Nazi Atomic bomb used in 1943

[Hanslune]

PS: Maybe mentioning perpetual motion machines was a mistake. For all I know willianjpellas2 may actually believe they are possible.

Considering the quality of demonstrated knowledge of science he just might.

[stereologist]

Right, and of course it must be the case that the Germans had hundreds of tons of uranium in some form (presumably uranium oxide, though this is not certain) because they just had a thing for making enormous quantities of colored glass. Uranium can also be used in certain types of pottery, so I guess that's why there were at least two and probably more than two U-boat and I-boat missions that were shipping uranium from Germany to Japan. You know, to make pottery. And origami, too, no doubt. The Germans also had a great deal of thorium. You know, for toothpaste.

Again you play the part of the horse's ass. I simply point more and more uses for uranium and you pretend that there is only 1.

The main point is that you have completely failed to show that the uranium was used for any purpose at all. Your illogical musings do not answer the question about the use of the material.

You have failed for many pages now to post anything at all showing how the uranium was used. That makes it more and more clear that you have no idea. Well, then admit that fact.

[stereologist]

I made it all up. I see. It's quite astonishing to see the vitriol with which people respond simply when someone questions the established history of a particular event. I haven't studied the concept of half life since I was in high school physics class---30 years ago---but in no way do I claim to be a physicist, anyway. The concept obviously comes into play in terms of soil sample investigation at Ohrdurf and Rugen Island, but I am a historical researcher, investigator, and writer. I never claimed to be a scientist. Again, though: what does any of this have to do with the DOCUMENTATION I have posted here, in this thread? Answer: nothing. Not unless you want to argue that the German soil testing "proves" nothing happened at Ohrdurf and/or at Rugen Island, and even the conclusion of the report itself---the text of which, once again, I have posted here in its entirety---DOES NOT SAY THAT. But, don't let that stop you.

<snipped>

You are questioning the history, but have nothing but unsubstantiated innuendos and glaring mistakes to support an alternate history.

Your lack of understanding of physics is one of the reasons your statements are being pointed out as wrong. Another reason is that you have made up stories based on no evidence. Another reason is that your statements are more often than not simply illogical.

You claim to have posted documentation. You posted 2 articles which did not support your arguments. In fact, you pointed out how pathetic one of the articles was. Neither article made mention of a bomb, bomb making, bomb supplies, bomb plans, exploded bombs or anything of interest.

I did not address a report which more than likely was looking at evidence of CHernobyl. I posted substantial evidence that Germany received a large detectable amount of the material in question from Chernobyl. I also pointed out that it was possible to differentiate Chernobyl material from a bomb.

So don't let the clear evidence which shows the foolishness of your fiction get in the way of your delusional statements.

Here is the kettle calling the pot black. You wrote "most replies here have resorted to snark, ad hominem attacks, insults, and insinuations." Your replies have been nothing but childish gibberish about anything other than the fact that you have nothing to support your fiction. Stop your childish responses, which you did in almost every reply to me. Stop whining about being a victim and post some evidence.

Please post some evidence that supports your claim of Nazi bomb making.

[Hanslune]

You are questioning the history, but have nothing but unsubstantiated innuendos and glaring mistakes to support an alternate history.

Your lack of understanding of physics is one of the reasons your statements are being pointed out as wrong. Another reason is that you have made up stories based on no evidence. Another reason is that your statements are more often than not simply illogical.

You claim to have posted documentation. You posted 2 articles which did not support your arguments. In fact, you pointed out how pathetic one of the articles was. Neither article made mention of a bomb, bomb making, bomb supplies, bomb plans, exploded bombs or anything of interest.

I did not address a report which more than likely was looking at evidence of CHernobyl. I posted substantial evidence that Germany received a large detectable amount of the material in question from Chernobyl. I also pointed out that it was possible to differentiate Chernobyl material from a bomb.

So don't let the clear evidence which shows the foolishness of your fiction get in the way of your delusional statements.

Here is the kettle calling the pot black. You wrote "most replies here have resorted to snark, ad hominem attacks, insults, and insinuations." Your replies have been nothing but childish gibberish about anything other than the fact that you have nothing to support your fiction. Stop your childish responses, which you did in almost every reply to me. Stop whining about being a victim and post some evidence.

Please post some evidence that supports your claim of Nazi bomb making.

Well one of his last claims was that he was leaving but as he's made endless false claims before - that must mean he'll be back in a few days.....lol

[Quaentum]

Thanks, but I did see that, and merely repeating, as you do in that post, that the MAGIC intercept "must be a fake" is not dealing honestly with this topic. I have posted or referenced the following:

1) the actual MAGIC intercept that the OP used to start this thread---by which I mean, I photographed the original in the US National Archives and then posted the photos after seeing and handling the document myself, in person, in 2012.

