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ExpandMyMind

Two Israeli troops guilty of using human

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ExpandMyMind

When was the last time the organisations behind Hezbollah and Hamas ever accused their soldiers for using humans as shield?

They always operate from civil areas, so when Israel attacks them, always civilians will be killed.

.

This simply is not true. When have they used human shields?

In the Gaza war it was the IDF who set up in the midst of civilians, dictating where the battles would be fought. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch found that Hamas did not use human shields.

Their investigations yielded the same results in 2006, concluding that even when fighting broke out near civilian areas Hezbollah did everything they could to move the fighting elsewhere.

Search this forum for 'Amnesty' and 'HRW' - I have posted their findings from both conflicts.

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danielost

This simply is not true. When have they used human shields?

In the Gaza war it was the IDF who set up in the midst of civilians, dictating where the battles would be fought. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch found that Hamas did not use human shields.

Their investigations yielded the same results in 2006, concluding that even when fighting broke out near civilian areas Hezbollah did everything they could to move the fighting elsewhere.

Search this forum for 'Amnesty' and 'HRW' - I have posted their findings from both conflicts.

during the last war between hezbollah and isreal, they forced civilians, by gun, to occupy a building that they had an artillery piece in. which had the affect it was supposed to have, you anti isreal types throw a fit even after they found out about the big gun in the basement.

i just did a quick search and it seems that the palistinians dont agree with you either.

March 15, 2008 - To enlighten those who may have harbored any doubts, Fathi Ahmad Hammad, member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, said it loud and said it proud: Palestinians deliberately use women and children as human shields.

This is the transcript of his remarks (but it is worth watching the clip just to hear the hatred in his voice):

[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Hammad is a leader of the Izzedeen al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, and in 2006 was elected to the Palestinian Parliament as a Hamas representative. He is also director of Al-Aqsa TV, which aired his comments on February 29.

You may remember Al-Aqsa TV. This is the TV station that fills dear little ears with hate, that brought Palestinian children Farfur Mouse and Nahoul Bee. Among its many poisonous features are music videos, such as one showing a four-year-old girl singing a song to her mom, who blows herself up and kills four Israeli soldiers. Afterwards the girl holds a bomb and sings: "I am following Mommy in her steps." Other videos feature children in military uniforms and holding guns.

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/headline/admit.htm

here is a video of hezbollah using civilian shields and isreal taking out the launcher without to much damage to the house.

Edited by danielost

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Mr.United_Nations

during the last war between hezbollah and isreal, they forced civilians, by gun, to occupy a building that they had an artillery piece in. which had the affect it was supposed to have, you anti isreal types throw a fit even after they found out about the big gun in the basement.

Didn't some Israeli troops shoot innocent Palestinian children once?

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danielost

Didn't some Israeli troops shoot innocent Palestinian children once?

we may be talking about the same thing.

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ExpandMyMind

during the last war between hezbollah and isreal, they forced civilians, by gun, to occupy a building that they had an artillery piece in. which had the affect it was supposed to have, you anti isreal types throw a fit even after they found out about the big gun in the basement.

i just did a quick search and it seems that the palistinians dont agree with you either.

March 15, 2008 - To enlighten those who may have harbored any doubts, Fathi Ahmad Hammad, member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, said it loud and said it proud: Palestinians deliberately use women and children as human shields.

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/headline/admit.htm

Your first claim is completely baseless.

This isn't proof, Daniel. There is one time I can think of, and it was the event with the women shielding the Hamas members from a bombing campaign. Remember, such bombings are completely illegal under international law, not to mention immoral. So the term 'human sheilds' when there isn't actually a conflict in progress (ie., Operation Cast Lead), is not exactly true.

Look at it this way - do you consider an off duty IDF soldier in a shopping mall in, say, Tel Aviv, to be guilty of using human shields? What about when he's at home, sitting, eating his dinner? There should be no case for the human shield accusation in those situations, rightly. So why then, when a Hamas member surrounds himself amongst people when there is no active war going on, should it be any different? He shouldn't be attacked in the first place.

