Palestinians Step up and Upgrade Missile Threat

[Erikl]

Palestinians Step up and Upgrade Missile Threat

DEBKAfile Special Report

July 31, 2004, 3:05 PM (GMT+02:00)

A Qassam missile fired from the Gaza Strip landed in the southern Israeli Negev early Saturday, July 31, after two days of heavy barrages against Sderot and local kibbutzim. No casualties were reported. In all July, Gaza Strip terrorists fired 61 Qassam missiles across the border, killing two Israeli civilians and injuring a score. The mounting threat has raised the demand to expand the IDF presence to outside the Beit Hanoun sector so as to cover additional launching sites in the northern Gaza Strip before there are more casualties.

DEBKAfile’s military sources add:

When defense minister Shaul Mofaz gave Israeli troops a free hand to halt the hail of missiles, he ran into the limitations posed by Israel’s approaching disengagement from the Gaza Strip. The cabinet will be asked Sunday when it convenes in Jerusalem to determine how far the IDF may drive into the Gaza Strip to stamp out the threat - without placing Sharon’s planned evacuation in question, a quandary that may prove insoluble.

In any case, Arafat has raised the stakes.

Russian-made S-5 unguided aircraft rockets were part of the Egyptian haul earlier this month of a large shipment of missiles, stopped before they were smuggled to the Palestinians through the Rafah tunnels. The S-5 would be an important boost to the Palestinian arsenal; some may still defeat attempts to stop them and reach the Gaza Strip – either through the smuggling tunnels or by other routes, especially after Israeli troops are pulled back.

DEBKAfile reveals the Palestinians are planning to convert these Soviet-era 20-25-km range rockets into surface missiles capable of hitting southern Israel’s key cities of Beersheba, Ashkelon and Ashdod. The rockets were originally Soviet-designed for use by the Mi-24 helicopter, the Russian equivalent of the American AH-64 Apache, in Afghanistan.

In Palestinian hands, they would upgrade the missile threat beyond that posed by the hit-or-miss home-made Qassams, even the improved Nasser version.

Since Israel withdrew from southern Lebanon, the Hizballah have lined up some 13,000 missiles along the Israeli border. But the Shiite terrorist group is subject to certain outside constraints before it can shoot missiles into northern Israel. Arafat faces no such restrictions. Smuggled into the West Bank and deployed along the new defense barrier route ordered by Israel’s High Court, the new surface missiles could easily target Ben Gurion international airport and even the northern outskirts of Tel Aviv.

As to where Arafat found his new weapons, DEBKAfile’s intelligence sources postulate a number of possible suppliers: old stocks in Yemen, Sudan or Syria, sold with the knowledge of their governments or officers making a private buck. Another more menacing albeit roundabout alternative is their withdrawal from the large stores maintained by Saddam Hussein’s air force and army by Baathist insurgents, in token of their old ties with the Palestinians, or by al Qaeda elements fighting in Iraq, who would have used their Hizballah connections to smuggle them through southern Iraq and the Gulf emirates and on by sea to the Mediterranean coast of Egyptian Sinai.

The second possibility would explain why Egypt decided for the first time to seize a shipment of weapons bound for Rafah through Palestinian smuggling tunnels in Sinai and why Cairo hastened to report the seizure to Washington and Israel. Out of concern for its own stability, Egypt is making every effort to contain the Iraqi guerrilla-al Qaeda terror war from reaching a finger into the Sinai peninsula.

Russian Mi24b with two S-5 57mm pods

LINK

[Talon]

Why does the article talk about 'Palestinians' rather than 'terrorists' or 'Palestinian extremists'? The article does nothing to seperate the actions of a terrorist group with the rest of the Palestinian population. Rather it just paints an entire race with the same brush.

[Erikl]

Why does the article talk about 'Palestinians' rather than 'terrorists' or 'Palestinian extremists'? The article does nothing to seperate the actions of a terrorist group with the rest of the Palestinian population. Rather it just paints an entire race with the same brush.

Maybe because the PLO claim to represent the entire Palestinian people through the PA.

As the article talks about PLO\PA terrorism. The rest of the world sees the PA\PLO as the lawfull representive of the Palestinian agendas and goals.

So in this case, I think it's not being too general.

[Talon]

The rest of the world sees the PA\PLO as the lawfull representive of the Palestinian agendas and goals.