2) The BBC News story covering the two alleged tests of some sort of German nuclear device near Ohrdurf in 1945.

3) The Italian reporter Luigi Romersma's numerous news articles in which he consistently claimed to have witnessed some kind of German bomb detonation on the coast of the Baltic Sea in 1944. Romersma also wrote of this in greater detail in his book "Le armi segrete di Hitler".

https://en.wikipedia...i/Luigi_Romersa

http://www.theguardi.../30/books.italy

4) The Zinsser Affidavit.

5) A 25 January 1946 COMNAVEU (Command (US) Navy in Europe) intelligence report by Captain R.F. Hickey, USN, entitled “Investigations, Research, Developments and Practical Use of the German Atomic Bomb.” COMNAVEU London dated Top Secret Naval Attache Reports 1944­ - 1947, located at NARA/RG 38, Box 9­13 Entry 98c. In other words, in the same building where I found the MAGIC intercept at the start of this thread.

6) Numerous references to Rainer Karlsch's book "Hitler's Bomb" and the fact that his research shows quite clearly that it was NOT Werner Heisenberg or his uranverein that got the furthest in German WWII nuclear weapon R & D. Rather, it was the heereswaffenamt---the German Army's advanced weapons bureau---that apparently completed and tested at least two devices of some kind. The lead scientists in this initiative were Kurt Diebner, Walter Gerlach, Erich von Schumann, Walter Trinks, Karl Gottfried Guderley (the mathematician whose work on shock waves as a fusion detonator was apparently the foundation for the heereswaffenamt devices), and perhaps Ronald Richter, though his postwar misadventures in Argentina make me wonder how much he really knew and contributed to the wartime project.

7) Mark Walker and Rainer Karlsch's article, "New Light on Hitler's Bomb", a sort-of Cliff's Notes summary of Karlsch's book. Note that Walker is generally acknowledged as one of the world's leading mainstream historians of the German atomic projects, and that he is quoted in the Guardian article about Luigi Romersma that I posted above. http://physicsworld....on-hitlers-bomb

Now, none of this "proves" that Nazi Germany actually possessed some kind of working nuclear weapons capability during WWII, but my point is that I have numerous references and many of them are original documents, most of which were classified until 1978 or later. Where is YOUR documentation that buttresses YOUR assertion that the MAGIC intercept "must be a fake"?

Why I label the document fake:

The original 3 of my argument are

1 - It was sent to a person that didn't exist

2 - It detailed an attack on a Russian regiment that was nowhere near the area of the supposed attack at the time in question

3 - It referenced a plant that had been put out of commission.

To that lets add the following:

4 - The delivery would have required a closeness to the blast that the attackers would have all been killed or seriously injured. If the former (killed) there would have been no one left to report back. If the latter, there would have been reports of heat damage and radiation of the survivors but nothing like that exists

5 - Additional supportive documents supposedly reside at NARA/RG 38, Box 9­13, yet a look at the box list for that RG shows no box 913.

http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/finding-aid/military/rg-38.html

My question to you is how many errors must there be in a document to see it is not a valid document?

[questionmark]

My question to you is how many errors must there be in a document to see it is not a valid document?

Infinite as brain maxturbation is more relevant to the fringe than facts.

[Hanslune]

Why I label the document fake:

The original 3 of my argument are

1 - It was sent to a person that didn't exist

2 - It detailed an attack on a Russian regiment that was nowhere near the area of the supposed attack at the time in question

3 - It referenced a plant that had been put out of commission.

To that lets add the following:

4 - The delivery would have required a closeness to the blast that the attackers would have all been killed or seriously injured. If the former (killed) there would have been no one left to report back. If the latter, there would have been reports of heat damage and radiation of the survivors but nothing like that exists

5 - Additional supportive documents supposedly reside at NARA/RG 38, Box 9­13, yet a look at the box list for that RG shows no box 913.

http://www.archives....tary/rg-38.html

My question to you is how many errors must there be in a document to see it is not a valid document?

If I may add:

There is no copy of it in the Japanese archives as received or sent, nor the British or Russian as being intercepted. It is interesting that the guy who claims it is real never seems to have looked for it in those places either - maybe because he knew it wouldn't be there. One other place it would be, in the German's own files.

The wording of the message is odd and unlike a document translated from Japanese to English.

[Hanslune]

Infinite as brain maxturbation is more relevant to the fringe than facts.

Yeah certain subjects are gone over and over again endlessly. On a certain website they go over the evidence for G1 being a tomb on a weekly basis - each time declaring it is not - then a week or so later starting up the same argument again.

[Jarocal]

Yeah certain subjects are gone over and over again endlessly. On a certain website they go over the evidence for G1 being a tomb on a weekly basis - each time declaring it is not - then a week or so later starting up the same argument again.

