Where are the serious Scientific Studies?

[Realityless]

The original post was

Where are the serious Scientific Studies?

To which you responded that

Universities gave up on parapsychological studies because it doesn’t produce results.

This seems a wild statement as "I saw a shadow move from the corner of my eye therefore it must be a ghost". Parapsychology is being dropped across most universities for a number of different reasons, the main being all unfettered research is being cut back hard; this also includes areas such theoretical physics. Unless you can show a case for commercial interest, funding is falling fast.

As a sceptic you may want to also ask the question as to why Parapsychology was funded for so long. I’ll give you a hint, there was and still is enough circumstantial evidence that some very smart people that head up universities put money and status on the line to investigate further.

Pseudo Sceptics will, like yourself will often make claims such as There is no such thing as the supernatural and the paranormal

And later you failed to backed it up with

One of the last schools to pull its parapsychologyical programs was Princeton in 2007, it was called Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research or PEAR. It ran its course for 25 years and closed because it showed nothing.

Following it with an unnamed quote that "It’s been an embarrassment to science, and I think an embarrassment for Princeton."

As somebody with sceptic train of thought and scientific method, I offered facts rather than personal opinion.

What PEAR showed and whose results where later confirmed by other leading universities is that the conscious mind can affect our physical world. Specifically that human conscious can affect the outcome of random events.

However for you to compare paranormal research to things like gravity and magnetism is absolutely asinine,

Did by asinine did you mean 'a sin' as I don’t really think it foolish to state that just as the effects of the consciousness interacting with the physical world can be shown, as with magnetism and gravity we have no fundamental understanding as to how.

Given that scientific fact that the conscious mind can affect our physical world, could you clarify why that same form of energy could not exist for some time after death.

[The Paranormal Skeptic]

Circumstantial evidence isn’t the same as repeatable evidence, which is what science requires. And me say “Universities gave up on parapsychological studies because it doesn’t produce results.” Is almost as wild as you saying ” Given that scientific fact that the conscious mind can affect our physical world, could you clarify why that same form of energy could not exist for some time after death.” Being that science doesn’t even have an agreeable definition on consciousness, let alone know what or how it is produced, is it separate from the brain or a product of the brain, WE DON’T KNOW! But it seems like you are posing a logical fallacy called the argument from ignorance. Basically you are saying since energy isn’t created or destroyed that means it survives fully intact and conscious after bodily death? That is a pretty big leap, is it possible? Absolutely, still it’s a pretty big claim, and not a leap science is willing to make obviously. As far as my 2 quotes go, the first one by Michael Shermer

“There is no such thing as supernatural or paranormal. Only the natural and normal and everything else in between science hasn’t explained yet.” This is a very good quote because once say a ghost is acknowledged by science it will then fall out of the realm of what you all call the paranormal. Funny thing is most parapsychologists feel the same way, that all this stuff is of the natural world and not paranormal.

"It’s been an embarrassment to science, and I think an embarrassment for Princeton." This was a quote by physicist Bob Park former Director of Public Information at the Washington office of the American Physical Society.

As for my asinine comment, I still believe you cannot compare the consciousness with gravity. We have laws of gravity; we have defined gravity we know gravity exists. We don’t know what consciousness is or how it is produced.

[Sakari]

I didn't realize the question was about unfettered research, I thought we were talking about the scientific data that supports paranormal research. But since we are talking about the decline in unfettered research, there is also a decline in science, mathematics and history, so what is your point?

Maybe it was a bit too much to say most people think science is against this, but a lot do. However for you to compare paranormal research to things like gravity and magnetism is absolutely asinine, please tell me that was not what you were trying to argue.

For a sceptic why are you not applying your own rules, it not just PEARS that has been dropped kick by universities it's all unfettered research. Universities have changed from places of research to commercial development labs.

What rules are you talking about? For some reason you are trying to debate this topic as if it were my opinion. I gave the legitimate reasons why universities do not pursue parapsychology and the like, I never suggested if I thought it was fair or not or whether or not I think it should be taken serious by science, if you would like to know my stance on that topic start a new thread, if not stick to the topic. Again the topic was about science and the paranormal, not all unfettered research.

Paranormal Skeptic ,

Thanks for your replies , very good information

[The Paranormal Skeptic]

Paranormal Skeptic ,

Thanks for your replies , very good information

You are quite welcome,

[Sevastiel]

This is false the CIA tried to use remote viewing but has sense quit using it due to lack of positive results.

They tell you that themselves did they?

Or perhaps someone close to someone who's close to them?

