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The Puzzler

Achaemenid Persians were Achaeans?

50 posts in this topic

I was wondering what you thought of the idea that Persians were once the Achaeans of Homer.

Reading up in my archaeology book, I couldn't help but see many similarities between the Persians and Greeks and the more I thought about it the more it seemed likely.

The Achaemenid line of Persians were once the Achaeans of Greece?

Could the Achaean attackers of Troy actually be Persians before they became Persians and were in Greece as Mycenaeans?

What else? Lions.

The Lion's Gate of Mycenae and the lion symbol of the Persians stood out to me as an obvious symbol of both cultures.

The Persians themselves claimed kinship to the Lacadaemonians (Spartans). The area of Lydia was called Sparta by the Persians.

Perse was a son of Perseus and Andromeda. That is, PERSeus son became the namesake of the Persians. Persepolis itself is named from Perse.

Could the Persian arrival in Asia Minor be connected to their attack on Troy?

Could it be the myths are contrived to hide the 'fact' that the enemy had once been themselves.

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Cyrus, according to Plutach translated to Kuros, Sun.

Kouros' in Greece were young men, sons.

Cyrus wife was Cassadane, which rings a sound like Cassandra and Cassiopeia.

Susa was a Persian city but also said to be where Memnon came from and Memnon is also said to be a nephew of Laomedon of Troy.

Cronus may be the relic that the Persians kept, confused as Saturn but really the Sun.

One particular weird link comes with Serapis, a deity found in Babylon.

The earliest mention of a Serapis is in the disputed death scene of Alexander (323 BC).[3] Here, Serapis has a temple at Babylon, and is of such importance that he alone is named as being consulted on behalf of the dying king. His presence in Babylon would radically alter perceptions of the mythologies of this era, though fortunately it has been discovered that the unconnected Babylonian god Ea (Enki) was titled Serapsi, meaning 'king of the deep', and it is possible this Serapsi is the one referred to in the diaries.

Edit, add link:

Lucky break that, hey? hmm



I believe the lions are an important link to it all.

From The Laws by Plato:

Ath. Let us note the rest of the story. Observe, that Darius was not the son of a king, and had not received a luxurious education. When he came to the throne, being one of the seven, he divided the country into seven portions, and of this arrangement there are some shadowy traces still remaining; he made laws upon the principle of introducing universal equality in the order of the state, and he embodied in his laws the settlement of the tribute which Cyrus promised - thus creating a feeling of friendship and community among all the Persians, and attaching the people to him with money and gifts. Hence his armies cheerfully acquired for him countries as large as those which Cyrus had left behind him. Darius was succeeded by his son Xerxes; and he again was brought up in the royal and luxurious fashion. Might we not most justly say: "O Darius, how came you to bring up Xerxes in the same way in which Cyrus brought up Cambyses, and not to see his fatal mistake?" For Xerxes, being the creation of the same education, met with much the same fortune as Cambyses; and from that time until now there has never been a really great king among the Persians, although they are all called Great. And their degeneracy is not to be attributed to chance, as I maintain; the reason is rather the evil life which is generally led by the sons of very rich and royal persons; for never will boy or man, young or old, excel in virtue, who has been thus educated. And this, I say, is what the legislator has to consider, and what at the present moment has to be considered by us. Justly may you, O Lacedaemonians, be praised, in that you do not give special honour or a special education to wealth rather than to poverty, or to a royal rather than to a private station, where the divine and inspired lawgiver has not originally commanded them to be given. For no man ought to have pre - eminent honour in a state because he surpasses others in wealth, any more than because he is swift of foot or fair or strong, unless he have some virtue in him; nor even if he have virtue, unless he have this particular virtue of temperance.

The Spartans seemed to still practice what the Persians once did.

Edited by The Puzzler

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•We fought them, for the reason that the various drifts of Aryans have always fought each other, just as the Achaeans fought the Dorians, just as the Celts and Germans cut each other's throats; aye, just as the Hellenes and the Persians, who were once one people and of the same drift, split in two different ways on the long trek and centuries later met and flooded Greece and Asia Minor with blood.

