (without identifying his source) that "The Zionists separated the men from their families, beat and humiliated a few villagers, crucified one of the villagers on a tree, and took at random thirty-seven boys as hostages, who were never heard of again."

The final two massacres are attested by Israeli military historian Uri Milstein:

"The historian Uri Milstein presented in his book series 'The History of the War of Independence' a number of massacres. Three more cases came to his knowledge after he finished writing. One case happened in Ayn Zaytoon. According to Milstein two massacres happened there in addition to the case described by Netiva Ben Yehuda in her book 'Within the Bounds' (mibe'ad la'avutot). Milstein possesses a testimony from a soldier named Aharon Yo'eli: 'Three men from Safad came to Ayn Zaytoon, they took 23 Arabs, told them they were murderers and gangsters, took from them their watches and put them in their pockets, led them over the hills and killed them. This was the revenge of the Jews of Safad. I understood that our commanders were looking for additional killers to execute such jobs. Not everybody in Safad was a Hassid [strictly observing Jew]. In my opinion this was not the execution of prisoners but the killing of Arab murderers. The rest were expelled in the direction of the Germak that same evening and to make them go fast, we shot at them.' The second case was reported to Milstein by a soldier named Yitzhak Golan, as he referred to thirty prisoners who were brought to interrogation in Har Kna'an: 'The men of the Intelligence Unit interrogated them and after the interrogation the question came up what to do with them. We were told to take them down to the Rosh Pina police station. On the way they attempted to escape so we shot at them. There was no alternative. The danger was that they might reach Safad and would tell there how few weapons and manpower we had. It is possible that they were killed chained. Next morning a platoon was sent to bury them.'"

Source: "Not Only Deir Yassin" (Guy Erlich, Ha'ir [israeli newspaper], 6 May 1992).

Location: Safad district

Alternate spellings: Ayn Zaytoon, Ein az Zeitun

Khalidi reference: pp. 436-438

Abu Shuska (May 13-14 night?, 1948)

What happened: "But Yitzhaki kept the testimonies. The first case he presents happened in Tel Gezer [i.e., Abu Shuska]. A soldier of the Kiryati Brigade (...) testifies that his colleagues got hold of ten Arab men and two Arab women, a young one and an old one. All the men were murdered. The young woman was raped and her destiny was unknown. The old woman was murdered. Yitzhaki tells that he discovered the testimony in a specific folder containing testimonies from Guard Units (Kheil Mishmar) in the IDF archives. Later he also obtained an oral testimony about this event from a person who wished to remain anonymous."

Source:"Not Only Deir Yassin" (Guy Erlich, Ha'ir [israeli newspaper], 6 May 1992) (quoting Israeli historian Aryeh Yitzhaki)

Location: Haifa district

Khalidi reference: pp. 142-143.

Morris, Birth, p. 127, says that the Jewish assault on Abu Shuska began with a mortar attack on the night of May 13-14, but he doesn't mention the massacre, and the information provided by Aryeh Yitzhaki doesn't date the atrocity. Therefore, the date of the massacre is uncertain; I've tentatively used the May 13-14 date.

al-Bassa (May 14?, 1948)

What happened: Several killings of villagers were recounted by survivors.

"Mahmud Hassan Dukhi returned two days after the village had fallen to bring back his mother, who had insisted on staying, only to find her burnt body at his home. Hussain As'ad Khalil, who also returned, reported:

'... I saw the bodies of Abdullah Isma'il Muhammad, Ahmad Muhammad Khalil, and Ali Hussain Ali, who had been killed by Jewish soldiers as they tried to infiltrate into the village. ...'

Hussain As'ad Khalil's uncle and his wife, who stayed on after the fall of El Bassa ... described the Jewish occupation of the village:

"The day the village fell, Jewish soldiers ordered all those who remained in the village to gather in the church. Simultaneously, they took a few young people--including Salim Darwish and his sister, Illin -- outside the church and shot them dead. Soon after, they ordered us to bury them."

Source: Nazzal, The Palestinian Exodus, p. 58 (who adds that Hussain As'ad Khalil's uncle and his wife, who asked that their names not be used, gave him the names of five people killed in the process of occupation)

Location: Acre district

Alternate spellings: El Bassa

Khalidi reference: pp. 6-8

Acre (May 18, 1948)

What happened: After capturing Acre on May 18, Israeli troops killed at least 100 Arab civilians.

"Several months after the Israeli capture of Acre, Lieutenant Petite, a United Nations observer from France, visited Acre to investigate Arab charges that those Palestinians who remained under Israeli rule were being mistreated. ...

Lieutenant Petite noted that the Jews had murdered at least 100 Arab civilians in Acre. In particular the Israelis killed many residents of the new city who refused to move into the portion of the old city that was being used as an Arab ghetto. The Israelis considered the new city totally off-limits to Arabs.