(Just messin with ya...or am I? )

If that were true there would be no schools of psychology in the universities.

What's an "id"?

I assume you're referencing the idea that things like Ego and Id cannot physically be measured or sensed?

Towards that end I suppose they'd be theoretical, but they do provide a foundation for tracing intentions, characteristic patterns of behavior, etc. (I actually group all this para-stuff in with similar concepts myself, just to keep things from receiving more than their fair share of the fairy dust and whatnot )

I am sorry I fail to see what u are saying here, are u suggesting psychology doesn't produce results? What I say about parapsychology is true, just take time to look up why every university in usa pulled it. One of the last schools to pull its parapsychological programs was Princeton in 2007, it was called Princeton Engineering Anomalies Research or PEAR. It ran its course for 25 years and closed because it showed nothing. This was a quote from a physicist "It’s been an embarrassment to science, and I think an embarrassment for Princeton." Also just talk to parapsychologists such as Loyd Auerbach or Dr. William Roll both of which I've spent great time talking to, they will tell you the same thing, that universities stopped offering parapsychology due to minimal results.

Which is arguably the largest portion of the stigma associated with the "why not" of the original question.

Theoretical or pseudo science is alive, kicking and screaming. But stigma can shut down anything where the majority providing the $ for it is concerned. Practical science is more feasible to fund because it produces tangible, measurable, 'sensible' results (as in, capable of being sensed by the known senses). The others require interested minority groups to fund/pursue them.

This sort of research is more properly confined to psych-centric fields than mundane physics until there can be found some chemical, neurological, hormonal, etc. connection with the timing of various events of legitimate (or at least less questionable) experience. Unfortunately, that requires any person/thing of said legitimacy to be treated like a lab rat until the experience manifests. That accounts for the accidentals, passives and triggerables (who don't know their triggers). Then, even with that unpredictability taken into consideration, the outcomes are not like to be significant enough for more time and resources to be devoted to it...since, resources in any case, are often supplied by those seeking some means of getting more back from their investment.

The ability to remote view or clair-sensory feedback is worth nothing to the $ if it cannot be reproduced through forced means after the fact across the board. Even if there have been positives, it's still worthless monetarily if it cannot be reproduced and controlled. Add to that the fact that the nature of the mind is such that one person can percieve and feel things differently than another and it only becomes more complicated. There are more variables there than in any other study (or am I being too bold with such a statement regarding the potential of the mind?) The equation has to be reduced to a manageable level. But if it's all in the mind, the feat itself is just too immense. You could study the mind for a lifetime and still be amazed at every new thing it produces. Isolating that is something I suspect we've only touched upon with these past studies. Who wants to put all that time and resource forward with the chance that it won't produce anything but more questions and variables? Only hobbyists, enthusiasts and those who've got $ to throw around without concern for ever seeing it again.

I could go into the spook topic, but that's conspiracy of a different sort; one way or the other.

The truth down that path is that it would certainly not be feasible to have such potentials become more widespread, the better good and/or evolution of the species be damned. Kind of makes good business sense when you think about it (not to mention all that time and resources...)

[Realityless]

Circumstantial evidence isn’t the same as repeatable evidence, which is what science requires

Well let's take a closer look at that and as you see American Physical Society as good science let's look at them as well.

A long long time ago in a physics lab not so different from the ones at PEARS, a Nobel scientist noticed an EVP from a radio telescope. From this circumstantial EVP evidence he concluded that the universe was created in a single big bang (not to be confused with the one from geniuses) and the witch hunt for the unscientific none believers began.

All was well until sometime later a computer geek came forth and exclaimed 'you be wrong, for I have modeled your big bang and the resulting universe looks nothing like the universe we live in'. Once again in the kingdom of not-PEARS much name calling and sulking began.

Then from the darkness another Nobel scientist came forth without even circumstantial evidence and proclaimed let there be dark matter and once again in the land of not-PEARS all was well as the big bang model was once again gospel.

Much time passed in this happy land until another EVP was recorded from a radio telescope and upon hearing it another Nobel scientist gathered his disciples and lay siege to the good land of not-PEARS. Much name calling and hair pulling resumed until all agreed that multiple non sequential big was the new Grail and proclaimed let there be light. But fear not even though there was no dark matter in this new universe it was never pseudo science, it was simply a wrong turn.

[ShadowofaDoubt]

Circumstantial evidence isn’t the same as repeatable evidence, which is what science requires

Well let's take a closer look at that and as you see American Physical Society as good science let's look at them as well.

