Would it be acceptable?

[Leonardo]

One does NOT have to be seeking, or asking for, a spiritual experience to have one. Saul was not on the road to damascus. I never was, not even subconsciously. However i accept sherrizzle's pov that we all define our experiences through our minds, concepts, language, and terminologies. And so, i may perceive a spiritual experience, and even a god, where another does not. That does not make me "wrong", necessarily, however.

I agree, MW, but neither does it make you 'right'. Belief in either extreme of theism and atheism is based on the dismissal of the other pov without proper consideration (imo) of the rationality of that dismissal. The believer may have a rationale for their belief, but a rationale does not have to be rational.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Leonardo

[Mr Walker]

I agree, MW, but neither does it make you 'right'. Belief in either extreme of theism and atheism is based on the dismissal of the other pov without proper consideration (imo) of the rationality of that dismissal. The believer may have a rationale for their belief, but a rationale does not have to be rational.

I agree with the above. Sherrizle and others, however, dismiss the POSSIBILITY of me being right.Ie my experiences being evidence of a real objective "god." As far as i can determine they do so based solely on the BELIEF that such a thing is not possible.

In doing so they refuse to even contemplate the extrapolations of what that would mean. They insist god cannot be real and, based on that insistence, work back to create alternate logical possibiliites.. So, as an example, "god isnt real, therefore he cant perform miracles, therefore miracles cant exist, therefore anyone who thinks they experience one is deluded or subjectifying a natural experience."

Thats just a belief based set of suppositions.

Turn it around "I see/experience a miracle. Thus i know miracles can be real physical things. I wonder what causes them, and how they are connected to the rest of reality. Perhaps, given other contextual evidences, they are the work of a powerful entity who interacts with people and cares for them."

And, of course, if you should happen to "meet" this powerful entity, and observe "his" miracles, while he explains or contextualises them to you, then that circumvents the longer set of logical potentialities.

An open mind looks at experiential reality and logically determines what is possible and what is not. It does not dismiss one possibility based on prexisting disbelief.

Even allowing for the fact that i name my entity "god," and even allowing for personal interpretations I may put on the nature of this entity, its source, motivations, etc., it is a fact that it exists, and a fact tha tit manifests in forms and energies as realand physical as any otherm just as much as it is a fact that my dog exists.

Its physical existence shifts the balance of potentialities and probabilities in ways sherrizle refuses to countenance because she does not BELIEVE its existence is real, independent, and objective.

And so she is forced to attribute incorrect motivations to my nature and life because that is the only way she can make sense of it. Just as she can't understand the motivations and drivers of the writers of the bible (supposing their experiences were anything like my own) she cant understand my own, because she jus t doesnt accept as possible one of (among many) of the realities of my life for nearly 40 years.

I understand how many people see the writers of the bible as about establishing power and authority but those people have never experienced one on one a personal and physical relationship with god or the empowerments and transformations that such a relationship creates in a human being. Once one has, one can see other possible legitimate explanations for those writer's words. They were responding to the sort of life experiences i have had, as rationally and as best they could in their cultural contexts.

I doubt i can change her opinion, but i cant allow her (or others) to write publicly false attributions motivations or drivers based on what she assumes must be my own.

God is not crutch or something for the needy. God is a being who can share with one, power and understandings that can transform a person and enhance their human potential.

God is not always a human construct based on human psychology, although god can be, and often is this as well. God is a sapient, physical, independent, entity. My life experiencese lead me to understand that any human can access /connect or interact with this entity, as part of the normal natural human condition, as we exist through evolution today.

Maybe im wrong about that, but human history suggests otherwise. I am physically no differnt to any other human, and throughout human history, in every race, culture, and religion, individuals have had similar experiences with this entity human shave come to call it god in all languages and forms. Each person comes to slightly different conclusions, but when one reads the tales of these people one sees the basic similarities.

Without the personal evidences one can assume all such people are mentally ill, delusional or have misunderstood natural forces.

But i know that from within the personal evidences available to such individuals, even a modern man, well educated, mentally and physically well, not under the influence of any drug, logical, rational, and starting from a denial of god, may have a long term, ongoing, physical experience with god, and with various forces and avatars connected with him; like angels the holy spirit and physical miracles (those are in christian terms, but similar aspects exist in every religion and culture under differnt names.)

So maybe iam not "right" but i have a hell of a lot more evidence and logic on my side than sherrizle does on hers (when seen from my perspaective)

I allow her view seems right to her, and is from within her personal evidences and perspectives, but a total lack of evidence can only go so far, when compared with ongoing concrete physical evidences, even where those evidences fall within a personal experience.

Its back to the platypus again. If i see a platypus, from within my personal experiential perspective eg i am an early explorer of australia, that trumps sherizzles' disbelief that a platypus could possibly exist because it falls out side all known animal taxonomy. And this is what scientists at the time maintained, based on their beleifs/understandings of how the world was, and what they persoanlly had seen and understood about animals.

