Two Israeli troops guilty of using human

[ExpandMyMind]

An Israeli military court has convicted two Israeli soldiers for using a Palestinian child as a human shield during an offensive in Gaza in 2009.

The soldiers were found guilty of reckless endangerment and conduct unbecoming for forcing the nine-year-old boy to check suspected booby-traps.

It is reportedly the first such conviction in Israel - where the use of civilians as human shields is banned.

The sentencing will be decided at a later date, the court said.

Read more...

Hats off to the Israeli military, first, for finally investigating actions of this nature

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/201009_Void_of_Responsibility.asp

And second, for actually convicting the soldiers. Though I'm not sure what sort of sentence they will get or why their names have not been released.

Still, it seems the Goldstone Report and human rights organisations have a big part to play in this conviction.

[Knight Of Shadows]

i think their names were not released for the fear of their lives

however this is good to see " some " crime didn't go unpunished

but i doubt the punishment will be serious

thanks for tuning man

[Erikl]

Actually, this is pretty normal in Israel. When someone's commit a crime, they are punished. What these two soldiers did is disgusting. I saw the story last night on the news. Good thing they'll get what they deserved.

[ExpandMyMind]

Actually, this is pretty normal in Israel. When someone's commit a crime, they are punished.

(long drawn out) sigh.

Again you show that you are not even willing to look at evidence I provide in a thread, before going on to give out your opinion. How sad that I have to post this link again.

Void of Responsibility: Israel Military Policy not to investigate Killings of Palestinians by Soldiers

http://www.btselem.org/English/Publications/Summaries/201009_Void_of_Responsibility.asp

This is why I said 'hats off to the military'.

Edited October 4, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

Again you show that you are not even willing to look at evidence I provide in a thread, before going on to give out your opinion. How sad that I have to post this link again.

You're funny, kid. I was in the military until a month ago. As an officer. I participated both in the Second Lebanese War, and Operation Cast Lead. I am well aware of how the military treats war criminals, if they're found. You don't have to provide me evidence, as most of your evidence is simply pure propaganda. From someone who was on the otherside untill fairly recently, it's funny to see how your crazy mind reacts to the whole situation. It's as if in any story you'll find a way to present Israel in an aweful, hatred way. Keep on going. Then don't complain when not taken seriously.

[ExpandMyMind]

You're funny, kid. I was in the military until a month ago. As an officer. I participated both in the Second Lebanese War, and Operation Cast Lead. I am well aware of how the military treats war criminals, if they're found. You don't have to provide me evidence, as most of your evidence is simply pure propaganda. From someone who was on the otherside untill fairly recently, it's funny to see how your crazy mind reacts to the whole situation. It's as if in any story you'll find a way to present Israel in an aweful, hatred way. Keep on going. Then don't complain when not taken seriously.

I'm glad you're posting a lot at the moment. Because now everyone can see the tactics you have to employ to defend Israel. Simply labeling something propaganda is truly weak. Seriously, read the first 5 pages of the report and you'll see very quickly that the B'Tselem paper is not propaganda.

Oh how great it must be to be you in these debates - able to just wish away any and all evidence with the wave of a hand, instead of actually addressing the content of ..well, anything that doesn't conform with your preexisting mindset.

[Erikl]

Ex, the only reason I reply to you in this manner is to give you some of your own medicine, so you'll grow up and start respecting others who disagree with you. I tried to be polite at the very beginning, but you just result to personal slurring and very low level of writing. I used to debate alot with a Scottish guy few years ago here when I just got into UM. He and his sister were my arch-nemesis because they too were very pro-Palestine, but he had manners. We actually turned out to be good friends, out of sheer respect to each other. I learnt alot from him, and he from me. Too bad you're not as mature. I actually love your state (Scotland), and as a red-headed whisky-lover, I love both Ireland and Scotland. When you'll grow up and quit your childish ways, I hope we can get somewhere here.

[ExpandMyMind]

Mate, I don't think you learned much from your Scottish friend. I'm guessing he didn't know all that much to begin with and you have just blinded him with Joan Peters and your usual conspiracy theories. I, unfortunately for you, have read the relevant material that lays waste to your right wing conspiracy theories (that are laughed at even in the respected learning centres of Israel).