And remember, as I have shown, Hamas are a much changed and ever-evolving organisation - they don't blow up buses or shopping malls anymore. So when you refer to matters such as these, remember that we are talking about the past, not the present.

The fact remains that during any of the wars none of the claims against Hamas or Hezbollah regarding human shields have been found to have merit. When they actually know for sure that they will be targeted, they do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties by steering clear of them - which it has to be said, is not true of Israel's actions in the past two wars.

And it should also be noted that, so far as I can tell, and contrary to what the article you provided claims, that man is not the leader of the Al Qassam Brigades, nor was he ever.

But thanks, that was the first reply of yours in about a year that was actually worth responding to.

Edited by expandmymind

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danielost

Your first claim is completely baseless.

This isn't proof, Daniel. There is one time I can think of, and it was the event with the women shielding the Hamas members from a bombing campaign. Remember, such bombings are completely illegal under international law, not to mention immoral. So the term 'human sheilds' when there isn't actually a conflict in progress (ie., Operation Cast Lead), is not exactly true.

Look at it this way - do you consider an off duty IDF soldier in a shopping mall in, say, Tel Aviv, to be guilty of using human shields? What about when he's at home, sitting, eating his dinner? There should be no case for the human shield accusation in those situations, rightly. So why then, when a Hamas member surrounds himself amongst people when there is no active war going on, should it be any different? He shouldn't be attacked in the first place.

And remember, as I have shown, Hamas are a much changed and ever-evolving organisation - they don't blow up buses or shopping malls anymore. So when you refer to matters such as these, remember that we are talking about the past, not the present.

The fact remains that during any of the wars none of the claims against Hamas or Hezbollah regarding human shields have been found to have merit. When they actually know for sure that they will be targeted, they do everything they can to avoid civilian casualties - which it has to be said, is not true of Israel's actions in the past two wars.

And it should also be noted that, so far as I can tell, and contrary to what the article you provided claims, that man is not the leader of the Al Qassam Brigades, nor was he ever.

But thanks, that was the first reply of yours in about a year that was actually worth responding to.

it comes straight out of their mouths that they did this, and you say it doesnt count. now tell us you dont have an agenda here. by the way i didnt bother reading the rest of that post, since it doesnt count.

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ExpandMyMind

it comes straight out of their mouths that they did this, and you say it doesnt count. now tell us you dont have an agenda here. by the way i didnt bother reading the rest of that post, since it doesnt count.

When the attacks [bombings] against them are themselves in violation of international law, why then should they [those accused] then be expected to sequester themselves off from the general population? They shouldn't be attacked in the first place. I wouldn't, and don't agree with Israeli soldiers being bombed on the bus while traveling to the library, why would the reverse be any different?

And the example I gave was pertinent, I thought. It's your choice not to read it.

Now if they do so, or have done so, during the course of a recognised war, then that is different altogether. Show me the last time this happened? I expect to be shown many examples for, after all, you do claim that this is some sort of inherent policy, all based on one man's propaganda speech.

In reference to the video above - how do we know that 'house' was even a civilian structure? How do we know that the video was even from 2006?

It should also be noted, that even if it was a civilian structure, while it is illegal to house military objects in civilians areas, the very same section of law makes clear that this can in no way be used to justify launching an attack on said structure if there is any doubt as to whether or not there are civilians present. Or in other words, two wrongs don't make a right.

http://deoxy.org/wc/wc-proto.htm

Edited by expandmymind

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danielost

When the attacks [bombings] against them are themselves in violation of international law, why then should they [those accused] then be expected to sequester themselves off from the general population? They shouldn't be attacked in the first place. I don't agree with Israeli soldiers being bombed on the bus while traveling to the library, why would the reverse be any different?

And the example I gave was pertinent, I thought. It's your choice not to read it.