Sherrizle can only maintain the validity of her disbelief, by refusing to believe those personal evidences are possible, and so, stalemate.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Mr Walker

[IamsSon]

I agree, MW, but neither does it make you 'right'. Belief in either extreme of theism and atheism is based on the dismissal of the other pov without proper consideration (imo) of the rationality of that dismissal. The believer may have a rationale for their belief, but a rationale does not have to be rational.

What would you consider proper consideration?

[Mr Walker]

What would you consider proper consideration?

Thats a very good question, and i would be interested in leonardo's answer, but in my view it only pertains to belief/disbelief. In evaluating comparative belief /disbelief positions, and choices, proper consideration is essential.

But it is irrelevant in regard to knowledge. One doesnt have to give proper consideration as to whether a platypus exists, once one has met one . One has to do a lot of other things, perhaps, in considering the platypus.

This is equally true when one knows god is real indpendent and physical. Then one can begin to give proper consideration to the taxonomy, nature, form, function, purpose, etc of god; but it is pointless, any longer, to give any consideration to his existence.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Mr Walker

[IamsSon]

Thats a very good question, and i would be interested in leonardo's answer, but in my view it only pertains to belief/disbelief. In evaluating comparative belief /disbelief positions, and choices, proper consideration is essential.

But it is irrelevant in regard to knowledge. One doesnt have to give proper consideration as to whether a platypus exists, once one has met one . One has to do a lot of other things, perhaps, in considering the platypus.

This is equally true when one knows god is real indpendent and physical. Then one can begin to give proper consideration to the taxonomy, nature, form, function, purpose, etc of god; but it is pointless, any longer, to give any consideration to his existence.

You've gotten to the meat of the issue which is why I'm interested in Leo's response.

As I've stated before if I know 2+2=4 (not just as a notation, but as the experiential fact represented by the notation) why would I give any serious consideration to 2+2=87.58735409? It may be interesting to review the argument being made by someone proposing that, but the argument would have to overcome a lifetime of experience which consistently indicates the only proper answer is 4. I don't know what "proper consideration" would be in such a situation.

Edited December 20, 2010 by IamsSon

[Dr. D]

One does NOT have to be seeking, or asking for, a spiritual experience to have one. Saul was not on the road to damascus. I never was, not even subconsciously. However i accept sherrizzle's pov that we all define our experiences through our minds, concepts, language, and terminologies. And so, i may perceive a spiritual experience, and even a god, where another does not. That does not make me "wrong", necessarily, however.

The problem I have with this assumption Mr. W is that it creates a spiritual chaste system.

Either you are saying that God appears to all people but only some can recognize it, or God appears to His selected few who are converted by the experience or have their faith augmented by it.

In either case, an inner circle is formed of the chosen insiders.

[WoIverine]

Eh...not really seeing the problem here in associating Jesus/God, God/Jesus, (hence the Trinity anyway) if you're not sure, worship both. I honestly think that's the one and only time the "Thou shalt have no other Gods before me" commandment would probably be waved. Besides, it isn't like Satan would be getting anything at all out of doing that, he still loses big in that equation lol.

Edited December 20, 2010 by SpiderCyde

[+Sherapy]

LOL. First, docs example was ABOUT personal revelation.

Second, you cant get into your mindset that god MAY be real, and god MAY give physical manifestations, miracles and revelations, because you assume it cant be. So, in your logic, nothing that flows from such experiences can be possible. Thats ok, but you cant apply your own extrapolations to people who have different physicla experiences.

And you cant "cheat" and just say, "Oh but those experiences cant possibly be real objective experiences" Where is your evidence for such an assumption. How can you know you are right, and other people are wrong?

We've been through this before. Personally i dont attribute my experiences as/to, god because i believe or believed in god, but because of logic. If it fits the parameters of a god, call it god.

(There is no logical reason not to, and many logical reasons to do so. Rigid disbelief is not a logical reason to discount the objective and independent reality of ones own experiences) If you saw a little grey alien, not believing in it would not make it go away, or be non real.

God is a human label for certain qualities in certain entities. You believe all gods are human constructs, so you think it is wrong to call anything god. I know certain entities are real. Thus i dont have your problem in calling them god.

But when it comes to biblical experiences i am open to them, and to their true nature.

Just because my experience are objectively real, does not mean moses or abrahams or pauls were. Maybe paul had a stroke, or a fit, on the road to damascus. But i didnt, and i saw things like paul did.

I am medically fit and certifiably sane. And i can be sure, using a good mind and logic and reason, that what i see and experience is; real, external to my mind, and integrated into the rest of the physical reality around me.

So maybe saul/paul was sane and rational and unaffected by any condition, too. Just maybe god came to paul in the same way he has continued to come to me.

Until you can accept at least the possibility of this, we are living in differnt worlds and realities. And so, your logic leads you to a place, to which the same application of logic, by me, cant take me.

The similarity between my experiences, and accounts throughout history, and religious records, is striking, and because i know mine were real and represent contact with a real, independent entity, then i have an open mind as to the possibility of those other peoples' experiences. You do not. You cannot believe anything other than that all such experiences are delusional, and all such peole mistaken. Why you are so certain of this, i dont know. It is something in your nature i guess. Or it may be that you have experienced delusional or hallucinatory states yourself, and thus assume a commonality with myself and others which does not actually exist.