So because a groups claims to represent the views of the entire people, that must automatically be true?

Dude, through the elction system Bush / Blair can claim to represent the views of the Americans / British, doesn't mean they do.

[Erikl]

So because a groups claims to represent the views of the entire people, that must automatically be true?

Dude, through the elction system Bush / Blair can claim to represent the views of the Americans / British, doesn't mean they do.

Bush and Blair ideed represent their people, wether most of the people agree or do not agree, because they were elected by the people and for the people.

Although the PA/PLO is not a democratic organization (like most terrorist organizations), they do represent the Palestinians in the UN, EU, and past-talks with Israel. So one can talk about Palestinians in general in the case of the PA/PLO, just as one can talk about Brits and Americans in general when they really mean the British or American governments (in news articles, anyway).

[Talon]

I remember a lot of Americans taking offense at being branded with the same brush as Bush and their current government, yet here a similar issue is comming up only with Palistinians and nobody cares.

You can't brand an entire group of people with the same view just because they are 'represented' by people with some nut case politics.

I seem to remember getting blasted a while back for using a similar excuse in that people refer to America this America that because its their leaders' actions, where are all these people now?

[Erikl]

The difference is that America and the UK are democracies, so the people can and do tend to disagree with the government, and an effective media and opposition to criticise the government is in presence.

On the other hand, there is no opposition in Palestinian public to it's leaders actions.

There is no effective media in Palestinian society that tells objective facts.

This cause most of the population to agree with their leadership.

[Talon]

On the other hand, there is no opposition in Palestinian public to it's leaders actions.

There is no effective media in Palestinian society that tells objective facts.

This cause most of the population to agree with their leadership.

Funny , i remember a documentary last year where it was asking random Palistinian people their opinions, and they were as varied as any other people. Some wanted violence, some wanted peace, some thought their leaders were successfully fighting off an Isreali mence, some couldn't care less about the Isrealis so long as they didn't have to worry if they'd have home by the end of the week... and some didn't want to talk to the camera....

Branding an entire population with one brush just sounds like propoganda to me

[MaNgO_gIrL_hErE]

I have to agree with Talon here

[Erikl]

Oh comeon Talon... u are being paranoid here.

It is a common languistical use to call one side of a war in a general term. For example, u do not protest when the term "Israelis" is used on the news, yet u do feel uncomfartible when it comes to Palestinians.

In a war, the other side is often called by it's national identity.

It's like back in ww2, the russian forces were simply called "Russians", the brits being "British forces", or simply "British",

and the Nazis answered to the identification of simply "Germans".

This is a war-time lexical norme .

It's strikes me though how sensitive you are when it comes to such a use of words, which is so common, when it comes to the Palestinians.... then u blame people for being paranoids

Edited August 2, 2004 by Erikl

[Babs]

This is an interesting argument. I do remember the tv palestinian interview Talon talks about_ but aren't you splitting hairs? Edited August 2, 2004 by Babs

[Seraphina]

I think, in any other situation, I'd think Talon would indeed be splitting hairs...but I think he's taking up this issue with Erikl in particular, because Erikl's frequently demonstrated an inability to see the difference between a terrorist, and the goals of a terrorist, with a normal Palestinian, and their goals and desires.

His attitude to the actions of his military and government that lead to refugee camps being run over by tanks, children being murdered by snipers, and many innocent lives to be lost because they consider a cruise missile into a public street a better means of killing one man than the same snipers they use to kill children, has invariably been "we're dealing with terrorists!"

He is also about to reply accusing me of being the victim of anti-Israili propoganda. Although why my country, entirerly neutral in this conflict, would choose to lie to me about its going ons is beyong me...now HIS country, being an active participant, I could understand lying to him about it Or I could understand nationalist pride painting his veiw of what's going on...he, however, considers the idea of a European conspiracy against his nation far more likely.

Anyway...I don't think it's an objection to the term itself, but an objection to the frequent insinuations from Erikl that all Palistinians are terrorists, have sympathy for terrosists, or are somehow involved in terrorist activities.

This is, interestingly enough, the same excuse his government uses to have their houses bulldozed over. After a few years of that, I'd have sympathy for the terrorists too

[Erikl]

Clever, Sera, very clever.

But entirely untrue.

because Erikl's frequently demonstrated an inability to see the difference between a terrorist, and the goals of a terrorist, with a normal Palestinian, and their goals and desires.