Like I said - you won't have learned much, simply because you don't read anything presented, as anyone here can see. You stick to the "I'm right, 'cause I've already made up my mind" and discard anything at all that doesn't suit your weird theories.

You don't employ any form of legitimate debate. To be honest it's like debating with the 'remote control planes' truthers.

I'll bet you still haven't read that B'Tselem report that you wished away as simple propaganda, have you?

Case and point.

Edited October 5, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

Mate, I don't think you learned much from your Scottish friend. I'm guessing he didn't know all that much to begin with and you have just blinded him with Joan Peters and your usual conspiracy theories. I, unfortunately for you, have read the relevant material that lays waste to your right wing conspiracy theories (that are laughed at even in the respected learning centres of Israel).

Like I said - you won't have learned much, simply because you don't read anything presented, as anyone here can see. You stick to the "I'm right, 'cause I've already made up my mind" and discard anything at all that doesn't suit your weird theories.

You don't employ any form of legitimate debate. To be honest it's like debating with the 'remote control planes' truthers.

I'll bet you still haven't read that B'Tselem report that you wished away as simple propaganda, have you?

Case and point.

Ex, I have to ask - what his your academic education? did you ever write an academic article yourself? the Scottish guy I debated with was doing his MA in political science. He was highly educated, and although we never actually agreed - he continue to be pro-Palestinian and I continued to hold my own opinions, we never the less learned from eachother. You fail to understand that the things you put out here, are recycled opinions using newer sources to opinions I've already heared. You have no idea what my political affiliation is. I can be a left winger and still disagree with your opinions, because you ignore basic historical facts of the conflict or of the reality in the region.

As for B'Tselem - although they are a very important organization, that should exist in any democracy (how come the Palestinians don't have organizations like these, I wonder), they have a very known political agenda. They have been accused and proved to round up numbers in favour of the Palestinian side. For example, they once blamed the IAF (Israeli Air Force) of killing 14 civilians. Then, six years later, admitted they were wrong, yet didn't make a big deal out of hit or even issued a new, fixed report. They didn't even appologize to the IAF for wrongly accusing them.

Anyhow, your form of debate is provocation, then more provocation, then scape goating Israel for everything that happens in the region. It is very obvious what your political agendas are, and you only spit information - never accept any. When you'll present new information or a way of debating that is not putting Israel in a situation where it is judged on different moral standards than say, the UK - then we can talk. Because the only solution to your ideological line of thinking, is that Israel should cease to exist. And you are dodging an honest addmition of this truth, by white washing your own and others' words.

[ExpandMyMind]

None of that really meant anything. You still try to dismiss items without reading them, have a go at me because I don't have a formally educated background, and basically wave away any criticism I or anyone else has, out of hand.

Your position on these matters is so very weak, that this is all you can hit back with.

Carry on.

Edit to add - explain to me why the particular B'Tselem article is incorrect... it bases it's material on Israeli military policy, quoting the actual changes in law and other relevant material.

Yet, you have, again, waved away the criticism as nothing more than propaganda.

Edited October 5, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

None of that really meant anything. You still try to dismiss items without reading them, have a go at me because I don't have a formally educated background, and basically wave away any criticism I or anyone else has, out of hand.

Your position on these matters is so very weak, that this is all you can hit back with.

Carry on.

Edit to add - explain to me why the particular B'Tselem article is incorrect... it bases it's material on Israeli military policy, quoting the actual changes in law and other relevant material.

Yet, you have, again, waved away the criticism as nothing more than propaganda.

Hmm, now don't become to sensitive, mate. I immidietly recognized that your weak on education when it comes to the history of the conflict. To be honest, until this week, I continueously urged you to read and research on the subject. When you base your ideas solely on the mass media, which in the UK is pretty pro-Palestinian anyhow I'm afraid (there were huge threads regarding this very issue two years ago on this very board), then try to strengh your ideas using pro-Palestinian terms (you quote Orwell at your signiture... you know how important a language is in politics) such as "Zionist colonialism" in google, then post your findings here. I know, because I've tackled and dealt with people like you before. Some of them simply didn't care as much as you, they were only interested in spreading hatred against Israel. I still believe that's not your case, and that you genouinly interested in historical facts. This is why, until fairly recently when it became clear you think or wish to portray yourself as a "I know all, and don't need your info thank you very much", that I resorted to this childish provocative postings, which I get from you.

