9/11

[quillius]

Oh quillius come back and save me from this foolishness.

I dont see how much help I can be, you two are far more knowledgable and any points specific to discussion made by me would be irrelevant.

Having said that I did start the thread, the main reason being was an attempt to really see if there were many different conspiracies or whether they all really revolved around one or two possibilities. I have found that, as you pointed out earlier, that they so far do all merge at some point with small differences in the conspiracy.

I have come to realise that I really do not know what this can all prove and more to the point, what possible outcome could come out of this all.

As I briefly mentioned last time a new 'investigation' would lead to the same cover up (assuming cover up to start with) as surely they have enough power to do as they please!

To summarise I am none the wiser as to what happened and dont see this changing in the future.

[flyingswan]

How pompous you are to presume what I did or did not do.

I spend hours searching and checking facts.

Of course I checked, that’s how I know there is only one confirmed eyewitness.

No presumption involved. When I asked if you checked with the named witness, you said there was no reason to as the claim was completely incredible.

Sorry but you are talking rubbish - I have not made a specific claim in the way of numbers and neither have you provided any evidence relative to the Pentagon impact discussed.

I showed what the mean deceleration force was, and that it was borderline survivable. You, on the other hand, have been claiming all along that there would be no recognisable bodies, "bloody smear" was one of your expressions.

Such pictures of the Pentagon victims are exactly what have been made public.

Clearly, you didn’t check.

Really? Were they all just "bloody smears"? Or were they the recognisable bodies that you claimed could not possibly exist?

That’s rich considering the majority of your complaints to the 9/11 false flag attack are based on incredulity. For example, you argued that thermite could not cut the WTC columns until a real engineer actually tested the theory and proved you incorrect.

Something I'm still waiting to happen, incidentally.

What I remember actually doing was calculating how big your demo column cutter would be if it was scaled up to WTC column size, and that it would be very difficult to hide such large objects in a building. That isn't incredulity, it's doing a little basic maths.

But no, in this case there is more than opinion: -

.

.

.Eric Thompson after watching a WTC jumper’s body strike the pavement: -

“There was no human resemblance whatsoever”.

James Logozzo, witnessing the same as above: -

“When she hit, there was nothing left”.

Wally Miller, coroner at Flight 93 crash site: -

“I stopped being coroner after about 20 minutes because there were no bodies there.”

So you see, it is documented fact that aircraft and especially human bodies do not fare well in head on, high speed impacts with solid objects.

We're not talking about a solid object, but a building. Just to remind you again, parts of the aircraft penetrated nearly 100 metres past the first wall, and I would expect the fuselage contents, seats and passengers, to be some of the parts that penetrated furthest.

As said, I accept your personal opinion that recognisable passenger bodies still strapped to seats were found sitting intact amongst the small debris after the Pentagon impact.

Don't misquote me. I have not expressed any such opinion. My opinion is that you accused someone of spreading "sick lies" on the basis of a flimsy grasp of the physics of aircraft impacts and a huge desire to believe that anything contrary to the official story must be true.

[el midgetron]

Ok, so what have we learned? Jet fuel can melt steel (as noted by witnesses in the aftermath of the WTC) but can't melt or burn a nylon strap of an airplane seatbelt (as noted by witnesses at the Pentagon) .

[flyingswan]

Ok, so what have we learned? Jet fuel can melt steel (as noted by witnesses in the aftermath of the WTC) but can't melt or burn a nylon strap of an airplane seatbelt (as noted by witnesses at the Pentagon) .

If you learned that, you've mis-educated yourself.

[flyingswan]

To summarise I am none the wiser as to what happened and dont see this changing in the future.

The Curse of Klass was originally applied to believers that UFOs are extra-terrestrial, but with small changes in wording it applies equally to believers in any conspiracy theory.

No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

[quillius]

The Curse of Klass was originally applied to believers that UFOs are extra-terrestrial, but with small changes in wording it applies equally to believers in any conspiracy theory.

No matter how long you live, you will never know any more about UFOs than you know today. You will never know any more about what UFOs really are, or where they come from. You will never know any more about what the U.S. Government really knows about UFOs than you know today. As you lie on your own death-bed you will be as mystified about UFOs as you are today. And you will remember this curse.