The truth is that most of Palestinians, like any other human beings, just wish to live their lives. But they are leaded by a group of fanatics, who encite them to hate Israelis and Jews. The conflict between the Israelis and Palestinians could have been solved decades ago, if the Palestinians accepted the 1947 UN resolution in the division of the ex-mandate territory.

Their leadership had no such desire - they simply want Jews to get out of the middle east.

The Palestinian terrorism against Jews began well before 1948, and have continued after the establishment of Israel with no relevance of any occupation (the West Bank and Gaza strip were parts of Jordan and Gaza, but I don't recall any terrorism against Jordan or Gaza in 1948-1967).

The PLO, or "Palestine Liberation Organization", was created back in 1964, before the Israeli occupation of the disputed territories. It also used terrorism against Israel before Israel occupied the territories.

So yes, the current Palestinian population is highly brainwashed to hate Israelis and Jews, even before Israel entered the disputed territories.

His attitude to the actions of his military and government that lead to refugee camps being run over by tanks, children being murdered by snipers, and many innocent lives to be lost because they consider a cruise missile into a public street a better means of killing one man than the same snipers they use to kill children, has invariably been "we're dealing with terrorists!"

Mmmm... did you wrote it by yourself, or you simply quoted a description of Nazi Germany, which you consider to be equal to my country as you stated in previous posts of yours, from a history book?

What you wrote is not only untrue, but pure, and almost evil (if i wasn't convinced you no nothing about the conflict) lie.

The sentence "children being murdered by snipers" is little more than damagogue.

If the terrorists are using children as a shield, when they run and shoot at an Israeli soldier, I would like to know what you have done in replace, huh?

Oh, and about that father and his kid... i did a check after last time, find out he was killed by a palestinian fire.

About youre saying "many innocent lives to be lost because they consider a cruise missile into a public street a better means of killing one man than the same snipers they use to kill children", is not only a lie, but shows are stupid you are. A person I knew personally dies two months ago because our government decided to sent soldiers and what you call "snipers" to destroy a missile factory used to create missiles which are fired on Israeli cities. Many of them died, and the Palestinians, even the children, cheered and played with the bodies, playing soccer with the head of one of the soldiers.

Other soldiers later were sent by the government to scratch the remains of their comrades from the sands of Gaza.

There was a great protest in the Israeli public of how did the government let this happen, why didn't they use aircrafts or missiles instead of soldiers. The government answered that it is a moral obligation, and even though the Palestinians (and the ones who played with bodies were not terrorists, but children, who were tought to hate in levels you and i could never understand) acted like animals in this case. Two days later, same thing happened in Raffah.

About the elimination of Sheikh Yasin, who you still wipe about - obviously facts do not interest you. First of all, Israel watched him for a very long time, making sure he is NOT with innocent people around him. He was taken out in 5 a.m ON THE STREET, which was quite empty at that early hour. The six people who were killed with him were all his bodygaurds, that is - Hamas activists. How convinient was it to forget, eh?

Youre words were written for one reason, and one reason alone - to make me angry. Well, too bad. I'm not angry at all, on the opposite. I'm quite sad.

I'm quite sad at how arrogant you and youre brother (who I think you speak on his and yours behalf, as you seem to say in this post that he shares youre views), who as I've learnt probably never left the British island, and all youre knowledge on this situation is from BBC or other such networks, which are known (and I can bring links from news articles) to be biased when it comes to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

He is also about to reply accusing me of being the victim of anti-Israili propoganda.

Again, clever. Back propaganda is a clever mind trick, but i know this one, so it ain't gonna work on me. I don't need to accuse you of anything - you prove it yourself. Facts do not interest you. Only your truth. As you stated many times before, you are a radical (radical left if i remember correctly) person with radical political views. In many of youre posts you equated Israel to Nazi Germany, directly or indirect. And yet you never changed youre mind - you ignore all facts. For someone who I guess never met an Israeli or never been to Israel, you are pretty sure of yourself. And if taken into account you political orientation, I think most will agree that you are hardly objective when it comes to Israeli-Palestinian conflict (as I don't have to tell it to most of you Europeans, the hard left always participate in pro-Palestinian protest in Europe). So, mmm, lets see... all youre info is comming from ideas from youre hard-left ideology and the not-so-objective news reports... mmm... no I'm sure you are un-biased lol ....

