JFK Assassination

[MID]

his right shoulder moves up consistent with a force to the head coming from his right side not a full frontal shot. his head was tilted slightly to the left when the shot hit his right temple and the back of his head blew out. this is consistent with a shot ~ 45 degree angle from front right.

you sound a little like Arlen Specter.

A bullet makes a left turn and blows out the back of the skull when it enetered from a rightward direction. Impossible of course, but then again, people bought Specter's idea...

[Little Fish]

you sound a little like Arlen Specter.

A bullet makes a left turn and blows out the back of the skull when it enetered from a rightward direction. Impossible of course, but then again, people bought Specter's idea...

no, the bullet does not "make a left turn".

the bullet hit his right temple and exited the back of his head.

please don't misrepresent what i said.

you know where your right temple is? and the back of your head? what is the angle between the two?

Edited December 10, 2010 by Little Fish

[ian hacktorp]

A bullet makes a left turn and blows out the back of the skull when it enetered from a rightward direction. Impossible of course, but then again, people bought Specter's idea...

This is not as unlikely as you make it sound. If the cartridge used was a small caliber/high velocity type like 5.56X45mm(NATO), it could have easily deflected after hitting the skull. Further, these type of bullets travel with some yaw, meaning they are not traveling perfectly true and will not make a round entrance hole.

A low-mass projectile fired at high velocity would likely NOT maintain a straight-line path after hitting a skull at an oblique angle.

It would definitely cause major damage.

[prole]

basic physics- a force applied to the back of the head will push the head forward. a force applied to the front of the head will push the head back. punch someone in the face and see which way their head moves. since the force of the bullet is greater than the resistance force of his skull, the skull breaks and fragments of skull move in the same general direction as the applied force. that's why a piece of skull landed on the trunk/boot of the car which jackie reached to pick up. there was a massive exit wound to the back of his head.

rocket thrust is a principle based on equalising of gasses under pressure through a nozzle - the same principle as releasing a child's balloon so it whizzes around the room.

there was no rocket inside Kennedy's head.

Kennedy's head was not a balloon under pressure ready to be popped and whizz around the room.

I know who commissioned that Gavin Estler documentary, do you?

basic physics - in principle, however basic physics outside the high school science lab gets very complicated very quickly. You are correct that the bullet entering the back of the head would have pushed the head forward, but due to the immense pressure created by the high bullet velocity and it's small surface area it will punch a relatively small hole (compared to the exit wound) in the back of the skull. Once inside the head the bullet will push all material infront of it forward at great speed, creating great pressure on the front of the skull where it explodes out of the front creating a greater backwards force, to use your own example, like releasing a child's balloon. "Kennedy's head was not a balloon under pressure ready to be popped and whizz around the room.", that is exactly what is was, the increased pressure inside the head created by the bullet pushing through, the explosion at the front of the head milliseconds later meaning a greater backward movement of the head than forward one which would be so small that you would probably not even notice it unless filmed on a very high speed camera.

Your comparison to a punch in the face is like comparing apples and oranges. A punch in the face is a much weaker force delivered over a much greater surface area (the size of your fist). Typically if you punch someone in the face your fist does not travel through their head and explode out the back

I know the Gavin Estler doc was a repurposed US one, however the physics and science in the CG recreation stands up much better than most of the circumstantial at best evidence put forward by the "Multiple shooter" theorists.

Don't get me wrong, I do beleive there was a conspiracy just not that there is any real evidence for more than one shooter. The biggest give away that there was a conspiracy was the fact the Ruby shot Oswald.

[Little Fish]

this balloon pop theory is an attempt to fit the facts to the theory, rather than form a theory from the facts.

how many shots were there?

neck

head

car windscreen

connaly

richochet near underpass

bullet in kerb

bullet in grass

any more?

[prole]

this balloon pop theory is an attempt to fit the facts to the theory, rather than form a theory from the facts.

how many shots were there?

neck

head

car windscreen

connaly

richochet near underpass

bullet in kerb

bullet in grass

any more?