I dont "believe" any biblical experience is real. Some are obvious human constructs, some are just clearly teaching models. But i dont "disbelieve" some MAY be real. That is the difference.

And i can study the bible as academically and objectively as anyone else. It is just a text, written by men and women for their own purposes. Even if they believe they are messengers of god or actually met god, it makes no differnce. What they write can be pulled apart to understand them, their cultures and how they perceive god and human connection to god.

Anyone could do the same with m,e and my writings. You try and do this at times. But you make two mistakes.

You attribute motivations to me which dont exist, and you assume my experiences MUST be delusional or subjective. In doing this you make it impossible for yourself to accurately understand me or what i write. It is frustratingly amusing at times to see you make conclusions about me that are wildy inaccurate. You must make such conclusions based on what i write here on Um, and yet they are inaccurate. The only logical reason that i can see for this, is that your perceptions and own beliefs cloud your judgement, and you see, in my writings, a persona which does not exist except in your imagination.

Academic dispassion is a mindest one creates, it is not dependent on personal experiences or beliefs.

Having an absolute belief that god cannot be a real physical being, makes it just as difficult to study the bible academically as a text, as being an absolute believer. It immediately wipes out one possible motivator, and thread, of the bible. That makes it impossible to fully understand it, as it was written.

Arguably, the only way to impartially deconstruct the bible, is if you suspend all personal judgement, and investigate the text, and the writers, and how they are embedded in their culture, and study their personal world views.

If you come to it believing saul must have had an epileptic fit, then you can't understand what paul wrote, given that he believed he had a revelation from god.

MW, irregardless your experience is subjective, you are certainly free to interpret it as objective if it floats your boat. But this thread is not about you. You can certainly start a thread that addresses your interpretation and I'll happily contribute. though.

This thread is about a question Doc has asked a lot of times "By what criteria would my divine experience be less valid or believable than those claimed by Christians?"

Edited December 20, 2010 by Sherizzle

[Rock-Star]

This thread is about a question Doc has asked a lot of times "By what criteria would my divine experience be less valid or believable than those claimed by Christians?"

As all experiences are subjective, I don't really believe that any criteria would make it less valid or believable. Of course this only applies to the experiencer himself, as those whose beliefs said experience might contradict will of course take issue and try to disprove it. In truth, what is real to the one having the experience should be all that matters. Unless another had the same divine experience simultaneously, it could never be proved or disproved. Just some thoughts.

[Leonardo]

What would you consider proper consideration?

This is somewhat relevant to my discussion with Stellar and Tiggs on the "Honest Question to Atheists" thread, but proper consideration involves, among other things; the examination of assumptions made in support of the belief; the examination of the prevailing culture (or even the believer's circle of close associates/friends) and whether that has influenced the belief; self-examination for possible emotional/psychological motivations to believe; physiological/physical elements that may be inducing an experience leading to/supporting belief.

For example:

* The assumption that atheism is rational because it is the opposite of theism, and theism is irrational. The assumption that atheists are 'not spiritual' because spirituality is only found in divinity?

* Peer-pressure/a desire to 'fit in'/wanting to be part of a specific group.

* Do I dislike the thought I am 'created by something', that it has 'ownership' of me? Is it comforting to have someone be (in part) responsible for me?

* Seizures can induce experience that seem to be 'of the divine', but they are not like my experience at all. Drugs can induce an experience similar to the descriptions of 'divine ecstasy', therefore all divine ecstasy is simply drug-induced euphoria.

As you can see, the elimination of possibilties, regardless that they remain possibilities (i.e. have not been shown to be untrue, just assumed to be), leads to the absolutist positions of theism and atheism, or to the various absolutist positions within theism ("my god is the god", etc). In my opinion, of course.

Edited December 20, 2010 by Leonardo

[+Link of Hyrule]

In either case, an inner circle is formed of the chosen insiders.

Which, in Christian terms, is not an entirely theologically inconsistent hypothesis. The question of whether we choose God or whether God chooses us (or both) is a debate that has raged for at least as long as Christianity has existed. In one sense, I am certain that you could argue that there is a group of "chosen insiders", simply on the basis of God's sovereignty and omniscience.

However, not all of those "chosen insiders" experience divine revelation. Not every believer is going to have a spiritual experience of God appearing before them to tell them what is right. This is where your post breaks down, since it assumes that all believers have experienced God (either through special revelation or some perception of what is available to all humanity). It also breaks down if we consider that a person who experiences "God" may then turn and worship a different religious deity (experience of God does not necessarily equal the "Christian God").

Just a thought,

~ PA

[IamsSon]

The problem I have with this assumption Mr. W is that it creates a spiritual chaste system.

Either you are saying that God appears to all people but only some can recognize it, or God appears to His selected few who are converted by the experience or have their faith augmented by it.

In either case, an inner circle is formed of the chosen insiders.

What do you mean by "God appears?" I think given the range of experiences even just among the regular Christian posters on UM this needs clarification.

[Dr. D]

What do you mean by "God appears?" I think given the range of experiences even just among the regular Christian posters on UM this needs clarification.