Although why my country, entirerly neutral in this conflict, would choose to lie to me about its going ons is beyong me

Entirely neutral? lol....

lets see how much Britain was neutral in this conflict, as they were part of it from the beginning:

Back in mandate times the British always pleased the Arab will to stop Jewish immigration to the mandate, even though Britain was given the mandate by the League of Nations in the first place to help the Jews building homeland in the Land of Israel...

Then the British forbade Jewish immigrants from Europe to come to the mandate, and locked them in concentration camps in Cyprus... so far very neutral...

Then in the 1948 war the British fought on the side of Jordan, one of the Arab countries to invade Israel. The Jordanian army was commanded by British commanders.

Mmmm... now, lets see what history have to say about Britian's pro-Arabic history (who Sera or her brother will probably state that is irellevant to the ongoing conflict... lol)?

It is a known fact that British politics were guided by Arab oil back then.

Now, for some weird reason the hard lefties have no problem believing that the real reason for America's invasion to Iraq was oil, but can't believe that their own governments support Arab views because of the same thing - oil.... mmm... the hipocracy is huge these days, isn't it?

I think this will be interesting for you Sera and Talon:

LINK

Anyway...I don't think it's an objection to the term itself, but an objection to the frequent insinuations from Erikl that all Palistinians are terrorists, have sympathy for terrosists, or are somehow involved in terrorist activities.

Yes, well, read this:

LINK

After a few years of that, I'd have sympathy for the terrorists too

You want us to believe you don't symphathise with them already?

In conclusion, I think you made urself quite clear that you don't care for the facts. You know nothing about the conflict, you believe Israel is nothing short of a Nazi state, and you use youre languistic skills to spread lies.

Good for you

*Sigh*...

[Seraphina]

As much as I'd like to trawl through your essay, pick apart the parts where you leap on me with accusations of being a liar, stupid, or whatnot, I actually understand, wholeheartedly, why you feel the way you do.

You're living in of one of the most dangerous places in the world. Every single day you're hearing about bombings, deaths, friends and family you've probably lost, and it's absolutely no wonder to me you hate Palistine terrorist groups as much as you do.

They, on the other side of this conflict, have been subjected to acts of mass genocide, their homes and property being destroyed by your military, and losing friends and family also....so it's also no wonder that terrorist groups spring up that hate you too.

The fact is, it wouldn't take long to find accounts from journalists who report to someone other than your own newspapers and new services that would give testimony to the exact attrocities I mentioned. But my intention isn't to point out the right's and wrong's in this particular conflict....in my opinion, you're all nuts

My intention was to demonstrate that you seem to pain Palastinians up as the "bad guys", and a very flowery and innocent picture of your own country. And inbetween calling me stupid, igorant, and a liar....that's exactly what you went on to do in your last post

[Babs]

...interesting info.

[Fluffybunny]

My intention was to demonstrate that you seem to pain Palastinians up as the "bad guys", and a very flowery and innocent picture of your own country. And inbetween calling me stupid, igorant, and a liar....that's exactly what you went on to do in your last post

Very good point Sera.

Erik, she has a valid point. I understand where you are coming from on this issue, and I don't think that you are lieing by any means, but in my opinion Israel has not been perfect in dealing with this conflict. I don't know how you live in a country that deals with what you do on a daily basis, I know that I would have left long ago, but that is just me.

Obviously your posts are generated from your unique perspective which no one else here shares. They do paint Palestinians as the bad guys, in my opinion. Not just the terrorists, but the palestinians themselves. What percentage of palestinians are guilty of wanting all Jews out of the region by use of deadly force? I don't know. I feel confident in saying that it isn't all of them, which is how your posts come across.

I don't think that youy should call Sera stupid, that was uncalled for. You have a different opinion, both sides have valid points. It wouldn't be right for her to call you stupid, nor vice versa.

[Babs]

I think Erikl has reason to paint the Palestians as he paints them...he has data to back it up. I am interested in the material that he has and what's going on there. Why would Erikl flee his homeland? Do you know what it takes to leave your home, Fluffy? But as you said that is you. Your loyalty astounds me.

[wunarmdscissor]

Erm babs if you bother to do any research into the whole crisis you'll find that the palestinians have facts to back themselves up as well IE: the breaking of numerous UN sanctions to name but a few , and remember that was a good enuff reason for us to invade Iraq wsnt it

However as erikl knows the problem is vast an intertwined i believe that both sides are at fault.

