Hamas admits 600-700 militants were killed

[Knight Of Shadows]

lol michael actually you're very mistaken here

the majority of people knows about palestine people

and they know about israel terrorism in the area

it's you who giving excuses to israel terroist acts against

other people ... we can all see clearly who's erasing who

it's israel trying to erase all the palestinies from the land

just because you don't believe this doesn't mean that " no one "

does ... your personal thoughts of no concern or worth to me

... i speak of facts unlike you .. you speak personal opinion

and by the way this is discussion forums you don't ask people to stop

because they disagree with you .. jesus

and daniel ohhh please .. the land never belonged to the jews

and no thank you am not interested in link that says

arab are loving war by their nature and they're fierce by nature

what you fail to reliaze is arab is people like every one else

they're not what you fantasy as people carrying bombs and guns every where

so knock it off with arabs alright coz you know nothing of us

and there you go with arab want to kill jews and all arabs love war

it's coming from a person who never been in arabic country

so give me abreak .. how about we don't speak to each other ?

i tend not to like to talk with people who have such opinion about us

[ships-cat]

Third opportunity for the naysayers to give an answer if they have one...

Compare and contrast the following...

1. The Haaretz Headline and lead paragraph

2. Page 90 of Goldstone

3. Precisely what Fathi Hamad said.

If these people cannot even be bothered to do that then they are just propogandists.

Nope.. sorry.. can't see what you're driving at. Is it possible that my PDF version of the Goldstone Report has different page numbers to yours ?

Could you give us the relevant paragraph numbers instead ? (they number the paragraphs to avoid precisely this sort of confusion).

meow purr

[danielost]

lol michael actually you're very mistaken here

the majority of people knows about palestine people

and they know about israel terrorism in the area

it's you who giving excuses to israel terroist acts against

other people ... we can all see clearly who's erasing who

it's israel trying to erase all the palestinies from the land

just because you don't believe this doesn't mean that " no one "

does ... your personal thoughts of no concern or worth to me

... i speak of facts unlike you .. you speak personal opinion

and by the way this is discussion forums you don't ask people to stop

because they disagree with you .. jesus

and daniel ohhh please .. the land never belonged to the jews

and no thank you am not interested in link that says

arab are loving war by their nature and they're fierce by nature

what you fail to reliaze is arab is people like every one else

they're not what you fantasy as people carrying bombs and guns every where

so knock it off with arabs alright coz you know nothing of us

and there you go with arab want to kill jews and all arabs love war

it's coming from a person who never been in arabic country

so give me abreak .. how about we don't speak to each other ?

i tend not to like to talk with people who have such opinion about us

it did before you took it from them.

[Knight Of Shadows]

oohhh i took it now ?

ignored

[Erikl]

Oh come down Knight. The existence of Jews in the region is well proven by extensive archeology and historical records by virtualy every significant source in the last 3200 years. So if your version of history degates this, it simply means your version is wrong. Judging from the fact that you live in a dictatorship, and that somehow in a magical way the history you were tought matches and validates the ideology of your country's regime, while the rest of the world knows a different time line, pretty much rest my case.

[questionmark]

Oh come down Knight. The existence of Jews in the region is well proven by extensive archeology and historical records by virtualy every significant source in the last 3200 years. So if your version of history degates this, it simply means your version is wrong. Judging from the fact that you live in a dictatorship, and that somehow in a magical way the history you were tought matches and validates the ideology of your country's regime, while the rest of the world knows a different time line, pretty much rest my case.

I think I will disagree with 3200 years, but could concur with 2600 years. Then again, what is 600 years compared to the eternity?

Now, if you want to claim that people of Semitic origin lived there for 3200 years I will have to agree (in fact I would claim at least 2000 years longer).... then again, most Arabs are of Semitic origin.

