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striker7

JFK Assassination

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Habitat

Strange then, that the Secret Service people detailed to the motorcade all say they heard three shots from behind. Let's be reasonable and say they were genuinely of that belief, how come they got it wrong ? They were right there, after all.

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MID

I'd say at least three shooters, too.

As for one should be done, I think you're right that the only way we'll ever know now is if JFK's body is exhumed and a real autopsy is done--and not a bogus one like the original.

I am not surprised that this has never been done, of course, and probably never will be. I think we can both guess why.

There you go.

As to reasons...I recall it was a matter of family preference. That's a bit of a stretch when one considers that this was a homicide that hadn't actually been solved, and which resulted in the evidence being removed from the jurisdiction in charge of the investigation before a proper medical-legal autopsy could be conducted.

There's probably plenty going on...still some people pulling strings, etc.

I don't know. But I do know that the evidence is inside a 48 year old grave. Mind you, there's no possibility of a reasonably intact body inside, but there might be enough to look at something. The one thing, and the most important, is that the bones will be there, and the skull, as it was re-assembled and filled with plaster by the mortician, will still be able to tell the story of what happened to it.

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MID

Strange then, that the Secret Service people detailed to the motorcade all say they heard three shots from behind. Let's be reasonable and say they were genuinely of that belief, how come they got it wrong ? They were right there, after all.

I don't think it's at all strange that not only Secret Service people, but all ear witnesses described shots supposedly coming from various directions; the TSBD area, up the east side of Elm Street, The Knoll area, the triple underpass area, the overpass itself, even the picket fence down the west end by the underpass. If you've ever been there, you will note that this is a big bowl with concrete and brick structures all around it. Sound gets bounced all over there. Where people said they heard shots come from never produced any conclusions about a precise location. Motorcycles, gunshots echoing, people making noise, automobiles running, and crowds being scanned left and right---all that would make hearing a shot and being able to pinpoint its origin somewhat difficult.

but again, I think the bottom line to this situation is that The body of John Kennedy was removed from Dallas, Texas, and the hands of a competent Chief Medical Examiner, Dr. Earl Rose, who legally was responsible, and was highly qualified, and required to perform a medico-legal autopsy. He never got the chance to do so, and as is apparent, one wasn't properly performed.

Had he been permitted to do his job, he could've been finished by 5-6 pm on 11-22, and the body of the President would've been home at the White House before midnight, instead of at 4 am Saturday the 23rd, after an all night botch job.

And, we would know what happened, and things may well have been a whole lot different, and, we wouldn't be here today talking about it!

Edited by MID

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Mike 215

I have been studying the assassination for many years and I know who gave the order to have him killed. That person was a woman named Madame Nhu (see google). She was a vicious and violent woman who Kennedy wanted killed, but failed. Instead her husband and brother in law, President Diem of South Vietnam were killed under his orders, both shot in the back of their heads.

So how do I know she gave the order? Madame Nhu was called THE DRAGON LADY by the press because in Vietnam she murdered thousands. She became the darling of the right wing in this country because she was an anti-communist and hated President Kennedy because he wanted her and her relatives to give up power which they refused. Finally he ordered a coup where her relatives were murdred, but she escaped because she was in the US at the time being honored by right wing billionaires.

When she learned about the murder of her relatives which was only three weeks before Kennedy's assassination, she held a newsconference where she threatened to get the president in revenge. Because she threatened to kill the president on live TV the Warren Commission said she was a suspect, but that was kept secret for 30 years and only revealed when some of the secret papers were made public in the early 1990s. See Kennedy Assassination Records Madame Nhu on google.

One site on google, Kennedy assassination Madame Nhu, gives you some evidence of her involvement in the assassination. However, the real evidence can be found on NY Times microfilm for November 1963 where there are five articles about her. The complete transcript of her newsconference can be found in the Nov. 3rd edition. There is a small aricle on the Nov. 24th edition where she wrote to Mrs. Kennedy and boasts about how her husband, Diem and Kennedy were all shot in the head. she ordered a head shot on Kennedy when she said in the news conference she will make him pay.

I do not want to go into more details, but the Catholic Church was involved where the Pope approved of the assassination. He was very angry that Diem, who was a real fighter against communism was killed and Madame Nhu, who was a religious Cathoic, would not have acted without his permission. I am not saying that the Pope was happy about his decision, but Madame Nhu was able to use theology to convince him. See the Law of Tryannicide on google where the Church approves the assassination of political leaders.

