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KindredSpirt4125

Iraqi prisoner "abuse"

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joc

The important part is that at least some effort is made to mend some fences..

Mend the fences with the terrorists? Or mend the fence the Israelies are building?

Or perhaps mend the fences with the French, Germans, and Russians? Or are yo talking about mending fences with the Iraqis? I don't think most Iraqis have a huge problem with anything we have done. tongue.gif

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Falco Rex

Was someone talking about pointless semantics earlier? I could have sworn they were.. tongue.gif I don't believe mending fences with terrorists ever came up; and no; that's not what I meant..

You said you don't "Think" the Iraqis have a huge problem with anything we've done. I say unless you can prove beyond doubt that at least 95% of the Iraqi public is happy with us, then at least some effort towards an apology is a good idea. Not to mention it might just partially help "mend the fences" of World opinion towards the American Government..

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joc

Not to mention it might just partially help "mend the fences" of World opinion towards the American Government..

I don't think World Opinion really matters that much. The Opinions of the World that do matter is The World that is there with us in Iraq and Afghanastan. I don't see the French there and so there opinion is meaningless...same with the Germans and Russians. The Opinion of Canada doesn't mean much either. Although I have some very good friends in Canada, a recent study showed that most of the youth of Canada think America is Evil..........the only thing an apology would do is provide ammo for the left... cool.gif

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wunarmdscissor

I don't think World Opinion really matters that much. The Opinions of the World that do matter is The World that is there with us in Iraq and Afghanastan. I don't see the French there and so there opinion is meaningless...same with the Germans and Russians. The Opinion of Canada doesn't mean much either. Although I have some very good friends in Canada, a recent study showed that most of the youth of Canada think America is Evil..........the only thing an apology would do is provide ammo for the left... 

Ok way to go joc.

By the way quick history lesson for you joc.

You know germanywas involved in a wee dust up called world war 2.

Plans that were drawn up by th UN,....fancy that yeah the UN, mean that Germany can not post troops outside its own borders in a battle situation.

Germany did however allow america an britain to use the numerous bases on their soil we have to loaunch attacks and troop movements.

Did they not teach you that in history or the latter on fox news.?

Its great to see that the average america holds no cares about the rest of the world.

Believe it or not a few of our countries have been around for a while.

We've been taught our history in our schools. You know weve even been taught about our MISTAKES, something that you dont seem to get taught about in America.

This means we can sit back an see exactly where this is leading us. Its all happened before joc just in different times.

What makes you think that your oipnion is more valid that 5.75 billionn other people's.

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Falco Rex

Well, if the World believes that America is Evil devil.gif it would seem to me that the best way to alleviate that would be to prove them wrong with our actions, wouldn't it?

As the Worlds' only superpower we're forced into a leadership role in world affairs. If the example we decide to set is an uncaring one; i.e. telling other countries that "You don't matter" then aren't they justified in thinking ill of us?

I realize that some countries or people will be dissatisfied with us no matter what we do. But that's no reason to stop acting in regards to how we treat the rest of the World. And we shouldn't tolerate abuse in any form. If we condemn this kind of behavior from others, we shouldn't allow our own to engage in it..

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riotkittie

If the terrorists did that to me instead of chopping my head off, I would be grateful. 

Can you not intellectually look below the waterline and glimpse the greater iceberg that looms underneath?

But you see, joc, it wasn't _terrorists_ (or even _suspected_ terrorists) these things were done to. They were normal people originally picked up for minor infractions. And you see, joc, the fact that there are a FEW <insert-string-of-nasty-adjective-here> militants doing horrible things like abducting soldiers + civilians and abusing/killing them does not make what a FEW of our military personel have done acceptable or unimportant by any means.

Seldom what they seem? It's been said that a picture's worth a thousand words, joc... and while these photos say a lot, our leaders have come out and said "YES, this has happened. YES, this is going on". Of course, those press conferences and statements were likely fakes put out by the 'terrorist iraqi dictator regime' and the Illuminati, heh wacko.gif

I don't think it's so much that some of us are blowing things out of proportion as it is some of you can't bear to see the truth at all. To ignore these things, to shrug them off and act like they haven't occurred is a complete injustice -- not only to those who were victimized, not only to the american and iraqi peoples as a whole, but to the vast majority of the men and women in our armed forces who don't do these things.

And, FWIW, blowing things out of proportion is more along the lines of US soldiers forcing a man to jump off of a bridge, which resulted in his drowning death for a curfew violation.