Your error is confusing the non existent "Race of the Jews" (which happens to be a piece of bull made up by Nazi eugenicist) with the real existent "Religion of the Jews". And founded archeological evidence for the Jewish Religion dates from about 600 BC and not from 1200 BC (which is an assumed date based on Bible Archeology).

[Knight Of Shadows]

i'll have to ask you to stop bringing my country topic in every

topic we talk erikil specially since i told you before

this history not only taught in syria

do not shift tides by claiming things about my country

like your friend pesdu used to

arabs existed before jews in fact jews are decended from arabs

as much as they'd deny it .. that's fact like it or not

truth always hurt

we have our own historians who did really good job at this

and i buy it more than the crap that claims israel has the right

to the land ... again back to the canaanites .. who are arabic

tribe and known to be the " first " who lived in palestine

this fact can't be denied

unless your fact twisted history claims they're not arabs

arabs existed AGES before islam which some people hold a thought

that arabs existed when islam did

so don't claim your history as right and mine as wrong

coz it's " our " history .. we know better than some wanna-be-smart

western historian might know about it .. coz it's simply about us

like british people know about their history better than say ..

japanese people

and chinese people know about their history better than turkish

it's as simple as that but i reconize there was alot of attempts

to erase the palestine arabic identy by israel

and invent their ancient nation in the land .. before canaanites ?

no chance in hell

there's a number of books on the topic so plz before discussion

this further have some background on the topic and see both

sides of the tales so far you only judge by one side

however i know israeli side of the tale with is big pile of crap

and lack facts

[Erikl]

I think I will disagree with 3200 years, but could concur with 2600 years. Then again, what is 600 years compared to the eternity?

Now, if you want to claim that people of Semitic origin lived there for 3200 years I will have to agree (in fact I would claim at least 2000 years longer).... then again, most Arabs are of Semitic origin.

Your error is confusing the non existent "Race of the Jews" (which happens to be a piece of bull made up by Nazi eugenicist) with the real existent "Religion of the Jews". And founded archeological evidence for the Jewish Religion dates from about 600 BC and not from 1200 BC (which is an assumed date based on Bible Archeology).

Erm, actually - no, you are dead wrong. I couldn't care less about dates as estimated by the Bible or other religious fanatics. I'm talking about hard core archeology. The first time the name "Israel" is recorded in history, is in the Merneptah Stele, which records Pharaoh Merneptah military campaign in Canaan, at around 1208 BCE. He mentions his victories over a nation he calls Israel. Then you have Mesha Stele, from 840 BCE, written in Moabite which was virtually identical to Biblical Hebrew, and records wars against the northern kingdom of Israel. It also mentions the house of David. Then you have the Tal Dan Stele from around the 8th century BCE, written in Aramaic, details military campaign of Aramean king Hazael against Israel and the House of David (Judea).

Then again, from the 8th century, you have Assyrian cuneiforms extensively documenting their conquest of the middle east. Sargon, the king of the Assyrians, records his first campaign on the walls of the royal palace at Dur-Sarraku (Khorsabad):

" In my first year of reign *** the people of Samaria *** to the number of 27,290 ... I carried away. Fifty chariots for my royal equipment I selected. The city I rebuilt. I made it greater than it was before. People of the lands I had conquered I settled therein. My official (Tartan) I placed over them as governor."

Then you have the Babylonian Chronicles, from 597 BCE, detailing the seige and fall of Jerusalem and the kingdom of Judah by the Babylonians:

" In the seventh month (of Nebuchadnezzar-599 BC.) in the month Chislev the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti he laid siege to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adar (16 March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jeconiah) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent (them) forth to Babylon"

And ofcourse onward we have the Cyrus Declaration, Greek documentations etc. Should I continue, or are you convinced?

But wait - what's that? no Arabic record of any sort of these events.... I wonder why.... weren't all of these people Arabic?