Now if they do so, or have done so, during the course of a recognised war, then that is different altogether. Show me the last time this happened? I expect to be shown many examples, for after all, you do claim that this is some sort of inherent policy, all based on one man's propaganda speech.

right lets forget the two years of them (hezbollah) firing rockets into isreal before isreal attacked them

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ExpandMyMind

right lets forget the two years of them (hezbollah) firing rockets into isreal before isreal attacked them

Don't try to pretend that the attacks only went one way...

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danielost

Don't try to pretend that the attacks only went one way...

ok then dont pretend that the attacks were started by isreal.

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The Silver Thong

during the last war between hezbollah and isreal, they forced civilians, by gun, to occupy a building that they had an artillery piece in. which had the affect it was supposed to have, you anti isreal types throw a fit even after they found out about the big gun in the basement.

i just did a quick search and it seems that the palistinians dont agree with you either.

March 15, 2008 - To enlighten those who may have harbored any doubts, Fathi Ahmad Hammad, member of the Palestinian Legislative Council, said it loud and said it proud: Palestinians deliberately use women and children as human shields.

This is the transcript of his remarks (but it is worth watching the clip just to hear the hatred in his voice):

[The enemies of Allah] do not know that the Palestinian people has developed its [methods] of death and death-seeking. For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: "We desire death like you desire life."

Hammad is a leader of the Izzedeen al-Qassam Brigades, the military wing of Hamas, and in 2006 was elected to the Palestinian Parliament as a Hamas representative. He is also director of Al-Aqsa TV, which aired his comments on February 29.

You may remember Al-Aqsa TV. This is the TV station that fills dear little ears with hate, that brought Palestinian children Farfur Mouse and Nahoul Bee. Among its many poisonous features are music videos, such as one showing a four-year-old girl singing a song to her mom, who blows herself up and kills four Israeli soldiers. Afterwards the girl holds a bomb and sings: "I am following Mommy in her steps." Other videos feature children in military uniforms and holding guns.

http://www.peacewithrealism.org/headline/admit.htm

here is a video of hezbollah using civilian shields and isreal taking out the launcher without to much damage to the house.

I think I heard about this but you better supply a link.

Oh you did never mind

Edited by The Silver Thong

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ok then dont pretend that the attacks were started by isreal.

Famously, the Arabs don't need excuses to kill Jews. As everyone knows, only self-hating Jews believe there's a connection between the Israeli side's behavior in the occupied territories and violent acts by the Palestinian side. Right?

Not according to a recent article in the important Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, a journal that comes out in Washington. Contrary to the received version that "Israel only reacts" to Palestinian violence, the article scientifically shows that the cycle of violence spins in both directions. The three researchers - Prof. Nancy Kanwisher from the United States, Dr. Johannes Haushofer from Switzerland and Prof. Anat Biletzki from Israel - question previous articles claiming the Palestinian do not need provocations from the Israeli side, and that the terror attacks and rockets do not come in response to assassinations and attacks on Israel's part.

The article sums up a statistical analysis of the data on fatalities and Qassam launchings from 2000-2008, published by the Israel Defense Forces Spokesman and B'Tselem - The Israel Information centre for Human Rights in the Territories. The analysis was done using a method called vector autoregression, which enables isolation and analysis of how a single incidence of violence by one side influences the other.

Haushofer, an economist and neurobiologist at the University of Zurich, says the study shows that every time one side attacks the other, it can know with near certainty the other side will respond with violence. In this way, in effect, violence directly causes more Palestinian casualties or another rocket attack on Israel.

For example, according to the article's model, when Israel kills five Palestinians, the chances an Israeli will be killed by Palestinians the following day increase by 50 percent. Haushofer explains that he and his colleagues conducted the inquiry to "clear out" the rhetoric, the stereotypes and the ideological claims and to focus the discussion on the facts and their scientific and sane analysis.

Kanwisher, who heads the "Kanwisher Lab" for brain research at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, points to a cognitive bias on both sides, which do not see their own reactivity and responsibility for the conflict. "Thus, for example, even though the Israelis are the occupying side, they see themselves as victims of the other side," she says.

