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danielost

body scanners and pat downs

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Neognosis
don't know how you read that, but I know how I read that.

THat means you better be damn sure you're going to find a bomb in my bum before you virtually strip search me or grope my ass. Unless you're sure, keep your prying eyes off my underware and get your hands off my boobies and ass.

In what world do you live in which a pat-down with the back of the hand equates to a strip search or body cavity search? Oh, you said "virtually" strip search you. What's that? do you "virtually" get to keep your clothes on, which "virtually" makes it NOT a stip search?

Why am I not surprised though? Your argument seems entirely emotional.

Edited by Neognosis

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MissMelsWell

In what world do you live in which a pat-down with the back of the hand equates to a strip search or body cavity search? Oh, you said "virtually" strip search you. What's that? do you "virtually" get to keep your clothes on, which "virtually" makes it NOT a stip search?

Why am I not surprised though? Your argument seems entirely emotional.

WRONG.. that's what they do now but only AFTER you've failed all the other safeguards... have you seen the video of these pat down searches? They're putting their hands DOWN PEOPLES pants; front and back!! They're grabbing all the way up into the groin area.. this is NOT a simple pat down. NOT.

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OverSword

Why am I not surprised though? Your argument seems entirely emotional.

And your argument seems entirely based on the fact that you love to argue.

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Neognosis
WRONG.. that's what they do now but only AFTER you've failed all the other safeguards... have you seen the video of these pat down searches? They're putting their hands DOWN PEOPLES pants; front and back!! They're grabbing all the way up into the groin area.. this is NOT a simple pat down. NOT.

Post videos please, as well as support for your argument that this is typical and accepted and condoned by the TSAA.

Also, explain what you mean by "after you've failed all the other safeguards."

I'm telling you, I've been searched multiple times by the secret service and going into and out of certain buildings and events. You people are taking atypical cases which have received much publication and allowing yourselves to be manipulated by the media into thinking these are typical. Hysterial. Typical hysteria.

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Professor Buzzkill

umm.. no.

Grope

1. To reach about uncertainly; feel one's way: groped for the telephone.

2. To search blindly or uncertainly: grope for an answer.

None of the above are what is happening.

Isn't that exactly whats happening. I mean they don't know if you have a bomb or where it might be so they search your body blindly, reaching uncertainly, in inappropriate places. Can you imagine your grandmother or little sister getting that treatment?

Im normally not in support of targeting specific groups, but in this case i could make an exception.

If this continues, the terrorists have won.

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Neognosis

No, they have a specific pattern that they follow. they don't just randomly fish around, nor do they do it blindly. But if you stop CALLING it groping, it loses a lot of it's scare-sensationalism. Because it doesn't have any of its own without you hyping it up.

Have any of you ever even been patted down by an official? or seen it?

Can you imagine your grandmother or little sister getting that treatment?

My girlfriend has been patted down numerous times in front of me going into shows. Not a problem. I don't take my grandmother to shows though, so I can't say. But I probably would not have a problem with it the way it actually happens, not the way you folks have imagined it.

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Donnie  Darko

Those who have no problem with these searches should also have no problem with the police pulling you over in your car to search both you and your car. After all, driving is a privlige. Not a right.

( By their argument )

That's a valid point.

Neognosis - You seem to be missing the point though, it's not only about the extreme measures taken by the government, but also a matter of principle. Also, you have to understand that some of these "security officers" (and I use that term loosely) are printing them out and handing them out like candy among their friends. You still have no problem with this? They could be your kids scans they're handing out or smuggling to their homes. It's disturbing to know they're already doing it with adults, who's to say they're not doing it with children already?

Also to top it off, certain religious people are exempt from the scans? That's bulls***.

I don't understand some peoples' logic. :o

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MissMelsWell

No, they have a specific pattern that they follow. they don't just randomly fish around, nor do they do it blindly. But if you stop CALLING it groping, it loses a lot of it's scare-sensationalism. Because it doesn't have any of its own without you hyping it up.

Have any of you ever even been patted down by an official? or seen it?

My girlfriend has been patted down numerous times in front of me going into shows. Not a problem. I don't take my grandmother to shows though, so I can't say. But I probably would not have a problem with it the way it actually happens, not the way you folks have imagined it.