A long long time ago in a physics lab not so different from the ones at PEARS, a Nobel scientist noticed an EVP from a radio telescope. From this circumstantial EVP evidence he concluded that the universe was created in a single big bang (not to be confused with the one from geniuses) and the witch hunt for the unscientific none believers began.

All was well until sometime later a computer geek came forth and exclaimed 'you be wrong, for I have modeled your big bang and the resulting universe looks nothing like the universe we live in'. Once again in the kingdom of not-PEARS much name calling and sulking began.

Then from the darkness another Nobel scientist came forth without even circumstantial evidence and proclaimed let there be dark matter and once again in the land of not-PEARS all was well as the big bang model was once again gospel.

Much time passed in this happy land until another EVP was recorded from a radio telescope and upon hearing it another Nobel scientist gathered his disciples and lay siege to the good land of not-PEARS. Much name calling and hair pulling resumed until all agreed that multiple non sequential big was the new Grail and proclaimed let there be light. But fear not even though there was no dark matter in this new universe it was never pseudo science, it was simply a wrong turn.

Are you trying to compare parapsychology to our current cosmological model? What is the point you're trying to get across here? And what is circumstantial about observing the expansion of the universe, cosmic background radiation, and the effects of dark matter? The current model is a postulate that is the simplest model that is in agreement with all of the observable data. How does that relate to parapsychology?

[The Paranormal Skeptic]

Are you trying to compare parapsychology to our current cosmological model? What is the point you're trying to get across here? And what is circumstantial about observing the expansion of the universe, cosmic background radiation, and the effects of dark matter? The current model is a postulate that is the simplest model that is in agreement with all of the observable data. How does that relate to parapsychology?

I'm with you on this one, I have no idea what the point of the post is.

[ROGER]

I think we Americans tend to want everything to have rational and Science based answers as to what is now termed Paranormal as is with every thing else . But in the last 50 to 100 years our accumulated knowledge of our world and environment has increased a thousand fold. Maybe some thing in the next few years will explain it all, but till then let those who wish to search for what they can. They may get Some of it right!

[Realityless]

Are you trying to compare parapsychology to our current cosmological model?

No highlighting double standards in evidence requirements.

What is the point you're trying to get across here?

See above question

And what is circumstantial about observing the expansion of the universe, cosmic background radiation, and the effects of dark matter?

Nothing other than dark matter is looking more like pseudo science by the day.

The current model is a postulate that is the simplest model that is in agreement with all of the observable data.

Doesn’t make it scientific fact though does it, merely opinion; see the above double standard point.

How does that relate to parapsychology?

Which the double standard or scientific opinion becoming scientific fact?

[Laura50]

i would love to see some serious research done by the scientific community as well. i think perhaps they aren't going to bother until one of these 'claims' bears fruit, and by that i mean something tangible, something they can see feel and examine.

damn that empirical evidence. it always gets in the way of a good story lol

I wish we could throw a couple dozen Scientist in a haunted house and have them see a ghost or three. Unfortunately, Scientist will be the ones to make the call on anything paranormal being taken seriously. I think it's the most important subject there is but if a Scientist can't control it, they don't want to have anything to do with it.

[JGirl]

I wish we could throw a couple dozen Scientist in a haunted house and have them see a ghost or three. Unfortunately, Scientist will be the ones to make the call on anything paranormal being taken seriously. I think it's the most important subject there is but if a Scientist can't control it, they don't want to have anything to do with it.

science will make the call on anything paranormal being taken seriously in the scientific community, of course. that doesn't mean it's not taken seriously outside of the scientific community. unfortunately, those parties are not bringing forth any data (evidence) to support their findings. how can we deal with something we cannot even prove exists?

Edited December 9, 2010 by JGirl

[Sevastiel]

science will make the call on anything paranormal being taken seriously in the scientific community, of course. that doesn't mean it's not taken seriously outside of the scientific community. unfortunately, those parties are not bringing forth any data (evidence) to support their findings. how can we deal with something we cannot even prove exists?

In our own communities and groups.

Way it has to be until we reach a point where we can, definitively, via some manner of measure, proof it one way or the other.

Whether or not these things are real isn't really a question. That they are reported over such a broad spectrum, over such a long term, is proof that there is something there. The question is not "Does it exist?". It's "Why or how does it exist?". If it's purely psychological, then psych-studies and research combined with the measurable facets of medical science will eventually pin-point it.