True, but in this thread we have mentionings of "personal experiences."

Appearance needs not be physical.

[Mr Walker]

The problem I have with this assumption Mr. W is that it creates a spiritual chaste system.

Either you are saying that God appears to all people but only some can recognize it, or God appears to His selected few who are converted by the experience or have their faith augmented by it.

In either case, an inner circle is formed of the chosen insiders.

Thas an outsider's perspective. Dont feel bad about being excluded

Seriously; what is, is.

I dont understand or comprehend it all, i just experience and know it. But many faiths say that this connection to, and knowledge of, god IS open to every human. I personally concur. There is nothing about me that makes me physically differnt to any one else.

I can't say why another may not sense, perceive, hear or know god. I can only make logical observations as to why I can. It does not make me innately superior to another or even more fortunate than another. It gives me greater responsibilities and duties, and could be a burden if viewed in the wrong light.

why doesn't every one connect to god? Imagine knowing (not believing) that god is constantly present in you, and all around you, knowing his expectations, because he has been teaching you them for years. Knowing that he understands human failure, but still expects us to achieve our full potential for ourselves and our species.

If you can get your head around what it is like living with that knowledge, and in the presence of a god; and trying to live as that god expects, (for no other reason than to fulfil your own potential) then perhaps you can understand why many humans would chose not to connect to god, despite the physical and psychological benefits it brings.

All knowledge comes with costs as well as benefits. All true knowledge compels its holder to act on it, if they are to be true to them selves and to that knowledge. Most of the people i know chose (consciously or unconsciously) not to live in that reality, and that might be a sensible choice for them.

I mean, eating a diet free of meat, all oils, and based on fruits nuts and legumes, will completely eliminate the damage that causes heart problems.

But how many people would chose to live on tha tdiet even knowing they would never have heart disease and might live 15 to 20 years longer than on the wrong type of diet.

Abstaining from alcohol statistically reduces your risk of accident and violence by over 50%, but how many people chose to live a life alcohol free. They either chose not to believe/actively deny these truths. or know them but ignore them in the pursuit of what they see as a more pleasurable lifestyle. Thats human for you.

It works for me. Yesterday every account was a little overdrawn. I had 15 cents in cash. I owed several thousand dollars. But last night god said to me. "Dont worry about money," and at the same time my concern was removed, and i felt complete peace. I knew there was no longer anything to worry about.

This morning a bloke who has had an old caravan on consignment for us rang up. He said, "I live by god's principles, and last night god told me the right thing to do was to buy your caravan my self, do it up, and rent it out." He then offered us enough money to pay all our bills and have a good christmas. I didnt know he was a christian, and had only met him once. He did not know i was. He made the decision to buy our caravan momentarily before god told me to stop worrying.

Now how can i respond to god except to walk with him, when he works like that, and clearly commuicates his intent to me.

A relationship with god is like any other, it requires consent and reciprocity. If "you" cant or won't freely give that consent, or reciprocity, perhaps god choses not to enforce it.

Living with god is a free willed choice. I could have walked away from god, and i dont know what path my life might have taken. I am much more than content, but i never see myself as a "chosen one."

Im just an ordinary bloke.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Mr Walker

[pickletoes]

that's such a neat story Mr. Walker. I as an atheist have pocketfuls of stories like these, they give me the same satisfaction but there's no God involved. Just life.

Last week I went into a pub with a friend and found a woman's wallet on the pub chair. I could have easily snuck it into my shopping bags and made off with the cash. Instead I turned it in to the woman behind the bar. Last night I ran into the pub again and the woman whose wallet I found was there offered to buy me a drink. We chatted it up. Turns out I've been trying to get a hold of her for the last month. She's opening a business I've been trying to get part time work at. Not bad for a new employee to prove his honesty to the boss that way ahead of time. And additionally turns out this woman lives right around the corner from me.

Wow. No God. Pretty neat. I can get why you'd say "why shouldn't you walk with God if you have these kinds of experiences." That makes total and logical sense to me. However, it seems like you are no different than the people who talk about "The Secret" and get all excited that this is the answer.

This is simply how life works. There's lots of coincidences and good things. And equally lots of bad things. Last week my father sent me $400 to get my son a nifty gift for Christmas. He sent it to me with a note that said "hope this helps turn your luck around so that you don't have more of your dad's luck"

The next day I got out of my car to help my girl friend in, and I left my gear in reverse and slammo crashed into the car behind. I had to hand that $400 to the driver of the car. The damage was exactly $400. God must not like me very much eh?

It just is the way life is. Why people are so continually startled by it surprises me.

[+Sherapy]

Thas an outsider's perspective. Dont feel bad about being excluded

Seriously; what is, is.

I dont understand or comprehend it all, i just experience and know it. But many faiths say that this connection to, and knowledge of, god IS open to every human. I personally concur. There is nothing about me that makes me physically differnt to any one else.

