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ExpandMyMind

Two Israeli troops guilty of using human

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Knight Of Shadows

just because i don't oppose my goverment doesn't mean am ruling family

btw .. we don't rule by family :P we have republic rule

so think before you talk ...

and i didn't accuse you of being of american and israel goverment

although every thing they do doesn't seem wrong to " you " :D

anyhow those claims of resistance hide among civilians is without prove

other than israel claim .. and no way in hell am taking their word for it

just like you wouldn't take my word for anything sameo sameo

and you just declared that anyone oppose israel is anti-israel

am not sure what's worst .. your claim or the way you explained it

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Br Cornelius

I oppose Israel because of their criminal foundation and their ongoing breaches of International Law. Nothing can be done about the first, but the later can be corrected and then my opinion of Israel will improve. If I thought that Israel was serious about a lasting peace deal, and they were prepared to arrive at it in keeping with International Law, then my opposition to Israel would go.

Israel gains to much from the current state of affairs so I have very little confidence that they will change their criminal ways, and so I have very little confidence that I will stop been anti-Israel for the forseeable future.

People who defend Israel for who they are are condoning criminality as far as I am concerned.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Mr.United_Nations

no because that dictatorship cant do anything wrong in your eyes. i stated you were either part of the government or part of the ruling family.

anti-isreal is anyone who stands against isreal and makes excuses for her enemies who attacked her first.

as i have stated and linked to a couple of times when the first jews arrived from europe in 1938(?), the ruler at the time welcomed them home. one year later the arabs started killing them. so no the jews did not start this this time around the arabs did.

the arabs hide amongst the civilians so that when isreal attacks their rocket launchers and other weapons, they can cry see isreal only wants to kill civilians. and people like expand. gobble it up and when the arabs target a grade school they say isreal attacked civilians first.

So its right to go into someones conutry without thier permsion?

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ExpandMyMind

anti-isreal is anyone who stands against isreal and makes excuses for her enemies who attacked her first.

There's only one problem with this theory of yours: you are reversing cause and effect.

Occupation - then resistance. End the occupation and the attacks would stop. It really is that simple. The occupation is the 'first attack'.

If the occupation ended and Gaza and the West Bank were left well alone, but the attacks continued, then you would be justified in your assertion that Israel is attacked first. To openly claim that Israel is merely reacting is to look through the narrowest window at the situation.

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danielost

So its right to go into someones conutry without thier permsion?

so its ok invite someone into your country, with the words welcome home and then kill them.

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danielost

There's only one problem with this theory of yours: you are reversing cause and effect.

Occupation - then resistance. End the occupation and the attacks would stop. It really is that simple. The occupation is the 'first attack'.

If the occupation ended and Gaza and the West Bank were left well alone, but the attacks continued, then you would be justified in your assertion that Israel is attacked first. To openly claim that Israel is merely reacting is to look through the narrowest window at the situation.

only because your not going far enough back in history to see the real aggresser here.

are you talking about this one.

The rapid increase in Jewish migration led to a large-scale Arab rebellion in Palestine from 1936-1939. The Jewish Agency leader, Ben-Gurion responded to the revolt with Havlagah, a policy of not responding to Arab attacks in order to prevent polarization. The Etzel left the Haganah because of its failure to avenge Arab attacks on Jews.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Israel

same site.

On May 14, 1948, the last British forces left Haifa, and the Jewish Agency, led by David Ben-Gurion, declared the creation of the State of Israel, in accordance with the 1947 UN Partition Plan. Both superpower leaders, U.S. President Harry S. Truman and Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, immediately recognized the new state.

the first arab jew war. note the arabs attacked first, after the jews declared independence from england and partitioned palistine the way the un wanted. again they were trying not to fight anyone.

Arab League members Egypt, Transjordan, Syria, Lebanon and Iraq declared war and announced their rejection of the UN partition decision. They claimed the right of self-determination for the Arabs of Palestine over the whole of Palestine.[62] Saudi-Arabia and Sudan also sent forces.

oh and look isreali government sinking a ship with arms go to a jewish paramilitary group who refused to surrender them.