"this balloon pop theory is an attempt to fit the facts to the theory, rather than form a theory from the facts." quite the opposite in fact.

Your list of shots seems to assume that they were all individual shots and it more likely that some of them were caused by the same bullet(s) striking multiple objects/people.

In reality we'll never know what really happeded, or we wouldn't still be discussing this today. If Oswald was a lone wacko then the only person who knows what happened is dead. If he was part of a conspiracy then there maybe still others who know what happened, but given the time that has passed it is unlikely any real new evidence will surface.

At the moment most of the known and provable facts can be explained by a single shooter.

[Superglobe]

This again?

There was one assassin. Mr. Oswald, who was then shot by Jack Rubenstein ("Jack Ruby") because Jack wanted to be a hero.

[TheMcGuffin]

This again?

There was one assassin. Mr. Oswald, who was then shot by Jack Rubenstein ("Jack Ruby") because Jack wanted to be a hero.

As we now know, even some members of the Warren Commission like Ricgard Russell and Hale Boggs were not so sure of that at the time, and were very reluctant to sign the report. Another member, Allen Dulles, had information about Oswald that was not shared with the public for over 30 years that he knew would badly have undercut the report.

[MID]

his right shoulder moves up consistent with a force to the head coming from his right side not a full frontal shot. his head was tilted slightly to the left when the shot hit his right temple and the back of his head blew out. this is consistent with a shot ~ 45 degree angle from front right.

I am seeing alot of interesting interpretations of physics in this thread-to-date.

You're absolutely incorrect.

There is no shoulder mkovement that is concurrent with a blow to the head. I don't know where that comes from.

If the right temple area was an entry and the back of the head "blew out", that would imply a slightly tangenial direction. From the front, with a slight rightward angle.

A 45 degree entry would've blown out the left rear of the head. that did not occur.

It's amazing to me how this keeps going on.

[MID]

Except that back and to the left means that the bullet entered from the back of his head.

Another one!

The new physics I keep seeing here.

this is strikingly similar to the nonsense put forth, in defiance of all knowledge about action and reaction; a crafty, and almost insanely silly idea called the jet effect, which has been debunked many times since it was put forth in the mid-1970s.

Back and to the left means that an impact occured from the rear?

No, back and to the left directly implies that a bullet entereed from the right and frontal direction. The obvuious explosion of the skull we all have seen in the right and forward portion of the skull is also a typical reaction to a missile strike in that area.

Typically the exit wound of a bullet causes much greater damage than the entrance hole (usually a small bullet sized hole). When Kennedy's head explodes at the front it is because the bullet is coming out, not going in. The reason his head goes back and to the left is because of the force of the material ejected (same principle as an Apollo rocket's exhaust plume forcing the rocket in the opposite direction to the stuff coming out the bottom).

And that is precisely the "theory" that I just described. It is largely nonsense.

Your first sentence is generally correct, when soft tissue is the matter we are discussing (say, an entry into the chest and an exit out the back, especially with an expanding projectile, like a hollow point or frangible missile.

With a hollow body filled with tissue (like a melon, or a skull), it is not the same. Certainly an exiting projectile will cause a rent at the point of exit, whuich was described by the physicians who looked at and examined the President at Parkland Hospital (the large opening in the occipital area of the skull, from which was pouring blood and from which oozing of brain tissue was observed).

However, for those who have studied ballistics and impacts of high velocity projectiles into such structures, it is well understood that the entrance into such a body causes extremely high internal pressures, and the entry opening serves as an outlet for the explosive result of such high internal pressure.

In other words, the entrance provides an outlet for the explosive pressure, and the exit behaves as an exit does. The raction of the object so struck is in accordance with the laws of physics in that it moves in reaction to the force applied in the opposite direction. This has been illustrated many times by high speed films of bullets impacting things like melons, and even blocks or globes of ballistic gel. They clearly show the high pressure entrance explosive effect of the impact.