[questionmark]

Erm, actually - no, you are dead wrong. I couldn't care less about dates as estimated by the Bible or other religious fanatics. I'm talking about hard core archeology. The first time the name "Israel" is recorded in history, is in the Merneptah Stele, which records Pharaoh Merneptah military campaign in Canaan, at around 1208 BCE. He mentions his victories over a nation he calls Israel. Then you have Mesha Stele, from 840 BCE, written in Moabite which was virtually identical to Biblical Hebrew, and records wars against the northern kingdom of Israel. It also mentions the house of David. Then you have the Tal Dan Stele from around the 8th century BCE, written in Aramaic, details military campaign of Aramean king Hazael against Israel and the House of David (Judea).

Then again, from the 8th century, you have Assyrian cuneiforms extensively documenting their conquest of the middle east. Sargon, the king of the Assyrians, records his first campaign on the walls of the royal palace at Dur-Sarraku (Khorsabad):

" In my first year of reign *** the people of Samaria *** to the number of 27,290 ... I carried away. Fifty chariots for my royal equipment I selected. The city I rebuilt. I made it greater than it was before. People of the lands I had conquered I settled therein. My official (Tartan) I placed over them as governor."

Then you have the Babylonian Chronicles, from 597 BCE, detailing the seige and fall of Jerusalem and the kingdom of Judah by the Babylonians:

" In the seventh month (of Nebuchadnezzar-599 BC.) in the month Chislev the king of Babylon assembled his army, and after he had invaded the land of Hatti he laid siege to the city of Judah. On the second day of the month of Adar (16 March) he conquered the city and took the king (Jeconiah) prisoner. He installed in his place a king (Zedekiah) of his own choice, and after he had received rich tribute, he sent (them) forth to Babylon"

And ofcourse onward we have the Cyrus Declaration, Greek documentations etc. Should I continue, or are you convinced?

But wait - what's that? no Arabic record of any sort of these events.... I wonder why.... weren't all of these people Arabic?

If they ate pork, which is the evidence of all archeological findings until about 600 BC, they were not Jews, no matter what you call them.

That there was a Pharaoh who had a fight with the people of ISIR (notice, not Israel, Merneptah Stele) does not prove otherwise, nor does the alleged reference to the house of David on the Mesha Stele (which more scholars dispute than confirm) . As far as the Babylonians, true, they conquered what now is Jerusalem, but evidently fought against the Egyptians when occupying the region. Which again is diametrically opposed to the biblical legends that some try to pass as history.

Then we have the release of captivity, which would have finally be evidence of the Israeli country, if it would not have the little problem hat Cyrus the Great sent his son in law along as governor of Yudah. The land after that passed right to Alexander the Great when he defeated the Persians (or do you remember any battle between Jews and Macedonians?) which means it continued being a Persian province until that point.

Now, there is a time when Israel actually could have been a independent entity, or should I say Land not Occupied? That is sometime between Alexander's death and the final conquest of Syria in 63 BCE by Pompey. And I am not saying that because we have evidence other than the Bible/Torah saying so, we just have no evidence as to the contrary.

BTW, that there are references to Yahweh in history has nothing to do with the biblical God. Yahweh was the weather god of some nomadic tribes long before Judaism dawned to history, and besides Yahweh they worshiped another dozen or so deities. Then again it could be that he got "promoted" during the Babylonian captivity.

Edited November 16, 2010 by questionmark

[MichaelW]

lol michael actually you're very mistaken here

the majority of people knows about palestine people

and they know about israel terrorism in the area

it's you who giving excuses to israel terroist acts against

other people ... we can all see clearly who's erasing who

it's israel trying to erase all the palestinies from the land

just because you don't believe this doesn't mean that " no one "

does ... your personal thoughts of no concern or worth to me

... i speak of facts unlike you .. you speak personal opinion

and by the way this is discussion forums you don't ask people to stop

because they disagree with you .. jesus

You speak of facts? What facts would these be? I haven't seen any. Not one. Who are the "majority" of the people? The Arabs? You make no sense. Who is "we'? The Arabs again?