[Fluffybunny]

Your loyalty astounds me.

You don't know a damn thing about my loyalty, lady.

I gave up my youth in order to serve my country. When I volunteered to go to Iraq(I did volunteer, I did not have to go) in 1990 I gave up a very good paying job, a new car, and a nice home. I gave everything up and sold what I owned in order to be able to go fight for something I believed in. I left my home, my friends, my family, my pets, and everything that I worked hard to attain up to that point in my life to do what I felt was right.

How loyal are you dear babs?

I think Erikl has reason to paint the Palestians as he paints them...he has data to back it up

I wouldn't doubt that you would agree with him. I have seen from your posts how your value of how precious life is, is directly correlated to skin tone. I didn't see data from Erikl that said that all palestinians could be painted with such a broad brush...

[Babs]

Fluffy wrote: " I didn't see data from Erikl that said that all Palestinians could be painted with such a broad brush..."

Erikl didn't paint with a broad brush. Sera said that she and Talon thought that he has not been objective. I said that he backs up his statements with data. Looks like you agree with me, Fluffy

As for the value of human life and skin color: every human being no matter what skin color is precious....and every life is of enormous importance.

Personally, aside, Fluffy. I think you are taking what I say 'too personally' and to heart. My statements are not intended to offend; I see them rather as 'rallying the troops'.

P.S. I don't see terrorists as human. Do you? You know the people that kill innocent men, women and children for thrills... or a cause.

[Fluffybunny]

P.S. I don't see terrorists as human. Do you? You know the people that kill innocent men, women and children for thrills... or a cause.

This goes back to a very old point that I went around and around with joc about.

I hate terrorists. I think that the actually terrorists should be punished to the fullest extent of the law, be it military law or civilian US law. If the death penalty is appropriate, I'll flip the switch myself and not lose a wink of sleep in the process.

My concern is that we very often do not know who is the terrorist and who is not.

Abu prison is a good example. The default assumption of many here was that those in the prison were guilty of something and got whatever they deserved. I didn't see either you, joc, kellelor or that bunch question whether those that were being humiliated deserved what they got. The assumption seemed to be that simply because they were in the prison, that they were guilty. No trial, no way to know for sure. This is not like WWII where we could tell the enemy by their uniform. People who are terrorists look a great deal like people who are simply trying to keep out of trouble and live their lives the best they can, in the given conditions.

I can tell you from firsthand experience that the search for enemy combatants in the situation that we are currently in is far less than perfect. There is no time for a trial, and simply becasue someone is in the same house or apartment complex can lead to being detained or jailed. What is going on there is not like the law works here in the US, and the folks that are being detained may have nothing to do with anything...

As for the value of human life and skin color: every human being no matter what skin color is precious....and every life is of enormous importance.

You say that, and that is very noble. Looking back over your posts I do not know if I believe that is the case. You seem to be incredibly outraged when innocent white people are killed(Nick Berg for example), but less than enthusiastic for questioning the deaths or humiliation of people of a different skin tone. I am not sure what to believe when you say these things. I would be willing to bet that had the prisoners of Abu been white, there would have been much more uproar from several around here.

[gollum]

Babs???????

Your knowledge of world events seems to be tainted with your connection to 9-11 Babs.

You tar all terrorists/freedom fighters with that very same broad brush you claim others use.

I get the impression that you really did not and still do not know what goes on outside your own borders.

A little question, if you please? Would you concider french ressistance fighters during the second world war as being terrorists and thus less than human?

[Babs]

I wanted to ask you Fluffy...back in the 1990's when you served our country....you didn't say how you felt now?

Yes, Gollum, I see everything thru 911. I'm talking post 911. And I've never claimed anyone used a 'broad brush' with anything. Look back over the posts, that's Fluffy's term. (And Sera and Talon were talking more generally about Erikl).

[Erikl]

Ok, let's start from the last, shall we?

****Warning: this is going to be long, as I am replying to about three different people****

First, Wund:

Erm babs if you bother to do any research into the whole crisis you'll find that the palestinians have facts to back themselves up as well

The fact is that Palestinians' record of truth-telling is very, very poor.