We can start out a fresh page, with mutual respect. But I urge you to go and study for yourself. Read encyclopedias. Read wikipedia for god sake. Using radical left wingers Israelis as a source for your own agenda is ill-advised - it's as if I'll base my entire ideas on Kahanists and radical right wingers. Unfortunately, our hard left-wingers hold exactly the same opinions your hard left-wingers posses, so it doesn't really matter if you use Israeli radical left source or British pro-Palestinian - they'll read the same. I have left winger friends and Arab friends, and I have right winger friends as well. If you'll be interested to know my political affiliation or idea on how to solve the situation, I'll be glad to write a piece of paper on this and post it on the board. Ofcourse, we can just continue this tiring bickering at eachother until others will just ignore us.

[ExpandMyMind]

1. You accuse me of being weak on the education of these matters, yet you're the one who has been taken in by a hoax? Now you are just reverting to calling me uneducated, ill informed, and the rest, as a means to avoid discussing and debating the material I present. What a silly way to deflect criticism.

2. I have been reading on the subject - I'm willing to bet I have read far more than you have.

3. First you accuse me of using only pro-sources, and now you say that my use of the mass media, including your very own Haaretz, I assume, is also to be disregarded and ridiculed. Eh, I think you'll find that's called fixing the game.

4. I have never typed 'Zionist colonialism' into Google. Like I've stated many times now, I have spent many a month reading relevant material written by many historians - you have done nothing to refute anything I have presented, other than claim my sources are not respectable. Here, in yet another thread, you have done the same again.

5. I don't propose to know it all, I just know enough to expose certain myths to the realities of the situation. You are correct though, it is the historical facts I am interested in and not just when it comes to Palestine.

6. I have researched much material, you just wave the findings away as 'revisionist' and a number of other silly labels when their findings don't conform with your preset ideas.

7. You continually label my sources as 'radical left';'pro-Palestinian' etc., when I have never used a source that could be described in that manner. This is yet more of the same: Wishing away material as whatever you want in a rather weak attempt to dismiss anything that you don't agree with. Yet, you, yourself, have resorted to using pro-Israeli, right wing, fanatical at times, sources. The Middle East forum is a clear example of that. Show me once where I have lowered myself to referencing a source of such low caliber? You are accusing me of things I am innocent of, yet you yourself are guilty.

8. Start addressing the actual content of my respected sources and my posts that contain a lot of information, then we can continue. Don't attempt to take the moral high ground, accusing me of all these things I am not guilty of, all so you can aviod actually debating the content and findings of any articles, etc., that you don't agree with.

9. Please do not pretend that you are some sort of easy going, knowledgeable individual, when you have presented Joan Peters' hoax many times as fact. A hoax that actually does away with all Palestinian claim to the land. This is not a moderate person. This is the extreme of the extreme. So, please, leave it out, would you?

Now please, can we get back on topic (in all the threads?)? You have done nothing but derail the lot of them.

Edited October 5, 2010 by expandmymind

[Erikl]

OMG! even when offered a clean page, to the benefit of both of us and the readers of this board, you disagree.

I guess some people are like that... only in for the fight. I did response to your posts, yet you dismissed it as my own opinions, or ignored them all together. You are impossible to discuss with I'm afraid. Kid, as I said before - grow up. I offered you a nice fresh start. You choose to continue these endless emotional pickering. Do what you want, me and the rest of the people on this board just have to treat you the way you are - a child. Enjoy your propaganda spread. Oh, and I'll save you the time - "A true non-reply! ". Whatever, kid.

Edited October 5, 2010 by Erikl

[ExpandMyMind]

Why should I have accepted your offer? You still haven't read or addressed any of the content. You're just going to continue with the same denials when I present actual evidence. It's not 'pickering' to expose your tactics.

