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tazjet

Nazi Atomic bomb used in 1943

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Hanslune

We did have a train wreck of a thread about radiationless mini nukes used on 9/11. :rolleyes:

The Germans did set up several weather stations in Greenland, but they were all lost quite quickly to the allies. I have never heard of any unmanned stations though.

A special unit, the Sirius patrol, was created to search out for German bases and that unit still exist today. It became rather famous, atleat in Denmark, after our crown prince served there. https://en.wikipedia...atruljen_Sirius

Yes I had heard of that unit before as I had read about the Norwegion/Danish clash on the territory. I had forgotten about its WWII involvement. I also came across them when dealing with the US army units that were earmarked to garrison Iceland in case of WWIII

Ah after a search I found it

https://en.wikipedia...er_Station_Kurt

The station was forgotten until 1977 when Peter Johnson, a geomorphologist working on an unrelated project, stumbled upon the German weather station. He suspected it was a Canadian military installation, and named it "Martin Bay 7".[6] Around the same time, a retired Siemens engineer named Franz Selinger, who was writing a history of the company, went through Sommermeyer's papers and learned of the station's existence.[2] He contacted Canadian Department of National Defence historian W.A.B. Douglas, who went to the site with a team in 1981 and found the station still there, although canisters had been opened and components strewn about the site. Weather Station Kurt was brought to Ottawa and is now on display at the Canadian War Museum.
Edited by Hanslune
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PersonFromPorlock

Why? Is this new material or are you recycling what has already been discussed and dismissed? We both know this has been discussed to death.

Hanslune, I'm sure you know that 'proof by repetition' is a logical technique now taught in all the major universities. Mostly in the Humanities so far, but even so it has already made an impact on the natural sciences, for instance climatology.... :innocent:

Edited by PersonFromPorlock

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

Ah after a search I found it

https://en.wikipedia...er_Station_Kurt

Thanks !

It just goes to show that World War II is a very interesting subject, even without having to invent stuff.

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Hanslune

Thanks !

It just goes to show that World War II is a very interesting subject, even without having to invent stuff.

All kinds of little tid bits here and there

https://www.google.com/search?q=weather+station+kurt&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwil7s3t4JbLAhVO3mMKHRUaDqUQ7AkINQ&biw=1760&bih=843

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toast

The Germans did set up several weather stations in Greenland, but they were all lost quite quickly to the allies.

I have never heard of any unmanned stations though.

Pending CT: The nazi weather stations in Greenland were not just passive devices, they were actice devices to

manipulate the weather in the Atlantik Ocean, England, the US and Canada. The devices had been looted by

the US in 1943 and the nazi technology has been developed further in Los Alamos, resulting into the kickoff

of the HAARP program.

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Hanslune

Pending CT: The nazi weather stations in Greenland were not just passive devices, they were actice devices to

manipulate the weather in the Atlantik Ocean, England, the US and Canada. The devices had been looted by

the US in 1943 and the nazi technology has been developed further in Los Alamos, resulting into the kickoff

of the HAARP program.

Excellent ad lib!

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Hanslune

Hanslune, I'm sure you know that 'proof by repetition' is a logical technique now taught in all the major universities. Mostly in the Humanities so far, but even so it has already made an impact on the natural sciences, for instance climatology.... :innocent:

Why yes and Cladking tried the 'stating something to be true when it wasn't technique over and over technique' for a number of years here. A check with another forum and yep, he's still running the same propaganda trick over there still!

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williamjpellas2

You have no game you are simply repeating what failed before and again you failed to link to where this document is - but we already knew you wouldn't I just asked because I wanted to see you lie about it. So since this document doesn't exist why do you keep pretending it does

You, sir, are a jackass. I have not only posted photos that I took, in person, at the official national archives of the United State of America in College Park, Maryland, but also breadcrumbed them. That is, I also photographed the binder in which the document used by the op to start this thread is located. YOU are the one who is just repeating falsehood. Over and over and over again. It would be child's play for you or anyone reading this to go to the Archives themselves, and see personally whether I am lying or not. But of course you won't do that. Perhaps there are others here who will. In any case I am through with you. Go troll and get your passive-aggressive jollies with someone else.

Edited by williamjpellas2

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Thorvir

No one's mentioned the Nazi Moon Base yet?

