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danielost

body scanners and pat downs

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danielost

You people seem to forget that flying is not a right. Nor is driving.

You are perfectly free to walk to your cross country or international destination, or take a boat partway. (though, unless you have your own boat, you will have to be sailing on someone elses property and leaving the united states...)

If you don't want to be scanned or patted down, you don't have to fly. (going into a courthouse or other public building is different, IMO.)

Now, if enough people cry about it, maybe there will be a change. But there is no legal recourse, IMO. Because you don't have to fly, and flying is not a protected right at all. The only way this would be different is if airlines were publically owned, or owned and operated by the gov't.

But they are PRIVATE BUSINESSES (though most publically traded).

sorry but since flying and driving are not covered by the constitution, they are protected rights. the government has no right to search you without reason or a warrent.

those of you who are flying on wednesday remember to opt for the pat down. this is a protest neither is a good thing, but if enough people opt for the pat down on wednesday maybe the government will get the message.

Edited by danielost

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Neognosis
Especially if your job required you to travel. This needs to be shot down fast.
and Neogenisis, I can't drive or take a train, or a bus, my company won't allow it, I am forced to fly, doing it any other way is simply too expensive in time and money because time is money and I do NOT have a choice---Getting fired is NOT an acceptable alternative.

I have bad ears and I can't stand underwater depths of more than 10 feet or so. SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A DEEP SEA DIVER. I also dont' like small spaces, SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A CHIMNEY SWEEP. I don't like killing animals, SO I DON'T GET A JOB IN A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

Too bad for you. You have no legal recourse. Maybe if you keep complaining and if enough people feel the way you do, they will change what they are doing, but you have no legal recourse to demand change.

My sister has to fly to Hawaii with my nieces in January. She has NO option but to fly, there are no boats to Hawaii anymore and swimming is rather out of the question. She and my brother in law MUST be there to sign some documentation in person on a piece of real estate. She's already bought her daughters one piece body suits with tights and ballet skirts they will wear, and if anyone lays a hand on them, they will scream "Stranger Danger and Stop Touching me Inappropriately" They've been instructed to do so.

Love drama much, do you? (oh, there are boats that go to Hawaii. You can be pretty sure of that. But whatever, your response is all about emomtion and not reason.) Oh, also, they don't HAVE to purchase and/or sell that realestate, do they? They are CHOOSING to. But again, emotional response....Also, why is it that they HAVE to bring their children to do this?) Do they do that when the doctor examines them too? The tsaa official is not going to insert a finger into their rectums or vaginas.

This is what my nieces, American citizens, ages 3 and 6 will be wearing to the airport in January if the rules don't change. No one gets to touch those girls ever, nor do they get to take what is legally pornographic photos of them.

Pornography? Really? You think this is the same as pornography? I disagree. It sounds like you have a very different idea of what pornography is than I.

I'm pretty amused that you assume that all the TSAA security people are pedophiles who even want to feel your neices up. They probably are regular people who just want to do their jobs and aren't going to enjoy this any more than their subjects will. But you seem to have a different idea, hence the "pornography" remark.

sorry but since flying and driving are not covered by the constitution, they are protected rights. the government has no right to search you without reason or a warrent.

You should stick to your bible, as your knowledge of constitutional law is even more lacking. Flying and driving are NOT rights. And the supreme court has upheld this when they upheld cases brought against sobriety checkpoints, which were found to be constititional. You don't have the right to drive a car, it is officially a priviledge. Same with flying. You have no consitutional right to fly. Or to drive. They are privildeges and are not protected. Look it up before you start making more false claims.

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OverSword

I think I'm Going to Cabo San Lucas in January. I can't wait. I hope I have the oportunity to turn down the scan so they can give me the grope down. I will jiggle my ass and giggle and moan and then thank the guy when he's done, all out of breath. I will then proceed to the back of the line and go again while humming love is a many spleandored thing.

Is it ok to say that in every post I've ever seen him participate in neognisis is a complete ass?

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veledran

I have bad ears and I can't stand underwater depths of more than 10 feet or so. SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A DEEP SEA DIVER. I also dont' like small spaces, SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A CHIMNEY SWEEP. I don't like killing animals, SO I DON'T GET A JOB IN A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

This doesn't work as people had jobs BEFORE they put this in place. Nice troll post though.

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MissMelsWell

I think I'm Going to Cabo San Lucas in January. I can't wait. I hope I have the oportunity to turn down the scan so they can give me the grope down. I will jiggle my ass and giggle and moan and then thank the guy when he's done, all out of breath. I will then proceed to the back of the line and go again while humming love is a many spleandored thing.

And I happen to know that OverSword has a good singing voice.