As for the role of the Mafia and Jack Ruby, it has always been an extention of the Church, but the Mafia would not have killed JFK on their own. They were ordered to do it from the Pope, Madame Nhu, Richard Nixon and the right wing billonaires. I believe that is the big secret of the assassination that the Church was involved.

Unfortunately Madame Nhu died a few months ago so we will not hear a death bed confession like the one given by E. Howard Hunt (see google).

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MID

I have been studying the assassination for many years and I know who gave the order to have him killed. That person was a woman named Madame Nhu (see google). She was a vicious and violent woman who Kennedy wanted killed, but failed. Instead her husband and brother in law, President Diem of South Vietnam were killed under his orders, both shot in the back of their heads.

So how do I know she gave the order? Madame Nhu was called THE DRAGON LADY by the press because in Vietnam she murdered thousands. She became the darling of the right wing in this country because she was an anti-communist and hated President Kennedy because he wanted her and her relatives to give up power which they refused. Finally he ordered a coup where her relatives were murdred, but she escaped because she was in the US at the time being honored by right wing billionaires.

When she learned about the murder of her relatives which was only three weeks before Kennedy's assassination, she held a newsconference where she threatened to get the president in revenge. Because she threatened to kill the president on live TV the Warren Commission said she was a suspect, but that was kept secret for 30 years and only revealed when some of the secret papers were made public in the early 1990s. See Kennedy Assassination Records Madame Nhu on google.

One site on google, Kennedy assassination Madame Nhu, gives you some evidence of her involvement in the assassination. However, the real evidence can be found on NY Times microfilm for November 1963 where there are five articles about her. The complete transcript of her newsconference can be found in the Nov. 3rd edition. There is a small aricle on the Nov. 24th edition where she wrote to Mrs. Kennedy and boasts about how her husband, Diem and Kennedy were all shot in the head. she ordered a head shot on Kennedy when she said in the news conference she will make him pay.

I do not want to go into more details, but the Catholic Church was involved where the Pope approved of the assassination. He was very angry that Diem, who was a real fighter against communism was killed and Madame Nhu, who was a religious Cathoic, would not have acted without his permission. I am not saying that the Pope was happy about his decision, but Madame Nhu was able to use theology to convince him. See the Law of Tryannicide on google where the Church approves the assassination of political leaders.

As for the role of the Mafia and Jack Ruby, it has always been an extention of the Church, but the Mafia would not have killed JFK on their own. They were ordered to do it from the Pope, Madame Nhu, Richard Nixon and the right wing billonaires. I believe that is the big secret of the assassination that the Church was involved.

Unfortunately Madame Nhu died a few months ago so we will not hear a death bed confession like the one given by E. Howard Hunt (see google).

Creative...yet sort of Ron Paul nuts in a quaint manner.

:wacko:

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Mike 215

If you have some time go to your public library and start reading some of the hundreds of books on the assassination. Look in the indexes of these books and see if Madame Nhu's name is listed, which it is not. So here we have a suspect in the assassination according to the Warren commission, yet there is not one author willing and able to write a books about her. Shows you have carefully the media has helped to cover up the facts of the assassination.

Another interesting fact is that when The History Channel and other cable channels do reports on the assassination, 90% of them support the Warren Commission conclusion that Oswald did it. The one program which went into the conspiracy part was a British production, but no American made programs are allowed on the air.

And you wonder why for nearly 50 years we cannot get the truth about the crime.

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MID

If you have some time go to your public library and start reading some of the hundreds of books on the assassination. Look in the indexes of these books and see if Madame Nhu's name is listed, which it is not. So here we have a suspect in the assassination according to the Warren commission, yet there is not one author willing and able to write a books about her. Shows you have carefully the media has helped to cover up the facts of the assassination.

Another interesting fact is that when The History Channel and other cable channels do reports on the assassination, 90% of them support the Warren Commission conclusion that Oswald did it. The one program which went into the conspiracy part was a British production, but no American made programs are allowed on the air.

And you wonder why for nearly 50 years we cannot get the truth about the crime.

I don't wonder Mike.