—People of the Dark

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After the fall of the Lydian empire in Asia Minor two groups of people from the area around Lake Urmia began to assert themselves. They were the Parsuwash and Matai. Parsuwash is thought to be the first mention of Persia and Matai could be Mitani or Medes.

One of the early mentioning of Lake Urmia is from the Assyrian records from 9th century BCE. Here from the records of Shalmaneser III (reign 858-824 BCE) two names (place or tribe name) of Parsuwash and Matai are mentioned in the area of Lake Urmia. It is not completely clear what are the identities of these names and subsequent personal names and "kings". But Matai's are Iranian Median and linguistically the name "Parsuwash" matches perfectly with the Old Persian pārsa- an Achaemenid well-known ethno-linguistic designation.[4] Based on certain historical outline of how and when the Iranian people immigrated to the Iranian Plateau in several waves along different routes, Old Persian language- the ancestor of Modern Persian was originally spoken by the people of/from "Parsuwash" who settled in Iranian Plateau sometime in early 1st millennium and finally moved down into an area where Achaemenid history began ca. 600 BCE.[4]

They were the enemies of the Cimmerians who had thwarted the Phrygians and we know that Persia had a lot to do with the tribes of Israel. Is it foolish to see the Cimmerians as a candidate for the north tribes of Israel? Some were capture but that was only a minority is my feeling. The Persians drove off the Cimmerians and held a portion of the Israelites captive, until they were let free.

It's a bit of a mess for sure but it does seem like there is a link between Egypt, Mycenenan Greece and Persia. All may have been the parent cultures to the Macedonians. The also had a preference towards imperialism and a love of gardens.

Overall they seem to be as much Scythian as they were Acheans but they moved into Elamtie territory when an oppurtunity presented itself i.e. when they were supposedly at war with the hebrews. Difficult to see beyond all the myth but at some point or other the paths all cross.

I like the part about Ser Apis aswell :tu:

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•We fought them, for the reason that the various drifts of Aryans have always fought each other, just as the Achaeans fought the Dorians, just as the Celts and Germans cut each other's throats; aye, just as the Hellenes and the Persians, who were once one people and of the same drift, split in two different ways on the long trek and centuries later met and flooded Greece and Asia Minor with blood.

—People of the Dark


So where do the Blondes and fair skinned fit in here?

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I'm going to let this thread die unless anyone wants to contribute.

I'm in a tizz about Atlantis in the Adriatic and need to focus all my efforts into it right now.

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Share on other sites - India, Empire and Chaos

India, Empire and Chaos -- rise and fall of the Maurya and Gupta empires.

After the year 1000 BCE, the world continued to be disturbed by migrations, on the subcontinent called India as well. Around the year 1000, tribes living in the Indus Valley began running from drought. They trekked eastward along the foot of the Himalayan mountains, where jungles were less dense and rivers easier to cross. They entered the plains of the Ganges Valley. They found these societies with a more egalitarian organization than they had, and they exercised a common arrogance: they despised them for being different, for not having kings as autocratic as theirs and for having strange religious beliefs.

By now, these were people with iron tools and weapons, iron having spread eastward through Persia. And with their superior weaponry and self-confidence, the migrants fought those who resisted their advance. Some priests went as missionaries to southern India.

With Hindu conquerors settling alongside local peoples, a complex hierarchy of classes had developed. At the top were the priests and their entire families: the Brahmins. Also at the top were the warrior-aristocrats, the Kshatriyas, whose job it was to practice constantly for combat. Neither the Brahmins nor the Kshatriyas conceded superiority to the other, but they agreed that the other classes were lower than they. The first of these lower classes was the Vaishas and their families: those conquerors who tended cattle and served the Brahmins and Kshatriyas in others ways. The lowest class was the conquered, darker-skinned people who were servants for the conquerors. The servants were called Shudras. Hindus made these four classifications a part of their mythology and religion.