I think you should buy a Speedo and head to Sea-Tac and beg them to grope you. Or maybe borrow those hilarious swimming trunks you guys had in the 80s that were like bicycle pants... I'm pretty sure your brother still has a pair that are highlighter yellow and barbie pink. LOL. Or maybe you could dig your Spandex circa 1983 out of the closet. LOL. There are all kinds of fabulous choices for flight attire I suppose. LOL.

I'll be there with my phone to record it all. LOL.

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MissMelsWell

This doesn't work as people had jobs BEFORE they put this in place. Nice troll post though.

Amen! I don't particularly like traveling for work, I did enough of that in the 90s to last a lifetime. When I took my current job, the only offices we had were local and within driving distance. About three weeks after I started, we opened offices in Arizona, California, and soon Illinois... SO yes, he's TROLLING.

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Leah G.

Sorry guys, I'm in favor of profiling. We all do it anyway. We are at war with these people, why shouldn't we profile instead of assulting everyone except those that might actually pose the risk. The whole concept of assulting someone that poses no risk, like a three year old is just dumb and letting the muslium dressed in bulky clothes that could hide anything is more than stupid.

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Euphorbia

I have bad ears and I can't stand underwater depths of more than 10 feet or so. SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A DEEP SEA DIVER. I also dont' like small spaces, SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A CHIMNEY SWEEP. I don't like killing animals, SO I DON'T GET A JOB IN A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

You seem to lack empathy.

Are you a mouthpiece for the TSA?

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Neognosis
This doesn't work as people had jobs BEFORE they put this in place. Nice troll post though.

That's irrelevant. The landscape has changed. If you can no longer fulfill the duties of your job, you need to get another job.

But that's nto even the case, you are still capable of fulfilling your job duties, you simply no longer want to. You don't WANT a body scan or a pat down.

But the point is, currently you have no legal recourse. But like I said, if you keep complaining, maybe they will write a new law or amendment for you.

The best thing would be for you to just stop watching FOX news, or any other 24 hour news channel, as this is a lot of nonsense about what is essentially nothing, and you are falling for it hook, line, and sinker.

Oh, I used to be a news photojournalist. I've been patted down by the secret service several times, and searched by their dogs as well. And once detained and questioned when I made a stupid remark to one Sec serv agent. All in the course of doing my job.

If I couldn't hack it, I would have found another job. which is what I ended up doing after 5 years anyway, but not because of that.

I guess I feel this way because:

a- I don't have any problem with a full body scan

b- there simply is no legal recourse.

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danielost

I have bad ears and I can't stand underwater depths of more than 10 feet or so. SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A DEEP SEA DIVER. I also dont' like small spaces, SO I DON'T GET A JOB AS A CHIMNEY SWEEP. I don't like killing animals, SO I DON'T GET A JOB IN A SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

Too bad for you. You have no legal recourse. Maybe if you keep complaining and if enough people feel the way you do, they will change what they are doing, but you have no legal recourse to demand change.

Love drama much, do you? (oh, there are boats that go to Hawaii. You can be pretty sure of that. But whatever, your response is all about emomtion and not reason.) Oh, also, they don't HAVE to purchase and/or sell that realestate, do they? They are CHOOSING to. But again, emotional response....Also, why is it that they HAVE to bring their children to do this?) Do they do that when the doctor examines them too? The tsaa official is not going to insert a finger into their rectums or vaginas.

Pornography? Really? You think this is the same as pornography? I disagree. It sounds like you have a very different idea of what pornography is than I.

I'm pretty amused that you assume that all the TSAA security people are pedophiles who even want to feel your neices up. They probably are regular people who just want to do their jobs and aren't going to enjoy this any more than their subjects will. But you seem to have a different idea, hence the "pornography" remark.

You should stick to your bible, as your knowledge of constitutional law is even more lacking. Flying and driving are NOT rights. And the supreme court has upheld this when they upheld cases brought against sobriety checkpoints, which were found to be constititional. You don't have the right to drive a car, it is officially a priviledge. Same with flying. You have no consitutional right to fly. Or to drive. They are privildeges and are not protected. Look it up before you start making more false claims.

funny in utah they have to write tickets for any violation at those checkpoints to make them ocnstitutional. so your saying if your drunk you cant fly. better tell the airlines to stop serving bozz on board.

it doesnt matter if you walk run drive fly or swim, the government cannot search you without a warrent and reason to believe that you are commiting a crime.

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OverSword

See, you did that without being a total ass. Congrats neo. I now have renewed faith in humanity.

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Neognosis
You seem to lack empathy.