I've had some time, 48 years now, and I'm likely familiar with every "theory" in existence (although hanging around here I might be horrifically surprized to find the contrary...like the Mafia being an extension of the Vatican and Pope Paul VI approving the murder of a Catholic because the murderer was a Catholic!)...

:yes:

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Xpeople

And these early reports on November 22nd showed that he was shot twice from the front--in the throat and in the temple. Some doctors even thought that the bullet wound in the throat came out the back of his head, although it might also have come out his back. We'll never know since the autopsy at Bethesda was tampered with, with no real examination of the throat and back wounds.

He was hit twice from the front, though.

very spectulative ut it is interesting that Oswald could not be trialed for the murder of JFK. There was too little evidence. So why did Jack Ruby kill him?

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tribalactivity

Oswald being CIA says it all. The government tried to cover up CIA involvement and dealings with the Mafia, How could the US people have any faith in a government which operates secretly and illegally if this fact wasn't covered up

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MID

very spectulative ut it is interesting that Oswald could not be trialed for the murder of JFK. There was too little evidence. So why did Jack Ruby kill him?

Actually I don't think the evidence had anything to do with the fact that he couldn't be tried.

he was, as we might recall, dead, olong before a trial could've taken place. There's always in-abstentia, but Lord knows he was convicted in the media already.

Interestingly enough, it all somewhat falls into place, the murder of Oswald. He likely couldn't have been properly tried or convicted as things were, because the chain of evidence had been improperly and illegally disrupted from the afternoon of 11-22-63, when the body of Kennedy was removed from the jurisdiction of Dallas County Texas, the sole responsible party charged with investigating the crime (It wasn't a federal crime then. This was a local homicide case, and it still is). All of the evidence was surrendered before an adequate investigation could take place. No lawyer in his right mind would bring a case. No judge would have heard arguments before dismissing it. Defense attorneys ould've taken this thing apart.

But, we didn't have to see that, because, quite conveniently, the prime suspect was quickly dead.

And why did Ruby do that?

Who knows really.

he said it was to spare Mrs. Kennedy the pain of having to come to Dallas for the trial (at least Ruby knew it was a Dallas County matter).

But what was really behind it? I can't say.

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MID

Oswald being CIA says it all. The government tried to cover up CIA involvement and dealings with the Mafia, How could the US people have any faith in a government which operates secretly and illegally if this fact wasn't covered up

Actually, if it could be shown that Oswald was CIA, I can understand your own speculation following that idea.

But, there's nothing but a dozen different apocryphal and dubious claims and alleged connections, none of which provides any basis for a conclusion on the matter.

And quite frankly, it doesn't appear to me that Lee Oswald was smart enough, or stable enough, to have been of interest to the CIA.

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Mike 215

iT is a fact that when Oswald was in the US army his job was to direct U-2 spy planes over China and Russia as an air traffic controller based in Japan. He was trained in Russian so he could tell the U2 pilots what the Russian were doiing. So he was working for the CIA. He then 'defects' to Russsia and gets married to the duaghter of a high KGB official. He then comes back to the US with his wife with no red tape or problems. There is also evidence he was working for the CIA months before the assassination in New Orleans. Read the books by Jim Garrison, the DA.

Former President Gerald Ford sat on the Warren Commission and wrote a book about it entiteled, THE PORTRAIT OF THE ASSASSIN. We know that Ford was not the brightest kid in the class and his wife was a drunk, but out of the mouths of such people come the truth. On pp24 and 25 of his book he discusses the beginning work of the commission when they were confronted with documents linking him to government agencies which they called a 'rumor'. The members discuss ways to convince the public that this rumor was not true. And so that was the sole purpose of the commission to prove that Oswald was not a government agent.

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TheMcGuffin

very spectulative ut it is interesting that Oswald could not be trialed for the murder of JFK. There was too little evidence. So why did Jack Ruby kill him?

I think Jack Ruby was involved in the entire association. Charles Harrelson, a contact killer and one of the alleged shooters, used to work for him as a bouncer in one of his clubs.

"Charles Harrelson was a contract killer and according to Jack Anderson, whom Nixon tried to have killed, he was involved in the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Harrelson is believed to be one of the gunmen behind the picket fence on the Grassy Knoll. Harrelson was one of the three tramps arrested in Dealey Plaza on 22nd November, 1963, along with Frank Sturgis and Howard Hunt. In 1992, the Dallas Police Department claimed that the three tramps were Gus Abrams, John F. Gedney and Harold Doyle, but the photographic evidence proves otherwise.