Anyways...

[Mr.United_Nations]

Can you two just shhh please? Israel has done many bad things including the raid on the turkish trade ships heading to help the Palestinans. I think we should put a trade embargo in Israel and take thier guns,tanks and planes. Look on youtube and you see many clips of Israeli troops absuing Palstines and even innocent bystanders and farmers.

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Can you two just shhh please? Israel has done many bad things including the raid on the turkish trade ships heading to help the Palestinans. I think we should put a trade embargo in Israel and take thier guns,tanks and planes. Look on youtube and you see many clips of Israeli troops absuing Palstines and even innocent bystanders and farmers.

Who would that be? America? Britain? Finland?

[Mr.United_Nations]

Who would that be? America? Britain? Finland?

Well the western powers

[Pseudo Intellectual]

Well the western powers

And you don't think it would be a little difficult to disarm Israel? For instance, won't countless troops die in the process? What would attacking Israel accomplish?

[MichaelW]

Case and point.

Case: you're still being facetious. Now matter how much "education" on the subject you have, nothing can beat actual everyday experience. Of course he's going to defend Israel. It isn't a tactic or anything. It's what anyone would do when their country is constantly abused.

Point: Every single post you've made in this thread. The evidence doesn't lie.

[ExpandMyMind]

Case: you're still being facetious. Now matter how much "education" on the subject you have, nothing can beat actual everyday experience. Of course he's going to defend Israel. It isn't a tactic or anything. It's what anyone would do when their country is constantly abused.

Point: Every single post you've made in this thread. The evidence doesn't lie.

Another pointless post Michael. I do wonder why you even bother posting in this particular sub-forum.

The tactic I was referring to, was the fact that he doesn't read any evidence I provide. All he offers is his already formulated opinion.

[ExpandMyMind]

And you don't think it would be a little difficult to disarm Israel? For instance, won't countless troops die in the process? What would attacking Israel accomplish?

You wouldn't have to physically disarm them. Stop sending them military aid; stop sending them much needed upgrades for planes and defense missiles, etc.; stop providing them with a get out of jail card; and you would soon see Israel start to comply with international law.

[Erikl]

You wouldn't have to physically disarm them. Stop sending them military aid; stop sending them much needed upgrades for planes and defense missiles, etc.; stop providing them with a get out of jail card; and you would soon see Israel start to comply with international law.

Lets disarm the UK first. The b******* occupy countries they don't have borders with! Free Iraq! Free Afghanistan! Free Gilbrartar! and of course - let's disassemble the Commonwealth of Nations - it's a new version of British colonialism!

[ExpandMyMind]

Lets disarm the UK first. The b******* occupy countries they don't have borders with! Free Iraq! Free Afghanistan! Free Gilbrartar! and of course - let's disassemble the Commonwealth of Nations - it's a new version of British colonialism!

I would actually understand the World having a desire to boycott Britain. Hell, after I read about the Chagos Islands, I would participate.. if I could?

[Mr.United_Nations]

I would actually understand the World having a desire to boycott Britain. Hell, after I read about the Chagos Islands, I would participate.. if I could?

Ever heeard of trade?..ops wrong person to reply to lol

[Pseudo Intellectual]

You wouldn't have to physically disarm them. Stop sending them military aid; stop sending them much needed upgrades for planes and defense missiles, etc.; stop providing them with a get out of jail card; and you would soon see Israel start to comply with international law.

We could take away Israel's guns, tanks and planes by not sending them the pathetic 2 billion dollars a year in military “aid”? Israel's GDP is 200 billion and their military expenditures are 10 billion. You think 2 billion dollars (which probably do more good for us than for Israel, by the way) are somehow single-handedly responsible for keeping Israel armed? Even if we were single-handedly responsible for arming Israel, free of charge, you don't think they could get their weapons from someone else?

Feel free to contact your local representative in the UK to request cutting off all ties with Israel, Expand. The overwhelming majority of Americans, on the other hand, would rather keep Israel as an ally.