What we are seeing in the Zapruder film is almost certainly the result of a frontal impact into the right temporal parietal region of the President's head, with the same explosive exit of matter from the entrance. The rearward and rapid motion of the skull is simple physics and illustrates the direction from which the shot came.

This new physics is amazing to me now...as it was in the mid 1970s.

[MID]

you know where your right temple is? and the back of your head? what is the angle between the two?

It is not 45 degrees. It is very low. Less than 10...impossible from a 45 degree angle of incidence.

Basic physics again.

[MID]

no, the bullet does not "make a left turn".

the bullet hit his right temple and exited the back of his head.

please don't misrepresent what i said.

it wasn't me who did that.

It was you that said it struck from a position roughly 45 degrees to the president's right.

That would mean the bullet would have to enter and turn left in order to leave the rear of the right occipital area...an impossibility, unless the bullet had some pretty sophistuicated inertial guidance and was unaffected by the resistance of impact!

We've gone over this too many times. Physics is sphysics. It's not rocket science, and doesn't require advanced degrees to understand.

Edited December 12, 2010 by MID

[MID]

And since there are real questions about the JFK autopsy, such as failure to trace the wounds in the back and neck, possible tampering with some of the photographs, the brain "missing", drawings for the Warren Commission that misplaced the back wound, I would submit that we still don't really know how many times JFK was hit, how many shots were fired and from which directions.

I would be inclined to agree with most of that.

Edited December 12, 2010 by MID

[MID]

As we now know, even some members of the Warren Commission like Ricgard Russell and Hale Boggs were not so sure of that at the time, and were very reluctant to sign the report. Another member, Allen Dulles, had information about Oswald that was not shared with the public for over 30 years that he knew would badly have undercut the report.

Then there was Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, who expressed his own doubts about the "official story".

He essentially said they couldn't pin Oswald, and that from what he saw, he felt that the wound to the President's skull was possibly fired from a frontal direction.

He might know, and his input would be somewhat valuable, as Dallas Texas was perhaps the one city in the United States with the highest homicide rate in America in 1963. They'd had 98 homicides in 1963 (not high by today's standards, where some cities have hundreds annually, Like new York and Philadelphia), but it was the highest in America at that time. He'd seen his share of murders.

As well, the doctors at Parkland Hospital (which was in fact the model from which today's "Trauma Centers" were created), those who treated President kennedy in the Trauma Room, all testified to have treated up to 200 gunshot wounds in their tenure at Parkland...

That's a huge amount.

Edited December 12, 2010 by MID

[MID]

.

At the moment most of the known and provable facts can be explained by a single shooter.

What are those known and provable facts?

[Belial]

The only true fact is that Kennedy is dead and we all lost out because of it.

[MID]

This case, and the theorizing over it, gets boring after a while.

It's been nearly 50 years.

Most of the people theorizing don't understand basic physics, read too many of the old CTs out about it, accept lots of them, and don't study enough.

The fact is, and I've said this before, we don't know for sure, and will not...possibly ever.

And exhumation and competent forensic examination of the skull (which still can be done) is necessary to determine with some clarity what the wounds to the President's head actually were, and to clearly document this for the record.

All we'll find out from that is whether the Zapruder film represents what it appears to represent, and whether there is medical-legal evidence of multiple shooters (which a frontal head shot to the President will confirm).

Then, we'll know a conspiracy existed.

Beyond that, we'll never really know who was involved, who actually did this thing.

Everyone involved is most assuredly dead now.

It gets boring listening to so much nonsense put forth...again and again, every November.

The only true fact is that Kennedy is dead and we all lost out because of it.

Bingo!

My position exactly, summarized in a nutshell!

[Little Fish]

It was you that said it struck from a position roughly 45 degrees to the president's right.

no I did not say that. i said the closest part of the picket fence was 45 degrees. you can re-read it in post#186, and the shot could have come further along reducing that angle, so there is no need to disregard to dozens of witnesses who claim there was a shot from the knoll/fence.

you were claiming a shot from the picket fence would have hit the side of his head at 90 degrees.

this is what you said in post 174:

Let me make it clearer for you:

"Back and to the left", as you like to quote, cannot possibly mean the grassy knoll was the origin of the shot.