It does seem that way Flyingswan!!

with every conspiracy there is so much muddy water, so no point searching through the mud to see whats really in the water...we would have to extract all the mud, which is impossible... I suppose this then leads to the curse of Klass.

[flyingswan]

with every conspiracy there is so much muddy water, so no point searching through the mud to see whats really in the water...we would have to extract all the mud, which is impossible... I suppose this then leads to the curse of Klass.

I think Klass's point was that you couldn't uncover what was not there to be uncovered in the first place. However much you look.

[Q24]

Ok, so what have we learned? Jet fuel can melt steel (as noted by witnesses in the aftermath of the WTC) but can't melt or burn a nylon strap of an airplane seatbelt (as noted by witnesses at the Pentagon) .

The rules change at a whim

Anything to keep the official story alive.

Having said that I did start the thread, the main reason being was an attempt to really see if there were many different conspiracies or whether they all really revolved around one or two possibilities. I have found that, as you pointed out earlier, that they so far do all merge at some point with small differences in the conspiracy.

I have come to realise that I really do not know what this can all prove and more to the point, what possible outcome could come out of this all.

I’m glad you found your answer – there are many different theories though they are all in agreement that the official story regarding 9/11 neither adds up nor is best fit to the wider facts; they all agree that the event was a manufactured pretext for war.

As for the possible outcome, I’m sure some people would like to see an overhaul of the U.S. government or Bush and Cheney tried for treason and war crimes. Without conditions for a new investigation, this is not realistically possible.

The most hopeful outcome, I think I mentioned it before, is simply in raising public awareness of how the world works and specifically to show that the reasons we have been given for war do not add up.

As they say, knowledge is power.

What difference can this make?

In democratic countries it can allow people to better consider their vote, for example in avoiding potential corruption or pro-war politicians. Where political decisions are forced upon the public it allows us to make informed decisions about how to react - look at the demonstrations in Egypt getting results right now.

In the 2001 UK general election I voted for one of the big two parties, both of which supported following America to needless war.

In February 2003 when millions of people around the world were on the streets protesting the Iraq war, I, like most, was sitting at home.

I acted this way because I was ignorant.

Understanding world events is a part of allowing me to make better decisions in future.

Perhaps with enough awareness we can actually make a difference.

It didn’t all end with 9/11.

[quillius]

I think Klass's point was that you couldn't uncover what was not there to be uncovered in the first place. However much you look.

in which case I didnt understand to start with.

I would then tend not to agree that the same can be said for conspiracies.

If we witness a UFO, then (as in many cases) they have an explanation whether it be balloons, plasmas or one of the other 100 earthly explanations. However those that are still unexplained, if one of these cases was actually 'ET' in a spaceship but have only been once and never returned then I agree with Klass, we will never know. With something like 9/11, we again may never know all the facts but at least there is ample evidence to say what happened....the said evidence is missing regarding 'ET'.

hope this makes some sort of sense

[quillius]

The rules change at a whim

Anything to keep the official story alive.

I’m glad you found your answer – there are many different theories though they are all in agreement that the official story regarding 9/11 neither adds up nor is best fit to the wider facts; they all agree that the event was a manufactured pretext for war.

As for the possible outcome, I’m sure some people would like to see an overhaul of the U.S. government or Bush and Cheney tried for treason and war crimes. Without conditions for a new investigation, this is not realistically possible.

The most hopeful outcome, I think I mentioned it before, is simply in raising public awareness of how the world works and specifically to show that the reasons we have been given for war do not add up.

As they say, knowledge is power.

What difference can this make?

In democratic countries it can allow people to better consider their vote, for example in avoiding potential corruption or pro-war politicians. Where political decisions are forced upon the public it allows us to make informed decisions about how to react - look at the demonstrations in Egypt getting results right now.

In the 2001 UK general election I voted for one of the big two parties, both of which supported following America to needless war.

In February 2003 when millions of people around the world were on the streets protesting the Iraq war, I, like most, was sitting at home.

I acted this way because I was ignorant.

Understanding world events is a part of allowing me to make better decisions in future.

Perhaps with enough awareness we can actually make a difference.

