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Is Conciousness Necessary for Existence?


Leon Reinhart

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It is odd to relize that is just electric charge that stops your hand from going through it.

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That's a very newtonian view. It begs the question of freewill and predestiny. If reality is clocklike, then arnt we predestined to be having this conversation. Especially if the human conciousness ...,,, choice being an extension of conciousness..... Is nothing more than a natural outcrop of it's parts. Again I relize it must distasteful, but we shouldn't ignore distastful as much as we shouldn't ignore outlandish.

Newton understood the impact of causation, but my view places activity and information as the unit structure of physical existence. The impact of that notion can't be overstated, since the scalability of this structure is limitless, and depending on the imperative expressions involved, more than flexible enough to allow for our human notion of free will to - well, to be free. You don't have true free will anyway. At least, not if your free will includes the desire to vanish into thin air, reduce the size of your corporeal structure, fly through the air unaided by a flying device of some sort, or teleport your molecules across vast distances of time or space. Your free will is limited to what is possible, and possible is fairly well defined within the physical realm that you exist.

What of collective conciousness. If the human mind can be concious, what about a larger structure such as a galaxy, or the observable universe complete with dark matter, energy, and whatever else we havnt discovered. What about a city. Afterall, the human mind is just a complicated structure of cells exchanging, storing, and inturpreting information. The same could be said for say, Los Angeles, or even humanity as a whole.

There is a concept concerning Identity, and the active promotion of achieved Identity, called "holon" that is pretty good at detailing the truth concerning collective identity, and what impact it actually has on the individual aspects that come together to define that collective Identity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy) The nature of the holon prevents a true surrender to the collective when the unique consciousness (as a holon) is integral to that collective. This is because consciousness can only exist as unique and inimitable, for it to be true consciousness. The establishment and preservation of inimitable Identity is the sole mission of consciousness, and this does not allow for that Identity to be supplanted by a collective consciousness, or any other form of dynamic information expression (which is what consciousness is).

If conciousness is an epiphenominon, then it must be possible for similar large scale epiphenominon.

I wouldn't call consciousness epiphenomenal. It certainly isn't a byproduct of some more important effort. I can't properly explain it here (I just published a book that lays this out and it took me 118,000 words) but the sketch out is that consciousness is the culmination of a very deliberate survival response, with many layers of relative achievement that bring activity and information from the unit level to incredible levels of Identity representation. If you're interested, I can private message the link to the book. I think you'd find it an interesting read if nothing else.

If there has been infinite time before, then there has been plenty of time for life and conciousness to evolve on such a grand scale that it encompasses all the universe, interdimentionality, multiverses , if there is such a thing. Might this have happened an infinitey ago, so it's always been that way. We would not need superposition, because the observer is always observing. Wouldn't conciousness be a fundamental part of nature even if the awareness it implys seems vast. In this case the reason we detect superposition would be that thr observer simply has not made the observation yet, because we are the fragmented extention of the observer, and when we choose not to make the observation the observation remained just that nothing observed as a matter of choice. I would be willing to bet yhat we will find nothing in superposition, unless an experimentor has decided to put it there, by conciously choosing not to make sn observation........ Just ideas.

I appreciate your intellectual capacity, and enjoy the ruminations as much as you seem to. There are some notions that I've always felt to be inconsistent with the logical requirements of dependable and redundant organization and physical structure, and an infinity that races out in both directions - before and after - simply violates the tenets of that extremely simple logic. I already detailed the logical issues with multiverses and superposition, and those very brief outlines were picked over very carefully by some who would've loved to "catch" me on them so that they could toss them around and have fun (in a good natured manner, of course) with me over them.

The logic against bi-directional infinity is very sound, as is the logic against multiverses all those other irresponsible attempts at quantum theory. Thanks for the fun.

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No......,,,,,,,, thank you. Pm your book. I'll check it out. I'm always up for more info..... Not that I get all of it. I'll try. I would love to see arguments against infinity. But that is dimentional infinity, what about time infinity? Or better yet causality infinity? I'm curiouse I want to see how some people can come up with something from absolutely nothing. It seems that if there were nothing than something would have to change the nothing for there to be something.... Then that of course would be something. I'm not arguing with anyone, I'm in no position for that, I just want to see. Yes please how do I find your book?