Psfft, the whole tomb theory has been debunked just as thoroughly as the use of ramps. Out of the box solutions should be discussed often to ascertain the original intended use for the structure before Vyse forged Khufu's glyph Khufu repurposed it into a monument to himself.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Why I label the document fake:

The original 3 of my argument are

1 - It was sent to a person that didn't exist

2 - It detailed an attack on a Russian regiment that was nowhere near the area of the supposed attack at the time in question

3 - It referenced a plant that had been put out of commission.

To that lets add the following:

4 - The delivery would have required a closeness to the blast that the attackers would have all been killed or seriously injured. If the former (killed) there would have been no one left to report back. If the latter, there would have been reports of heat damage and radiation of the survivors but nothing like that exists

5 - Additional supportive documents supposedly reside at NARA/RG 38, Box 9­13, yet a look at the box list for that RG shows no box 913.

http://www.archives.gov/research/holocaust/finding-aid/military/rg-38.html

My question to you is how many errors must there be in a document to see it is not a valid document?

You know if you keep that up, he'll just go away and come back in a few months with a different name.

[Hanslune]

You know if you keep that up, he'll just go away and come back in a few months with a different name.

I suspect that is his MO. I guess he's trying to get people believe in his idea.

[stereologist]

I did a little poking around on this subject and found out that there is an indication that the ore that was located by US forces at the end of the war was close to the amount originally taken from mines taken over by German forces.

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

I did a little poking around on this subject and found out that there is an indication that the ore that was located by US forces at the end of the war was close to the amount originally taken from mines taken over by German forces.

The main suppliers of uranium before the war was Czechoslovakia^* and Belgian Congo^*. The Czech ore was seized by the Germans and most of it was later recovered by the US, both to use in their own nuclear programme and to prevent the Soviets from getting it. A Belgian company had a large stockpile of uranium before the war, which just happend to be in a warehouse in the US, and that became very important for the US nuclear programme. The UK also had a stockpile that they had shipped out of Belgium before the German invasion. It is not well known that the UK was actually the first country to have a nuclear weapons programme (Codename Tube Alloys), but because of insufficient resources their work was handed over to the US and became part of the Manhattan Project.

The Czech uranium mine later became very important for the Soviet nuclear programme, until domestic sources of uranium was found.

*) If we follow willamjpellas's logic this proves that Belgium and Czechoslovakia had nuclear weapons programmes. I mean why else would they have Uranium ?

[Hanslune]

I mean why else would they have Uranium ?

To make a pudding?

[+Noteverythingisaconspiracy]

To make a pudding?

You are sure to gain weight very quickly if you eat a uranium pudding.

[Hanslune]

You are sure to gain weight very quickly if you eat a uranium pudding.

Et øjeblik! Hey, I didn't say it would be a GOOD pudding now did I?

[gadfly21]

And by the way, no, I am not Rainer Karlsch. It's clear to me from most of the responses here that there is no intent whatsoever on the part of most of the regulars in this thread to simply consider honestly what is a legitimate second world war MAGIC top secret intelligence intercept...

...Mark Walker is generally considered to be one of the world's leading mainstream authorities on the WWII Nazi atomic projects---and yet he chose to work with (gasp-shriek-horrors) the aforementioned Rainer Karlsch, to the point of writing an article with him. What could a guy like Walker---who is also cited in the Guardian piece I posted about the Italian journalist Luigi Romersma, likewise and obviously not read by the hoi polloi around here---possibly want with Karlsch? I thought Karlsch was a kook fringe lunatic and not to be taken seriously? Whatever. Maybe some of you will actually do some reading and some homework, but I doubt it.

Have a nice life, gents. Adios.

http://physicsworld....on-hitlers-bomb

New light on Hitler's bomb

Hi williamjpellas! I think you made an interesting arguements/points on what the Nazi scientists supposedly did during the war. There is the war fog and curiousity over what some of the Axis projects or equipment was seized. So many many things are classified, still, after 70 years, as secret or top secret. I've often thought they're politically damaging for some country or other or else there's a tiny bit of merit to it being of some kind of dangerous tech or weapon design. Some records from World War I are still classified, I believe, and that's a hundred friggin years ago!

I don't know if the Nazis had as advanced a program as your claiming. Even if they had tons of UO2, it takes thousands of centrifuges to get the isotopes seperated. I don't think it's as easy to do with an accelerator as you seem to think. Even though U233 is way hotter and lower mass for supercriticality than U235, it's way harder to make with Thorium (with acclerators) and you end up with highly radioactive (but not fissile) U232 or U234. U232, Pa, and U234 poisons the fissile materials, and makes it very difficult to seperate the U233 out. It becomes like nasty pitchblend. Very very difficult if not impossible. They breed it in breeder reactors. Normal reactors or reactors with liquid metal. I believe the story of the "Radioactive Boyscout" kid in Michigan (David Hahn?) (no relation to Otto? ) ended with something like that when he exposed some of his ground up thorium lamp wicks with his radium neutron source. He ended up with pitchblend and needed professionals to help clean it up.