By around the 700s or 600s BCE, the migrations had ended. They created cities. Traders, merchants and landlords appeared, as did money lenders. Indians began trading with Arabia and the great empire of the Assyrians. In the 600s, India began trading with China, the Malay peninsula and the islands of what are now Indonesia and the Philippines. By 600 BCE, numerous cities had arisen in northern India -- cities with fortifications, moats and ramparts in response to the dangers of war. - Ancient Zoroastrians

Ancient Zoroastrians - gods and the Persians, Zarathustra, optimism against evil.

[Note: Fire Parallels between Norse, Germanic, Tuetonic, Yggdrasil]

Under Persia's Achaemenid dynasty, before Darius, temples had appeared for the first time. Related to the Aryans who had invaded India, or a least having a language closely related to the Aryans, the Persians had gods similar to those found in the sacred Hindu Vedas. Among the Persians were a people called Medes, and a priesthood called the Magi had come to dominate the Medes religion. The major god of the Medes was Zurvan, a god of time and destiny. - Manichaeism, a Universalist Faith.

[Note: Water Parallels between Judiasm, Christianity, Germanic]

Persia was between India and the Roman Empire, and the Silk Road ran through it, making Persia a crossroad of ideas. It had Jews who had had fled from their homeland. After the Jews came Christians. Buddhist ideas were imported from India, and there was the indigenous Zoroastrianism. And into the mix of religious ideas arose a blend the various religions into a universalist faith:Manichaeism (pronounced mani-KEY-ism). - Greeks, Democracy and Slavery (650-501 BCE)

Greeks, Democracy and Slavery - Draconian Athens, Sparta, Athenian democracy, the culture of slavery.

Athens was a city on the water's edge and, unlike Sparta, it was a city of maritime trade and commerce. But like Sparta it was devoted mainly to agriculture. Like most other cities in the 600s, Athens was ruled by an oligarchy. Power within Athens and its surrounding countryside was distributed among local families of wealth, each ruling over the common people in its locality.

With success in agriculture had come a rise in population. There might have been a problem with rains having washed away topsoil, reducing the amount of land for farming, but there was definitely the problem of fathers dividing land among their sons. Trouble was brewing in what was essentially a laissez faire economy.

Land was divided into smaller and smaller plots. People were plowing land that was only marginally arable, and over-plowing increased soil exhaustion. Those who owned and worked small plots of land were at times obliged to borrow money to tide themselves over until their next successful harvest. Money was lent at high interest rates, and across Attica small farms became covered with stones on which mortgage bonds were written. Increasingly, small farmers were working the lands of their debtor, giving up a sixth of their crop to their debtor, or they were being sold as slaves abroad -- diminishing the population only minimally.

Another source of trouble was the one-third in Athens who were foreign slaves. The availability of slave labor bid down wages. Landless freemen could be hired to work in fields or small shops at what some might call starvation wages. City jobs were also occupied by slaves. People of wealth and the city saw themselves as benefiting from slavery. And those with wealth felt no responsibility for those who had grown poor.

In 621 BCE, while unrest was rising among the poor of Athens, a man named Draco led the ruling oligarchy. Draco had existing laws put into writing. He made a legal distinction between intentionally killing someone and accidental homicide. He used state power to intervene in blood feuds. And for almost everything that the ruling elite considered a crime he devised one penalty: death. Not only were rebellion and murder punished by death, so too were idleness and the stealing of vegetables and fruit. It was from Draco's name that the word Draconian would be derived.

Solon described Athens as having fallen into "base slavery." Under Solon, slavery was to continue, but he put restrictions on it. Solon prohibited enslavement of the poor and rescued many Athenians who had been sold and sent abroad. He forbade Athenians to sell their children into slavery -- except for girls who had committed fornication before marriage. And he made a master responsible for protecting his slaves and liable for his slave's actions.

Solon wished to protect the poor from the rich and the rich from the poor, and using dictatorial powers given him by fellow aristocrats he overturned Draco's death penalties, except for murder. To preserve the justice of Zeus he increased state intervention in society. He had the state give relief to the poor. He canceled mortgages. He passed a law against debt-bondage. He put an end to tenant farming by returning farms to those who had lost them through debt. And he limited the size of land that any one person could own. - Religion, Myth and the Ancient Greeks

Religion, Myth and the Ancient Greeks - stories by Homer and Hesiod, cults, resurrection, the Olympics and war.