Without any direct connection to the article's research findings, Kanwisher says the Israelis do not understand their role in creating the violence of the other side. She suggests the policy makers in the United States direct their attention to the fact that acts like stealing Palestinian lands and violations of basic human rights are perpetuating the continuation of the conflict. And, in the nature of things, a conflict leads to one or another level of violence.

The third partner in the article, a Tel Aviv University professor of philosophy, Anat Biletzki, says the article knocks the scientific basis out from under the claim that the conflict is unilateral, and that the Palestinians attack Israel while Israel "only reacts."

"We are hoping the article will contribute facts and numbers to the public discussion of the conflict," says Biletzki, who for many years headed B'Tselem.

Biletzki contributes a political diagnosis of her own: "I don't need scientific research to determine that all the behavior of the Palestinians is a reaction to the Israeli occupation. For this, common sense is enough."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/once-reviled-the-oslo-accords-are-now-the-settlers-best-asset-1.317235

Violence begets violence. You seem to think Israel are innocent. And in case you have forgotten (or maybe just didn't know) Israel still holds thousands of Lebanese as prisoner.

While that article is specifically directed towards Israel/Palestine, the fundamentals are the same.

Edited by expandmymind

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danielost

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/features/once-reviled-the-oslo-accords-are-now-the-settlers-best-asset-1.317235

Violence begets violence. You seem to think Israel are innocent. And in case you have forgotten (or maybe just didn't know) Israel still holds thousands of Lebanese as prisoner.

While that article is specifically directed towards Israel/Palestine, the fundamentals are the same.

yea yea it is known as an eye for an eye.

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Abramelin

This simply is not true. When have they used human shields?

In the Gaza war it was the IDF who set up in the midst of civilians, dictating where the battles would be fought. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch found that Hamas did not use human shields.

Their investigations yielded the same results in 2006, concluding that even when fighting broke out near civilian areas Hezbollah did everything they could to move the fighting elsewhere.

Search this forum for 'Amnesty' and 'HRW' - I have posted their findings from both conflicts.

Hiding in cities and villages is for me the same as fighting behind a human shield.

Look, it's ok with me that you try to show us the other side of the coin, but you appear as much biassed as anyone defending everything Israel does. You also fall for propaganda, but you think you are more informed than others here. I have heard Palestinians talk from a more broader view than you ever did here.

Nobody - at least not me - is happy when seeing women and children killed, no matter whether they are Arabs or Jews.

Oh, and when was the last time the Israelis used children as soldiers? Now don't tell me it is not true, I have seen documentaries of Hezbollah training kids of 12 years old.

mahdiscouts2.jpg

Hezbollah's Mahdi Scouts in Beirut parade commemorating "Jerusalem Day"

I can also tell you why: any Israeli guy will think twice before shooting a kid he has in full view. They will, of course, when they are totally ***** up by the war, or when that kid kills one of the fellow soldiers.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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ExpandMyMind

Hiding in cities and villages is for me the same as fighting behind a human shield.

Look, it's ok with me that you try to show us the other side of the coin, but you appear as much biassed as anyone defending everything Israel does. You also fall for propaganda, but you think you are more informed than others here. I have heard Palestinians talk from a more broader view than you ever did here.

Nobody - at least not me - is happy when seeing women and children killed, no matter whether they are Arabs or Jews.

Oh, and when was the last time the Israelis used children as soldiers? Now don't tell me it is not true, I have seen documentaries of Hezbollah training kids of 12 years old.

mahdiscouts2.jpg

Hezbollah's Mahdi Scouts in Beirut parade commemorating "Jerusalem Day"

I can also tell you why: any Israeli guy will think twice before shooting a kid he has in full view. They will, of course, when they are totally ***** up by the war, or when that kid kills one of the fellow soldiers.

.

How are Amnesty, the Goldstone Report and HRW propaganda? After all, it is from them - human rights organisations - that I learned of Hamas and Hezbollahs actions, or rather, inactions, regarding the use of human shields. During the hostilities neither of them housed themselves in civilian areas, nor did they adopt any other form of human shields. It's not like I heard this from Hamas or something... It's also not like I wasn't surprised as hell to find out about it. After all, I was only privy to the same IDF propaganda (actual propaganda) as everyone else.