Not saying the Nazis didn't have some amount of some Uranium materials, but I am skeptical they had enough for bombs even with fission booster material.

Then again, if there were some kind of (ballotechnic?) explosive to super shockwave compress a fissile substance or even do a pure fusion bomb, then all bets are off. It's very tantalizing in a speculative fiction or alternative history scenario.

Btw, I'd never heard of a ballotechnic material before. Never heard of that term. It's neat, I learn something new everyday. Thank you for that.

Edited March 22, 2016 by gadfly21

[Hanslune]

Hi williamjpellas! I think you made an interesting arguements/points on what the Nazi scientists supposedly did during the war. There is the war fog and curiousity over what some of the Axis projects or equipment was seized. So many many things are classified, still, after 70 years, as secret or top secret. I've often thought they're politically damaging for some country or other or else there's a tiny bit of merit to it being of some kind of dangerous tech or weapon design. Some records from World War I are still classified, I believe, and that's a hundred friggin years ago!

I don't know if the Nazis had as advanced a program as your claiming. Even if they had tons of UO2, it takes thousands of centrifuges to get the isotopes seperated. I don't think it's as easy to do with an accelerator as you seem to think. Even though U233 is way hotter and lower mass for supercriticality than U235, it's way harder to make with Thorium (with acclerators) and you end up with highly radioactive (but not fissile) U232 or U234. U232, Pa, and U234 poisons the fissile materials, and makes it very difficult to seperate the U233 out. It becomes like nasty pitchblend. Very very difficult if not impossible. They breed it in breeder reactors. Normal reactors or reactors with liquid metal. I believe the story of the "Radioactive Boyscout" kid in Michigan (David Hahn?) (no relation to Otto? ) ended with something like that when he exposed some of his ground up thorium lamp wicks with his radium neutron source. He ended up with pitchblend and needed professionals to help clean it up.

Not saying the Nazis didn't have some amount of some Uranium materials, but I am skeptical they had enough for bombs even with fission booster material.

Then again, if there were some kind of (ballotechnic?) explosive to super shockwave compress a fissile substance or even do a pure fusion bomb, then all bets are off. It's very tantalizing in a speculative fiction or alternative history scenario.

Btw, I'd never heard of a ballotechnic material before. Never heard of that term. It's neat, I learn something new everyday. Thank you for that.

Agreed the idea just doesn't work out in the details - what it might be good for is a long series of novels about a World were Germany, Italy and their lackey's - due to the political weakness of the Soviet Union and England - are able to dominate Europe when the US doesn't come into the war and after 11 years peace is declared and they use the processes above to create nuclear weapons - or something like that. It works for a novel plot but not for reality.

[Skithia]

Agreed the idea just doesn't work out in the details - what it might be good for is a long series of novels about a World were Germany, Italy and their lackey's - due to the political weakness of the Soviet Union and England - are able to dominate Europe when the US doesn't come into the war and after 11 years peace is declared and they use the processes above to create nuclear weapons - or something like that. It works for a novel plot but not for reality.

Think Philip K Dick did that one already only they develop the bomb first and force the US to capitulate

[Hanslune]

Think Philip K Dick did that one already only they develop the bomb first and force the US to capitulate

Well double dang another fine idea ruined by the zeal of another.....

[Hanslune]

Think Philip K Dick did that one already only they develop the bomb first and force the US to capitulate

.? Do you know what that title was ?

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

.? Do you know what that title was ?

The Man in the High Castle?

[Hanslune]

The Man in the High Castle?

Ty, yes that was it

[gadfly21]

Think Philip K Dick did that one already only they develop the bomb first and force the US to capitulate

Haha, yeah I was thinking about watching that series recently. The book looks like a downer though...sooo. In the book the Nazis have developed fusion weapons and are planning to use them on Japan. I don't know if williampellas was drawing on that for this thread or not. It just seems to me that if the Nazis did have some type of nuclear weapon, of any sort, they would've used it in the Battle of the Bulge. Seems like Hitler had determined to throw everything he had left at the western allies in that battle. If they had nukes I think they'd of used them there. Just my opinion, though. Cheers.

[Hanslune]

Haha, yeah I was thinking about watching that series recently. The book looks like a downer though...sooo. In the book the Nazis have developed fusion weapons and are planning to use them on Japan. I don't know if williampellas was drawing on that for this thread or not. It just seems to me that if the Nazis did have some type of nuclear weapon, of any sort, they would've used it in the Battle of the Bulge. Seems like Hitler had determined to throw everything he had left at the western allies in that battle. If they had nukes I think they'd of used them there. Just my opinion, though. Cheers.

Yep and they would have been trying to mass produce them and Speer or his associates would have known about them.