The story describes Greek leader Agamemnon mistreating a priest of the god Apollo. Agamemon had been holding as a prize of war the priest's daughter. The priest wanted to buy back his daughter. Agamemnon tells him to go away, to forget about his daughter, adding: "I swear she will grow old ... working my loom and visiting my bed." Apollo then punishes the Greeks with a plague. A contingent of Greeks sacrfices one hundred head of cattle in order to appease Apollo.

The tradition of sacrifice among the Greeks is depicted in the Iliad with another tradition: purification. Homer's heroes must wash or purify themselves before a sacrifice, a purification involving disposal of offensive pollutions. The Iliad describes religious rituals that included cremation -- which allowed a warrior's remains to be transported home for ceremonial entombment.

Fire awed the early Romans, as it did the Greeks and others. The Romans believed in a goddess of fire called Vesta, and they had a sacred temple of fire tended by four females -- the Vestal Virgins -- who were selected while they were children and were expected to serve thirty years

The legend of Romulus and Remus dated the founding of Rome at 753 BCE, but from modern archaeology comes evidence that around the year 1000 Rome was already a collection of villages.

Romulus killed Remus [Twin Brother - Castor & Pollux Reference], and he became Rome's first king. To populate his city, Romulus gathered people from other countries. And, to give his subjects wives, he abducted young unmarried women from a nearby tribe called the Sabines.

The legend ends with Romulus, after a long reign, vanishing into a thunderstorm. He became a god. Then he reappeared, descending from the sky, declaring to those listening that it is the will of heaven that Rome be the capital of the world, that Romans cherish the art of war and that others realize that they cannot resist the strength of Roman arms.

In Greek mythology, Tyndareus or Tyndareos was a Spartan king, son of Oebalus (or Perieres) and Gorgophone (or Bateia), husband of Leda ('Λήδα') and father of Helen, Castor and Polydeuces, Clytemnestra, Timandra, Phoebe and Philonoe.

Tyndareus had a brother named Hippocoon, who seized power and exiled Tyndareus. He was reinstated by Heracles, who killed Hippocoon and his sons, including Lycon. Tyndareus's other brother was Icarius, who became the father of Penelope.

According to Euripides's Orestes, Tyndareus was still alive at the time of Menelaus's return, and was trying to secure the death penalty for his grandson Orestes due to the latter's murder of Tyndareus's daughter, Clytemnestra, but according to other accounts he had died prior to the Trojan War. In either case Orestes eventually married Hermione, his first cousin on both sides. Also Serminian.

Castor and Pollux died, and in some versions were made into gods themselves. According to the Iliad Helen was still unaware of her brothers' deaths in the tenth year of the Trojan War, since during Book III she looks for them among the Greek host and is surprised not to see them. This suggests that Castor and Pollux died sometime after Helen's departure for Troy but before the war itself.

The situation of Tyndareus' heirs can be confusing to a modern eye, since most lines of descent pass through the male heirs, and Helen had 2 brothers and one older sister. Greek societies at this time were matrilineal not patrilineal, however. Helen was the heir and Menelaus became king only because he married her. This is also one reason why Menelaus had to go to Troy to retrieve Helen; without her, he had no authority in Sparta. It also explains why Helen had done her duty by producing a daughter - Hermione became the heir, eventually marrying her cousin, Orestes. (Pollux)(Tyndaridae or Tyndarids)

Their Vedic parallels in the effulgent brother horsemen Asvin sets them firmly in the Indo-European tradition. Their archaic and inexplicable name in Spartan inscriptions Tindaridai or in literature Tyndaridai occasioned an explanatory myth of a Tyndareus (Burkert 1985:212), that in turn occasioned incompatible accounts of their parentage. Castor and Polydeuces are sometimes both mortal, sometimes both divine. One consistent point is that if only one of them is immortal, it is Polydeuces.

The Dioscuri can be recognized in vase-paintings by the skull-cap they wear, the pilos, which was already explained in Antiquity as the remnants of the egg from which they hatched.