Do not lecture me on the difference between facts and personal opinion. Because obviously, you haven't understood the difference.

[danielost]

If they ate pork, which is the evidence of all archeological findings until about 600 BC, they were not Jews, no matter what you call them.

That there was a Pharaoh who had a fight with the people of ISIR (notice, not Israel, Merneptah Stele) does not prove otherwise, nor does the alleged reference to the house of David on the Mesha Stele (which more scholars dispute than confirm) . As far as the Babylonians, true, they conquered what now is Jerusalem, but evidently fought against the Egyptians when occupying the region. Which again is diametrically opposed to the biblical legends that some try to pass as history.

Then we have the release of captivity, which would have finally be evidence of the Israeli country, if it would not have the little problem hat Cyrus the Great sent his son in law along as governor of Yudah. The land after that passed right to Alexander the Great when he defeated the Persians (or do you remember any battle between Jews and Macedonians?) which means it continued being a Persian province until that point.

Now, there is a time when Israel actually could have been a independent entity, or should I say Land not Occupied? That is sometime between Alexander's death and the final conquest of Syria in 63 BCE by Pompey. And I am not saying that because we have evidence other than the Bible/Torah saying so, we just have no evidence as to the contrary.

BTW, that there are references to Yahweh in history has nothing to do with the biblical God. Yahweh was the weather god of some nomadic tribes long before Judaism dawned to history, and besides Yahweh they worshiped another dozen or so deities. Then again it could be that he got "promoted" during the Babylonian captivity.

now your mixing up religous people with a tribe. the eating of pork was not forbidden until they left egypt under moses. so the tribe of jacob(isreal) could very well have been eating pork. i do not know how many people went into egypt, but i assume all but the youngest were married and had children before they did. if they had split up as lot and abraham did then you may well have had a tribe of called jews eating pork.

and although there are many jews today who are not of that tribe, there are many who are as well.

as for knight his bad history can be forgiven, since he is one a fanatic and two been taught what the arabs of the region want each other to believe. but the name arab tells you exactly where they came from.

[Erikl]

questionmark, I explain to you that I didn't mean nor do I intend to prove or disprove the Bible. And this is what you seem to be thinking - I don't know, because you seem to think this is the only thing Jews prompted when asked what's their connection. The Merneptah Stele is translated by most scholars as Israel, and is thought to mean Israel. Also the fact that it means "a foreign nation" rather than a city or a place, kind of give this interpretation more credit. And least but not last - the Mesha Stele and the Tal Dan Stele, including the Assyrian cuneiform - are all, according to archeology, reffering to Israel specifically, and if you may - even mention Israeli kings from the Bible.

Pork eating doesn't interest me - Jews are eating pork today. Heck - I eat pork. Does that mean I'm not Jewish? remember that the Bible you so seem to be obssesed with mentions that Israelites were still practicing Canaanite polytheism up to the Babylonian captivity and began embracing Hellenistic polytheism as soon as the Greeks showed up in the 4th century BC.

This becoming quite hilarious... you now seem to attempt to refute hard core evidence for Israelite presence, just to prove your political ideology.

[questionmark]

now your mixing up religous people with a tribe.

There was no single tribe, at least not one that can be proven historically. By the time we have historic evidence of the Jews they were already a multiethnicity, ranging from Northern to African archetypes.

[questionmark]

This becoming quite hilarious... you now seem to attempt to refute hard core evidence for Israelite presence, just to prove your political ideology.

I said it many times before, except calling its establishment an error I have no problems with Israel (though a lot with Israelis behaving like barbarians).

And it is not as hillarios as you think, most of our assumed history of the region comes from the Bible/Torah. But once you look for evidence it comes down to zilch. You really have to twist the existing to fit it. Once you look for evidence outside the bible you come up with about 600 BC for the appearance of Jews (as organized religion) and a questionable Nation called Yudah for about 250 years (~300 BC - 63 BC), that might have been a Macedonian or Egyptian province.