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Newton understood the impact of causation, but my view places activity and information as the unit structure of physical existence. The impact of that notion can't be overstated, since the scalability of this structure is limitless, and depending on the imperative expressions involved, more than flexible enough to allow for our human notion of free will to - well, to be free. You don't have true free will anyway. At least, not if your free will includes the desire to vanish into thin air, reduce the size of your corporeal structure, fly through the air unaided by a flying device of some sort, or teleport your molecules across vast distances of time or space. Your free will is limited to what is possible, and possible is fairly well defined within the physical realm that you exist.

There is a concept concerning Identity, and the active promotion of achieved Identity, called "holon" that is pretty good at detailing the truth concerning collective identity, and what impact it actually has on the individual aspects that come together to define that collective Identity. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holon_(philosophy) The nature of the holon prevents a true surrender to the collective when the unique consciousness (as a holon) is integral to that collective. This is because consciousness can only exist as unique and inimitable, for it to be true consciousness. The establishment and preservation of inimitable Identity is the sole mission of consciousness, and this does not allow for that Identity to be supplanted by a collective consciousness, or any other form of dynamic information expression (which is what consciousness is).

I wouldn't call consciousness epiphenomenal. It certainly isn't a byproduct of some more important effort. I can't properly explain it here (I just published a book that lays this out and it took me 118,000 words) but the sketch out is that consciousness is the culmination of a very deliberate survival response, with many layers of relative achievement that bring activity and information from the unit level to incredible levels of Identity representation. If you're interested, I can private message the link to the book. I think you'd find it an interesting read if nothing else.

I appreciate your intellectual capacity, and enjoy the ruminations as much as you seem to. There are some notions that I've always felt to be inconsistent with the logical requirements of dependable and redundant organization and physical structure, and an infinity that races out in both directions - before and after - simply violates the tenets of that extremely simple logic. I already detailed the logical issues with multiverses and superposition, and those very brief outlines were picked over very carefully by some who would've loved to "catch" me on them so that they could toss them around and have fun (in a good natured manner, of course) with me over them.

The logic against bi-directional infinity is very sound, as is the logic against multiverses all those other irresponsible attempts at quantum theory. Thanks for the fun.

I Have to ask you. It seems like you were talking about how conciousness came about as a survival response.... So a process of natural selection. There seem to be many experiences that have no real purpose in natural selection, but yet seemed to be laced with meaning by the very nature of the experience. Example: the feeling of floating during an OBE. It seems to be entirely what one would expect if indeed a spirit body was leaving the body. Why would that feeling be there as oposed to say some other random feeling. ( I dont buy the cultural conditioning response)

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I Have to ask you. It seems like you were talking about how conciousness came about as a survival response.... So a process of natural selection. There seem to be many experiences that have no real purpose in natural selection, but yet seemed to be laced with meaning by the very nature of the experience. Example: the feeling of floating during an OBE. It seems to be entirely what one would expect if indeed a spirit body was leaving the body. Why would that feeling be there as oposed to say some other random feeling. ( I dont buy the cultural conditioning response)

That feeling is there because your mind is telling you thats what youre doing id guess.

Its like when you feel youre swimming in your dream. Why would you feel that? Because youre mind is telling you what it feels like, from experience or interpretation. It may be wrong in its interpretation though.

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Can't be. People usually don't float, so they can't have any experiences with it to draw from. It does not feel

like falling either. More like an anchoring from the chest. Furthermore, people experienceing obes spontaniously don't even know what is happening, some never would have considered themselvves a candidate, some are hardcore sceptics. Why would they experience the sensation. How and why would natural selection create such a specific experience.

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Can't be. People usually don't float, so they can't have any experiences with it to draw from. It does not feel

like falling either. More like an anchoring from the chest. Furthermore, people experienceing obes spontaniously don't even know what is happening, some never would have considered themselvves a candidate, some are hardcore sceptics. Why would they experience the sensation. How and why would natural selection create such a specific experience.