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Thorvir

You have no game you are simply repeating what failed before and again you failed to link to where this document is - but we already knew you wouldn't I just asked because I wanted to see you lie about it. So since this document doesn't exist why do you keep pretending it does

You, sir, are a jackass. I have not only posted photos that I took, in person, at the official national archives of the United State of America in College Park, Maryland, but also breadcrumbed them. That is, I also photographed the binder in which the document used by the op to start this thread is located. YOU are the one who is just repeating falsehood. Over and over and over again. It would be child's play for you or anyone reading this to go to the Archives themselves, and see personally whether I am lying or not. But of course you won't do that. Perhaps there are others here who will. In any case I am through with you. Go troll and get your passive-aggressive jollies with someone else.

Nazi Atomic Bomb never happened. Just accept it.

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williamjpellas2

Meanwhile, for the benefit of anyone interested in picking up the same or similar trail:

My interest in this topic is actually rooted in my study of the WWII Japanese atomic bomb projects, not the German. It was in exploring what Japan did that the question gradually took shape in my mind as to whether there was any cross-pollination between the two nations in terms of their respective work on atomic or nuclear weapons (the two are not always the same thing). My digging led me to Simon Gunson's "Nazi A-Bomb" website, which is where I first encountered the MAGIC intercept being discussed---in between the unfortunate, unnecessary and counterproductive juvenile snark---in this thread.

To be honest, my own first reaction to what I read on Gunson's website was that there must be some mistake, or else that the alleged MAGIC intercept was a fake or a hoax. Either that, or someone very high up in intelligence circles must have been feeding stuff like this to him from "behind the curtain". That's why I decided to make the trip from Kentucky to College Park, Maryland and see for myself. Prior to going, I made the acquaintance of a retired US Air Force intelligence officer who had likewise been researching the Japanese projects for some years. He graciously put me up at his house in Virginia while I made the daily visits to NARA.

One of the first tasks I undertook at NARA was to take the archive location provided by Gunson to one of the archivists who work at the College Park facility. She led me straight to the binder you see in the photograph immediately below:

PB230057.jpg

PB230043.jpg

When I asked her what "SRA" referred to, she said that there were two files that contained intercepted messages from wartime Japanese military attache officers. SRA was for the Army intercepts, while SRN meant the Navy version. I did not get a chance to look at the Navy messages (though I intend to do so if I can ever make it back to the Archives) but the precise location of the intercept we are discussing is spelled out in plain English, in my own handwriting, immediately above. Anyone reading this can thus go to NARA themselves and see, touch, read, and photograph the same documents that I did.

Now, here is the rest of this particular message, direct to you from the US National Archives:

PB230044.jpg

PB230047.jpg

PB230048.jpg

PB230049.jpg

PB230050.jpg

There you have it, just as I saw it, touched it, and photographed it myself, in person, in 2012.

Evidently, the original documents no longer exist in their original form, as the current SRA file is, obviously, made up of copies of the originals. I am not sure if these were old-fashioned mimeographs, or Xerox-type photocopies. After having confirmed the existence of Gunson's document, I next looked "on either side" of this particular intercept to see if there were any other mentions of this topic. Unfortunately I was pressed for time and could not search for more than a hundred or so pages before and after the December 1944 date stamped on the intercept you see above. This was the equivalent of checking for about 6 months before and 6 months after December 1944, and I did not see anything else about the alleged-to-exist German nuclear weapons, which I found odd. But to prove that I did, in fact, look further in this particular file, here are some other interesting tidbits.

First, a brief mention of a significant quantity of mercury going from Germany to Japan. This is dated June 1944 and is significant because it indicates considerable cooperation between the Japanese Army and Navy at an earlier date than is thought to be the case by most historians. The intraservice rivalry between the two branches was incredibly fierce and unquestionably caused great harm to the overall Japanese war effort, but it appears from this and other documents that they had buried the hatchet by the summer of 1944 if not earlier than that.

PB230051.jpg

Next, a message from Tokyo to Berlin in response to a German inquiry regarding a rumor that Japanese forces had used poison gas in combat:

PB230056.jpg

Here is some espionage originating from Gibraltar or its immediate vicinity. Someone---probably a Spanish spy, but maybe a pro-Axis Brit stationed at the Rock?---is describing an American sea convoy passing by. Note that the transmission in this case was sent from Lisbon, Spain, to Berlin, Germany. While it was no secret during the war itself that Spain leaned heavily pro-Axis despite her "neutrality", this is further confirmation to my mind that Spain was a co-belligerent in everything but name.

PB230054.jpg

Edited by williamjpellas2

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Noteverythingisaconspiracy

Meanwhile, for the benefit of anyone interested in picking up the same or similar trail:

blockquote><p>Links doesn

I all really boils down to one simple question Williamjpellas2:

- Show us the evidence that the Germans had made sufficient amounts of fissile material (U235, U233 or Pu239) for one or more nuclear weapons ?