Whether the children are thus mortal and which half-immortal is not consistent among accounts, nor is whether the twins hatched together from one egg. In some accounts, only Polydeuces was fathered by Zeus, while Leda and her husband Tyndareus conceived Castor. This explains why they were granted an alternate immortality. It is a common belief that one would live among the gods, while the other was among the dead. Castor and Polydeuces are sometimes both mortal, sometimes both divine. One consistent point is that if only one of them is immortal, it is Polydeuces.

They were both excellent horsemen and hunters who participated in the hunting of the Calydonian Boar and later joined the crew of Jason's ship, the Argo.

Dioscuri as saviours

When their sister Helen was abducted by the legendary Greek king Theseus, they invaded his kingdom of Attica to rescue her, abducting Theseus' mother Aethra in revenge and carrying her off to Sparta while setting a rival, Menestheus, on the throne of Athens. Aethra was forced to become Helen's slave but was eventually returned to her home by her grandsons Demophon and Acamas following the fall of Troy.

As emblems of immortality and death that were no longer polar opposites, it is not surprising to hear that the Dioscuri, like Heracles were said to have been initiated at Eleusis.

Etruscan, Celtic and Hebrew analogues ETC ... ^

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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The history and significance of the god: Zurvan Akarana

The concept of eternity is something that can be found in many religious practices today, including Judaism, Christianity, and Islam. Zurvan meant “time” and referred to the finite time of history. This lasted 12,000 symbolic years. A symbolic year was known as Zurvan Daregho-hyadata and was represented by a system of twelve periods of a thousand years.

A symbol that appears frequently in Christian art and in the arms of the Popes, the crossed keys were formerly an emblem of the Roman God Janis and the Mithraic Zurvan, both gods of time and keepers of doorways, and removers of obstacles. It is this symbolism that led to the folk legend of Peter as the bureaucratic keeper of the “pearly gates.”

Zurvanism is a now-extinct branch of Zoroastrianism that had the divinity Zurvan as its First Principle (primordial creator deity). Zurvanism considered Ahura Mazda not the transcendental Creator, but one of two equal-but-opposite divinities under the supremacy of Zurvan. The central Zurvanite belief made Ahura Mazda (Middle Persian: Ohrmuzd) and Angra Mainyu (Ahriman) twin brothers.

Non-Zoroastrian accounts of typically Zurvanite beliefs were the first traces of Zoroastrianism to reach the west, leading European scholars to conclude that Zoroastrianism was a monist religion. While the Armenian and Syriac sources depict the religion of the Sassanids as having been distinctly Zurvanite, the later native commentaries are primarily Mazdean and with only one exception.

The origins of the cult of Zurvan remain debated. One view (Zaehner, 1939; Duchesne-Guillemin, 1956; Zaehner 1955, intro) considers Zurvanism to have developed out of Zoroastrianism as a reaction to the liberalization of the late Achaemenid era form of the faith.

The "twin brother" doctrine

"Classical Zurvanism" is the term coined by Zaehner (1955, intro) to denote the movement to explain the inconsistency of Zoroaster's description of the 'twin spirits' as they appear in Yasna 30.3-5 of the Avesta. According to Zaehner, this "Zurvanism proper" was "genuinely Iranian and Zoroastrian in that it sought to clarify the enigma of the twin spirits that Zoroaster left unsolved." (Zaehner, 1961)

As the priesthood sought to explain it, if the Malevolent Spirit (lit: Angra Mainyu) and the Benevolent Spirit (Spenta Mainyu, identified with Ahura Mazda) were twins, then they must have had a "father", who must have existed before them. The priesthood settled on Zurvan - the hypostasis of (Infinite) Time - as being "the only possible 'Absolute' from whom the twins could proceed" and which was the source of good in the one and the source of evil in the other (Zaehner, 1961).

The Zurvanite "twin brother" doctrine is also evident in Zurvanism's cosmogonical creation myth, that in its "classic" form, does not contradict the Mazdean model of the origin and evolution of the universe, which begins where the Zurvanite model ends.