Were there people around there? Yep, at least for the last 15000 years, but all small nomad tribes until about 3000 BCE, and the people who lived there later, Hitites, Canaanites, Phoenicians, held the place always for a short time until it was occupied by Egypt, Babylon, Persia, Macedonia or Rome . In fact the Roman and Egyptian "occupations" lasted longer than any other nation ever existed there as independent (not tributary) entity.

The only historically briefed reason to put Israel in Palestine was a religious one, namely the presumed existence of Salomon's Temple in Jerusalem and the historically proven existence of Herod the Great's Temple destroyed by the Romans. And that, if you ask me, is a little thin.

Now, if the Palestinian faction on this forum are thinking that I am blowing their horn they could not be more wrong. At the time of the creation of Israel it was a league of Nation's mandate territory administered by the British, therefore a territory without a state . So the United Nations (as legal successor of the League of Nations) had every right to separate it into a state and give the remainder to the claimant Arab nations. To the contrary of the legends it was not Israelis kicking anybody out but Palestinians who left in fear (at least until '67, after that it changed a little). So don't count me to the list of those who would like to push the Jews into the sea, to the contrary, if push comes to shove I'd volunteer for the IDF (despite my age).

[Erikl]

There was no single tribe, at least not one that can be proven historically. By the time we have historic evidence of the Jews they were already a multiethnicity, ranging from Northern to African archetypes.

This is utter nonsense. Genetic studies have proved that Jews originate from the Middle East, and have accepted very few converts during their diaspora years. The vast majority of Roman Jews were Hellenistic and probably accepted Christianity, hence why it doesn't show up in the Jewish genes pool.

The evidence I put here clearly states that the nations of the region recognized, fought against, and had relations with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This is in terms with the Jewish history. You choose to ignore it, because it doesn't suites your ideology.

[questionmark]

This is utter nonsense. Genetic studies have proved that Jews originate from the Middle East, and have accepted very few converts during their diaspora years. The vast majority of Roman Jews were Hellenistic and probably accepted Christianity, hence why it doesn't show up in the Jewish genes pool.

The evidence I put here clearly states that the nations of the region recognized, fought against, and had relations with the kingdoms of Israel and Judah. This is in terms with the Jewish history. You choose to ignore it, because it doesn't suites your ideology.

yep:

What do the above have in common? All Jews. But certainly not their race.

[Erikl]

The only historically briefed reason to put Israel in Palestine was a religious one, namely the presumed existence of Salomon's Temple in Jerusalem and the historically proven existence of Herod the Great's Temple destroyed by the Romans. And that, if you ask me, is a little thin.

That's inaccurate, I'm afraid. Although the religion called Judaism can be historicaly dated only to after the Babylonian captivity, the people who created it can be date to atleast 1208 BCE. My own personal theory is that the Israelites were simply a mixture of Mesopotamian Habiru (hence why their dialect of Canaanite language - Hebrew - was heavily inluenced by Akkadian), Canaanites and some refugees from Egypt. All came together into a group of 12 tribes which eventualy united into a kingdom. I don't know if Solomon or David were real people, but I do know that the Kingdom of Israel and the Kingdom of Judah were here, and are recorded in history since atleast the 9th century BCE. That's 3000 years ago. Also the Egyptian Stele I mentioned earlier, proves that there was a nation called "Israel" 200 years before that, puting the records for the existence of Israelites here to some 3200 years. I don't claim they were practicing modern Judaism - no one except for ultra-orthodox Jews who believe their version of Judaism is the same since Moses, thinks that, but there is recorded evidence to connect those ancient kingdoms to the exact same people who's religion later on developed into Judaism. Heck, all religions evolve - Christianity did, Islam did, and Judaism as well. For example, the Jews from 2000 years ago ate poultry with dairy, and the Samaritans and non-rabbnical Jews still do - but modern Jews since at least the 4th AD century do not. Does that mean that Judaism didn't exist until the 4th century AD?