Most of Israel's criticisers tend to disregard this fact, but you just have to do your own little chekup to see it:

They lie to themselves: Palestinian education system tells that there was no Temple mount in Jerusalem (so the city has no Jewish connection); that Jesus was not a Jew, but a Palestinian; That the Palestinians' origins go back to the ancient Canaanites - only so they could claim that they were here before the Israelites.

They lie to the world - only two years ago they claimed that there was a massacre in Jenin, that thousands have died in just one week, that Israelis are destroying all of Jenin, and that we dig mass graves to hide evidence from the rest of the world.

All the world blaimed Israel for genocide against the Palestinians, but a month later, when a UN delegation came to Jenin, they saw that Israeli numbers were true - only 40 Palestinians died, most of them militias members, and 20 IDF soldiers died too in the battles. There was no mass bulldozing of houses - only one street was destroyed in order to get Palestinian terrorists out.

And not only that - a small unmanned aircraft catch on video a forge funeral of alleged victims of the massacre, when suddenly IDF soldiers came, and the "deads" just jumped out of their graves and started running with all the other Palestinians who were there....

Hardly any genocide.... the sad truth is that people like Sera actually believe that we commit genocide, no less, in the Palestinians .

And last - they lie to Israel.

The PA was brought to Israel from Tunis in 1993 as part of the Oslo agreements. In these agreements, the PA obligated to stop all terror.

The agreements DIDN'T talk about the fate of the settelments, as many people believe. This would have been decided later on the final stage of the agreements.

Also, the agreements do not speak of Palestinian state, they speak of Palestinian autonomy. Indeed, the PA in 1995 was governing 95% of the Palestinian population.

The PA, on the other hand, didn't do a thing to stop terrorism - and there was a lot of it after they came here. The climax, in 2000, when Israel's PM Ahud Barak offered Arafat 98% of the disputed territories, including the division of Jerusalem, our capital city. Arafat refused and started is current Intifada.

So you see - one of the reasons that we do not do bussiness with the PA anymore is that we simply do not trust them no more. Sorry, there is a limit to our faith in people.

the breaking of numerous UN sanctions to name but a few , and remember that was a good enuff reason for us to invade Iraq wsnt it

Well, actually, although what the BBC told you up there in Britain, Israel isn't equal to Iraq in the UN resolution subject - for clearification, PLEASE read this

LINK.

And highlights from this short article:

"

I. UN Resolutions

A. Two Kinds of Resolutions

1. Chapter Six deals with the peaceful resolution of disputes and entitles the council to make non-binding recommendations.

2. Chapter Seven gives the council broad powers to take action, including warlike action, to deal with "threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression". Such resolutions are binding on all UN members.

B. Application

1. Chapter Seven resolutions were used against Iraq after its invasion of Kuwait.

2. The resolutions relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict come under Chapter Six, not Chapter Seven.

3. By imposing sanctions--including military ones--against Iraq but not against Israel, the UN is operating in accordance with its own rules.

C. Palestinian Admission of the Difference: In a PLO report, entitled 'Double Standards' and published at the end of September, it is pointed out that though the UN has upheld the Palestinians' right to statehood, condemned Israel's settlements and called for Israel to withdraw, nevertheless 'no enforcement action or any other action to implement UN resolutions and international law has been ordered by the Security Council.'

"

However as erikl knows the problem is vast an intertwined

Yes, I'll agree. This is one of the most complicated conflicts in the world, and it is surely not as simple as the PA tries to make it appear.

i believe that both sides are at fault.

I would have believed it some 15 years ago...

But after seeing how much we offered to the Palestinians, and how their leadership got us to believe all their lies - I'm now convinced that the Palestinians are 90% to blaim for the continuation of the conflict and to their situation today.

They had so many chances, and yet their blind hatred to Israel and Jews made them to reject every good offer they've been offered to.

Next, Fluffy:

I don't know how you live in a country that deals with what you do on a daily basis, I know that I would have left long ago, but that is just me.

I will never leave my country!

And I know how it looks overseas, but believe me, we do have normal lives. Unfortunately, the last 4 years were terrible, and it's true that many of our neighbors want us gone for the last 56 years, but mostly we did good, in terms of ecomony, democracy, and good life in generall.

What percentage of palestinians are guilty of wanting all Jews out of the region by use of deadly force? I don't know. I feel confident in saying that it isn't all of them, which is how your posts come across.