Ok, here's some empathy:

I'm sorry you are afraid to have a body scan, and that you have delusions that your body scan will be somehow misused. And I'm sorry that you think the TSAA agents are some sort of perverts who are enthused about patting down your children/neices/self/spouse... whatever. I suggest you turn off FOX and all the other 24 hour news agencies and/or find another job or method of travel.

OR, you could write your representatives and try to amend the constitution or have additional legislation passed to address this.

Or just complain and dont' fly anymore and see if the airlines push for a change.

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Neognosis
funny in utah they have to write tickets for any violation at those checkpoints to make them ocnstitutional. so your saying if your drunk you cant fly. better tell the airlines to stop serving bozz on board.

1- I don't know utah law, but I suspect you are misinformed, based on most of your other posts.

2- the second sentence in your above quote is a non-sequitor and makes no sense, nor did anyone make that claim.

it doesnt matter if you walk run drive fly or swim, the government cannot search you without a warrent and reason to believe that you are commiting a crime.

You are again misinformed. You already are subjected to searches on your luggage and/or person if you want to fly. Because flying is not a right. The same way that they can stop you at a sobriety checkpoint and do a visual search of your vehicle from the outside, as well as ask you questions. I dont' like it at all, but that's the law. You can't change that by writing false claims to the contrary.

Other examples: You can't walk into a court house without going through a metal detector and/or a search

You can't walk into many national monuments without the same

You can't even go into some concerts or shows without a pat down.

Becasue none of the above are rights guarenteed by the const. You don't have to do any of the things listed above, and they are not protected.

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Euphorbia

Is it ok to say that in every post I've ever seen him participate in neognisis is a complete ass?

:tu:

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danielost

1- I don't know utah law, but I suspect you are misinformed, based on most of your other posts.

2- the second sentence in your above quote is a non-sequitor and makes no sense, nor did anyone make that claim.

You are again misinformed. You already are subjected to searches on your luggage and/or person if you want to fly. Because flying is not a right. The same way that they can stop you at a sobriety checkpoint and do a visual search of your vehicle from the outside, as well as ask you questions. I dont' like it at all, but that's the law. You can't change that by writing false claims to the contrary.

Other examples: You can't walk into a court house without going through a metal detector and/or a search

You can't walk into many national monuments without the same

You can't even go into some concerts or shows without a pat down.

Becasue none of the above are rights guarenteed by the const. You don't have to do any of the things listed above, and they are not protected.

then the police who informed me of that didnt know what they were talking about.

as i said all of it is an illegal search.

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ohio traveler

Those who have no problem with these searches should also have no problem with the police pulling you over in your car to search both you and your car. After all, driving is a privlige. Not a right.

( By their argument )

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Neognosis
as i said all of it is an illegal search.

YOu can keep writing that all you want, the supreme court has decided that they are not illegal. And by virtue of the SC decision, they ARE LEGAL. See, daniellost, the supreme court is the supreme law of the land. so the fact that they have upheld these searches as legal makes them so.

but feel free to write that they are illegal as much as you want.

Those who have no problem with these searches should also have no problem with the police pulling you over in your car to search both you and your car. After all, driving is a privlige. Not a right.

You already can be pulled over or put through a road sobriety checkpoint, where you will be asked questions and a visual inspection of your vehicle from the outside can be performed.

Now, your logic is further flawed in that the safety of a large group of people does not depend on the passengers in my car, like it is on a plane. Another flaw in your statement is that you can not enter certain gov't installations, and even some private property, without a search of your vehicle.

See, you generally don't have 30+ people you don't know getting into your car. I speculate that bus and train companies probably could search you if they wanted to, and as soon as terrorists start blowing up greyhound busses or trains, you may very well see that kind of reaction.

But airline travel has a long and sorted history of being used as terrorist weapons. But the individual car doesn't. And in cases where it is possible and maybe tactically viable to drive a car bomb into something, your car is searched.

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MissMelsWell

So, by your logic Neogenisis... If I go to the Mall this holiday season, you're just fine with them putting in Nudie scanners and groping you, your wife and your kid to get into the Mall? After all, you could be a terrorist with a BOMB in your Macy's bag.... setting off that bomb in a busy holiday Mall would likely kill more people than a terrorist on an airplane. So you're totally ok being groped when you go to buy your grandmother a new fancy Sharper Image foot bath right? Just checking... because that is where this is leading. It's illegal to do it at the mall, and therefore, it's got to be illegal to do it at an airport too. There's no greater or lesser danger in either case, both cases a ton of people would die. See?

Or maybe we could put them in movie theaters too, or how about let's put in new high tech ones that scan us before we drive over a bridge? Maybe we should put them in Chuckie Cheese?