The difficulty is the broad nature of the issue from the perspective of these fields, and the scope of the inner workings of the brain and the mind. Not having access to more 'live specimens' only makes the task more difficult and restricts studies to alternative methods of mapping and measuring these inner workings, leaving any empiricals subject to representing echoes and facsimiles of the original in many cases. The tests are also subject to the bias of limited sampling, which only studies of the population at large could really overcome; not an ideal financial pursuit.

If it's not purely psychological, then the future discoveries of potential energy or fields could very well add additional insights. I really don't see why it's so difficult to concede that these sorts of discoveries are possible in light of the discoveries of the last few centuries. Physical science focuses on what's on the table before it and only moves on to other things as what's before it leads to them. Time is the only real variable here IMO.

[JGirl]

In our own communities and groups.

Way it has to be until we reach a point where we can, definitively, via some manner of measure, proof it one way or the other.

Whether or not these things are real isn't really a question. That they are reported over such a broad spectrum, over such a long term, is proof that there is something there. The question is not "Does it exist?". It's "Why or how does it exist?".

i get what you are saying. i was pointing out in my posts that in science 'does it exist' most certainly is the question that comes first.

If it's purely psychological, then psych-studies and research combined with the measurable facets of medical science will eventually pin-point it.

i don't believe it's purely psychological in many cases, and i'm sure medical science already has that figured out too.

I really don't see why it's so difficult to concede that these sorts of discoveries are possible in light of the discoveries of the last few centuries.

i assume you are referring to people in general? as i have no problem accepting that there are things going on that defy science as we know it now.

[Sevastiel]

A different approach would be to say that it is, in fact, psych; but that the spark from this basis is what catalyzes the resultant physiological manifestations which lead to the outcomes themselves. That would only explain the psychic experiences though and not external manifestations or shared group experiences, since it is highly unlikely (read as : nearly impossible) that any selected group's individual members would all be identical physiological matches.

When I stated that "I really don't see why it's so difficult to concede that these sorts of discoveries are possible in light of the discoveries of the last few centuries.", I was referring to the discoveries and subsequent applications of electricity, magnetics, various wave-forms (infrared, microwave, tropospheric scatter, cellular and other wireless, and so on). We give off pheromones (?) and other subtle, yet measurable energy. Who's to say there isn't something else in all of that which we're missing because we haven't applied the correct instrumentation yet?

Of course, your statement is also applicable for these same reasons.

[The Paranormal Skeptic]

Who's to say there isn't something else in all of that which we're missing because we haven't applied the correct instrumentation yet?

Who is saying that it doesnt exist or that the possibility isnt out there? Again that isnt the question that is being asked.

[ShadowofaDoubt]

Are you trying to compare parapsychology to our current cosmological model?

No highlighting double standards in evidence requirements.

What is the point you're trying to get across here?

See above question

And what is circumstantial about observing the expansion of the universe, cosmic background radiation, and the effects of dark matter?

Nothing other than dark matter is looking more like pseudo science by the day.

The current model is a postulate that is the simplest model that is in agreement with all of the observable data.

Doesn’t make it scientific fact though does it, merely opinion; see the above double standard point.

How does that relate to parapsychology?

Which the double standard or scientific opinion becoming scientific fact?

Explain the double standard, please. the evidence for the ΛCDM model is measurable. We can observe the effect of dark matter's mass. We can repeatedly detect cosmic background radiation. Also, you said scientific fact and I don't believe there are facts in science. The current model is more than an opinion, it's based on a lot of relevant data. When has parapsychology ever produced significant findings?

What do you mean "dark matter is looking more like pseudoscience everyday"? Did you read that somewhere? Wouldn't that just be someones "opinion" by your perspective?

[Sevastiel]

Who is saying that it doesnt exist or that the possibility isnt out there? Again that isnt the question that is being asked.

Yet still relevant for one simple rationale : If you can't measure it, then there's no point wasting time, at the moment, trying to do so until you can. So it still pertains to the "Where are the serious Scientific Studies?" part of the question. The answer, derived from my own track, is that they have already run the course they can run for now. When the "next sub-atomic" or "next electricity" or "next new anything" comes along, it might add additional insight. Until then, we've exhausted physical sciences' capability and patience on the subject.

[kiddglock]

Also talking about a Freudian psychoanalytic theory in a branch of science that does work, doesn't even come close to why universities don't teach parapsychology anymore (with the exception of maybe 2 in the world) that's like saying don't teach evolution because it is only a theory. It is also to my understand most psychologists don't even follow Id, they say its to easy of an explaination. So again I am sorry I don't see your point, teaching a theory in a branch of science that works opposed to teaching a science that doesn't produce results are two major major differences.