And they put those 'soldiers' (scouts) into battle do they? Could you link me to info regarding the wars where these kids have been used? And it's simple really, if anyone raises a weapon (gun), then they cease to be anything other than a combatant, whether that someone be a child, woman or man.

I haven't heard of any of the related Arabs use of children in that manner. To me the ones you have presented just seem like any other scouts. Are they given guns?

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Abramelin

How are Amnesty, the Goldstone Report and HRW propaganda? After all, it is from them - human rights organisations - that I learned of Hamas and Hezbollahs actions, or rather, inactions, regarding the use of human shields. During the hostilities neither of them housed themselves in civilian areas, nor did they adopt any other form of human shields. It's not like I heard this from Hamas or something... It's also not like I wasn't surprised as hell to find out about it. After all, I was only privy to the same IDF propaganda (actual propaganda) as everyone else.

And they put those 'soldiers' (scouts) into battle do they? Could you link me to info regarding the wars where these kids have been used? And it's simple really, if anyone raises a weapon (gun), then they cease to be anything other than a combatant, whether that someone be a child, woman or man.

I haven't heard of any of the related Arabs use of children in that manner. To me the ones you have presented just seem like any other scouts. Are they given guns?

I can only tell you what Palestinian refugees, here in Holland, told me.

Yes, they do use kids, as suicide bombers or even as soldiers.

These Palestinians I talked with really HATED the Israelis, but nevertheless they admitted they used kids as soldiers, and - to me - they said they felt ashamed about it, but also that it was 'necessary for the greater cause'.

--

Of course you will NEVER find that on an internet site or on YouTube, but it made me think...

.

Edited by Abramelin

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danielost

How are Amnesty, the Goldstone Report and HRW propaganda? After all, it is from them - human rights organisations - that I learned of Hamas and Hezbollahs actions, or rather, inactions, regarding the use of human shields. During the hostilities neither of them housed themselves in civilian areas, nor did they adopt any other form of human shields. It's not like I heard this from Hamas or something... It's also not like I wasn't surprised as hell to find out about it. After all, I was only privy to the same IDF propaganda (actual propaganda) as everyone else.

And they put those 'soldiers' (scouts) into battle do they? Could you link me to info regarding the wars where these kids have been used? And it's simple really, if anyone raises a weapon (gun), then they cease to be anything other than a combatant, whether that someone be a child, woman or man.

I haven't heard of any of the related Arabs use of children in that manner. To me the ones you have presented just seem like any other scouts. Are they given guns?

yes amnesty is bias as they state themselves, they go after democratic and open countries such as the usa and isreal.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?app=forums&module=post&section=post&do=reply_post&f=141&t=191590&qpid=3602374

Amnesty reports disproportionately on relatively more democratic and open countries,[41] arguing that its intention is not to produce a range of reports which statistically represents the world’s human rights abuses, but rather to apply the pressure of public opinion to encourage improvements. The demonstration effect of the behaviour of both key Western governments and major non-Western states is an important factor: as one former Amnesty Secretary-General pointed out, "for many countries and a large number of people, the United States is a model," and according to one Amnesty manager, "large countries influence small countries."[5] In addition, with the end of the Cold War, Amnesty felt that a greater emphasis on human rights in the North was needed to improve its credibility with its Southern critics by demonstrating its willingness to report on human rights issues in a truly global manner.[5]

the goldstone report was sponsered by the un, the un is biased against isreal. and even they didnt want to accept this report,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Fact_Finding_Mission_on_the_Gaza_Conflict

The mission's final report was released 15 September 2009, and accused both Israel Defense Forces and Palestinian militants of war crimes and possible crimes against humanity. It recommended that the sides openly investigate their own conduct and, should they fail to do so, that the allegations to be brought to the International Criminal Court.[4][5] The government of Israel rejected the report as prejudiced and full of errors, and also sharply rejected the charge that it had a policy of deliberately targeting civilians.[6] The militant Islamic group Hamas, which governs the Gaza Strip, initially rejected some of the report's findings,[7] but then urged world powers to embrace it.[8]

and hrw seems to have the same agenda as amnesty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_Rights_Watch

Notably, billionaire financier and philanthropist George Soros announced in 2010 his intention to donate US$100 million to HRW over a period of ten years. He said, "Human Rights Watch is one of the most effective organizations I support. Human rights underpin our greatest aspirations: they're at the heart of open societies

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ExpandMyMind

I can only tell you what Palestinian refugees, here in Holland, told me.

