Miracle of Calanda - in 1640

[Beckys_Mom]

With respect, BM, I was not "talking about others". My post that you referenced was about my own thought processes and how they relate to the reasoning for my argument in this thread. I am not particularly happy with the suggestion, which you have made public here by posting it, that I am continuing some sort of 'trouble-making'.

If you are unsure of the meaning of one of my posts, then by all means enquire about it. I don't mind answering reasonable questions if there is any doubt or confusion over what I say.

I see Leo... well thank you for making your point more clear....I guess I read you wrongly... and I apologise for mistaking your post for other reason... I do not wish to get into anyhting else

You are right I should have asked, I guess we both can do that at times without thinking...I did genuienly think you were looking to discuss more of the two groups who have posted.. it seems now I have picked you up the wrong way.. again these things do happen

To bring out a further point in ref to the miracle - For many of us who read the OP and other articles concerning it.... the way I view it all as one big picture.. is IE - lets say - we are all told there is treasure burried - X marks the spot......we go off on a hunt - some take the longer route and others find a short cut... all arrive to the X and all find the same thing in the end...well would it matter what steps some others took to find the X spot? especially if we all winded up with the same outcome in the end ( meaning the end result)

That was just my own little example of how I viewd this ....

People have so many different ideas on what constitutes as a miracle... some won't ever believe in miracles.. each to their own

If it had of been a story where a man was told he would never walk again...and years later he just gets up and walks ( after praying to our lady for help)... thne that itself would in my own view mean - a more possible outcome and deserve more attention when looking into other evidence that may or may not support it <-- that is the type of thing I would not dismiss as handy as one about a limb growing back...if you get my meaning

Again that is just my own views...everyone differs....

Edited March 11, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[Leonardo]

People have so many different ideas on what constitutes as a miracle... some won't ever believe in miracles.. each to their own

If it had of been a story where a man was told he would never walk again...and years later he just gets up and walks ( after praying to our lady for help)... thne that itself would in my own view mean - a more possible outcome and deserve more attention when looking into other evidence that may or may not support it <-- that is the type of thing I would not dismiss as handy as one about a limb growing back...if you get my meaning

Again that is just my own views...everyone differs....

Thank you for the apology, BM.

Regarding your suggestion that different 'degrees' of claim might evince a different degree of skepticism, I'm not sure that's borne out by the evidence. There have been threads here on UM, where lesser claims of 'miracles' - such as the one you used as an example - have been posted, and sometimes these have been equally dismissed via the suggestion the injury or disability was faked. And just as often these dismissals have been made without recourse to any evidence, but judging on the basis of the claim itself.

My view is that all such claims stand or fall on the evidence. I accept that we all make assumptions about the actual claim made, and I am not saying I am any different in that regard, but I do try not to let those assumptions colour my reading of whatever evidence there might be. Again, I am not saying anyone cannot hold whatever opinion they wish, just that if it is an opinion not based on the evidence, then it should be expressed as such, and not as fact.

Personally, the case presented in the OP is closed, as far as I am concerned. I am satisfied for myself the evidence points to no miracle, and that the claimant was a fraud. But that is only my conclusion.

Edited March 11, 2011 by Leonardo

[Beckys_Mom]

Regarding your suggestion that different 'degrees' of claim might evince a different degree of skepticism, I'm not sure that's borne out by the evidence. There have been threads here on UM, where lesser claims of 'miracles' - such as the one you used as an example - have been posted, and sometimes these have been equally dismissed via the suggestion the injury or disablity was faked. And just as often these dismissals have been made without recourse to any evidence, but judging on the basis of the claim itself.

Yes there sure has been...I have come to read so many... I think out of them all I really can only think of two I peronally beleived in - One was from Mod Irish...and the other was from a girl who no longer posts... I only cliamed to believe their story ecause I weighed up all possible outcomes and couldn't find any reason to hold a disbelief... others hoever I was able to say no I don't believe in due to the same process I have used before

So thats where it draws to a perosns one view on what they feel constitutes as a miracle when they are reading it.... Then you have those that do not ever beleive in any miracles..and you get the odd one that will just believe in any given miracles they read.. without doing any further investagations...

I personally have my own views on what I would call a miracle....and I know so many would disagree with how I view miracles

Lately though due to my own personal tragic events..I tend to not hold as much beliefs in miracles ...I think on my own behalf it can be understandable

Personally, the case presented in the OP is closed, as far as I am concerned. I am satisfied for myself the evidence points to no miracle, and that the claimant was a fraud. But that is only my conclusion

I dismissed it myself straight away - and yes I presented the same article you showed that had more detials on how it maybe fruad... but I mentioned earlier that to me a miracle would be - if my child were to come back to me...I know for a fact that itself is impossible now... just like I know limbs do not grow back... thats how I view those kind of things...