Please use facts, not fiction, so any mention of "Die Glocke" or "Red Mercury" is not a credible answer.

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williamjpellas2

There is a lot more where that came from, including information about Japanese Army and Navy interest in both the Me-262 jet fighter and the Me-163 Komet rocket-powered interceptor, etc.

But back to the intercept alleging Nazi nuclear weapons and their use in combat against the Russians.

In addition to the problems I mentioned above, it should be noted that the Army attache officer making the report also alleges that the 1943 attack wasn't even the first. He claims that German nuclear weapons were employed against Sevastopol. This would have been sometime between October 1941 and July 1942, when this enormous Russian stronghold finally fell. This claim, frankly, is too much even for me and there are a number of plausible alternative explanations. The most likely is a direct hit by the "Schwerer Gustav" supergun on a gigantic Red Army ammunition magazine. The Gustav fired shells that weighed 7 tons out to a range of 29 miles, and it doesn't take much imagination to picture the kind of detonation that must have occurred when one of these projectiles pierced the concrete around the Russian stockpile and blew the whole thing into the sky.

As for the 1943 attack, I wouldn't be shocked if it actually took place, but neither would I be surprised if it did not. For the record, I consider Luigi Romersma's 1944 report and Rainer Karlsch's description of the heereswaffenamt test near Ohrdurf in 1945 (which is backed up by a top secret Soviet intelligence report that Karlsch found in Russian archives and also by the fact that German scientist Walter Gerlach's wartime diary is still classified to this day) to be much better documented and far more likely to have occurred. As for any connection between the German and Japanese programs, there is no doubt that they exchanged information and materiel in some form, but precisely what it was is not yet clear to me from my research. I have some suspicions but they are mostly extrapolations from what is and is not present in various documents and so I must emphasize that my thoughts at that point are informed speculations and not hard conclusions.

Edited by williamjpellas2

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williamjpellas2

snapback.pngNoteverythingisaconspiracy, on 25 February 2016 - 07:25 AM, said:

Links doesn't work for me, but since you are back how about answering my question here:

I all really boils down to one simple question Williamjpellas2:

- Show us the evidence that the Germans had made sufficient amounts of fissile material (U235, U233 or Pu239) for one or more nuclear weapons ?

Please use facts, not fiction, so any mention of "Die Glocke" or "Red Mercury" is not a credible answer.

I think you saw an earlier version of my post, which took a torturously long time to produce. According to my computer screen the photos are now visible so you should be able to see the documents now.

Your question is of course the same one I asked of Gunson, myself. You can view our discussion in the comments section below the article by going here:

http://thevelvetrock...an-atomic-bomb/

As I mentioned earlier, and quite apart from more speculative possibilities like Die Glocke and red mercury, there is no question that the Germans definitely explored several methods for either U-235 separation (Paul Harteck's centrifuge---and that is one item that I can tell you definitely went to Japan, as the Germans gave them the blueprints---and Erich Bagge's isotopenschluse) or manufacture of manmade bomb fuels (Manfred von Ardenne's "plasma-ionic isotope separation installation"---referenced in Oleynikov, Pavel. “ German Scientists in the Soviet Atomic Project”, from The Nonproliferation Review, Volume 7, Number 2, page 130, published in 2000. I tried to email Oleynikov using the address attached to his article but the address is no longer valid. Exactly what he meant by a "plasma-ionic isotope separation installation" is not known to me at this time, but von Ardenne's laboratory included this device and also a cyclotron). The sense I am getting from the reading I have done to this point is that the Germans in fact successfully developed several methods for achieving production of enough fissile material to build a bomb or---if the smaller weapons really were viable during the war years---for at least several of them.

However, and this is crucial to the investigation: it appears to me at this time that what happened was that most or all of these methods were brought to a laboratory or beta-testing scale but then, for whatever reason, halted either temporarily or permanently. One example of this was Project Hexenkessel, which was an R & D effort aimed at producing a non-atomic superexplosive. Hexenkessel was successful and originally planned to field operational weapons---to be mounted on the Schmetterling rocket and used to produce powerful shockwaves strong enough to down Allied bomber formations---in 1943, but the whole thing was simply halted for more than a year. Later on, it was revived and, it appears, augmented by SS scientists until it became an even more powerful bomb. British intelligence reports indicated it had near-atomic force, and mention of this is included in the well-known William Stevenson book A Man Called Intrepid, and also in Henry Steven's Hitler's Suppressed and Still Secret Weapons, Science, and Technology. I don't know exactly why things like this occurred, though as "the good Nazi" Albert Speer told his captors at Nuremberg, Nazi industry was rife with "a multiplicity of parallel projects" and this often by Hitler's design, as further insurance against anyone from any sector of German society getting more powerful than he was willing to accept. Perhaps Hitler's paranoia was deep enough that it even extended to meddling in and thereby sabotaging what might otherwise have been a war-winning industrial development? It's hard to say for sure at this point.