It didn’t all end with 9/11.

thanks Q24 for all your contributions, and summarising above your views on 'outcomes', much appreciated.

[flyingswan]

in which case I didnt understand to start with.

I would then tend not to agree that the same can be said for conspiracies.

If we witness a UFO, then (as in many cases) they have an explanation whether it be balloons, plasmas or one of the other 100 earthly explanations. However those that are still unexplained, if one of these cases was actually 'ET' in a spaceship but have only been once and never returned then I agree with Klass, we will never know. With something like 9/11, we again may never know all the facts but at least there is ample evidence to say what happened....the said evidence is missing regarding 'ET'.

hope this makes some sort of sense

My opinion would be that the same mindset that sees something unexplained in the sky and says "alien visitor" also sees some perceived anomaly in the historical record and says "conspiracy". While is some cases there may be too little evidence for a good explanation, in other cases good evidence is rejected because the believer wants there to be an alien or a conspiracy.

[quillius]

My opinion would be that the same mindset that sees something unexplained in the sky and says "alien visitor" also sees some perceived anomaly in the historical record and says "conspiracy". While is some cases there may be too little evidence for a good explanation, in other cases good evidence is rejected because the believer wants there to be an alien or a conspiracy.

I do agree and now see the similarities as described regarding certain mindsets. I suppose therein lies the difference and see visitation as a very small possibility. If I was to see a UFO I would be 99.99% certain that there is some earthly explanation and allow a 0.01% chance of it being ET, whereas someone with blind faith, as you described above, works on the same probabilities but in reverse...i.e. 99.99% sure its ET...

[Shang Di]

Hi Q24, firstly apologies for delayed response. I have given this some thought and would like to ask a few questions, I am struggling with time to give this the response it deserves, so I will post one very soon with questions on your three points plus also my opinions...for what its worth. As you can tell I am no where near as knowledgable as some of you guys on the subject but am keen to keep learning...

speak soon

This is just one of anti-semitic thoughts a result from the book "Learned Elders of Zion." Let's not blame, the Jews if they prosper anywhere they go.

Putting all evils in this world to the Jews would be a HITLER thinking. Learn from history.

If ever there are conspiracies around its not only Jewish but how about the Freemasons in America the so-called builders of democracy.

If you know about the 5 plans of Freemasons then its happening. The plan to Wage War Against The Muslims, The Economic Sabotage of U.S. Economy.

Annihilate Catholicism, New Age Movement as alternative Religion------------------- The One World Government now in the process,

European Union, ASEAN, groupings of nations by region till the One World Government.

[Q24]

This is just one of anti-semitic thoughts a result from the book "Learned Elders of Zion." Let's not blame, the Jews if they prosper anywhere they go.

Putting all evils in this world to the Jews would be a HITLER thinking. Learn from history.

Was the Lavon Affair just an anti-semitic thought too?

The occurance of the holocaust does not give certain Jewish groups a free pass to carry on as they please.

And why did Hitler hate the Jews anyway?

He wasn’t the first to do so.

Not enough people seem to question that.

[flyingswan]

And why did Hitler hate the Jews anyway?

He wasn’t the first to do so.

Because he believed in conspiracy theories, specifically the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There is a section in Mein Kampf where he displays the true conspiracist mindset, saying that the Protocols confirm his beliefs, therefore they must be true even if they are forgeries. To quote:

The Frankfurter Zeitung is forever moaning that [the Protocols] are supposed to be a forgery; which is the surest proof that they are genuine. But that is not what matters...What matters is that they uncover...the nature of the Jewish people...and their final aims.

[SHaYap]

Evidently there was a conspiracy, when there is a concerted effort to conceal and evade facts from being scrutinized before coming to a satisfactory conclusion constitutes a conspiracy.

The Towers had to go for more reasons than just being a liability to the US economy at that stage in time.

Who ? Too many had partial and impartial interests for 911 happening the way it did, not only the US administration of the day. The Saudi Royals too have big stakes and interests for the events of 911.

So too do the Zionists. Strange bedfellows ? A stone for the Saudi Royals at Osama and the same one for Saddam to benefit the Zionists. The US gets Afghanistan and Baghdad while the Zionists only have to play with Iran.