We dont' even have this kind of security at our BORDERS! I don't get nudie scanned and groped when I go to Canada and come back!

Edited by MissMelsWell

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Michelle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Border search exception

Main article: Border search exception

Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."[68] The U.S. Courts of Appeals for the Fourth and Ninth circuits have ruled that information on a traveler's electronic materials, including personal files on a laptop computer, may be searched at random, without suspicion.[69]

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I would say that being groped or made to go through the body scanner intrudes upon my personal dignity.

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Neognosis
So, by your logic Neogenisis... If I go to the Mall this holiday season, you're just fine with them putting in Nudie scanners and groping you, your wife and your kid to get into the Mall?

I'm not fine with that, but legally they could. the mall is private property and I don't have to go there.

Plus, there would be no "groping." I'm fine with being pat down before I go into a concert.

So you're totally ok being groped when you go to by your grandmother a new fancy Sharper Image foot bath right? Just checking... because that is where this is leading.

Again, "groped" is not what is happening. And that's NOT where this is heading. Why? Because merchants want to make money, and they won't do anything that makes people shop online instead of come to the stores. So you can put away your "if we let them do this, then they will soon do that!" hat.

It's illegal to do it at the mall, and therefore, it's got to be illegal to do it at an airport too.

It's probalby not illegal to do that at the mall. It is not done though, so a case likely has not been brung to the supreme court, or any other court. Because people would jsut stop going to the mall. And that means merchants would make less money. And we dont' want that.

Your logic that if it is illegal at point A (which it isn't anyway) then it has to be illegal everywhere else is also not sound. Air travel is subject to a whole host of laws that are separate from almost any other activity. And they have been found constitutional.

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Michelle

Groping is exactly what is going on...

Privacy groups have challenged the new body scanners in court, saying they are a violation of privacy and illegal. Lawmakers plan to hold hearings on aviation security next week when they return to Washington.

Some travelers are also livid about how children are being screened. During a trip last Sunday by a father and son through Orlando airport in Florida, the 8-year-old boy was selected for extra screening by TSA after going through the metal detector.

The father said the officer described the procedure before conducting it. Then he patted down the boy in the open security area, using the backside of his hands to check his genital area, he said.

"I didn't think it was going to be as horrible as he was describing," said the boy's father, Bill, who works as a lobbyist in Washington and did not want his full name used.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE6AA55S20101111?pageNumber=1

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Neognosis
Groping is exactly what is going on...

umm.. no.

Grope

1. To reach about uncertainly; feel one's way: groped for the telephone.

2. To search blindly or uncertainly: grope for an answer.

v.tr.

1. To make (one's way) by reaching about uncertainly.

2. Slang To handle or fondle for sexual pleasure.

None of the above are what is happening.

But keep using terminology meant to inflame the issue. Much like the news. It will also get you lots of attention, much like the news.

Privacy groups have challenged the new body scanners in court, saying they are a violation of privacy and illegal. Lawmakers plan to hold hearings on aviation security next week when they return to Washington.

Until then, they are legal. And most likely, nothing will change.

It is far more invasive when one of my 2 year old son's daycare workers changes his diaper.

Edited by Neognosis

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Michelle

2. Slang To handle or fondle for sexual pleasure.

And you can say, with complete certainty, that none of the people doing these searches get off on it?

We were also told the scanners had no way to save images and wouldn't be abused, but case after case has come to light which contradicts that.

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MissMelsWell
Main article: Border search exception

Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."[68] The U.S. Courts of Appeals for the Fourth and Ninth circuits have ruled that information on a traveler's electronic materials, including personal files on a laptop computer, may be searched at random, without suspicion.[69]

I don't know how you read that, but I know how I read that.

THat means you better be damn sure you're going to find a bomb in my bum before you virtually strip search me or grope my ass. Unless you're sure, keep your prying eyes off my underware and get your hands off my boobies and ass.

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Neognosis
And you can say, with complete certainty, that none of the people doing these searches get off on it?

Is that your concern? You think someone is going to grope you for pleasure? How will you know this? will they orgasm there in front of you? Will they make little "mmm... yea, that's it..." noises?

And how many TSA agents do you think are going to get off on it? Probably around the same percentage as that of doctors that "get off" on examining their patients.

Or massage therapists, or physical therapists. Or occupational therapists. Or chiropractors. Or daycare providers. Or nurses. Or med techs. Or any other profession that requires the professional to touch their patient/customer.

We were also told the scanners had no way to save images and wouldn't be abused, but case after case has come to light which contradicts that.

IF ONLY! I not only wouldn't really find that traumatizing, but I could also sue and quit this job. "case after case?" How many?

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