In 1968 Harrelson was convicted of the murder of businessman, Sam Degelia, in a contract killing in South Texas. After serving time he was released, and in 1979 Harrelson was paid $250,000 by drug dealers to assassinate Federal Judge John H. Wood. On 29th May, 1979, Wood was shot dead, the first federal judge to be murdered in the 20th century.

When he was arrested for murdering a federal judge he confessed to being one of the gunmen who shot at President John F. Kennedy. He later withdrew this confession, but the admission is more credible than the denial. He received two life sentences for the murder of Wood in a criminal investigation which proved to be more expensive than the investigation in the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.

In 1995 Harrelson attempted to break out of Atlanta Federal Prison. He was recaptured and moved to Florence Administrative Maximum Penitentiary in Colorado.

Charles Harrelson is also a former Jack Ruby Strip Bar Bouncer, and if that doesn't push all the skeptics over the fence, nothing ever will. In retrospect, if Jack Ruby could not rely on the man who committed paid murders for the mob, it is because Charles Harrelson had met his quota for November, 1963."

http://surftofind.com/nixon

This controversial document, which is a xerox of a file from 1947 with an FBI cover sheet from a later period (probably after the JFK assassination) indicates that Jack Ruby worked for Richard Nixon as an informer as early as 1947:

JackRu2.jpg

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MID

iT is a fact that when Oswald was in the US army his job was to direct U-2 spy planes over China and Russia as an air traffic controller based in Japan.

It's actually a fact that Lee Oswald was a Marine. He was trained as a radar operator, and was not an air traffic controller. He directed no flight. He was a radar operator.

He was trained in Russian so he could tell the U2 pilots what the Russian were doiing.

he attempted to teach himself Russian, and not all that well.

And why would he speak to American Pilots in Russian anyway? :blush:

So he was working for the CIA. He then 'defects' to Russsia and gets married to the duaghter of a high KGB official.

I just have to ask, how you derive these declarations based upon the information available? Daughter of a high KGB official?

He then comes back to the US with his wife with no red tape or problems.

How do you know there was no red tape or problems?

And why would their be? He was an American citizen, returning home.

There is also evidence he was working for the CIA months before the assassination in New Orleans. Read the books by Jim Garrison, the DA.

Former President Gerald Ford sat on the Warren Commission and wrote a book about it entiteled, THE PORTRAIT OF THE ASSASSIN. We know that Ford was not the brightest kid in the class and his wife was a drunk, but out of the mouths of such people come the truth.

You know this is now getting pretty vapid. Congressman Ford wasn't the brightest bulb in the lamp, to you, and his wife was a drunk, and you think that they both had something to do with the "truth" of the Warren Commission?

Your comments are now completely irrelevant.

You're going to tell me that On pp24 and 25 of his book he discusses the beginning work of the commission when they were confronted with documents linking him to government agencies which they called a 'rumor'. The members discuss ways to convince the public that this rumor was not true. And so that was the sole purpose of the commission to prove that Oswald was not a government agent.

I'm going to tell you this:

I don't see that any of what you wrote above is relevant to anything.

It's non-fact, and some of it's ridiculous:

Oswald was CIA (I did ask for some substantiation of that (not an invitation to read Garrison's book. It's painful to go through that failed case again).

That was all I asked.

You then called Gerald Ford a dummy and his wife a drunk.

You also said Oswald was doing things during his 4 years in the Marine Corps that he never did**, and you said he was trained in Russian when he was self-taught, and only on a rudimentary level. Also, you stated he married the daughter of a top-level KGB agent.

**You didn't mention what he did do: Got himself in trouble more than once, was court-martialed, and was demoted, leaving the Marine Corps as an E-1...after 4 years.

How does this relate to this discusion?

I take it from context that you don't believe the Warren Commission's scenario?

Well, you've joined many who feel the same way.

But if this is a manner of justifying your belief, it's pretty weak.

However, I think the thread will morph into one fallacious theory after another, with one false and unsubstantiated claim after another.

That's OK, I suppose, but I've always been more interested in the facts of the case rather than a bunch of apocrypha.

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TheMcGuffin

The House Select Committee on Assassinations got little cooperation from the FBI and CIA in its investigations, and in this case certain CIA and Mafia witnesses who might have known certain things about the assassination were murdered or "committed suicide"--or at least died under mysterious circumstances--like Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, and William "King" Harvey.