Yes, they do use kids, as suicide bombers or even as soldiers.

These Palestinians I talked with really HATED the Israelis, but nevertheless they admitted they used kids as soldiers, and - to me - they said they felt ashamed about it, but also that it was 'necessary for the greater cause'.

--

Of course you will NEVER find that on an internet site or on YouTube, but it made me think...

.

You would think that if they were indeed used as soldiers or suicide bombers then that would be plastered all over the TV and internet.

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danielost

I can only tell you what Palestinian refugees, here in Holland, told me.

Yes, they do use kids, as suicide bombers or even as soldiers.

These Palestinians I talked with really HATED the Israelis, but nevertheless they admitted they used kids as soldiers, and - to me - they said they felt ashamed about it, but also that it was 'necessary for the greater cause'.

--

Of course you will NEVER find that on an internet site or on YouTube, but it made me think...

.

i had a palestinian lady tell me they operate on the bases that all isrealies 3 years old and up are soldiers.

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danielost

You would think that if they were indeed used as soldiers or suicide bombers then that would be plastered all over the TV and internet.

except the media for the most part is controlled by people like soros who are like you and dont like isreal.

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Abramelin

You would think that if they were indeed used as soldiers or suicide bombers then that would be plastered all over the TV and internet.

Yes, they do: "Israeli soldiers killed innocent kids during an attack".

THAT is what they show you.

But they DON'T show you these kids wore arms.

These kids are not dressed up as soldiers, they are dressed up as civilians.

Some even wear a puppet in their shirts, just to make them look 'innocent'.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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ExpandMyMind

Daniel, did you honestly just try to claim that those two human rights organisations are biased?

Every UN investigation is carried out by independent investigators who's motives and morals cannot even be questioned, which is why their reports are so damning. Do you even know who Goldstone is? Only one of the most respected Judges on the planet.

Goldstone's work investigating violence led directly to him being nominated to serve as the first chief prosecutor of the United Nations International Criminal Tribunal for the former Yugoslavia and for Rwanda from August 1994 to September 1996.[2] He prosecuted a number of key war crimes suspects, notably the Bosnian Serb political and military leaders, Radovan Karadžić and Ratko Mladić. On his return to South Africa he took up a seat on the newly-established Constitutional Court of South Africa, to which he had been nominated by President Nelson Mandela.[

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

What exactly do you think you have proven by quoting the links above? Seriously?

Nothing.

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danielost

Daniel, did you honestly just try to claim that those two human rights organisations are biased?

Every UN investigation is carried out by independent investigators who's motives and morals cannot even be questioned, which is why their reports are so damning. Do you even know who Goldstone is? Only one of the most respected Judges on the planet.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Goldstone

What exactly do you think you have proven by quoting the links above? Seriously?

Nothing.

no i didnt. they did.

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Mr.United_Nations

except the media for the most part is controlled by people like soros who are like you and dont like isreal.

No wonder the Americans are so easily confused, they led by propaganda and media lies

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ExpandMyMind

Yes, they do: "Israeli soldiers killed innocent kids during an attack".

THAT is what they show you.

But they DON'T show you these kids wore arms.

These kids are not dressed up as soldiers, they are dressed up as civilians.

Some even wear a puppet in their shirts, just to make them look 'innocent'.

.

LOL so you seriously think that the kids Israel has killed in the past were all Scouts?

I'm sorry to say it but you've veered into conspiracy theory territory with that one.

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