I can't say why another may not sense, perceive, hear or know god. I can only make logical observations as to why I can. It does not make me innately superior to another or even more fortunate than another. It gives me greater responsibilities and duties, and could be a burden if viewed in the wrong light.

why doesn't every one connect to god? Imagine knowing (not believing) that god is constantly present in you, and all around you, knowing his expectations, because he has been teaching you them for years. Knowing that he understands human failure, but still expects us to achieve our full potential for ourselves and our species.

If you can get your head around what it is like living with that knowledge, and in the presence of a god; and trying to live as that god expects, (for no other reason than to fulfil your own potential) then perhaps you can understand why many humans would chose not to connect to god, despite the physical and psychological benefits it brings.

All knowledge comes with costs as well as benefits. All true knowledge compels its holder to act on it, if they are to be true to them selves and to that knowledge. Most of the people i know chose (consciously or unconsciously) not to live in that reality, and that might be a sensible choice for them.

I mean, eating a diet free of meat, all oils, and based on fruits nuts and legumes, will completely eliminate the damage that causes heart problems.

But how many people would chose to live on tha tdiet even knowing they would never have heart disease and might live 15 to 20 years longer than on the wrong type of diet.

Abstaining from alcohol statistically reduces your risk of accident and violence by over 50%, but how many people chose to live a life alcohol free. They either chose not to believe/actively deny these truths. or know them but ignore them in the pursuit of what they see as a more pleasurable lifestyle. Thats human for you.

It works for me. Yesterday every account was a little overdrawn. I had 15 cents in cash. I owed several thousand dollars. But last night god said to me. "Dont worry about money," and at the same time my concern was removed, and i felt complete peace. I knew there was no longer anything to worry about.

This morning a bloke who has had an old caravan on consignment for us rang up. He said, "I live by god's principles, and last night god told me the right thing to do was to buy your caravan my self, do it up, and rent it out." He then offered us enough money to pay all our bills and have a good christmas. I didnt know he was a christian, and had only met him once. He did not know i was. He made the decision to buy our caravan momentarily before god told me to stop worrying.

Now how can i respond to god except to walk with him, when he works like that, and clearly commuicates his intent to me.

A relationship with god is like any other, it requires consent and reciprocity. If "you" cant or won't freely give that consent, or reciprocity, perhaps god choses not to enforce it.

Living with god is a free willed choice. I could have walked away from god, and i dont know what path my life might have taken. I am much more than content, but i never see myself as a "chosen one."

Im just an ordinary bloke.

I mean no disrespect MW, but why doesn't g-d get you a good paying job ? Have you asked him?

If I may be so bold as to inquire?

Edited December 21, 2010 by Sherizzle

[Mr Walker]

name='pickletoes' timestamp='1292890764' post='3707250']

that's such a neat story Mr. Walker. I as an atheist have pocketfuls of stories like these, they give me the same satisfaction but there's no God involved. Just life.

Thats ok. In your life god does not appear. However in the account i just gave, god actually spoke to me, and to the other person involved, independently of each other but at approximately the same time. I dont know if the other blokes telling the truth, although he had no reason to tell a complete stranger wha thapened to him, but i know iam So nmy case gosd is intimately invoved.

Last week I went into a pub with a friend and found a woman's wallet on the pub chair. I could have easily snuck it into my shopping bags and made off with the cash. Instead I turned it in to the woman behind the bar. Last night I ran into the pub again and the woman whose wallet I found was there offered to buy me a drink. We chatted it up. Turns out I've been trying to get a hold of her for the last month. She's opening a business I've been trying to get part time work at. Not bad for a new employee to prove his honesty to the boss that way ahead of time. And additionally turns out this woman lives right around the corner from me.

As you say god does not appear to you in that case. That dioes not mena you can apply wha thappened to you to wha t happened to me.

Wow. No God. Pretty neat. I can get why you'd say "why shouldn't you walk with God if you have these kinds of experiences." That makes total and logical sense to me. However, it seems like you are no different than the people who talk about "The Secret" and get all excited that this is the answer.

The differnce is the specific explicit PRESENCE of god This is not about belief I am not a believer. PAy it forward, the secret, and other principles of human interaction work because they are based on known principles of human psychology There is lots of coincidence and serendipity in eveyones lives, and one shouldnt see god in those patterns. You "generic you) will know when god manifests in your life and it wont be open to belief /disbelief

This is simply how life works. There's lots of coincidences and good things. And equally lots of bad things. Last week my father sent me $400 to get my son a nifty gift for Christmas. He sent it to me with a note that said "hope this helps turn your luck around so that you don't have more of your dad's luck"

Quite correct. I assume god didnt speak to you and say, "Look dont worry, your dads about to send you $400 bucks" , so you correctly leave god out of the equation. How would you feel if he had?

The next day I got out of my car to help my girl friend in, and I left my gear in reverse and slammo crashed into the car behind. I had to hand that $400 to the driver of the car. The damage was exactly $400. God must not like me very much eh?

No reason to see god in any of that. You will know if it is god working in your life. He will tell you and make it absolutely clear. For example he will say " hey, you left your car in reverse. Fix it now before you salm into the car behind you." At least thats my experiencecne with him.

It just is the way life is.

True.

Why people are so continually startled by it surprises me.

