Iraqi prisoner "abuse"

[Talon]

I was talking speculation about the broom handles, not the pics. Although, some of those were proven to be a hoax. I said SOME..not all.

There were some British one's at the time which were fakes... thank god

[Talon]

Why would they make fake abuse pictures?

The one's who made the UK fakes were by anti-war protesters who wanted to delegitimise the presence of Scots, Welsh, English and North Irish in the country. All they ended up doing was give Osma siome UK made propoganda for his group. (I'm not saying they are fake, just giving a reason why someone would do it )

[KindredSpirt4125]

Which ones were proven to be a hoax? Why would they make fake abuse pictures? They want to be in more trouble than they are already in?

The "abusers" weren't the ones that make the fake ones. It was random internet people trying to get a rise out of people.

[babyforrest]

The government officials that saw the photos said that they were sickening and disturbing. I was really into this story, and I got most of my info from CNN. The internet ones, yeah they could be faked. But the pictures that were being discussed had to be real because... where else would they come from? I doubt if the officials got them off of the internet. In addition I saw an interview with the woman that was in the majority of the photos I saw. She admits to doing it. She said she was just taking orders.

[Talon]

The government officials that saw the photos said that they were sickening and disturbing. I was really into this story, and I got most of my info from CNN. The internet ones, yeah they could be faked. But the pictures that were being discussed had to be real because... where else would they come from? I doubt if the officials got them off of the internet. In addition I saw an interview with the woman that was in the majority of the photos I saw. She admits to doing it. She said she was just taking orders.

Oh, I think there's no doubt the one's with England in them are real.

[KindredSpirt4125]

The government officials that saw the photos said that they were sickening and disturbing. I was really into this story, and I got most of my info from CNN. The internet ones, yeah they could be faked. But the pictures that were being discussed had to be real because... where else would they come from? I doubt if the officials got them off of the internet. In addition I saw an interview with the woman that was in the majority of the photos I saw. She admits to doing it. She said she was just taking orders.

Here we go. Ok, I NEVER said the pictures were fake, I KNOW they were real. I was saying it was speculation they used broom handels and such. My point was, if SOME of the pictures were fake, then SOME of the stories about the pictures could be fake too.

[riotkittie]

We hang out our dirty laundry for all the world to see.  We move on.  That's one of the reasons we are hated so much.  We don't hide this stuff like all those Arab countries that are now demanding an apology.

That e-mail irks me on so many levels; it's a wonder I don't have smoke pouring from my nose and ears. The quoted bit especially just makes me want to wrap my hands around the author's neck and squeeze.

It's not so much that we hang our dirty laundry out for all the world to see as it is that we have our laundry hung. A select few have access to such information and _they_ put it out there, not us, not we, but THEY. It's not like the President or the Pentagon or the Department of Defense said ANYTHING about these cases of abuse things UNTIL AFTER the stories and pictures were out there in the media. It's not like they stepped up to the plate and spoke UNTIL AFTER our laundry had been hung.

I don't think we're hated because we move on; I think we're disliked because of the way that we move on -- without acknowledging/admitting our mistakes, without making apologies, without attempting to make amends. Or worse yet, admitting we were wrong, but instead of leaving it there, trying to justify it by pointing fingers and placing blame -- "Yea, we may have mucked it up but you did A,B,C, and D so it's pefectly OK!". This is especially infuriating when people on OUR SIDE are doing A,B,C, and D as well. You want to talk about Jessie Lynch and rape? Let's talk about female Iraqi detainees and sexual abuse at the hands of our MPs >> http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,276...1214698,00.html -- but hey, who cares, they're *Iraqi*, right? If we're hated, it's because a lot of us seem to refuse to realize that there is an inbetween, that not everything is black and white.

I'm not Arab, I'm not Muslim, I probably couldn't find the Mid-East on a map if it were the only area on there, circled it sixteen times and labeled in 72pt print (ok, i could... but that's besides the point) BUT I feel these people deserve an apology. I don't care who you are or what you've done (and _no_, not everyone in these prisons are there because they're accused War Criminals -- some are women, some are children, some are in for things like looting and theft) NOBODY deserves to be degraded, threated, humiliated, beaten, abused, or treated in such a manner. Beyond that, a lack of apology from the US only serves to make it look like we don't care, like we support/condone such behavior -- which only adds to the frustration and anger of the people in the region, which only adds to the fear, the loathing, and the distrust ... which only adds fuel to the fire and gives more people reason to side with the militants.

I could go on and on and on, but won't. Oh wait, I will. You know what really gets me about that mail and the way it attempts to justify a lack of apology? It seems to lump every Arab in one category, totally ignoring that the majority of those who want an apology are _good_ people.