If you can glimpse that iceberg, I can see it AND the sea around it -- which is probably why *I* can say "this isn't right". And FWIW, I'm a Conservative, if I weren't a Libertarian, I'd likely be a registered Republican, and uhm, as it stands, I'd currently cast a vote for Bush over Kerry with absolutely nothing in the way of hestitation any day... but as much as I support our President, I refuse to follow blindly, blow things off and call them "acceptable" when I know that they are not.

ETA: for what it's worth, I can't bring myself to believe that you really believe a word you type laugh.gif

Edited by riotkittie

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riotkittie
excellent post riotkittie thumbsup.gif

thankies ::waiting for the secret service to kick in my door, dub me an internet enemy combatant and ship me off to cuba, wee::

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wunarmdscissor

ETA: for what it's worth, I can't bring myself to believe that you really believe a word you type 

Believe me he does . lol

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KindredSpirt4125

Here is my point...I never ever said that what happened to the prisioners wasn't wrong. But when it's a handful of people that did this, why should AMERICA have to apologize? Because the people that did it are American? Make that handful of people apologize for what they did. It's ridiculous to hold a country responsible for like 10 people. Did Afganistan apologize for Osama or the Taliban that masacured my country...I think not. Why should they? Is Germany a bad country for what Hitler did? no. What I'm saying is make those dirty women apologize for their actions, the rest of us had nothing to do with it.

**And as far as the Geneva Convention rules goes...yeah the Iraqi's are doing a bang up job abiding by those rules aren't they...nick berg whistling2.gif

Edited by crystal3rose

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Stellar
Um, the people who are in our prisons are not the ones we went over there to free. They are war criminals. Why should we apologize for taking stupid pictures of war criminals, when they are raping and beheading our troops?

No... some of them were actually innocent.

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Stamford

**And as far as the Geneva Convention rules goes...yeah the Iraqi's are doing a bang up job abiding by those rules aren't they...nick berg

Doesn't excuse the acts of abuse against defenceless human beings.

Aren't we supposed to be liberating these people from human rights abuses?

Surely this is one of the few arguments that Bush and Blair are still clinging to for the invasion in the first place.

Although, I agree that the US as a country did not force these people to commit these acts.

Edited by Stamford

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Stellar

Ok, I dont think the torture is right, and I think the US should make clear that the torturers will be punished and that torture is unacceptable for the US. It should also be made clear though that the soldiers that did conduct torture were under heavy mental strain from all the enemies who were torturing the coalition soldiers.

What I can not bear is when people label all of what was going on in Abu Graib as torture. Half of it or more isnt even torture to begin with. Scaring a prisoner with a dog is not torture. Humiliation is not torture. Torture is inflicting physical pain, such as one of the soldiers digging through the prisoners leg with a screwdriver.

and these soldiers know the rules of your religion so they force you to break those rules and strip you naked and force you to act in a homosexual way.

That is wrong, just plain wrong.

The soldiers that are holding you make you stay awake for 48hr+ on your feet

Whoaoah, sh**! They're evil huh!? God forbid the US ever LIES to them too ohmy.gif

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CatAstrofix

I don't think America should appologize anything. Whether or not the government of US, or army should appologize, I don't think it makes any difference. It's been too long. Appology shoud have been instant. To think this long if it was wrong to torture or rape prisoners.. well, like I say, it just doesn't matter anymore.

Ofcourse it was terrible and immoral. It's not the kind of handling you'd expect from western world army. Torturing and raping isn't any less of a crime even if it was done by good people.

If an army or armies are supposedly standing and fighting for human rights, but is entitled to decide to whom these rights belong, it doesn't have much credibility or support, not at least on the enemy ground.

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Stellar
The abuse of prisoners of war is against the Geneva Convention, something all civilised countries adhere to.

And I know you pro-war guys and gals will mention the fact that the insurgents don't stick to the Geneva Convention, but we have a moral duty to rise above these people's acts of barbarity.

Should America apologise though, er no, America did not do these things, some Americans did, which is different.

They will be punished, which is only right, but the damage cannot be undone.

Sadly, the photographic evidence is unlikely to be the only incidents of this kind of abuse to have taken place; let's not forget that prisoners have also died during questioning, not only at the hands of US troops, but also British.

I dont care if the enemy tortures the coalition, the coalition is supposed to be morally superior and I expect it to adhere to the geneva convention

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Stamford

I dont care if the enemy tortures the coalition, the coalition is supposed to be morally superior and I expect it to adhere to the geneva convention

Absolutely, Stellar thumbsup.gif

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doomgirl

The soldiers are there representing America, so anything that they do good or bad, reflects on the US, and besides, the US put Saddam in power and gave him money and weapons so if anything I would say they will be saying sorry for a long time to come

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Stellar

I think getting rid of Saddam is a lot better than saying sorry for Saddam...