You really don't care if some dude at the TSA shoves his hands down your kids pants or feels up your 12 year daughter?? You really don't care? You really don't care if some unknown person you can't see is standing in a booth gawking at your wife pretty much naked? Or worse your kid naked? Ok, you might not care, but I care. I don't think anyone should be subjected to that EVER.. unless they've broken the law and have been arrested. Then all bets are off.

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rashore

A pair of interesting articles..

This article is about a lil problem Indian actor Shahrukh Khan had at Heathrow with staff printing out his scans to enjoy. Lovely pic of what a scanner can do is included.

This article shows what the image from the first article looks like when the scanner image is inverted.

Sorry I'm posting just the articles, both are interesting reads BTW. I personally thought the images regular and inverted were a bit too graphic for posting.

Yeah, that sort of thing is disturbing, and I would call that a virtual strip search that's just as icky as expecting a person to actually strip down in reality. That type of image should only be seen by me, my hubby, and sometimes my doctor. That type of image for kids.. Should only be seen by their caregivers or doctors.

And I've gone to some serious smuggling concerts where they pat ya... I've never had any of my personal bits touched, ever. The people at the airport don't need to do that either.

I don't think every person patting or scanning is a perv. But I do think there are for sure some that abuse it. Maybe for pleasure, maybe as a harassing tactic, maybe just because they are bored, I dunno.

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Neognosis
Neognosis - You seem to be missing the point though, it's not only about the extreme measures taken by the government, but also a matter of principle. Also, you have to understand that some of these "security officers" (and I use that term loosely) are printing them out and handing them out like candy among their friends. You still have no problem with this? They could be your kids scans they're handing out or smuggling to their homes. It's disturbing to know they're already doing it with adults, who's to say they're not doing it with children already?

If they are printing them out, they are breaking the law, and should be punished. This does not mean that the scans are illegal.

Also to top it off, certain religious people are exempt from the scans? That's bulls***.

Here we can agree.

You really don't care if some dude at the TSA shoves his hands down your kids pants or feels up your 12 year daughter??

That is not typical. So stop portraying this as if it is. This is not what is typical or legal.

You really don't care if some unknown person you can't see is standing in a booth gawking at your wife pretty much naked? Or worse your kid naked? Ok, you might not care, but I care.

No, I really don't. and if I did, I would not fly. Nobody says I have to fly. Besides, much along the lines of your spreading of wildy exaggeratred information above, the body scans are hardly naked pictures.

http://weirdnewsfiles.com/wp-content/weirdnewsuploads/bodyscan.jpg

That is WAY less than you can see on a person at a typical day at a beach. A semi-transparent blob... really? who the hell cares?

And way less than the babysitter sees of my kid when he poops his diaper and needs to be changed.

Why do you insist on exaggerating continuously? Why do you keep portraying isolated incidents that ARE illegal as being typical and legal? Have you just worked yourself up into a frenzy?

Like I said, doesn't bother me. It bothers you though, but it is, so far, legal. So if you dont' like it, you will have to do something else about it than claim it is illegal, becasue it is not.

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danielost

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Amendment_to_the_United_States_Constitution

Border search exception

Main article: Border search exception

Searches conducted at the United States border or the equivalent of the border (such as an international airport) may be conducted without a warrant or probable cause subject to the "border-search" exception.[67] Most border searches may be conducted entirely at random, without any level of suspicion, pursuant to U.S. Customs and Border Protection plenary search authority. However, searches that intrude upon a traveler's personal dignity and privacy interests, such as strip and body cavity searches, must be supported by "reasonable suspicion."[68] The U.S. Courts of Appeals for the Fourth and Ninth circuits have ruled that information on a traveler's electronic materials, including personal files on a laptop computer, may be searched at random, without suspicion.[69]

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I would say that being groped or made to go through the body scanner intrudes upon my personal dignity.

i am assuming you didnt read this part, this part makes the scanners illegal, since you are being strip searched.

the pat downs are also illegal since people are being forced to open their pants to allow security to reach down in their pants. i would state the mere fact that they are reaching down inside your pants makes it a strip search. so again it is illegal.

as for the supreme court it is a popularity contest with them, in 10 years that court may reverse this one.