ETA: before anyone calls me a brainwashed, bleeding heart liberal slash moore fan, let me point out i'm actually a conservative

Edited July 28, 2004 by riotkittie

[snuffypuffer]

Yes, an apology, that'll clear everything right up.....

[Dowdy]

put yourself in their shoes...

You're in a prision and have no evidence against you that you did anything wrong. The soldiers that are holding you make you stay awake for 48hr+ on your feet (sleep deprivation is one of the worst torture methods) and these soldiers know the rules of your religion so they force you to break those rules and strip you naked and force you to act in a homosexual way. When you are released how can you go back to your family when you have broken the rules of your religion. In a highly religious society being dead is more acceptable than doing something your religion forbids

would you want an apology

[Dancing_Dumplings]

She admits to doing it. She said she was just taking orders.

ya but come on....shes gotta have more common sence then that...i mean there is a line. yould u rather tell ur bossman that no i cant do that sir because its wrong and sick and twisted. or would u rather humiliate and violate people just cuz the gov. thinks they know something. being tortured like that is a lot diffrent then gettin shot in the head. im not sayin they should be should be shot in the head...its an example. personally i think gettin shot its better then gettin ttortured for weeks at a time.

[Stamford]

The abuse of prisoners of war is against the Geneva Convention, something all civilised countries adhere to.

And I know you pro-war guys and gals will mention the fact that the insurgents don't stick to the Geneva Convention, but we have a moral duty to rise above these people's acts of barbarity.

Should America apologise though, er no, America did not do these things, some Americans did, which is different.

They will be punished, which is only right, but the damage cannot be undone.

Sadly, the photographic evidence is unlikely to be the only incidents of this kind of abuse to have taken place; let's not forget that prisoners have also died during questioning, not only at the hands of US troops, but also British.

[+joc]

In the first place we didn't 'abuse' prisoners. In the second place, we freed a nation under a 'terrorist dictator regime'. In the third place :

it is obvious who hates Bush and who doesn't so I will just say:

BUSH 2004!!!!

Edited July 28, 2004 by joc

[Stamford]

In the first place we didn't 'abuse' prisoners.

Someone did joc and I think that has been backed up by the military courts.

[+joc]

QUOTE 

In the first place we didn't 'abuse' prisoners.

Someone did joc and I think that has been backed up by the military courts.

It is a case of semantics. Taking lewd pictures of terrorists is not "abuse" in my terminology. We didn't cut out their tounges or chop off their hands and fingers like Saddam did. And anyway this is an old story kept alive by a leftist media who hates Bush and hates the war and ........well, you get my point....

[Stamford]

It is a case of semantics. Taking lewd pictures of terrorists is not "abuse" in my terminology. We didn't cut out their tounges or chop off their hands and fingers like Saddam did.

You see joc, I don't get you, I really don't.

Yeah, we didn't cut off limbs, but POW's were abused (sexually), made to perform lewd acts on one another, etc.

It's abuse, just another form.

Put it this way, it certainly wouldn't be the kind of thing I would like to see done to members of my family. Would you?

[nightbird]

you know........how can you defend what was done?

how can you try to justify raping those prisioners and abusing them?

how on earth, whether you like bush the war or not, can you find an excuse to tolerate such behaviour???

its sickening!!!!!!

[wunarmdscissor]

It is a case of semantics. Taking lewd pictures of terrorists is not "abuse" in my terminology. We didn't cut out their tounges or chop off their hands and fingers like Saddam did. And anyway this is an old story kept alive by a leftist media who hates Bush and hates the war and ........well, you get my point.... 

OKAY JOC

Instead of ignoring this question please answer it .

An please no soundbites or "BUSH 2004 "quotes.

The whole problem is that the PRISONERS who were ABUSED were never given a trial, they were never proven to be terrorists and never given any legal representation or chance to defend themselves.

They were physically and mentally abused and humiliated.

Answer this then joc.

Does america have the right to hold a man without CHARGE abuse them without TRIAL and do practically whatever they wish to another human being just because they suspect him of MAYBE knowing something~???????????????????????

Please joc just answer it yes or no.

BTW on a sidenote all these "guilty" men were lreleased without charge.

Interesting eh?.

Joc the fact you are now denying it even happened when even your military has finally goven an actuall amount of cases of abuse it=s just laughable.

[nightbird]

hey joc, seeing as you believe this isnt torture or abuse....does that mean you would like someone to do to you what these soldiers did to these iraqis????