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riotkittie
But when it's a handful of people that did this, why should AMERICA have to apologize? Because the people that did it are American? Make that handful of people apologize for what they did. It's ridiculous to hold a country responsible for like 10 people. Did Afganistan apologize for Osama or the Taliban that masacured my country...I think not.

America should apologize because America was _responsible_ for the handful of people that did this, America failed to install a system of checks and balances, America failed to keep it's eyes open, America allowed this to occur. FWIW, when I say "America" I'm referring to the government and such, not the people as a whole.

I agree that it's ridiculous to hold a country responsible for what ten people have done -- though, fwiw, the number of soldiers involved in such abuses is well above ten. I also find it amusing that the majority of those I know who say such these days are the same people who had/have no problem holding _A NUMBER_ of Arab/Muslim countries (not just the counties, but the countries' residents as well... and not just the countries + their inhabitants, but those in non-Arab/Muslim countries who appear to be of Arab descent and/or practice Islam) responsible for the act of a mere nineteen.

Why should Afghanistan have apologized for Osama or the Taliban? After all, Osama is from Yemen, the vast majority of the Taliban came from Pakistan, and the vast majority of the Taliban's supporters... well, they weren't Afghani either!

And gosh, didn't America HELP create the problem in Afghanistan by... ohhh, supplying weapons and training to the the Muhajadeen in hopes they'd expell the Soviet forces, and then... ohhhh, totally _ignoring_ the region once the commies called it quits and had gone back home? Didn't America help further the problem in Afghanistan when refusing to take custody of Osama when he was offered to us, *allowing him to slip into Afghanistan* in the first place, heh?

IMO, claiming they _massacred_ this country is, uhm, a bit extreme. Yes, it was a horrible and senseless event, and yes, there was a large loss of life but ... 2,976 lives lost (according to the last count I found) vs 293,855,820 ( http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html ) people currently alive and breathing in the US speaks for itself... and I don't think it says "massacre"

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Stellar

Because the people that did it are American? 

The people who did torture the Iraqis shouldnt even be considered American, since they surely dont know what American moral values are.

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wunarmdscissor

The people who did torture the Iraqis shouldnt even be considered American, since they surely dont know what American moral values are.

ahh but they are, dont worry stellar i have read your previous posts about this.

Trouble is that a few people would actually make this excuse.

An easy way out you see.

Fact is apologies should be issued, no doubt the UK will lead the way in such matters if ANY abuse has been found am sure we will apologise first then america MAY follow hoever the damage is done.

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Erikl
The people who did torture the Iraqis shouldnt even be considered American, since they surely dont know what American moral values are.

ahh but they are, dont worry stellar i have read your previous posts about this.

Trouble is that a few people would actually make this excuse.

An easy way out you see.

Fact is apologies should be issued, no doubt the UK will lead the way in such matters if ANY abuse has been found am sure we will apologise first then america MAY follow hoever the damage is done.

I think that the fact that the soldiers who abused the Iraqi POWs will be trialed and will go to prison show that this case is a local case, and will prove once again that a democratic society is able to judge itself and punish itself without international courts.

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wunarmdscissor

I think that the fact that the soldiers who abused the Iraqi POWs will be trialed and will go to prison show that this case is a local case, and will prove once again that a democratic society is able to judge itself and punish itself without international courts

Yeah hopoefully but by the time it goes through the courts an gets diluted the rest of the world will just believe the soldiers got away with it an therefore the damage is done.

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Erikl

Yeah hopoefully but by the time it goes through the courts an gets diluted the rest of the world will just believe the soldiers got away with it an therefore the damage is done.

Unfortunaly as we all know, democratic bureaucracy make all the legal system extremly slow in democracies... so although it will probably take some time, eventually justice will be serve.

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KindredSpirt4125

IMO, claiming they _massacred_ this country is, uhm, a bit extreme. Yes, it was a horrible and senseless event, and yes, there was a large loss of life but ... 2,976 lives lost (according to the last count I found) vs 293,855,820 ( http://www.census.gov/main/www/popclock.html ) people currently alive and breathing in the US speaks for itself... and I don't think it says "massacre"

Please tell me your kidding. So, to you, the murder of 2,976 (might be acurate) is not a massacure? Not to mention the thousands of people who were injured, and the loss of a piece of mind, and financial support of millions of people who lost loved ones, not to mention the mental unstablility of our entire country. Ok, so whatever, Osama is not Afagnistan. But, did we blame those other countries for what happened to us? No. We blamed the Taliban. Did those countries apologize. no. These are pictures, ok, they destroyed our way of life as we know it. America has tons of other things they should apologize for, but not for taking pictures. The government didn't do it for godsakes. SOME people who happen to be in the army did it. THOSE people were repremanded, and should be MADE to apologize. But as a country, we have no obligation to apologize for THEIR actions. It's ridiculous.