It was pointed out upthread that the BBC article quotes a historian as saying that the Ohrdurf tests did not occur. I definitely do not agree. They absolutely did happen. If you read the excellent Mark Walker - Rainer Karlsch Physics World piece, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb", you will find a great explanation of the heereswaffenamt bomb and its methodology. The Ohrdurf bombs were probably either the Schumann - Trinks device, or something similar to it. As such, they were almost certainly tactical or battlefield nuclear weapons and were much smaller in both size and explosive yield than their Allied cousins. Which, by the way, would be consistent with both a German interest in more efficient detonation methods such as boosted fission for their own sake, and also with a German separation - enrichment infrastructure that had real but limited production output. In other words, it looks to me like they both wanted to and, to some extent, were forced to build smaller bombs because of the self-inflicted limitation of their atomic industrial base. This leaves open the question of how viable the Schumann - Trinks design and, perhaps, the Karl Gottfried Guderley bomb physics calculations really were. Mr. Gunson believes that Guderley's work was for all intents and purposes the basis---if not more than that---for Edward Teller's hydrogen bomb, which appeared in the US in the early 1950s. Teller is known to have credited "earlier German work" as "very useful to me", but it is not clear to me at this time if this was a reference specifically to Guderley and thus to the heereswaffenamt Guderley-Diebner-Gerlach-Richter project, or not. I suspect that it was, but I don't know for sure, and it may be that either Guderley's solution sort-of worked but was not as good as the subsequent Teller solution, or that it definitely worked but the German Army scientists didn't have enough fissile material (or enough that was of good enough quality or purity) or enough time to produce a practical weapon. Realistically, it would have taken dozens of them if not more than that to turn the tide, and it is unlikely that Germany had sufficient means to deliver that many devices on any target by that point in the war even if that many bombs had existed. I am certain, to be clear, that they did not. IF German nuclear weapons were successfully developed during the war, they were few in number. I am thinking, around a dozen or perhaps even fewer than that. Their real value, then, was probably as bargaining chips for Nazis who were attempting to trade advanced technology for their lives.

Edited by williamjpellas2

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williamjpellas2

In post #53 Tazjet posted the images.

Nazi Atomic bomb used in 1943 - Ancient Mysteries & Alternative History - Unexplained Mysteries Discussion Forums

The post was responded to in #55 by Quaentum

http://www.unexplain...45#entry4696212

Now we have williamjpellas2 claiming to have posted the images.

The articles that were referenced by williamjpellas2 simply state that there is no evidence for a bomb, but at least some people were looking into bombs and had collected some raw materials that could possibly have been used to built bombs.

http://news.bbc.co.u...ope/4348497.stm

"Karlsch has done us a service in showing that German research into uranium went further than we'd thought up till now, but there was not a German atom bomb," he added.

John Lansdale Jr., 91, Is Dead; Found German A-Bomb Project

There is no mention of any bomb or plans or anything else in the obituary.

There isn't? Sure there is. From the text of the NY Times article linked immediately above:

Mr. Lansdale, an Army lieutenant colonel who was in charge of intelligence and security for the American project to develop nuclear weapons, had been chosen by the project's director, Gen. Leslie R. Groves, to lead a strike on a factory in Stassfurt in northern Germany, where General Groves suspected the Germans had a cache of bomb materials. On April 17, Colonel Lansdale and his team raided the plant and found about 1,100 tons of ore, some in the form of uranium oxide, a basic material of atomic bombs. In less than a week, the Alsos mission had also captured several prominent German atomic scientists, including Werner Heisenberg and Otto Hahn.

Then there was this:

In 1995, Mr. Lansdale added a surprising twist to the surrender of the Nazi submarine U-234 to American forces in May 1945. Bound for Tokyo, the submarine was carrying 10 containers filled with uranium oxide. For years, historians had wondered what the American military did with it.

In an interview with The New York Times in 1995, Mr. Lansdale said the material, originally intended for Japan's atomic program, instead ended up in the bombs dropped on Hiroshima and Nagasaki.

"It went to the Manhattan District," he said. "It certainly went into the Manhattan District supply of uranium."