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Michelle

http://www.azcentral.com/travel/articles/2010/09/08/20100908airport-security-full-body-pat-down.html

Under the older procedure, TSA officials pat passengers to identify hidden objects, using the backs of their hands to search sensitive areas of the body. Under the new procedure, Ott said, TSA screeners feel and prod passengers with their palms and fingers.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2013436826_apusairportsecurity.

The software engineer posted an Internet blog item over the weekend saying he had been ejected from the San Diego airport after being threatened with a fine and lawsuit for refusing a groin check after turning down a full-body scan. He said he told one federal TSA worker, "If you touch my junk, I'm gonna have you arrested."

http://www.ksl.com/index.php?nid=148&sid=13249785

SALT LAKE CITY -- The TSA is receiving more complaints over its new pat-down technique in screening airline passengers.

One traveler, Thomas Mollman of Texas, says he felt abused during a pat-down at the airport in Ft. Lauderdale, Fla.

"Between the underwear, right on the skin, all the way around the back, all the way around the front," he said.

He's filing a complaint, saying the TSA employee screened him three times without an explanation.

Local TSA spokesman Dwayne Baird told KSL's Doug Wright Show Thursday the agency hopes to get the same level of security from pat-downs as it does using body imaging.

The TSA implemented the new pat-down procedures at airport checkpoints nationwide Oct. 29. Travelers undergo that if they refuse to go through an advanced-imaging technology scanner.

Screeners now use the fronts of their hands, instead of the backs, and use a sliding motion along a person's body. In some cases, security workers are now allowed to touch body parts that were previously off-limits.

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I can almost guarantee you haven't had a pat-down like that before, Neo. I am not so afraid of a terrorist attack that I will subject myself to something so intrusive. If you do, then they have indeed won or you've, at the very least, fallen for all of the propaganda about there being a boogeyman around every corner.

Edited by Michelle

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Michelle

i am assuming you didnt read this part, this part makes the scanners illegal, since you are being strip searched.

the pat downs are also illegal since people are being forced to open their pants to allow security to reach down in their pants. i would state the mere fact that they are reaching down inside your pants makes it a strip search. so again it is illegal.

That was my point...

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MissMelsWell
That is not typical. So stop portraying this as if it is. This is not what is typical or legal.

Actually, it IS normal and typical as of Monday..... have you see the videos on YouTube of people who get to enjoy the TSA cramming their hands down their pants!?!!!! Have you seen the videos of women having their breasts touched?! Did you see the video of the three year old girl in Tennesee who was screaming STOP TOUCHING ME! as a MALE TSA did nothing short of grope at her?

Have you read the countless stories about the scans being stolen from these machine and being passed around? Over the months we've been told the machines were incapable of saving the images? I called BS on that 6 months ago fully knowing that NO software developer would EVER in their right mind develop a piece of equipment that couldn't save an image. DUH they HAVE to save it in case they found something and need the image in court to prosecute someone! Of course the images are being saved but they'll lie to you and tell you they aren't.

Do you know that the people monitoring the scanners and feeling your kids and granny up might have nothing more than a high school education and VERY little training and no wiggle room to make any kind of judgement calls?

I fear the TSA more than I fear terrorists. I take a risk when I'm flying... we've seen FAR more plane crashes in the last 10 years than we have terrorist attacks... the previous system WORKED. Don't change what ain't BROKEN!

ALSO,

Have you noticed that NO ONE has posted a picture of what the scans look like when a child walks through them? What about a 10-14 year old girl? They don't do that because it's tantamount to child frickin' exploitation! And, a little photoshop work on one of those images (which have proven to have been released to the public and also used for illegal purpose) can turn one of those scans into a fully nude picture of a person. It takes lesst han 5 seconds to do it.

I'd post the videos... but I can't because I block YouTube on my firewall at work... Maybe later unless someone else would like to post the videos.. there's a lot of them out there.

Am I emotional? You bet the hell I am! Being groped, nudie scanned is now a part of how I make my living since I have to fly somewhere to work? SCREW THAT! The TSA is going to find out from me what happens when they make R-**** decisions like this... THey're going to get this 43 year old woman in their airport who is waltzing thorugh in a bikini, and if they try to touch me, I"ll scream rape and we'll see what happens from there. If I go to jail... awesome. My parents will post my bail.