Also, Jewish center of life was the Holy Temple, until 70 AD. Then Pharisee Judaism that didn't revolve around sacrificing lambs in Jerusalem became the dominant sect. Does that mean that Jews didn't exist before 70 AD? Or that Jesus wasn't a Jew?

History records the existence of a kingdom called Israel here from since atleast 3000 years ago.

[questionmark]

History records the existence of a kingdom called Israel here from since atleast 3000 years ago.

And archeology disputes that.

[Erikl]

And archeology disputes that.

Today, among archaeologists, Samaria is one of the most universally accepted archaeological sites from the biblical period[13] At around 850 BCE, the Mesha Stele, written in Old Hebrew alphabet, records a victory of King Mesha of Moab against king Omri of Israel and his son Ahab.[14]

That's from the wikipedia article about the Kingdom of Israel. You continue to ignore the extensive archeological evidence I presented here.

Also, I seem to have fallen after your disinformation, atleast regarding the absence of pig bones in sites in ancient Canaan. From wikipedia, I present to you the following paragraph:

The first record of the name Israel occurs in the Merneptah stele, erected for Egyptian Pharaoh Merneptah c. 1209 BCE, "Israel is laid waste and his seed is not."[15] William Dever sees this "Israel" in the central highlands as a cultural and probably political entity, well enough established to be perceived by the Egyptians as a possible challenge to their hegemony, but an ethnic group rather than an organised state.[16]

...

Archaeologists and historians see more continuity than discontinuity between these highland settlements and the preceding Late Bronze Canaanite culture;[18] certain features such as ceramic repertoire and agrarian settlement plans have been said to be distinctives of highland sites,[19] and collar-rimmed jars and four-roomed houses have been said to be intrinsically "Israelite," but have also been said to belong to a commonly shared culture throughout Iron I Canaan.[20] While some archaeologists interpret the absence of pig bones from the highland sites as an indicator of ethnicity,[21] this is not certain.[22] Ancestors of the Israelites may have included Semites who occupied Canaan from the beginning, new settlers, disaffected Habiru, escaped slaves from Egypt, traveling companions of the Sea Peoples, and refugees from the Canaanite disturbances.[23] McNutt says, "It is probably safe to assume that sometime during Iron Age I a population began to identify itself as 'Israelite'", differentiating itself from the Canaanites through such markers as the prohibition of intermarriage, an emphasis on family history and genealogy, and religion

History of ancient Israel.

So we have archaelogy evidence that sometimes between 1200-1000 BCE, there is absence of pig remains in the region.

The word "Israelite" derives from the Biblical Hebrew ישראל (Standard: Yisraʾel; Tiberian: Yiśrāʾēl). The Hebrew Bible etymologizes the name as from yisra "to prevail over", and el, "god, the divine".[1][2] The ethnonym is attested as early as the 13th century BCE in an Egyptian inscription. The eponymous biblical patriarch of the Israelites is Jacob, who was given the additional name "Israel" after wrestling with an angel. Jacob demands a blessing from the angel which he eventually receives, hence "prevailing over the divine." (Genesis 32:28-30)

...

The name Hebrews is sometimes used synonymously with "Israelites". For the post-exilic period, beginning in the 5th century BCE, the remnants of the Israelites came to be referred to as Jews, named for the kingdom of Judah. This change is explicit in the Book of Esther (4th century BCE).[4] It replaced the title children of Israel.[5]

Although most literary references to them are located in the Hebrew Bible, there is also abundant non-biblical archaeological and historical evidence of ancient Israel and Judah.

History and archaelogy, which you continue to ignore, reaffirms this.

Edited November 16, 2010 by Erikl

[questionmark]

That's from the wikipedia article about the Kingdom of Israel. You continue to ignore the extensive archeological evidence I presented here.