In my case, because that is not the nature or quality of experience im talking about. The problem is that we all tend to assume others must experience the world as we do. This is not true. We cant safely assume others have similar experiences, and thus think as we do.

Until i was a teenager i thought everyone could on occasions read minds, and travel around the neighbourhood and the world via obe, and control their dreamscapes totally.

Until i was 12 i never knew i was colour blind. I thought every one saw the world as I did. Until i was 14 i thought no one could consciously visualise objects in their minds, because i could not. Until i was 22 i believed god did not exist, because i had never knowingly met him, or recognised him.

hile it took me a while to recognise god, one of the factors that enabled me to, was previous experience and knowing that the world is wider and more varied than what an individual may perceive. All those earlier realisations, enabled me to accept that it is posible to see, feel, perceive, hear,etc the presence of god.

[Mr Walker]

I mean no disrespect MW, but why doesn't g-d get you a good paying job ? Have you asked him?

If I may be so bold as to inquire?

ROFLMAO I always assumed this was his paying job.

For all i know, he is employed by a higher authority /god to help keep humans from destroying themselves,to evolve into maturity, and learn the rules of civilized adult behaviour essential for entering the galactic community.

Or, if you like, to ascend individually and as a race, to the form of being who can safely enter the civilised worlds.

Im ready. But thats a subjective opinion. I am also a work in progress. Tomorrow I will be more ready.

Sorry.I misread your post. I thought you were asking why god didnt get a good paying job.

I have an excellent paying job but, more importantl,y one which suits my gifts talents and temperament. I love teaching. and would do it for free.

I earn about $80,000 american dollars a year and a further $15000 from a house we rent out,( which is worth 300,000 dollars, and on which i owe $150000) which is enough to support my wife and i quite luxuriously if i chose a material life style, but i give away most of whati earn to people (and animals) in far more desparate need than i. They dont have the opportunity to earn the wages i do and are lucky to live/ survive.

If i can keep them well and safe, feed them, educate them and allow them to learn to support them selves, then i fulfil a more important duty than earning money and living beyond my needs. Money sitting in a bank is wasted when it could do so much good for so many people.

As i said the other day, $20 will provide 100 meals to children in developing countries.How can i eat more than i need and know they are starving? How can i even leave that $20 in the bank when I know it will feed half a dozen children for a week. Those children are god's children as much as i am. God lives in them, as much as in me. And there, but for the grace of god, go I.

As god once explained it to me, it is easier for him to find ways to provide for me in a rich society, thana for a starving person in somalia. That is just the way it is. So god may top up my account, and i pay it forward to those most in need. In that way, god does feed the starving child, or protect the abused mother, or provide a small craft for a family, via me.

Thats a small part of what i mean about being one with god, and having god within me.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Mr Walker

[+Sherapy]

that's such a neat story Mr. Walker. I as an atheist have pocketfuls of stories like these, they give me the same satisfaction but there's no God involved. Just life.

Last week I went into a pub with a friend and found a woman's wallet on the pub chair. I could have easily snuck it into my shopping bags and made off with the cash. Instead I turned it in to the woman behind the bar. Last night I ran into the pub again and the woman whose wallet I found was there offered to buy me a drink. We chatted it up. Turns out I've been trying to get a hold of her for the last month. She's opening a business I've been trying to get part time work at. Not bad for a new employee to prove his honesty to the boss that way ahead of time. And additionally turns out this woman lives right around the corner from me.

Wow. No God. Pretty neat. I can get why you'd say "why shouldn't you walk with God if you have these kinds of experiences." That makes total and logical sense to me. However, it seems like you are no different than the people who talk about "The Secret" and get all excited that this is the answer.

This is simply how life works. There's lots of coincidences and good things. And equally lots of bad things. Last week my father sent me $400 to get my son a nifty gift for Christmas. He sent it to me with a note that said "hope this helps turn your luck around so that you don't have more of your dad's luck"

The next day I got out of my car to help my girl friend in, and I left my gear in reverse and slammo crashed into the car behind. I had to hand that $400 to the driver of the car. The damage was exactly $400. God must not like me very much eh?

It just is the way life is. Why people are so continually startled by it surprises me.

Great stories PT, I agree these are part of life irregardless of belief in a g-d or not.

I just assume they are a part of everyone's life.

I have got a slew of them myself, as you.

When we were young and broke, my hubby wanted to take me to my favorite restaurant and we had just enough money to cover the bill in our checking account , the whole time I am thinking, we shouldn't go, we shouldn't go.....

Anyways as we were walkng in I looked down on the ground and saw a 20 dollar bill, and then I looked up and saw another one, then another one and another one, I found 80 dollars on the way in to the restaurant .

[+Sherapy]

ROFLMAO I always assumed this was his paying job.

For all i know, he is employed by a higher authority /god to help keep humans from destroying themselves,to evolve into maturity, and learn the rules of civilized adult behaviour essential for entering the galactic community.

Or, if you like, to ascend individually and as a race, to the form of being who can safely enter the civilised worlds.

Im ready. But thats a subjective opinion. I am also a work in progress. Tomorrow I will be more ready.