How exactly does Psychology "work"? Most Psychologists "don't follow the id"? Ftw?

[kiddglock]

I think we Americans tend to want everything to have rational and Science based answers as to what is now termed Paranormal as is with every thing else . But in the last 50 to 100 years our accumulated knowledge of our world and environment has increased a thousand fold. Maybe some thing in the next few years will explain it all, but till then let those who wish to search for what they can. They may get Some of it right!

+1

[kitone1]

With all of the hoopla and shows on Paranormal Investigating ( Ghosts ) going on , and the supposed " evidence " they have , why are there no serious Scientific studies being done?.....Why are there no Universities , or Scientists doing studies to support these claims?

I this Mystery really has evidence , I would think it would be taken seriously , and above would be happening.....There is obviously money in it , or is it just " entertainment " value with no merit?

Actually there are Universities and highly educated (over Masters level) individuals involved with paranormal studies they stay in a academic arena that makes their work harder to follow for most. Some just wont read past a few sentences or a headline but others spend lifetimes never looking up from their studies. Seek that kind and you will find cases/subjects that supersede TV any day. a few of my personal links are below you might find the material interesting.

A very highly respected University with a parapsychology program

http://www.koestler-parapsychology.psy.ed.ac.uk/

Try reading David Rountree quantum Psychics in paranormal, this will keep you busy for a while!

http://www.spinvestigations.org/quantum_physics.html

Edited December 11, 2010 by kitone1

[ShadowofaDoubt]

Try reading David Rountree quantum Psychics in paranormal, this will keep you busy for a while!

http://www.spinvestigations.org/quantum_physics.html

I just read the paper on ghosts. It's all double talk, mumbo jumbo. He doesn't understand the terms he's talking about

[The Paranormal Skeptic]

Anytime I see a person within the paranormal community reference quantum physics, I know it's automatic bunk. Just mix some scientific words with some scary paranormal terms and bam instant credibility in the field. ThIs is why so many people get excited when a MD defends NDE's or if a PhD supports the paranormal despite all the other DR's that have stronger cases against it.

One of my favorite quotes was said by a man named Richard Feynman who was an American physicist known for his work in the path integral formulation of quantum mechanics, the theory of quantum electrodynamics. He said if a physicist can explain quantum physics, then he doesn't understand quantum physics. Meaning that people who research this for a living don't understand it yet.

Edited December 11, 2010 by The Paranormal Skeptic

[ShadowofaDoubt]

Here's some select quotes:

While it may be that warps, fields, wormholes and vortices can provide conduits for alien 
civilizations, and crypto-beasties, they are most likely also the mechanism that allows 
other manifestations to interact in our world from adjacent universes, or other 
dimensions of space and or time.

Also, some areas tend to be far more active than

others. Why would this be so? First of all, not every location may be “haunted”. Also we

need to take into account external factors such as the variances of the Earth’s magnetic

field, space weather conditions, cosmic ray bombardment, inconsistencies in the Earth’s

Geomagnetic shield, underlying rock strata that creates unusual geomagnetic activity,

and other factors which in turn causes reality or our perception of it to respond

differently. There are some researchers out there who attribute this to distortions in the

laws of physics. On the contrary, I believe these things occur because of the laws of

physics. You folks who believe differently need to go back to school and specifically

study not just physics, but quantum mechanics.

But we do know something about the mechanics of these apparitions or

effects. We know that ghostly activity is related to abnormal unexplainable

electromagnetic activity. We have also discovered that this EMF is emergent, or that it

appears in our environment from no apparent source. Also associated with these events

at an extremely localized area associated with it, is time anomalies, gravitational

fluctuations, elevated ion counts, temperature fluctuations, gamma radiation bursts,

varying levels of ultraviolet light, elevated static charges, magnetic anomalies, and

increases in air conductance. We have postulated that these may not be created by the

“haunts” themselves, rather by the conduit that facilitates this interaction. We have also

hypothesized that apparitions may be the result of energy projection and holographic

boundaries associated with wormhole formation.

There's more, but it's getting a little too long...

[The Paranormal Skeptic]

Here's some select quotes:

While it may be that warps, fields, wormholes and vortices can provide conduits for alien 
civilizations, and crypto-beasties, they are most likely also the mechanism that allows 
other manifestations to interact in our world from adjacent universes, or other 
dimensions of space and or time.

But we do know something about the mechanics of these apparitions or

effects. We know that ghostly activity is related to abnormal unexplainable

electromagnetic activity.

This man would lose all credibility in the field of science if he indeed worked in it.