Also, I seem to have fallen after your disinformation, atleast regarding the absence of pig bones in sites in ancient Canaan. From wikipedia, I present to you the following paragraph:

History of ancient Israel.

So we have archaelogy evidence that sometimes between 1200-1000 BCE, there is absence of pig remains in the region.

History and archaelogy, which you continue to ignore, reaffirms this.

If you really want to discuss that I suggest the History Forum, where all of the above has been taken apart already.

And yes, there was one tribe found in the higher altitudes of the Canaan heigts that existed around 800-900 BCE where there is a total absence of pig bones. On the other hand they were goat herders and from the archeological evidence Polytheists. See Bright's book from 2000.

That could hardly have been a Jewish nation, though they could have been part of what later constituted the Jewish nation as their weather god was called Yahweh. The Jews started to exist, as far as can be demonstrated, during the Babylonian captivity, and most probably their origin is a wide array of captives from different ethnicity. Including some from Canaan. Which lets us come to the conclusion that the Jews could lay the same claim on any part of the Middle East and Occident as much as on Israel.

Now, if you want to claim that the archeology of before the year 1980 had "plenty" of evidence for the Bible version of history, hey they even found the Tower of Babel and Sodom, bedsides "knowing" that the Great Pyramid was Joseph's grain silo.

[FurthurBB]

so if chinese people showed up with guns and a country

who belonged to another people who were already living it

handed to those chinese and they ruled it as their own

is that legal ? i doubt it

israel could have lived else where .. they " choosed " to live

in palestine .. now they're reaping results

It is not just that they chose to live in that region. I actually agree that they should have a country there. I also think that back in the beginning they had a right to defend themselves from the aggression of their neighbors. The real problem is today and what they are doing now. The prejudice against everyone is unbelievable to me. They hate you if your Arabic, Muslim, Christian, Jews for Jesus, and even if you are Jewish but your mother converted. They hate the Bedouin who have never been anything but peaceful. This is the problem and when both sides are acting like children nothing will ever get better.

[Erikl]

questionmark, what you present here is revision of history. It's a fact that the Jewish faith was created from the Israelites. It's a fact that there are two religions which descent from the Israelite religion - Judaism and Samaritanism. Jews became to call themselves jews only after the Babylonian captivity, that's true, but the political entity of Israel existed well before that - as evidenced.

Now if you want to refute the connection between the Israelites and the Jews (ancient or new) - go ahead. That'll be a first.

[questionmark]

Now if you want to refute the connection between the Israelites and the Jews (ancient or new) - go ahead. That'll be a first.

As last answer to the theme, because this thread has been derailed long enough now, no, I don't want to separate the Jews from the Israelite, I just say that they don't exist as long as some claim and most probably not before 600 BC. Which is not quite the same.

[Erikl]

I think the thread was derailed as soon as the revision of history started here. Judaism as a religion came to look something like modern Judaism only arround the 4th century BC, after the Pharisee sect was established. The last tenents of Judaism as we know it, and clear monotheism, was crystalized during the Babylonian captivity, probably as a result of the influence from Zoroastrianism and the exile itself which caused the Judean Israelites to believe that their god was a universal one.

It is a fact that there was a temple since atleast the 9th centuy BCE, so there was some sort of quasi-monotheistic religion as somewhat described in the Bible. However, we also know from the Jewish scriptures that polytheism was widely practiced and very hard to eradicate. The fact is that the nation called Jews predates the religion of Judaism, which was and still is a developing religion, centered around the historical-mythological Torah and Tanach.

[Knight Of Shadows]

You speak of facts? What facts would these be? I haven't seen any. Not one. Who are the "majority" of the people? The Arabs? You make no sense. Who is "we'? The Arabs again?

Do not lecture me on the difference between facts and personal opinion. Because obviously, you haven't understood the difference.

ohh please facts .. and you .. don't go well together

now if you excuse me i have no more time to waste with you

every one free to think as they please