Sorry.I misread your post. I thought you were asking why god didnt get a good paying job.

I have an excellent paying job but, more importantl,y one which suits my gifts talents and temperament. I love teaching. and would do it for free.

I earn about $80,000 american dollars a year and a further $15000 from a house we rent out,( which is worth 300,000 dollars, and on which i owe $150000) which is enough to support my wife and i quite luxuriously if i chose a material life style, but i give away most of whati earn to people (and animals) in far more desparate need than i. They dont have the opportunity to earn the wages i do and are lucky to live/ survive.

If i can keep them well and safe, feed them, educate them and allow them to learn to support them selves, then i fulfil a more important duty than earning money and living beyond my needs. Money sitting in a bank is wasted when it could do so much good for so many people.

As i said the other day, $20 will provide 100 meals to children in developing countries.How can i eat more than i need and know they are starving? How can i even leave that $20 in the bank when I know it will feed half a dozen children for a week. Those children are god's children as much as i am. God lives in them, as much as in me. And there, but for the grace of god, go I.

As god once explained it to me, it is easier for him to find ways to provide for me in a rich society, thana for a starving person in somalia. That is just the way it is. So god may top up my account, and i pay it forward to those most in need. In that way, god does feed the starving child, or protect the abused mother, or provide a small craft for a family, via me.

Thats a small part of what i mean about being one with god, and having god within me.

G-d told you it is easier to provide for you then a starving person in Somalia ?

This Omni endowed being who can do anything can't handle this?

Why would you leave yourself broke and in debt barely able to make it when you make such great money.

How does your wife feel about you giving away all your money while she has to worry about her next meal ?

To be honest I'd tear my hubby a new you know what if he did this.

I am all for charity , but it begins at home first , we take care of our needs so we are not a burden to our society .

ROFLMAO I always assumed this was his paying job.

For all i know, he is employed by a higher authority /god to help keep humans from destroying themselves,to evolve into maturity, and learn the rules of civilized adult behaviour essential for entering the galactic community.

Or, if you like, to ascend individually and as a race, to the form of being who can safely enter the civilised worlds.

Im ready. But thats a subjective opinion. I am also a work in progress. Tomorrow I will be more ready.

Sorry.I misread your post. I thought you were asking why god didnt get a good paying job.

I have an excellent paying job but, more importantl,y one which suits my gifts talents and temperament. I love teaching. and would do it for free.

I earn about $80,000 american dollars a year and a further $15000 from a house we rent out,( which is worth 300,000 dollars, and on which i owe $150000) which is enough to support my wife and i quite luxuriously if i chose a material life style, but i give away most of whati earn to people (and animals) in far more desparate need than i. They dont have the opportunity to earn the wages i do and are lucky to live/ survive.

If i can keep them well and safe, feed them, educate them and allow them to learn to support them selves, then i fulfil a more important duty than earning money and living beyond my needs. Money sitting in a bank is wasted when it could do so much good for so many people.

As i said the other day, $20 will provide 100 meals to children in developing countries.How can i eat more than i need and know they are starving? How can i even leave that $20 in the bank when I know it will feed half a dozen children for a week. Those children are god's children as much as i am. God lives in them, as much as in me. And there, but for the grace of god, go I.

As god once explained it to me, it is easier for him to find ways to provide for me in a rich society, thana for a starving person in somalia. That is just the way it is. So god may top up my account, and i pay it forward to those most in need. In that way, god does feed the starving child, or protect the abused mother, or provide a small craft for a family, via me.

Thats a small part of what i mean about being one with god, and having god within me.

G-d told you it is easier to provide for you then a starving person in Somalia ?

This Omni endowed being who can do anything can't handle this?

Why would you leave yourself broke and in debt barely able to make it when you make such great money.

How does your wife feel about you giving away all your money while she has to worry about her next meal ?

To be honest I'd tear my hubby a new you know what if he did this.

I am all for charity , but it begins at home first , we take care of our needs so we are not a burden to our society .

[pickletoes]

ROFLMAO I always assumed this was his paying job.

For all i know, he is employed by a higher authority /god to help keep humans from destroying themselves,to evolve into maturity, and learn the rules of civilized adult behaviour essential for entering the galactic community.

Or, if you like, to ascend individually and as a race, to the form of being who can safely enter the civilised worlds.

Im ready. But thats a subjective opinion. I am also a work in progress. Tomorrow I will be more ready.

Sorry.I misread your post. I thought you were asking why god didnt get a good paying job.

I have an excellent paying job but, more importantl,y one which suits my gifts talents and temperament. I love teaching. and would do it for free.

I earn about $80,000 american dollars a year and a further $15000 from a house we rent out,( which is worth 300,000 dollars, and on which i owe $150000) which is enough to support my wife and i quite luxuriously if i chose a material life style, but i give away most of whati earn to people (and animals) in far more desparate need than i. They dont have the opportunity to earn the wages i do and are lucky to live/ survive.

If i can keep them well and safe, feed them, educate them and allow them to learn to support them selves, then i fulfil a more important duty than earning money and living beyond my needs. Money sitting in a bank is wasted when it could do so much good for so many people.