READ IT!!

http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/a...article6527.htm

[Dowdy]

And anyway this is an old story kept alive by a leftist media who hates Bush and hates the war and ........well, you get my point....

this is not an old story. The media has just been told not to publish any more stories that will cause controversy to the troops/war. Why do you think you haven't heard a news story about a dead soldier in weeks?

Soldiers are still dying out there...

[riotkittie]

In the first place we didn't 'abuse' prisoners. In the second place, we freed a nation under a 'terrorist dictator regime'.

Gosh, you're right; what _was_ I thinking? Beatings, torture (including having electrodes attached to genitalia), sexual assault (including rape of female detainees), humilation and threats of violence and/or death directed at a detainee (or his/her family) aren't abuse at all! It's clearly a form of liberation. Heck, some of these detainees have been so fortunate as to have been liberated of their lives!

Wait, why is it that Saddam does these things and he's EVIL, yet when a few of our military men and women act in the SAME MANNER, it's perfectly acceptable to those who condemn Saddam? Not only do some accept, they attempt to _justify_!

I totally agree with the "terrorist dictator regime" thing, though. After all, ALL NINETEEN of those SAUDI highjackers were clearly Iraqis in disguise! Or worse yet, Iraqis in denial! And woo boy, those WMDs just won't stop turning up! Well, I'm sure they won't stop turning up when we finally find them... and by god, we'll find them! And if we don't find 'em, well... hell! We can always go back to bombing aspirin factories! That'll teach 'em

I don't hate Bush, but I do hate some of his policies. I don't hate Bush, but I do hate the fact that an insane amount of lives (be they soldier or civilian, be they American or not) have been thrown away without so much as a second thought in a war that was started under what appear to be false pretenses and unproven claims (wmds + link to 9/11). I don't hate Bush, but I do hate the fact that some who support him seem utterly incapable of anything but following blindly (just as much as I hate the fact that some of his opponents also act like sheep).

[wunarmdscissor]

excellent post riotkittie

[+joc]

Joc the fact you are now denying it even happened when even your military has finally goven an actuall amount of cases of abuse it=s just laughable.

It is your knee-jerk reaction to posts which you don't take the time to read or understand that is laughable.

I never denied it happened....if you don't know what 'semantics' means then please consult a dictionary! It is not my job to teach you the English language.

hey joc, seeing as you believe this isnt torture or abuse....does that mean you would like someone to do to you what these soldiers did to these iraqis????

If the terrorists did that to me instead of chopping my head off, I would be grateful.

The bottom line here folks is that you all seem to take sound bites from the media and blow them out of proportion. Is it impossible for you people to escape the fact that things are seldom as they seem? Can you not intellectually look below the waterline and glimpse the greater iceberg that looms underneath?

I am not going to fight you people who hate President Bush. And I know I can never change your little minds. So I guess I will just be a good Capitalist and go to work and make as much money as I possibly can............

[wunarmdscissor]

In the first place we didn't 'abuse' prisoners. In the second place, we freed a nation under a 'terrorist dictator regime'. In the third place :

LOL i understand the english language pretty well.

read your own post. Just because your making a "smart" comment about the meaning of the word "abuse" doesnt change the meaning of your sentence.

BTW i knew you would answer in the youve just answered.

A typical bushism response.

A soundbite and not even attempting to face up to the content of any of the questions put to you by myself or any of the rest of the people who posed you questions.

Edited July 28, 2004 by wunarmdscissor

[Stamford]

If the terrorists did that to me instead of chopping my head off, I would be grateful.

I can see the scence now:

"Sorrry about raping your butt with this broom handle, still your not dead, so stop your b****ing!"

I never denied it happened....if you don't know what 'semantics' means then please consult a dictionary! It is not my job to teach you the English language.

Really?:

In the first place we didn't 'abuse' prisoners

Still, I'm glad you got your 'Bumper Book of Big Words' for your birthday, joc.

'semantics' is very cool, I'm going to make sure I use it at my 'I hate Bush' meeting tonight!!!!

[Falco Rex]

I just don't understand why there's even a controversy about this. The US Government has apologized for everything else under the sun. From Slavery, to the indians to bombing Japan. I can't really see why this would be so difficult to issue an apology for..

I can understand why the soldiers involved in this scandal behaved as they did, but that's still not a reason for them to escape punishment. And, as has been mentioned before; if the Government is going to claim high moral ground as one the reasons for being in Iraq it's incumbent upon them to behave in a moral way, and not tacitly condone prisoner abuses with silence..

I know an apology isn't really going to "Fix" anything in regards to the Iraq situation; but it may help things from getting even worse. Or it may not. The important part is that at least some effort is made to mend some fences..

Edited July 28, 2004 by Falco Rex