The case of Mohammed Fayez Soufi was typical. He was forced to leave his home in the new part of town and was relocated in the portion of the old city of Acre that had not been demolished. When Mohammed and four of his friends went back to their former homes in the new city to get food, they were stopped by a gang of Israeli soldiers who put a pistol to each of their heads and forced them to drink cyanide. Mohammed faked swallowing the poison but his friends were not so lucky. After half an hour, three of the Arabs died and were tossed in the sea by the Israelis. Several days later, their bodies were washed up on the shore."

Source: Palumbo, Palestinian Catastrophe, p. 119, relying on Petite's reports, stored at United Nations Archives 13/3.3.1, box 13.

Possible caution: I have not seen this massacre noted anywhere except in Palumbo's work. While the timing is consistent with massacres in the same area, additional evidence would be useful.

al-Kabri (May 20, 1948)

What happened: Two groups of al-Kabri villagers killed; in one case, "several" youngsters were machine-gunned (some survived); in the other, the Israelis shot (and apparently killed) six refugees from the village whom they had seized trying to escape.

"On 20 May 1948 the Karmeli Brigade conquered the village Kabri. Dov Yirmiya, who was a company commander in the 21th battalion, tells: 'Kabri was conquered without a fight. Almost all inhabitants fled. One of the soldiers, Yehuda Reshef, who was together with his brother among the few rescapees from the Yehi'am convoy, got hold of a few youngsters who did not escape, probably seven, ordered them to fill up some ditches dug as an obstacle and then lined them up and fired at them with a machine gun. A few died but some of the wounded succeeded to escape. The battalion commander did not react. Receive was a brave fighter and as a rescapee from the Yehi'am convoy, enjoyed special status in the battalion. He advanced later to the grade of Brigadier General. He justified his action as an act of revenge.'

'When the action ended, we left, namely the battalion commander Dov Tschitchiss, Education Officer Tzadok Eshel, the driver and myself. We drove over fields to Nahariya. While driving we saw refugees escaping to the North. The battalion commander ordered the driver to stop and went with the driver and the Education Officer to chase an Arab who was escaping with a girl eight or nine years old. I heard shots and had scarcely the time to understand what happened. When they returned, the battalion commander declared: We killed them. I asked: The girl too? And he answered to me: No, no, we did not kill the girl.'"

Source: "Not Only Deir Yassin" (Guy Erlich, Ha'ir [israeli newspaper], 6 May 1992)

"My husband and I left Kabri the day before it fell. ... At dawn [the next day], while my husband was preparing for his morning prayer, our friend Raja passed us and urged us to proceed, saying that we should run. ... It was not too long before we were met by the Jews. ... They took us and a few other villagers (...) in an armoured car back to the village. There a Jewish officer interrogated us and, putting a gun to my husband's neck, he said "You are from Kabri?" .... The Jews took away my husband, Ibrahim Dabajah, Hussain Hassan al-Khubaizah, Khalil al-Tamlawi, Uthman Iban As'ad Mahmud, and Raja. They left the rest of us.... An officer came to me and asked me not to cry. We slept in the village orchards that night. The next morning, Umm Hussain and I went to the village. ... I saw Umm Taha on the way to the village courtyard. She cried and said "You had better go see your dead husband." I found him. He was shot in the back of the head."

Source: Nazzal, Palestinian Exodus, p. 61-62 (quoting Aminah Muhammad Musa, interviewed at Burj al-Barajnih Camp, Beirut, Lebanon, February 24, 1973).

Location: Acre district

Alternate spellings: Kabri

Khalidi reference: pp. 19-20

Other sources: Morris, Birth, p. 125, states that al-Kabri was captured on May 20-21, and that "Al Kabri had long been a centre of anti-Yishuv forces. In early May, most of its inhabitants fled following a Haganah retaliatory action, in which a number of villagers were killed."

al-Tantura (May 22-23, 1948)

What happened: More than 200 villagers, mostly unarmed young men, shot by the Israeli army's Alexandroni Brigade.

"The Tantura Massacre, 22-23 May 1948" (Journal of Palestine Studies; Vol XXX, No. 3 [spring 2001; Issue 119])

"The Tantura Case in Israel: The Katz Research and Trial" (Ilan Pappe; Journal of Palestine Studies; Vol XXX, No. 3 [spring 2001; Issue 119])

Tantura Massacre Exposed: 21 Eyewitness Testimonies of War Crimes against Humanity (PalestineRemembered.com)

For Zionist denials, see:

"History's Revenge" (Avi Davis; israelinsider; November 20, 2001)

PalestineFacts.org

Location: Haifa district

Alternate spellings: Tantura

Khalidi reference: pp. 193-195

Lydda (July 11-12, 1948)

What happened: Several hundred civilians killed by Israeli troops, including 80 machine-gunned inside the Dahmash Mosque.

http://guardian.150m.com/palestine/israeli-massacres.htm

All referenced and sourced (and that isn't even half of them).

Now, according to you, once a <insert slogan here> always a <insert slogan here>. So by only applying your own logic, we can safely say (which I don't believe) that Israel are one of the most brutal 'terrorist organisations' the world has ever seen!

Yeah, nice try, erik, but as I've said before: I see through you like glass.

Edited by expandmymind

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