That's impossible, as the reaction to such a shot would've been completely left.

[Belial]

Why don't you spend more of your time looking to the future and trying to work out something more important? Hes gone, it's unresolved game over...

[Little Fish]

It gets boring listening to so much nonsense put forth...again and again, every November

so don't post then, no one asked you to post nor asked you to read the posts.

[Belial]

Now now, no need for dribbling on your keyboard

[MID]

no I did not say that. i said the closest part of the picket fence was 45 degrees. you can re-read it in post#186, and the shot could have come further along reducing that angle, so there is no need to disregard to dozens of witnesses who claim there was a shot from the knoll/fence.

you were claiming a shot from the picket fence would have hit the side of his head at 90 degrees.

this is what you said in post 174:

One of the things you fail to understand is that I have been right there, many times...in that supposed location of the "badgeman".

It is a position which is nearly directly abeam of the President's position when he received the fatal head wound.

I am fully aware of what I said and what I've observed.

I am also aware of what you, in your ignorance have said:

back and to the left, means the shot came from the front and to the right, which points towards the grassy knoll.

The reaction was primarily back, not to the left. there was no wound to tjhe left rear of that skull.

The position you showed in your photograph was even closer to Mr. Zapruder than that of the alleged shooter on the knoll.

You did state something about the shooter being someplace to the right of that....however, that's where the alleged badgeman was nsupposed to have been, and that would not have been able to produce the wounds observed and those described by the doctors.

You may recall (of course, you likely don't, as you're intent on this so-called grassy knoll impossible shooter) that I said to you:

and (possibly) some location along the north side of Elm, some distance down toward the underpass, or even behind the stockade fencing, at the triple underpass end, perhaps 150 to the west of the Zapruder position.

You're all wet here.

We don't know, save to say that tyour proposed location is impossible. Even 10 or 15 feet to the right doesn't make what we see happen.

so don't post then, no one asked you to post nor asked you to read the posts.

A typical reaction when challenged. If you decide to post, you ask for it.

you can't handle it.

Edited December 12, 2010 by MID

[MID]

Why don't you spend more of your time looking to the future and trying to work out something more important? Hes gone, it's unresolved game over...

I tend to agree, b.

It's long over, and we'll have no answers in the near future.

[Little Fish]

It is a position which is nearly directly abeam of the President's position when he received the fatal head wound.

when you say "directly abeam of the president's position, you are saying that the shot from the picket fence would be at a right angle to the side of the car?

can you tell me the angle between "#2 mud" marker behind the fence and "313" marker in the road, at the bottom of the graphic.

[TheMcGuffin]

Then there was Dallas Police Chief Jesse Curry, who expressed his own doubts about the "official story".

He essentially said they couldn't pin Oswald, and that from what he saw, he felt that the wound to the President's skull was possibly fired from a frontal direction.

He might know, and his input would be somewhat valuable, as Dallas Texas was perhaps the one city in the United States with the highest homicide rate in America in 1963. They'd had 98 homicides in 1963 (not high by today's standards, where some cities have hundreds annually, Like new York and Philadelphia), but it was the highest in America at that time. He'd seen his share of murders.

As well, the doctors at Parkland Hospital (which was in fact the model from which today's "Trauma Centers" were created), those who treated President kennedy in the Trauma Room, all testified to have treated up to 200 gunshot wounds in their tenure at Parkland...

That's a huge amount.

I think that's right. Over the years, I've heard stories about police in Dallas who weren't at all satisfied with the theory of Oswald as the lone gunman or that all the shots came from behind. Certainly the Dallas doctors thought that the wound in JFK's throat was from the front, but for some reason the autopsy doctors were not aware that it was a gunshot wound and did not examine it.

And so on and so on....

Even though Hoover and the FBI went along with LBJ's demand that Oswald acted alone, I read somewhere that he also ordered a very discrete investigation into the possibility of a conspiracy--hedging his bets, probably.