As i said the other day, $20 will provide 100 meals to children in developing countries.How can i eat more than i need and know they are starving? How can i even leave that $20 in the bank when I know it will feed half a dozen children for a week. Those children are god's children as much as i am. God lives in them, as much as in me. And there, but for the grace of god, go I.

As god once explained it to me, it is easier for him to find ways to provide for me in a rich society, thana for a starving person in somalia. That is just the way it is. So god may top up my account, and i pay it forward to those most in need. In that way, god does feed the starving child, or protect the abused mother, or provide a small craft for a family, via me.

Thats a small part of what i mean about being one with god, and having god within me.

Shoot, I know I'm going to regret this but doesn't this change what you just wrote above about your miracle relationship with God saving you on the edge of being broke?

I mean seriously if I made tons of money and gave it all away (although 80,000 isn't really tons) I sure as heck wouldn't be worried about overdrawn bank accounts and only have a quarter in my pocket.

It's kinda how I feel about the story of Jesus dying on the cross. If Jesus knows he's getting resurrected and going to be the returning messiah then whoopdeedo, he died for three days. I think we could all manage to die for three days and come back. Yes the method was gruesome and awful. But still..........it's always seemed a little weird to me that story.

Now your story sounds a little manipulated and inauthentic? What gives?

[IamsSon]

Shoot, I know I'm going to regret this but doesn't this change what you just wrote above about your miracle relationship with God saving you on the edge of being broke?

I mean seriously if I made tons of money and gave it all away (although 80,000 isn't really tons) I sure as heck wouldn't be worried about overdrawn bank accounts and only have a quarter in my pocket.

It's kinda how I feel about the story of Jesus dying on the cross. If Jesus knows he's getting resurrected and going to be the returning messiah then whoopdeedo, he died for three days. I think we could all manage to die for three days and come back. Yes the method was gruesome and awful. But still..........it's always seemed a little weird to me that story.

Now your story sounds a little manipulated and inauthentic? What gives?

Hey Mr. W., the bad news is now you're being called a liar. The good news is you're apparently in good company right there with Jesus and the guys who wrote the Bible.

[fullywired]

It works for me. Yesterday every account was a little overdrawn. I had 15 cents in cash. I owed several thousand dollars. But last night god said to me. "Dont worry about money," and at the same time my concern was removed, and i felt complete peace. I knew there was no longer anything to worry about.

This morning a bloke who has had an old caravan on consignment for us rang up. He said, "I live by god's principles, and last night god told me the right thing to do was to buy your caravan my self, do it up, and rent it out." He then offered us enough money to pay all our bills and have a good christmas. I didnt know he was a christian, and had only met him once. He did not know i was. He made the decision to buy our caravan momentarily before god told me to stop worrying.

Im just an ordinary bloke.

As god stopped putting money in that wallet I offered to buy from you ? If he used the old method ,he could have prevented you worrying

fullywired

[+Sherapy]

As all experiences are subjective, I don't really believe that any criteria would make it less valid or believable. Of course this only applies to the experiencer himself, as those whose beliefs said experience might contradict will of course take issue and try to disprove it. In truth, what is real to the one having the experience should be all that matters. Unless another had the same divine experience simultaneously, it could never be proved or disproved. Just some thoughts.

Thanks RS, you know this and I know this, but you may be surprised at how many have no idea that 'their' subjective reality is meaningless in the big picture, except to them.

Edited December 21, 2010 by Sherizzle

[Mr Walker]

MW, irregardless your experience is subjective, you are certainly free to interpret it as objective if it floats your boat. But this thread is not about you. You can certainly start a thread that addresses your interpretation and I'll happily contribute. though.

This thread is about a question Doc has asked a lot of times "By what criteria would my divine experience be less valid or believable than those claimed by Christians?"

This is my basic problem with you sherrizle. You are not competent to adjudge the nature or quality of my experiences, only your own, and i dont comprehend why you cannot see that.

You have no evidences on which to support your claim of subjectivity other than the specious philosophical one that ALL expereinces are subjective. This is not true; almost all human expereinces are objective. (Ie they actually occur in the objective concrete physical world) We may interpret them with varying degrees of subjectivity)

And second, while my posts always respond to questions or comments from others, the question of objectivity/subjectivity goes directly to docs op, as do my responses.

We judge (or at least we should judge) the objectivity, reality, physicality, independent existence of, ALL our experiences the same way, using the same evidences and the same logics. If we do that, we will come to consistent conclusions about their objective existence, and also their contextual validity within the greater reality of existence.

. Thus the answer as to how we should respond to the word of "god" in his scenario, is exactly the same as how we should respond to every thing in our lives. Contextually, logically, rationally etc. We should use previous data bases, and the abiity to compare, contrast, and extropolate, to judge the nature, quality, and reality of the experience, including the message.

What we should not do, as a first step, is say, "This can not be the word of god, because god does not exist" That is a belief, and a belief which contrasts with the evidences within this experience, and thus must be now suspect.. You are suggesting we allow our beliefs to make our experiences suspect. Life cant work like that.