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Rafterman

iT is a fact that when Oswald was in the US army his job was to direct U-2 spy planes over China and Russia as an air traffic controller based in Japan.

First, he was in the Marines and not the Army.

Second, why would someone in the Army be directing U2 spy aircraft operated by the US Air Force? That's a job for the Air Force controllers.

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frenat

First, he was in the Marines and not the Army.

Second, why would someone in the Army be directing U2 spy aircraft operated by the US Air Force? That's a job for the Air Force controllers.

Not only that but the only time they would talk to an air traffic controller is when taking off or landing. Any other time would be a Weapons Director or Air Battle Manager.

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MID

The House Select Committee on Assassinations got little cooperation from the FBI and CIA in its investigations, and in this case certain CIA and Mafia witnesses who might have known certain things about the assassination were murdered or "committed suicide"--or at least died under mysterious circumstances--like Sam Giancana, Johnny Roselli, and William "King" Harvey.

I always thought Roselli's claims were most compelling.

He had said to someone in prison (if I remember correctly)that he'd fired a shot from a "storm drain" on Elm Street.

I've never seen a storm drain anywhere along Elm street (I've walked it many times). However, a storm drain, should it exist, would've been the place for an assassin. Certainly not anywhere out in the open, like the "grassy knoll". That is lunacy.

But there was, in 1963, a manhole. Today, all that remains is the remnants of a long-ago concreted over dual manhole cover. Near the curb, along the sidewalk, down on the north side of Elm, just prior to arriving at the triple underpass. That manhole corresponds to almost the precise angle that the headshot occurred at, and the location makes the most sense for a sniper (concealed from view).

Now of course, you can't trust the words of a now long dead (very dead) mafioso. You can't trust any of them or there associates to give you much of anything accurate.

but the manhole cover along the north side of Elm, if perhaps that was this "storm drain", or an actual storm drain I never knew was there, is most plausible.

It's something ton talk about, I suppose, but that's about all...talk.

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Mrx99

Jack Kennedy wanted to release all of the information the U.S. government had on U.F.O. s and this did not sit well with the C.I.A. so the C.I.A. had him killed. Since he died no president has been given a security clearance or knowledge of U.F.O.s

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Antilles

I always thought Roselli's claims were most compelling.

He had said to someone in prison (if I remember correctly)that he'd fired a shot from a "storm drain" on Elm Street.

I've never seen a storm drain anywhere along Elm street (I've walked it many times). However, a storm drain, should it exist, would've been the place for an assassin. Certainly not anywhere out in the open, like the "grassy knoll". That is lunacy.

But there was, in 1963, a manhole. Today, all that remains is the remnants of a long-ago concreted over dual manhole cover. Near the curb, along the sidewalk, down on the north side of Elm, just prior to arriving at the triple underpass. That manhole corresponds to almost the precise angle that the headshot occurred at, and the location makes the most sense for a sniper (concealed from view).

Now of course, you can't trust the words of a now long dead (very dead) mafioso. You can't trust any of them or there associates to give you much of anything accurate.

but the manhole cover along the north side of Elm, if perhaps that was this "storm drain", or an actual storm drain I never knew was there, is most plausible.

It's something ton talk about, I suppose, but that's about all...talk.

Well, this topic is up again so I'll ask you about this MID. I've been to Dealey Plaza but short of dodging traffic that wasn't going to stop I've never had a chance to walk along Elm St.

Where you say the manhole cover was, is that anywhere near where James Tague was hit by a flying piece of concrete from the kerb?

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MID

Well, this topic is up again so I'll ask you about this MID. I've been to Dealey Plaza but short of dodging traffic that wasn't going to stop I've never had a chance to walk along Elm St.

Where you say the manhole cover was, is that anywhere near where James Tague was hit by a flying piece of concrete from the kerb?

Walk the sidewalk in front of jhe TSBD, along the road, , past the "grassy knoll, all the way down to the triple underpass. In that sidewalk are the covered remnants of the dual manhole covers that were there in 1963.

Mr. Tague was hit by a fragment in the triple underpass, right at the abutment between the second and third streets that passed under the bridge.

From where I guided you, face the underpass, and turn your head left.