I'd say all of that is pretty relevant to this atomic bomb discussion!

I found some commentary by a william pellas about this issue on the wikipedia talk pages. In that write up there is an appeal to make up stuff and imagine an alternate reality more than present evidence.

If I turned up on the wikipedia talk pages, that's interesting, because I have never edited any articles on wikipedia. Curiouser and curiouser!

Edited by williamjpellas2

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Thorvir

I reiterate. This did not happen. It is a fabrication that you've fallen for hook, line and sinker.

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williamjpellas2

This claim is based on an ongoing misinterpretation. In 1942, Heisenberg had a meeting with Erhard Milch, supreme commander of the Luftwaffe, and Albert Speer. In that meeting Heisenberg was asked how big such a bomb would be and he answered: "roughly like a pineapple". As such kind of miniaturization of a nuke in the year of 1942 is more than unlikely it must be assumed that the claim a.) was never made in that wording or, b.) Heisenberg just spoke about the needed amount of fissionable material.

Sorry, but that's incorrect. Or rather, what you say about "miniaturization of a nuke" vis a vis Heisenberg's comments is incorrect. You are referring to a series of two meetings held in 1942 which were viewed as a sort-of "proof of concept" event at which wartime German industry would have to decide whether to more aggressively pursue the production of atomic bombs. Heisenberg's comment about a bomb being "roughly like a pineapple" was in response to a question from one of the attendees as to how large the critical mass of a U-235 weapon would be. This is most definitely NOT any kind of reference to the sort of miniature nuclear weapon I am discussing in this thread. First, because Heisenberg was talking about U-235, which while a perfectly legitimate atomic explosive also has far and away the largest critical mass of the three major bomb fuels known to science at that time and thus would not have been the "bomb fuel" of choice for a smaller weapon.

http://nuclearweaponarchive.org/Library/Fission.html

Second, because the weapon in question originated NOT with Heisenberg (who, I am firmly convinced, is a dead end in terms of WWII German atomic bomb R & D, anyway) but rather with the Kurt Diebner - Walter Gerlach - Ronald Richter - Karl Gottfried Guderley heereswaffenamt project run under the auspices of the German Army and headquartered at or near Gottow, not far from Berlin. Third, because the heereswaffenamt bomb concept called for the use of the manmade isotope U-233, as seen here:

513F20UGo5L._SX349_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

And here:

WarheadSchumannTrinks_zps36712b44.jpg

Edited by williamjpellas2

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williamjpellas2

I reiterate. This did not happen. It is a fabrication that you've fallen for hook, line and sinker.

What, specifically, is "a fabrication" here?

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williamjpellas2

No one's mentioned the Nazi Moon Base yet?

Nor will they, since that sort of Nazi fanboi fantasy is emphatically NOT what is being discussed here, on this site and in this thread. As should be evident from the documentation I have posted and the care I have taken to avoid speculation wherever possible, and when I do speculate, to clearly label it as such. Please try to get that straight. Thanks.

Edited by williamjpellas2

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jaylemurph

William, in light of the fact this is a public /discussion/ forum (and not your personal blog), I'd like to see you respond to noteverything's statements.

--Jaylemurph

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williamjpellas2

William, in light of the fact this is a public /discussion/ forum (and not your personal blog), I'd like to see you respond to noteverything's statements.

--Jaylemurph

Thanks, Jaylemurph, but I already did so. A couple of posts up. It's in Number 214.

Edited by williamjpellas2

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Hanslune

You have no game you are simply repeating what failed before and again you failed to link to where this document is - but we already knew you wouldn't I just asked because I wanted to see you lie about it. So since this document doesn't exist why do you keep pretending it does

You, sir, are a jackass

Yawn for telling the truth? Shocking and that still doesn't prove the document exists....now does it? lol

I have not only posted photos that I took, in person, at the official national archives of the United State of America in College Park, Maryland, but also breadcrumbed them.

So you say.... and that still doesn't prove the document exists....now does it? lol

That is, I also photographed the binder in which the document used by the op to start this thread is located. YOU are the one who is just repeating falsehood. Over and over and over again. It would be child's play for you or anyone reading this to go to the Archives themselves, and see personally whether I am lying or not. But of course you won't do that.

Of course I won't it is YOUR claim and it up to you to prove it - which you have failed to do in the past, the present and I suspect in the future.

Perhaps there are others here who will. In any case I am through with you. Go troll and get your passive-aggressive jollies with someone else.

I hope you career is not in the field of acting because you suck at it. I will continue to point out that you are making stuff up and pretending to have important things to say, but you don't .