Following the announcement of independence, the Haganah became the Israel Defense Forces and the Palmach, Etzel and Lehi were required to join and cease independent existence. During the ceasefire, Etzel attempted to bring in a private arms shipment aboard a ship called "Altalena". When they refused to unconditionally hand over the arms to the government, Ben-Gurion ordered that the ship be sunk. Several Etzel members were killed in the fighting.

once again arab aggression

Israeli troops preparing for combat in the Sinai peninsula.The Sinai Campaign came about as conflict between Egypt and Israel increased in 1956. During the Fifties, hundreds of Israelis were killed in Fedayeen attacks from (Egyptian occupied) Gaza into Israeli territory. The attacks began as private initiatives by Palestinian refugees and the victims were frequently Jewish refugees from Arab countries. Fedayeen attacks led to a growing cycle of violence as Israel launched reprisal attacks against Gaza and the Egyptian government organized and sponsored the Fedayeen.

so you have been proven wrong. the arabs started the attacks, after the jews kicked the brits out. not only that but the jews were going to teach jewish traditional in their schools so they created a seperate school system for the arabs living there.

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ExpandMyMind

Daniel you've taken the situation away from the realities. While much of what you posted is true (though there is a lot more to the situation than you seem to understand - there was no innocent party in the Mandate. Not worth getting into in this thread, or with you, to be honest), the reality is that the resistance is to the '67 occupation. This is where today's attacks stem from.

Even Hamas has called for peace on the '67 borders.

Again, just so you understand: the resistance is to Israel's occupation of what are universally known as 'The Occupied Palestinian Territories'. Or the West Bank and Gaza.

Edited by expandmymind

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danielost

Daniel you've taken the situation away from the realities. While much of what you posted is true (though there is a lot more to the situation than you seem to understand - there was no innocent party in the Mandate. Not worth getting into in this thread, or with you, to be honest), the reality is that the resistance is to the '67 occupation. This is where today's attacks stem from.

Even Hamas has called for peace on the '67 borders.

Again, just so you understand: the resistance is to Israel's occupation of what are universally known as 'The Occupied Palestinian Territories'. Or the West Bank and Gaza.

and they are occupied because the arabs attacked them. and once again your proven wrong and you state it doesnt count. as long as the arabs are shown to be the bad guys it doesnt count.

your statement was that the jews started the attacks, i have proven you wrong.

Edited by danielost

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Erikl

Daniel you've taken the situation away from the realities. While much of what you posted is true (though there is a lot more to the situation than you seem to understand - there was no innocent party in the Mandate. Not worth getting into in this thread, or with you, to be honest), the reality is that the resistance is to the '67 occupation. This is where today's attacks stem from.

Even Hamas has called for peace on the '67 borders.

Again, just so you understand: the resistance is to Israel's occupation of what are universally known as 'The Occupied Palestinian Territories'. Or the West Bank and Gaza.

Nonsense. The person who is constantly taking things away from reality is you - in each and every post or thread. Even when present with facts, you give them your own interpretation and then jump into conclusions and present them as if they were true. You are going to ask for examples - well look at every post on the issue!

You are well aware that the resistance is to the mere existence of Israel - the PLO was created in 1965! two years before the Six Days War. The Fatah, the most prominent member of the PLO, was created in the 1950s. Which part of "occupied" Palestine did try to liberate? The name "West Bank" is anachronistic itself, and the result of the Jordanian occupation of Judea and Samaria from 1948-1967 (there was no attempt to build a Palestinian state there).

And Hamas did not call for peace - as I proved in the apologetic thread "Understanding Hamas" - a thread you should be ashamed of IMO as a citizen in a democratic country. The term Hamas use is "Hudna", a cease fire meant to rearm for a future extermination battle.

But have fun with meddling with facts and giving them your own interpretation.

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ExpandMyMind

Daniel, the Arabs did not attack Israel in '67. How many times do you need to be told and shown this. All you ever do is repeat the same crap consistently in thread, after being proven wrong countless times. I'm asking you honestly here, do you just forget automatically? What the hell is your problem Daniel? I'm genuinely concerned here.

Nonsense. The person who is constantly taking things away from reality is you - in each and every post or thread. Even when present with facts, you give them your own interpretation and then jump into conclusions and present them as if they were true. You are going to ask for examples - well look at every post on the issue!