You'll see the distinct underpsses of Elm (immediately in front of you), then Main, then Commercwe streets. Go over to the third underpass, and look in front of the abutment between the second and third underpasses. That's where Mr. Tague was standing. Mybe 80 to 100 FT from the manholes.

:tu:

Edited by MID
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Antilles

I believe JFK's head shot was from the right front so I'll state that now. And I don't have intricate diagrams or anything else to back that up just my observations of Oswald and from having been to Dealey Plaza.

One of Oswald's bullets hit the kerb and that sent a piece of concrete flying at James Tague. That to me was a pretty wild shot - not the shot of a cool, calm and collected killer who then fired a magic bullet. Oswald's Marine records indicate that he was not a top of the line marksman. The Carcano was not an easy rifle to fire and reload. The sniper's nest did not provide an open, easy line of fire.

That tree and that rifle and that magic bullet just do not make any sense.

But another shooter in front of the Lincoln firing at the same time as Oswald does make sense.

I've never heard of the manhole before. The only point I would make is whether or not it was neutralised by the Secret Service before JFK arrived.

It

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MID

I believe JFK's head shot was from the right front so I'll state that now. And I don't have intricate diagrams or anything else to back that up just my observations of Oswald and from having been to Dealey Plaza.

I tjhink all of the people who examined the President and attempted recussitation on 11-22-63 at Parkland Hospital would...no do...agree with you. There is also a famous film of the shooting that makes this clear.

One

of Oswald's bullets hit the kerb and that sent a piece of concrete flying at James Tague. That to me was a pretty wild shot - not the shot of a cool, calm and collected killer who then fired a magic bullet. Oswald's Marine records indicate that he was not a top of the line marksman. The Carcano was not an easy rifle to fire and reload. The sniper's nest did not provide an open, easy line of fire.

We actually have no idea if that fragment that struck Mr. Tague was from the Oswald rifle or another. We also have no evidence that points to Oswald firing that rifle.

That tree and that rifle and that magic bullet just do not make any sense.

But another shooter in front of the Lincoln firing at the same time as Oswald does make sense.

Well...

I don't think anyone disagrees that the "magic bullet" makes no sense. It's impossible.

A shooter in front of the vehicle certainly does. As do other shooters in the Plaza , behind, and in front.

I've never heard of the manhole before. The only point I would make is whether or not it was neutralised by the Secret Service before JFK arrived.

Neutralized?

Most people whould never notice the thing.

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booNyzarC

I believe JFK's head shot was from the right front so I'll state that now. And I don't have intricate diagrams or anything else to back that up just my observations of Oswald and from having been to Dealey Plaza.

I tjhink all of the people who examined the President and attempted recussitation on 11-22-63 at Parkland Hospital would...no do...agree with you. There is also a famous film of the shooting that makes this clear.

I'm afraid that I simply don't understand how people can come to that conclusion from the Zapruder film.

It seems quite obvious to me that he was shot from behind. The entrance wound is also quite clear in this autopsy sketch.

I'm not saying that there couldn't have been some kind of conspiracy, but I've seen nothing which would convince me that he was shot from the front or the side.

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MID

I'm afraid that I simply don't understand how people can come to that conclusion from the Zapruder film.

It seems quite obvious to me that he was shot from behind. The entrance wound is also quite clear in this autopsy sketch.

I'm not saying that there couldn't have been some kind of conspiracy, but I've seen nothing which would convince me that he was shot from the front or the side.

The film rather clearly shows the typically explosive reaction when a bullet strikes a shell-like object (melon, skull, etc...). rapidly increased internal pressure causes the object to blow out at the point of entry instantly, which , combined with the obvious backward motion of the head, and the fact that the doctors who attempted to treat saw the massive flap of skull you see at the entry site, plus a large absence of bone under the torn off skin in the right occiptal / parietal region, bone which was found, in part, in the street at the location of the shooting.

This drawing of a photo allegedly taken at the autopsy shows the entry wound indeed. That big hole with the flap on it. The absence of bone, not visible under the hair flap, is clearly shown in other photos taken during the autopsy where the scalp was reflected. However, the photos are unmarked, without references, and are of such poor qulity that forensic pathologists have laughed at them when the've seen them,

It's pretty good when the chief of neurosurgery says he saw the occipital wound, with brain and cerrebellar tissue oozing from the wound, that the man was shot from the front.

:tu: .

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