The only way for you to prove that this document exists is not for you to SAY it exists but to point to it actually being noted by a government agency or academia - this you cannot do because it is a fake.

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Hanslune

Links doesn't work for me, but since you are back how about answering my question here:

He won't answer he's 'reading from a script" what we say just distracts from his putting forth his fake story. It too bad he going to waste everyone time going over the same failed material.

Edited by Hanslune

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Hanslune

Deleted a bunch of fake stuff

So what do you do when no one believes you and want to see confirmation that you are right?

1. Say you are right over and over again

2. Point to photographs of a fake document

3. Repeat points 1 & 2 again and again while pretending not to understand how to establish that the document is real.....

Still waiting for you to man up and admit you are wrong and offer an apology for wasting peoples time with your fantasy.

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williamjpellas2

Nope, its not that easy as you think it is. The link does not contain any kind of proof for a German WW2 nuke. The linked article is about a book written by Rainer Karlsch who claimed that Nazi Germany had developed an applicable nuke and this claim is still unproven and it will remain unproven in the future. The two test you talked about are also just claims by Rainer Karlsch who claimed that one test had been performed on the isle of Rügen in 1944 and the other one in the state of Thüringen in 1945.

No, they're not "just claims". Luftwaffe pilot Hans Zinsser stated in a sworn affidavit cited in a 1946 secret US Navy report that he witnessed the Rugen Island test in 1944. I have already posted a link about this, but here's some more information in case you'd rather not dig back through multiple posts:

http://www.bibliotec...n/chapter01.htm That's an excerpt from Joseph Farrell's interesting book, Reich of the Black Sun. I don't hold with Farrell on everything he says, particularly some of his more esoteric musings, but I think he does a pretty good job---in between the clearly labeled speculations---of cataloging most of the major pieces of historical evidence that run counter to the more or less "established history of the war". (Farrell calls this "The Allied Legend".) The original Zinsser Affidavit is found to the right of footnote number 25. BTW, Farrell, like some other researchers such as Carter Hydrick (in his book, Critical Mass) points the finger at the Buna Plant near Auschwitz as being a stealth U-235 production facility. I am skeptical of this claim and haven't seen enough evidence to convince me just yet, and I know that the OP for this topic does not agree with Hydrick on some important points, either. But Hydrick's book is extensively cited and researched and I mention it here in case anyone else wants to dig further into this topic because he lists a multitude of formerly classified documents that date from the war years.

http://www.bibliotec...n/chapter04.htm - This is mostly additional background and contextual information. One of the tidbits has to do with a persistent story about an alleged third American a-bomb that was dropped on Japan and failed to explode---eventually ending up in Russian hands. I don't know if I buy that one, either, but it's worth some investigation and Farrell has apparently identified the original source for that oft-repeated-in-conspiracy-circles story. I believe he is mistaken about the sinking of the USS Indianapolis, which if memory serves was on its way back from Tinian when torpedoed by a Japanese submarine. He appears to state it was returning to Tinian a second time and I am 99% sure that was not the case. No time to double check just now.

At least one of these sites, I dont know which one yet, had been probed by the Max Planck Instutite and no fingerprints of a German nuke had been found.

It was the 1945 site in or near Ohrdurf. The text of the report concludes by saying that "The PTB-testing of the present soil samples are now completed: a total showed no indication of the radionuclide from a nuclear explosion in the Thuringian Ohrdruf. The soil samples show only contamination that due to, among other things, the reactor accident at Chernobyl. A scientific rebuttal to the alleged nuclear test at the end of the Second World War but can not with this or any other sample analysis are provided. A final assessment of the historical context is thus still open."

That's of course in broken English, from a Google translator program taking the text from German to English. The complete report follows:

TEXT of the PTB report:

Feb 15, 2006

The Thuringian Ohrdruf is under observation, since the historian Rainer Karlsch with his book "Hitler's bomb" to a possible nuclear explosion in Hitler's Germany in 1945, fuelled speculation. Soil samples from the local area - now a military training of the armed forces - has been explored in recent months by the Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt (PTB) on behalf of the Second German Television (ZDF). The results of the radionuclide are now available. The readings give no indication that sources other than the fallout of above-ground atomic bomb tests in the 1950er/1960er years and the reactor accident at Chernobyl in 1986 are responsible for soil contamination. Overall, the PTB measurement results for a nuclear explosion, "no findings".

The theses of the historian Karlsch did last year, the ZDF de-constitution. Soil samples from the Ohrdruf military training has been sent to the PTB, therefore, to have this examined for contamination with radio-nuclides. For a nuclear explosion has taken place whenever they could, even today, have given the long half-lives of certain radio-nuclides still detected. A total of eight soil samples were investigated in the laboratories of the PTB according to the rules of mensuration.