Edited by MissMelsWell

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Michelle

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/jan/04/new-scanners-child-porn-laws

The rapid introduction of full body scanners at British airports threatens to breach child protection laws which ban the creation of indecent images of children, the Guardian has learned.

Privacy campaigners claim the images created by the machines are so graphic they amount to "virtual strip-searching" and have called for safeguards to protect the privacy of passengers involved.

Ministers now face having to exempt under 18s from the scans or face the delays of introducing new legislation to ensure airport security staff do not commit offences under child pornography laws.

They also face demands from civil liberties groups for safeguards to ensure that images from the £80,000 scanners, including those of celebrities, do not end up on the internet. The Department for Transport confirmed that the "child porn" problem was among the "legal and operational issues" now under discussion in Whitehall after Gordon Brown's announcement on Sunday that he wanted to see their "gradual" introduction at British airports.

A 12-month trial at Manchester airport of scanners which reveal naked images of passengers including their genitalia and breast enlargements, only went ahead last month after under-18s were exempted.

The decision followed a warning from Terri Dowty, of Action for Rights of Children, that the scanners could breach the Protection of Children Act 1978, under which it is illegal to create an indecent image or a "pseudo-image" of a child.

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I don't know about most people...I've read that 4 in 5 people approve of these scanners...but I like to screen who gets to see me nekkid.

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danielost

That was my point...

sorry my poost was pointed at neo. not you.

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MissMelsWell

Thank you Michelle! You rock girl!

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MissMelsWell

When they ramped up security at airports after 911, and banned all non-flying persons from accessing the gates... I didn't complain.

When the put secret, armed Federal agents on planes.... I didn't complain.

When they started checking my laptop for bombs... I didn't complain.

When they banned my disposable Bic lighter and fingernail clippers... I didn't complain.

When they started waving hand-held metal detectors over me... I didn't complain.

When they started licensing pilots to carry guns onto planes... I didn't complain.

When they started making me take off my shoes and coat.... I didn't complain.

When they barred me from taking my shampoo and toothpaste on the plane... I didn't complain.

When they started taking naked pictures of me and touching parts of my body I don't allow anyone but my boyfriend and my doctor touch.... I'M COMPLAINING!

The worst security breaches since 911 have been either caught, or not caught. And teh ones that weren't caught, like the guy who boarded the plane with the mask in China and flew to Canada, wouldn't have been caught by the nudie scanners or the groping anyway!!! They do NO good what-so-ever except to alienate people and violate their basic human rights! The old system was JUST FINE and it was even very effective!

Edited by MissMelsWell

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OverSword

I can't get this to embed so just click and watch the video.

The TSA is out of control

Edited by OverSword

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Michelle

I can't believe people are so paranoid that they would allow this to happen. My travel plans will forever be altered by this and I truly resent that! I will follow your bikini lead and see you in jail if need be, MMW!

Edited by Michelle

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Donnie  Darko

So what will it take to get the attention of Congress to overturn this situation? I'm not as hopeful because I just remembered we're living in different times where technology is everything. Sigh...make way for the devils. :devil: :devil: :devil:

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OverSword

Perhaps I should add that this is not about security. It's about how much freakin money some corporation is geting for thier government contract for manufacturing and installing these more than likely cancer causing, privacy invading, boondog BS machines.

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iluthradanar

I have a friend who works for the TSA and she is as upset as anyone else. Being accused of unsolicited touching isn't something one needs to deal with on their job. But they do as they're told. I just figure, scan me with a machine and look all you want, but do not touch me.

Edited by iluthradanar

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Euphorbia

I can't get this to embed so just click and watch the video.

The TSA is out of control

Eye opening video.

The TSA has been given way to much power! Now I'm 100% sure I won't fly with the current measures taken! I hope ticket sales decrease to a point where it hurts big time!

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Donnie  Darko

Well they do both, so you have to accept them both, which is a load of well...you know. I'm seriously thinking we should do a well organized protest. Ill jump on this bandwagon in my state, because I sincerely believe it's a violation of our rights as Americans. If nothing is done over this, the terrorist and the rich power companies have won. :(

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