Happy bedfellows all round. Too bad they didn't succeed in everything they hoped 911 would bring.

If only China India Pakistan and Russia didn't want a bigger slice of the pie.

[Q24]

Because he believed in conspiracy theories, specifically the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. There is a section in Mein Kampf where he displays the true conspiracist mindset, saying that the Protocols confirm his beliefs, therefore they must be true even if they are forgeries. To quote:

The Frankfurter Zeitung is forever moaning that [the Protocols] are supposed to be a forgery; which is the surest proof that they are genuine. But that is not what matters...What matters is that they uncover...the nature of the Jewish people...and their final aims.

His opinion was not formed by the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He is saying that whether the document is genuine or not was of no concern (i.e. “not what matters”); it supported the belief he held in any case and so could be used for propaganda purposes.

I think there is more to the reasons behind the Holocaust than simple conspiracy theory.

It appears more to do with Jewish groups failing to integrate, and worse, meddling in the affairs of their adopted societies.

It’s been the case throughout history and is still ongoing today (see disproportional Jewish influence within the U.S. government).

As they say, there’s no smoke without fire.

[SHaYap]

Weren't there more people of other faiths than the Jews that died in those camps?

Hitler evidently didn't really specially favored the Jews but made a lot of propaganda with the Jews as scapegoats

[Q24]

Weren't there more people of other faiths than the Jews that died in those camps?

Hitler evidently didn't really specially favored the Jews but made a lot of propaganda with the Jews as scapegoats

Yes, millions of (non-Jewish) Poles, Romanians, disabled and homosexuals were also exterminated.

Although the Holocaust certainly happened, I do believe that the commonly touted figure of 6 million Jewish deaths is manufactured. It is apparent that the specific number held some significance to Jewish groups long before the Holocaust - it was thought to be the number of deaths necessary before the Jewish people could return to their land. Now, not personally believing in prophecies coming true, I have to believe that the figure pushed on us (so important that it is enforced by law in some cases!) has been somewhat fit to suit.

From the history we have available to us, I agree it seems that the Jews were made a scapegoat by Hitler and the Nazis. But still, there is no smoke without fire. And the next large-scale persecution of the Jews could easily happen again one day if they do not learn from the past… which apparently they haven’t.

[SHaYap]

They keep learning trying to make their prophecies happen

That figure of 6 million being symbolic is quite generally accepted but not comfortably talked about

even Max Dimont in his book "Jews, God and History" briefly tippy toed past the numbers

[exspecialbranchboy]

Hi,

I have seen a few various debates on 9-11 and I am very interested in actually pinning down the most common. To do this I would welcome the following from anyone with a theory:

a) culprit

how they did it

c) motive

thank you all in advance.

The only conspiracy is that both CIA and FBI appreared to ignore the intelligence from Europe that we found following the arrest of an Al Qaeda cell in Germany that 9/11 was being planned by terrorist cells in NE USA. Al Qaeda planned 9/11 to the last detail and from that followed more attacks. Watch this link to show the motive of Al Qaeda:

[Dr. Stevo]

The only conspiracy is that both CIA and FBI appreared to ignore the intelligence from Europe that we found following the arrest of an Al Qaeda cell in Germany that 9/11 was being planned by terrorist cells in NE USA. Al Qaeda planned 9/11 to the last detail and from that followed more attacks. Watch this link to show the motive of Al Qaeda:

I totally agree with the above comment! I've seen this video and it led me to the authors book! I do not give praise out lightly, But I was completely surprised by this book! It's brilliant and gave me an insight into the threat of terrorism in the UK & US! I would recommend all of you to buy this book: A Dirty Game - A David Hurst Story.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Dirty-Game-David-Hurst-Story/dp/1609118537/ref

[Q24]

The only conspiracy is that both CIA and FBI appreared to ignore the intelligence from Europe that we found following the arrest of an Al Qaeda cell in Germany that 9/11 was being planned by terrorist cells in NE USA. Al Qaeda planned 9/11 to the last detail and from that followed more attacks. Watch this link to show the motive of Al Qaeda:

Well that video was a waste of 5 minutes.