The legacy of Zurvanism

No evidence of typically Zurvanite rituals or practices have been discovered and followers of the cult are widely believed to have had the same rituals and practices as Mazdean Zoroastrians did. The pessimism evident in Zurvanite fatalism is a stark contradiction of essentially optimistic Mazdaism and is a direct violation of what is perhaps Zoroaster's greatest contribution to religious philosophy: the concept of a free will.

That Zurvanism is altogether considered the heresy is however remarkable since the strict dualism that was implicit to the cult was more in line with the dualism alluded to in Zoroaster's own Gathas than with the polytheistic rationalizations of natural phenomena that Zoroastrianism had almost become by the end of the Achaemenid period.

Nonetheless, that Zurvanism was the predominant brand of Zoroastrianism during the cataclysmic years just prior to the fall of the empire, is, according to Duchesne-Guillemin, evident in the degree of influence that Zurvanism (but not Mazdaism) would have on the Iranian brand of Shi'a Islam. Writing in the historical present, he notes that "under Chosrau II (r. 590-628) and his successors, all kinds of superstitions tend to overwhelm the Mazdean religion, which gradually disintegrates, thus preparing the triumph of Islam." Thus, "what will survive in popular conscience under the Muslim varnish is not Mazdeism: it is Zervanite fatalism, well attested in Persian literature" (Duchesne-Guillemin, 1956:109).


The ancient Persians and Medes were originally polytheists. They worshipped numerous gods associated with natural phenomena such as Mao, the Moon God, Vato, the Wind God and Atar, the Fire God. Their religious practices included, animal sacrifice, a reverence for fire and the drinking of a natural intoxicant made from the juice of the haoma plant.

Zoroastrian was a state religion of Achaemenid Empire, Parthian and Sassanid Empires . After the Arab invasion, many believers in Zoroastrianism fled to India and became known as the Parsi (Parsee).

Zoroaster inherited two fundamental principles from his Aryan ancestry : (1) There is law in Nature. (2) There is conflict in Nature. Agricultral life meant sharing of water for the communal good . The orginality of Zoroastrianism was in its rejection of the myriad gods of the age and its concentration on the spirit of good.

The spirit of the Zendavesta is wholly averse to idolatry, and we may fully accept the statement of Herodotus that images of the gods were entirely unknown to the Persians. Still, they did not deny themselves a certain use of symbolic representations of their deities, nor did they even scruple to adopt from idolatrous nations the forms of their religious symbolism. The winged circle, with or without the addition of a human figure, which was in Assyria the emblem of the chief Assyrian deity, Asshur, became with the Persians the ordinary representation of the Supreme God, Ormazd, and, as such, was placed in most conspicuous positions on their rock tombs and on their buildings.

The religious observances enjoined on the members of the priestly caste were innumerable and minute. Ahura-mazdâ and his colleagues had not, as was the fashion among the Assyrians and Egyptians, either temples or tabernacles, and though they were represented sometimes under human or animal forms, and even in some cases on bas-reliefs, yet no one ever ventured to set up in their sanctuaries those so-called animated or prophetic statues to which the majority of the nations had rendered or were rendering their solicitous homage. Altars, however, were erected on the tops of hills, in palaces, or in the centre of cities, on which fires were kindled in honour of the inferior deities or of the supreme god himself.


The number 1000 seems to have had some ritualistic significance, for it often recurs in the penances imposed on the faithful as expiation for their sins.

In the ninth century, it would appear, the religious life and thought of the Zoroastrian community was dominated by two brothers, both of whom were high priest. The one was Manushchihr, High Priest of Shiraz and Kirman, the other Zatsparam, High Priest of Sirkan. Both brothers have left treatises dealing with the central doctrines of Zoroastrianism, and it is clear from Manushchihr's own Epistles, which are directed explicitly against his brother's innovations in the matter of purifactory rites, that he regarded him as little better than a Manichee. 'You should know,' Manushchihr writes to his brother, 'that were you to speak in the assembly of the Tughazghaz, you would find few to contradict you.' The Tughazghaz were not only a Turkish tribe, which was bad enough; they were also Manichee, which was very much worse. This was a serious accusation, and it is apparent from Zatsparam's own writings that the charge was not baseless. Zatsparam is Zurvanite to the extent that he at least recognized Zurvan, for him a highly personalized Infinite Time, as a principle independent of both Ohrmazd and Ahriman and as, in some sense, the arbiter between them. He was the last protagonist of a once powerful heresy.