As artificially produced radionuclide was detected in the samples, only Cs-137. The found for this nuclide activities for which responsible, especially in the Chernobyl reactor accident, is lying under the ground to be found everywhere in Germany contamination. Just Chernobyl and in Germany has led to a large local variability of soil contamination with the radionuclide Cs-137. The load values vary greatly within Germany, depending on how much Cs-137 was washed out by rain from the contaminated Chernobyl "cloud.

According to this analysis were gamma in the second step specifically examines the activities of the uranium samples radio-chemically. Background: An exploding nuclear weapon, is required for the highly enriched uranium would have, in the vicinity of the natural ratio of the uranium isotope U-235 and move U-238. (The natural activity ratio means that for every 1,000 decays of U-238 about 46 decays of U-235. Be after the explosion of a nuclear weapon cost more decays of U-235 to find.) For each sample were therefore three parallel analysis of subsets carried out of a few grams. The activities of uranium isotopes were determined by measuring the alpha radiation of the sample preparations. The activity ratios of the uranium isotope U-235 and U-238 can safely evaluate the measurement times for each sample were extended to several months. Also in the measurements showed no evidence of a nuclear explosion: The measured activity ratios of both uranium isotopes agree within the measurement uncertainty with the natural activity ratio.

The PTB-testing of the present soil samples are now completed: a total showed no indication of the radionuclide from a nuclear explosion in the Thuringian Ohrdruf. The soil samples show only contamination that due to, among other things, the reactor accident at Chernobyl. A scientific rebuttal to the alleged nuclear test at the end of the Second World War but can not with this or any other sample analysis are provided. A final assessment of the historical context is thus still open.

Dr. Herbert Janssen

Physikalisch-Technische Bundesanstalt

Department of "radioactivity"

Tel.: +49(0)531 592 6100

herbert.janssen (@) ptb.de

Note that Mr. Janssen states that Cesium-137---a daughter product of uranium fission---was in fact found in the soil at Ohrdurf, but he immediately blames it on the Chernobyl accident. To be sure, Chernobyl spewed out great quantities of radiation all over Europe, and Cesium-137 was indeed a product of runaway nuclear fission in the melting Russian reactor, but how does he know that the Cesium he found in the soil at Ohrdurf came from Chernobyl and wasn't still in the ground from WWII German nuclear weapons testing? Obviously it's possible that what he found was from Chernobyl, but again, how does he know that?

It is ok in general to talk about the option of German nuke developements during WW2 but all facts are on hands and all these facts just lead to the conclusion that Germany had no nukes that time, by logic. And its illogical to think that a handfull of scientists around Heisenberg, working with limited equipment and a small amount of money and based in a rotten castle somewher in Germany, were able to reach the same results and bring a nuke device into an operative status, as the US did. Just to compare, the Manhattan Project involved 125.000 ppl and an invest of (todays value equivalent) 20 billion dollars.

You're right to state that "...it's illogical to think that a handfull of scientists around Heisenberg...were able to reach the same results and bring a nuke device to operative status". That's because they didn't. If anyone did it in Germany during WWII, it wasn't Heisenberg or his uranverein at the Kaiser Wilhelm Institute. It was Kurt Diebner, Walther Gerlach, Karl Gottfried Guderley, Ronald Richter, Walter Trinks, Erich von Schumann, and others in the heereswaffenamt German Army Advanced Weapons Bureau. The project appears to have been headquartered at or near Gottow, itself not far from Berlin.

Also, you make the usual and unfortunate direct comparison to the Manhattan Project. That effort utilized a "throw it all against the wall and see what works" approach, and it was also literally two separate projects joined at the hip (the U-235 works at Oak Ridge, TN and the Hanford P-239 plants in Washington state were really two nearly totally self-contained efforts and each produced a working bomb in the end). Further, German nuclear physics, particularly in terms of advanced theory, was far and away the best in the world of that era, and the Oppenheimer methodology utilized by the Manhattan Project was NOT the only or most efficient method of achieving a nuclear detonation even in WWII (though it certainly worked!). Enrico Fermi in fact proposed a form of boosted fission during discussions with Oppenheimer in the early days of the Project. It was decided to proceed with the much simpler gun-type non-boosted fission design for both the U-235 AND the P-239 bomb until it was discovered that reactor-bred P-239 contains a great deal of impurity in the form of P-240---a contaminant isotope that causes premature, partial detonations in a gun-type plutonium bomb. THAT is why the Manhattan Project switched to implosion as the method of detonation for its Fat Man bomb. The original design was called "Thin Man".

https://www.osti.gov...n_necessity.htm

By the way, that article mentions John von Neumann, a Hungarian emigree and Princeton mathematician, as being the scientist who put Oppenheimer and the Manhattan Project on the path to a plutonium implosion weapon. The MAGIC intercept being discussed in this thread mentions the "Neumann disintegrator" and says it is the basis for the German weapons. I wonder if this is the same guy?