Thank you for the apology, BM

No probs..If I feel I have wires crossed I am never afraid to say I am wrong ...please bare this in mind for future ref lol

[+Sherapy]

Yes there sure has been...I have come to read so many... I think out of them all I really can only think of two I peronally beleived in - One was from Mod Irish...and the other was from a girl who no longer posts... I only cliamed to believe their story ecause I weighed up all possible outcomes and couldn't find any reason to hold a disbelief... others hoever I was able to say no I don't believe in due to the same process I have used before

So thats where it draws to a perosns one view on what they feel constitutes as a miracle when they are reading it.... Then you have those that do not ever beleive in any miracles..and you get the odd one that will just believe in any given miracles they read.. without doing any further investagations...

I personally have my own views on what I would call a miracle....and I know so many would disagree with how I view miracles

Lately though due to my own personal tragic events..I tend to not hold as much beliefs in miracles ...I think on my own behalf it can be understandable

I dismissed it myself straight away - and yes I presented the same article you showed that had more detials on how it maybe fruad... but I mentioned earlier that to me a miracle would be - if my child were to come back to me...I know for a fact that itself is impossible now... just like I know limbs do not grow back... thats how I view those kind of things...

No probs..If I feel I have wires crossed I am never afraid to say I am wrong ...please bare this in mind for future ref lol

IMO what one calls a miracle is personal, along the lines of what is ones zodiac sign or what tennis shoe does one think is better.

I'm practical and pragmatic so what I define as a miracle will reflect that.

If one chooses to dismiss miracle claims -all of them- IMO they are entitled to do that.

There is nothing at stake, IMO it's about as relevant as what sandwich I am gonna eat today.

For me anyways and quite frankly who cares lol. .

Edited March 11, 2011 by Sherapy

[Beckys_Mom]

IMO what one calls a miracle is personal, along the lines of what is ones zodiac sign or what tennis shoe does one think is better.

I'm practical and pragmatic so what I define as a miracle will reflect that.

If one chooses to dismiss miracle claims -all of them- IMO they are entitled to do that.

There is nothing at stake, IMO it's about as relevant as what sandwich I am gonna eat today.

For me anyways and quite frankly who cares lol. .

I agree with what you have said...good post

and as for zodiac signs...don't get me started..I ued to think they were real lol...( key words used - used to )

Edited March 11, 2011 by Beckys_Mom

[+Sherapy]

I agree with what you have said...good post

and as for zodiac signs...don't get me started..I ued to think they were real lol...( key words used - used to )

Geez my hubby just called me and told me we are on tsunami watch due to the Japan earthquake. I am really close to the ocean. eeks.

I might change my mind about miracles lol.

[Beckys_Mom]

Geez my hubby just called me and told me we are on tsunami watch due to the Japan earthquake. I am really close to the ocean. eeks.

I might change my mind about miracles lol.

Some places in the states have had warnings...sis I hope you will be fine...

you might change your mind on miracles?? come again? LOL

[+Sherapy]

Some places in the states have had warnings...sis I hope you will be fine...

you might change your mind on miracles?? come again? LOL

Just kidding.

It seems we are okay, the damage is hitting our marina's in Santa Cruz and San Francisco so far.

[+Sherapy]

Discernment can be done either through experience or through evidence. If you choose not to look into the claims of a miracle because of an understanding that miracles don't happen, then you are basing your answer on experience, not evidence. If you do examine the claims then you can claim that it is based on evidence.

That's the interesting thing about evidence - people accept different types of evidence, and people can have different opinions on the same evidence. For example, I believe Jesus rose from the dead, and I believe there is ample evidence of this event. You do not accept the evidence, which is fair enough, but it does show that evidence and experience are two vital elements in assigning truth value to any statement.

I guess this is what I was trying to get across in my questions - we both have different ideas as to what constitutes an "unequal claim". The claim that Jesus rose from the dead is a claim worth looking at, in my opinion. To you, the claim may only be of value in terms of finding out why it can't happen because you already know/believe that miracles can't happen, but ultimately the claim is rejected right from the start.

Know what I mean,

~ Guybrush Threepwood (Mighty Pirate^TM)!

I think I do....

I don't disagree Robbie, certainly discernment involves both experience and discrimination. In all honesty miracles as in the kind that are supernatural are very difficult to assign a truth value to for me, as it's matter of belief or non belief.

Because you beleive in the possibility of these type of miracles and I do not... means nothing , it changes nothing for me. I still find you an intelligent, fair young man and vice versa on whatever you think of me, I'm sure it has not been altered for yay or nay. .

In other words it's not personal .

Thank you for the question , quite frankly it was one of the bests ones on here.