Then how have i simulated that experience in my dreams seeker? Explain.

Natural selection? Who said natural selection has anything to do with how our modern mind percieves things when dreaming?

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I Have to ask you. It seems like you were talking about how conciousness came about as a survival response.... So a process of natural selection. There seem to be many experiences that have no real purpose in natural selection, but yet seemed to be laced with meaning by the very nature of the experience. Example: the feeling of floating during an OBE. It seems to be entirely what one would expect if indeed a spirit body was leaving the body. Why would that feeling be there as oposed to say some other random feeling. ( I dont buy the cultural conditioning response)

Survival expressions are not limited to natural selection (competition, to be more broad in description). Consciousness is the survival expression called Identity, and is akin to the corporeal imperative procreation, which is a form of survival via representative identity. The issue is that activity (one of only two forms of physical existence) has no form of survival besides representative Identity, and after the extended enterprise via organized matrixing, the only method of representative Identity survival is to create a new corporeal organization with vestages of the parent organization's identity as integral to the Identity of the new organization. We call this the "biological imperative" and it's why we have kids and why they'll have their own kids. It's fundamental to what it means to be a corporeal molecular organism.

When the corporeal brain generates thought (as intent or simple reaction), each burst of generation contains the contextual identity of the corporeal being that generated it. In this case, the "offspring" is information, and information (like any fact of occurrence) is eternal as a physical representation of what occurred. That generation of representative consciousness occurred, and the factual represenation of that consciousness - including a full expression of it as eternal consciousness, will always exist as dynamic information, and this is why the brain developed within the corporeal whole of the auto-animate organism. The entire corporeal matrix is driven to survive, and information is the only physical thing that is eternal. It's the ultimate survival achievement for the unit of activity, as the representaive Identity it achieves as part of the corporeal whole is then transformed into permanent physical existence as Identity representing information. It may seem a bit counterintuitive, but logically it's airtight, and explains why the auto-animate corporeal whole developed from simple elemental molecular existence.

As far as the human version of this scenario, that's a whole different configuration, and you'd have to buy my book for that information. To find out where and how "God" fits into all of this, sitting down with the book and a notepad would be encouraged. It can get pretty dense once you start factoring the interconnections and the imperative expressions driving the whole thing.

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I will do that. I'll probabably have to read it several times. So the spirit body is sort of a manifestation of the bilogical imperative to survive or reproduce? I have always considered that the human soul could be considered information instead of some odd sort of energy. I'm not sure if in the end if would matter. I guess the question every one is trying to answer is does that information survive byond the physical body?

Anyway I'll get the book

Thanks.

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I will do that. I'll probabably have to read it several times. So the spirit body is sort of a manifestation of the bilogical imperative to survive or reproduce? I have always considered that the human soul could be considered information instead of some odd sort of energy. I'm not sure if in the end if would matter. I guess the question every one is trying to answer is does that information survive byond the physical body?

Anyway I'll get the book

Thanks.

Thanks.

By the way, information can't ever be dismantled. A fact is a fact is a fact, and that's a fact.

The corporeal human brain only exists to generate human Intellect, so yes, that information survives the body. However, there is a very specific reason why the human brain generates information - as opposed to why the non-human brain of a (let's say) cat or dog does the very same thing. In the case of a non-human brain, the generated information is the survival strategy for the entire corporeal matrix; with that matrix the end game that requires Identity preservation. Not so with the human brain, and this is why human beings end up being the way they are (not driven by instinct, for instance). Freud had a real insight when he invented his Id-SuperEgo-Ego tug of war hypothesis. He may have been responding to empirical data, and missed the physics behind it all, but he did capture the essence of what occurs within the corporeal human brain. In fact, a lot of what has become traditional thinking was the result of bumping up against this premise over the centuries.

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I will do that. I'll probabably have to read it several times. So the spirit body is sort of a manifestation of the bilogical imperative to survive or reproduce? I have always considered that the human soul could be considered information instead of some odd sort of energy. I'm not sure if in the end if would matter. I guess the question every one is trying to answer is does that information survive byond the physical body?

Anyway I'll get the book

Thanks.

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