It has a total sum of zero information except the title of some book at the end.

Is advertising like this allowed on UM?

Oh and I’d say that the main body of the FBI didn’t ignore anything – those guys had investigations of the hijackers blocked prior to 9/11 and have complained more than once of having their hands tied by Washington. An FBI agent has stated it was as though the hijackers were receiving protection in the United States.

And elements of the CIA didn’t just ignore intelligence from Europe, they ignored intelligence from their own agents, for instance, failing to act despite tracking the hijackers and knowing that they were in the country.

Then there’s President Bush who ignored the intelligence brief entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US” which sat on his desk a month prior 9/11… despite it outlining a plot involving airliner hijackings and the WTC as a possible target.

This is not to mention other intelligence/governmet assets, foreign and domestic, who were all over ‘Al Qaeda’ and the hijackers. It is these groups who at least in part facilitated the 9/11 attack. To pretend that a group of terrorists worked alone yet had these ‘coincidental’ interactions and managed to slip through multiple nets is hopelessly naive.

So not only is your statement wrong but the book is most likely rubbish too.

[Dr. Stevo]

Well that video was a waste of 5 minutes.

It has a total sum of zero information except the title of some book at the end.

Is advertising like this allowed on UM?

Oh and I’d say that the main body of the FBI didn’t ignore anything – those guys had investigations of the hijackers blocked prior to 9/11 and have complained more than once of having their hands tied by Washington. An FBI agent has stated it was as though the hijackers were receiving protection in the United States.

And elements of the CIA didn’t just ignore intelligence from Europe, they ignored intelligence from their own agents, for instance, failing to act despite tracking the hijackers and knowing that they were in the country.

Then there’s President Bush who ignored the intelligence brief entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US” which sat on his desk a month prior 9/11… despite it outlining a plot involving airliner hijackings and the WTC as a possible target.

This is not to mention other intelligence/governmet assets, foreign and domestic, who were all over ‘Al Qaeda’ and the hijackers. It is these groups who at least in part facilitated the 9/11 attack. To pretend that a group of terrorists worked alone yet had these ‘coincidental’ interactions and managed to slip through multiple nets is hopelessly naive.

So not only is your statement wrong but the book is most likely rubbish too.

This book is written by a counter-terrorism expert with 27 years experience in the area and also lecturers. What credentials and evidence do you have to back up your mere assertions???

[danteh strabaneman]

Well that video was a waste of 5 minutes.

It has a total sum of zero information except the title of some book at the end.

Is advertising like this allowed on UM?

Oh and I’d say that the main body of the FBI didn’t ignore anything – those guys had investigations of the hijackers blocked prior to 9/11 and have complained more than once of having their hands tied by Washington. An FBI agent has stated it was as though the hijackers were receiving protection in the United States.

And elements of the CIA didn’t just ignore intelligence from Europe, they ignored intelligence from their own agents, for instance, failing to act despite tracking the hijackers and knowing that they were in the country.

Then there’s President Bush who ignored the intelligence brief entitled “Bin Laden Determined to Strike in the US” which sat on his desk a month prior 9/11… despite it outlining a plot involving airliner hijackings and the WTC as a possible target.

This is not to mention other intelligence/governmet assets, foreign and domestic, who were all over ‘Al Qaeda’ and the hijackers. It is these groups who at least in part facilitated the 9/11 attack. To pretend that a group of terrorists worked alone yet had these ‘coincidental’ interactions and managed to slip through multiple nets is hopelessly naive.

So not only is your statement wrong but the book is most likely rubbish too.

Being Irish and from the north from a town that was the most bombed during the Irish troubles, I can tell you that a terrorist group can operate quite well 'alone', but they too have people on the inside of government agencies. The Provisional IRA were close to killing the British cabinet in 1984. Sometimes it hurts a population of a nation to think their security services can allow such acts to happen. Al Qaeda tried to blow up the World Trade Centre in the 1990's, there was the first warning. It could be as you say the FBI hands were tied as the CIA wanted it to happen to get legitimacy from US citizens for the USA to invade the middle east. I've seen the link and it's good as it hits home the result of ignoring the intel from Europe in 2000, a second Pearl Harbour me thinks.