You can't just claim the same things I've actually called you on and expect no one not to notice how weak your case is. I have this thing called evidence backing up my claims (Joan Peters LOL).

You are well aware that the resistance is to the mere existence of Israel - the PLO was created in 1965! two years before the Six Days War. The Fatah, the most prominent member of the PLO, was created in the 1950s. Which part of "occupied" Palestine did try to liberate? The name "West Bank" is anachronistic itself, and the result of the Jordanian occupation of Judea and Samaria from 1948-1967 (there was no attempt to build a Palestinian state there).

Yes! And here is an interesting point I get to bring up, because no one ever talks about this when peace is 'one the table': The reason Fatah and the PLO were created was because the new State of Israel had pushed 700,000 of them off their own land and showed no sign of addressing the international law (International Declaration of Human Rights, Article 13), taken an extra 25-30% of the land they were both offered, and indeed created a country on a country that by all rights, had no actual right to be handed to a large group of immigrants when you look at it through the Arabs' eyes. Tell, me, of the extra land taken in '48, how much have the Palestinians ever asked for in peace talks? None you say? Well, of course not, because they are resisting the '67 occupation since the original land grab has been pushed so far back in the minds of the masses, that people don't even talk about it anymore.

Don't pretend like Fatah and the PLO's cause wasn't as just as, say, Israel's cause when they decided to resist the British, creating their own resistance to the British 'Occupation' (or as they are and were (the groups) referred to in Britain, 'terrorists')

If Gypsies or any other group came to Israel and kicked you off of your land because they said their ancestors lived their 22 years before yours, their book says so, would you settle for that? Would you expect to be vilified for resisting it?

And Hamas did not call for peace - as I proved in the apologetic thread "Understanding Hamas" - a thread you should be ashamed of IMO as a citizen in a democratic country. The term Hamas use is "Hudna", a cease fire meant to rearm for a future extermination battle.

You proved nothing, at all. You seem to have a different understanding of what actually makes facts, well, facts!

Hamas: Peace with Israel for withdrawal to ’67 borders

Khaled Mashaal says during meeting with Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov in Moscow 'Israel must withdraw to the 1967 borders, abide by Palestinian refugees’ Right of Return if it wants peace.' Lavrov tells Hamas Moscow expects group to abide by all previous Palestinian agreements with Israel; speaking to the media before talks with Hamas delegation that arrived in Russia Friday, Lavrov warned that terrorist group will have no future if it fails to transform itself into a political institution. Russian analysts: Hamas won’t listen to Russia

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3223438,00.html

When they offered the truce, which is separate from the peace offer, they offered it with the intention of peace being negotiated within 10 years. 10 years is a long time of no hostile action where peace has a much greater chance of being negotiated.

Just to clear this up once and for all (unbelievable the amount of times I have to post the same links to you - and others - read them the first time and you would need to look so foolish):

Hamas: We will accept long-term truce if Gaza borders opened

Hamas leader Ghazi Hamad says his group wants 'to be part of the international community.'

http://www.haaretz.com/news/hamas-we-will-accept-long-term-truce-if-gaza-borders-opened-1.269116

Ouch. That's gotta smart.

But have fun with meddling with facts and giving them your own interpretation.

What complete crap. And I, unlike you, get to say that with actual conviction.

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danielost

sorry i count the planting of mines inside of isreal as an attack.

back to the subject of this site, these two isreali solders were wrong and i am glad that the court found it so.

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ExpandMyMind

Israeli soldiers walk free in Gaza human shield case

JERUSALEM — Two Israeli soldiers received suspended sentences and demotions on Sunday for using a Palestinian child as a human shield during the 2008-2009 Gaza war, an army spokeswoman said.

The soldiers were convicted on October 3 for forcing a nine-year-old boy to search bags believed to be booby-trapped during Israel's 22-day war on Gaza which erupted in December 2008.

The two, who were not identified, were each given suspended terms of three months imprisonment and were demoted from the rank of staff sergeant to sergeant.

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2010/11/soldiers-walk-free-human-shield/

Apart from my disgust, I have nothing else to convey here.

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MichaelW

Good. That will save a lot of problems.

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