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riotkittie

Please tell me your kidding.  So, to you, the murder of 2,976 (might be acurate) is not a massacure?  Not to mention the thousands of people who were injured, and the loss of a piece of mind, and financial support of millions of people who lost loved ones, not to mention the mental unstablility of our entire country.  Ok, so whatever, Osama is not Afagnistan.  But, did we blame those other countries for what happened to us? No.  We blamed the Taliban.  Did those countries apologize. no.

I never said it wasn't a massacre. What I said was that your statement that they had massacred your country was extreme, and I stand by that.

The vast majority of people in this country remained physically untouched; the number of lives lost (and people injured) vs. total population was minute; finances (IMO) have nothing to do with massacres (nevermind the fact that this country's finaces were in dire straits before 9/11. The attacks didn't cause the problem... though yes, they did add to them). And at NO POINT was this country _ever_ on the brink of defeat. As horrible as it was, the days post-9/11 were one of the LARGEST VICTORIES this country has seen in quite some time. We stood up as one, we cast our differences aside, we stopped worrying about the inane, we reached out to one another, and we were unified. As such... again, in my eyes, that statement was extreme.

To claim that this COUNTRY was massacred is an injustice to those who _were_ massacred. The people in The WTC, the streets below it, and in the Pentagon? THEY were massacred. The firefighters and EMTS and police officers who ran in to save what lives they could and ended up losing their own? THEY were massacred. The people on those planes making last minute calls to say "I love you"? THEY were massacred. The rest of us? This country as a whole? BS.

Yes, some of us lost piece of mind and some of us were mentally unstable, but it's asinine to attempt to put the level of suffering THIS COUNTRY experienced on the same level of those WHO WERE THERE, of THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES, of those WHO LOST THIER LOVED ONES, of those who RUSHED TO THE SCENE to SAVE THE PEOPLE THAT THEY COULD. I knew people who were in the area of the WTC at the time of the attack. I know people who were killed at the site. I know people rushed to the scene to aid in rescue + recovery at the site... and I would never have the audacity to claim that MY suffering, or the suffering of this country as a whole was in any way, shape, or form ... equal to their own.

We didn't blame other countries? Oh, but plenty of us did. For a while the sentiment amongst a lot of people here was "bomb them all and let god sort them out". We didn't blame other countries? Wasn't one of the reasons we were so anxious to attack IRAQ was because we had "proof" (which has yet to surface) that IRAQ was tied to Usama, Al-Qaida *and* the attacks?

These are pictures, ok, they destroyed our way of life as we know it.  America has tons of other things they should apologize for, but not for taking pictures.  The government didn't do it for godsakes.  SOME people who happen to be in the army did it.  THOSE people were repremanded, and should be MADE to apologize.  But as a country, we have no obligation to apologize for THEIR actions.  It's ridiculous.

You know what I find ridiculous? The fact that you have such a problem with this country being asked/expected to apologize and point out that SOME PEOPLE are responsible for these photos, yet seem to think the pictures are perfectly okay because (emphasis added) "THEY destroyed our way of life as we know it". Hi, those detainees in the photos (you know, the same detainees picked up for MINOR INFRACTIONS LIKE LOOTING AND CURFEW VIOLATION? You know, the one who was KILLED after our troops forced him to JUMP OFF OF A BRIDGE?) how exactly did THEY destroy our way of life? FWIW, not even those 19 jackasses on four planes destroyed MY way of life. And you know what, these *aren't* just pictures -- they're instances of physical and sexual abuse, mental torture, etc etc. You want to talk about a way of life being destroyed >> trying being a Muslim female in a Muslim country and oh, being raped. You know that in some places with harsh Islamic law, they KILL WOMEN for that? You want to talk about a way of life being destroyed? Get back to me when someone with a polaraoid's yanked you off the street, held a gun to your head, sexually assaulted you, promised to kill you and/or your family, refused you food and/or water, refused to let you sleep, etc. We can talk about destruction then, and I'll pat you on the back and say "but baby, they're just pictures".

No, the government didn't do it but government employees did... and like it or not, one's superiors bear some measure of responsibility and accountability for the acts committed of those beneath them. The government as a whole may not have done it, but the government allowed it to occur by not keeping tabs on things, by not having a system of checks and balances in place, by not ... oh, let's say doing something crazy like... _letting the red cross/red crescent/other aid & human rights groups in_ whistling2.gif

Oh, and my apologies if any thing i've said comes off as an attempt to attack/insult you, because really, it's not.

Edited by riotkittie

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