Read this LINK

I don't think that youy should call Sera stupid, that was uncalled for. You have a different opinion, both sides have valid points. It wouldn't be right for her to call you stupid, nor vice versa.

I'm sorry if i was misunderstood, I was very tired the other day, and when I'm tired... well my english goes bad...

Anyway, i didn't call her a stupid, i said her comment was stupid, when she wrote that Israel do not send troops but use airplanes, and instead use troops against civilian population. My reaction came from a personal background, as I knew one of the soldiers (not personaly, but still), who died in a mission that should have been carried our by an airplane, but the government decided to send troops, to avoid any civilian causulties on the Palestinian side. The target was a facility for missiles fired daily by Palestinian terrorists at Israeli cities.

After the soldiers died, the Palestinian civilian population celebrated, played with the IDF soldiers' body parts, and played soccer with one of the heads of the soldiers.

Other soldiers then had to scratch the sands some 2 km from the city, for their commrades body parts.

As for Sera's lies - well, how else can I respond to a person who accuse my country in baseless accusations of genocide (aka - Nazi style), no less, when there is absolutely no truth in it? I'm sorry, but this is not a legitimate opinion. Especially when I offer her logical and sound explanations for things she read or heard.

And last - Sera:

As you've seen, I have no problem arguing with people about the conflict.

But when people start using baseless accusations with no connection to reality, such as you accusing Israel in mass slaugther of the Palestinian civilian population, I can't have rational discussion with such a person. Sorry, I hear too much of it from other ignorants in the basics of the conflict everyday that i'm just tired of repeating my self endlessly.

As for youre genodie accusations, here are some numbers:

There are 3.5 million Palestinans in the disputed territories.

There are 5.2 million Jews in Israel (out of total population of 6.78 million Israelis, 76% of them Jews, 20% Palestinians, and 4% Russians) and the disputed territories.

In the current Intifada, there were 1,000 Israeli causulties, and 2,900 Palestinian causulties.

When you take into account the fact that Israel has one of the most powerfull armies in the world, if Israel tried to genocide the Palestinains, these would have been a disaster in terms of relative causalties.

Is this look to you like a mass slaugther?

Also, when you take in account the fact that houndreds of the Palestinian cuausulties were suicide bombers (as there were houndreds of suicide terrorist actions in Israeli cities, some of them ended with Israeli victims, others with injuries only), the inner terror of the terrorist groups against Palestinians who do not cooperate (as I published only week ago, when Fatah terrorists killed a child who's family refused to let those terrorists fire missile at Israeli city Sderot), street courts when many Palestinian civilians are executed by other Palestinians with not trial, and you get to the reality of probably only 2,000 of the Palestinians are causulties of the battles between IDF and Palestinian terrorists - and still you must remember that many, if not most of those 2,000, are Palestinian militia members who fight IDF soldiers directly as part of terror actions (as not all terrorism is suicide terrorism).

Also, did you know that 20% of the Israelis are Palestinians? This means that any fifth Israeli is a Palestinian. Many of those Israeli-Palestinians died together with Israeli-Jews in suicide bombing done by Palestinian terrorists from the disputed territories. And still, Israeli-Jews and Israeli-Palestinians live in harmony: both enjoy western democracy, both enjoy western life style.

There is no round up of Israeli-Palestinians from the street, no collective punishment against them.

They live their life like all other Israeli citizens, and they, like other Israeli citizens, are not imune of Palestinian terrorism.

The elected winner of Miss Israel Beauty Contest in 1999 was a young Palestinian from Haifa, and

A PALESTINIAN soccer team is even REPRESENTING ISRAEL IN THE UEFA SOCCER GAMES!

Is this still look to you like Israel is commiting genocide against the Palestinians?

That we have something against the Palestinians as a people?

EDIT: as for my country hidding evidence from the public of any such military actions that could even resemble genocide - this is impossible in Israel, as almost every man and woman in Israel serve in the IDF for 2-3 years, everyone knows everyone as we are a small country, our people been through genocide so any actions that even resemble such a thing would have cuased mass histeria and protest, and the most important - we are a democracy with open and free press, i'll say too free ('cause they publish stuff about the IDF which shouldn't be published ), so anything like this would have been published all over the newspapers (and most of out newspapers are left-wing oriented in terms of subjectivity ).

First check the facts, then judge reality.

Edited August 3, 2004 by Erikl

[Babs]

BRAVO! Erikl.