In addition, if there was a German nuke, where are and/or where were the contemporary witnesses? I mean real witnesses and not some weirdos. For what reasons do you think that German nukes, so the perfect Wunderwaffe, had not been mentioned even in the diaries of Joseph Goebbels? And not in any documentation of the nazi administration? And for what reason do you think, if nazi nukes existed, the existence of it decades ago had been kept classified until today even if nukes are public know latest since August 6, 1945?

Perfectly legitimate questions, all of them. There were contemporary witnesses, one of whom, Clare Werner, died just a few years ago. Her testimony used to be available on a video posted on youtube, but I just took a look for it and couldn't find it. If Simon Gunson ever returns to this thread, I know he knows the title of that piece. There was also a local man named Heinz Wachsmut, who unlike Werner did not claim to see the initial blast, but like Werner, stated that he and other local residents suffered from headches and nosebleeds for days or weeks after the blasts. Wachsmut also claimed he was forced by the SS to burn hundreds of horribly burned bodies of POW's killed in the test explosions. Karlsch unearthed a third witness who was interrogated by the East German Stasi secret police in the 1960s. The reputable newspaper reporter Luigi Romersma claimed, like the pilot Hans Zinsser, to be an eyewitness of the 1944 Rugen Island detonation:

http://www.theguardi.../30/books.italy

As for Goebbels, while he was high up in Hitler's counsel, Hitler himself, at least arguably, wasn't really running Germany by late 1944, following the nearly successful Rommell - von Stauffenberg assassination plot. The SS was running Germany and was merely one of a number of "state within a state" fiefdoms in the Nazi hierarchy, albeit far and away the most powerful. How much did Goebbels know about the inner workings of the SS, particularly the black ops - secret weapons empire of General Ing Hans Kammler? Very little, I'd be willing to bet.

Documentation of this end of war project is limited but not nonexistent. The estate of Dr. von Schumann had some documents, including the Schumann - Trinks schematic, which now resides in the bundesarchiv. Diebner wanted to write a book about this project but was forbidden to do so by the postwar British occupation authorities. There is also this from Wikipedia:

According to Rainer Karlsch's Hitler's Bomb, during World War II German scientists under Walter Gerlach and Kurt Diebner carried out experiments to explore the possibility of inducing thermonuclear reactions in deuterium using high explosive-driven convergent shock waves, following Karl Gottfried Guderley's convergent shock wave solution. At the same time (Ronald) Richter proposed in a memorandum to German government officials the induction of nuclear fusion through shock waves by high-velocity particles shot into a highly compressed deuterium plasmacontained in an ordinary uranium vessel. The proposal was not carried through.[2]

https://en.wikipedia.../Huemul_Project

There's more but it's late and I have to get to bed soon.

All advanced nazi weapon technology found its way into the public knowledge. The V1 (cruise missile), the V2 (ICBM),jet fighter aircraft (ME262) and stealth aircraft (Horton Ho229) as well. But why dont the bomb? I tell you: because there was no bomb, simply just that.

The underlined part is definitely not true, but okay, why is Walther Gerlach's diary still classified going on a hundred years later, along with nearly all documentation related to the capture of Ohrdurf and surrounding installations by the US Army in 1945? What are they hiding? I have one more document that is probably the strongest proof for the 1944 test but I can't go into that now because I am shopping an article for publication.

You just feed a CT and historical data and todays knowledge does not match yr CTs claims in any kind.

CT? I don't know what you mean by this term. Could you please elaborate? Again, I'm at the end of my day and quite tired so this may be very obvious and if so, I apologize. For now, here are some additional articles for general reading on the subject. They come from various editorial points of view and all have their own strengths and weaknesses. The final link goes to an enormously detailed discussion featuring numerous posts and piles of information from the same OP on the Axis History Forum. Not for the impatient or for the faint of heart! :tu:

http://www.dw.com/en...-bomb/a-1518173

http://www.unmuseum.org/nbomb.htm

http://forum.axishis...6&start=435

Edited by williamjpellas2

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