Soma (Sanskrit sóma), or Haoma (Avestan), from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sauma-, was a ritual drink of importance among the early Indo-Iranians, and the subsequent Vedic and greater Persian cultures. Both Soma and the Avestan Haoma are derived from Proto-Indo-Iranian *sauma-. The name of the Scythian tribe Hauma-varga is related to the word, and probably connected with the ritual. The word is derived from an Indo-Iranian root *sav- (Sanskrit sav-/su) "to press", i.e. *sau-ma- is the drink prepared by pressing the stalks of a plant. The root is Proto-Indo-European (*sew(h)-) Loomus de Goomis.

Zurvan, the Zodiac, and the Millennium

Zurvan (Time) alone has infinite being, but when he gives birth to the good and evil twins, the battle between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman begins. It is Ahura Mazda, as indicated in the Ulema i-Islam version above, who needs to create finite time, the ‘Time of the long Dominion,’ which is always astrological, in order to set a limit to the battle between good and evil which will inevitably lead to his victory.

Sixty years after bulgarian conversion in christian religion (864y.) old bulgarian pagan religion (zurvanism/zoroastrism) rise in new form - BOGOMILISM. Like Zurvan known as the Good God, the name BOGOMIL(BOGAMIL) in bulgarian language mians Good God! The zurvanian and bogomilian doctrines about the universe, the world, and god are perfectly identical!

OOga BooGA §§


Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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Encarta - HISTORY OF SILK © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Silk is one of the oldest known textile fibers and, according to Chinese tradition, was used as long ago as the 27th century bc. The silkworm moth was originally a native of China, and for about 30 centuries the gathering and weaving of silk was a secret process, known only to the Chinese. Tradition credits Hsi-ling-shi, the 14-year-old bride of the Emperor Huang Ti, with the discovery of the potential of the cocoon and the invention of the first silk reel. China successfully guarded the secret until ad300, when Japan, and later India, penetrated the secrecy.

References in the Old Testament indicate that silk was known in biblical times in western Asia, from which it was presumably transplanted to the Greek Islands of the Aegean Sea. The Chinese are believed to have built up a lucrative trade with the West from the days of the Han dynasty in the 2nd century bc. The ancient Persian courts used Chinese silks, unraveled and rewoven into Persian designs. When Darius III, king of Persia, surrendered to Alexander the Great, he was clothed in such silken splendor that Alexander was completely overshadowed and demanded as spoils the equivalent of $7 million in silk. - [Note: already mentioned]

The Indo-European Tocharian languages also have been attested in the same geographical area, and although the first known epigraphic evidence dates to the 6th century CE, the degree of differentiation between Tocharian A and Tocharian B, and the absence of Tocharian language remains beyond that area, tends to indicate that a common Tocharian language existed in the same area during the second half of the 1st millennium BCE.

The Chinese official Zhang Qian, who visited Bactria and Sogdiana in 126 BCE, made the first known Chinese report on many regions to the west of China. He believed he discerned Greek influences in some of these kingdoms. He names Parthia "Ānxī", a transliteration of "Arsacid", the name of the Parthian dynasty. Zhang Qian clearly identifies Parthia as an advanced urban civilization that farmed grain and grapes, and manufactured silver coins and leather goods. Zhang Qian equated Parthia's level of advancement to the cultures of Dayuan in Ferghana and Daxia in Bactria.

The ancient Irish swore their oaths by the "Three Realms" - Land, Sea and Sky. Based on this precedent, reconstructed Gaelic ritual structures acknowledge the Land, Sea and Sky, with the fire of inspiration as a central force that unites the realms.

Fénius Farsaid (also Phoeniusa, Phenius, Féinius; Farsa, Farsaidh, many variant spellings) is a legendary king of Scythia who shows up in different versions of Irish folklore. According to some traditions, he was the creator of the Ogham alphabet and the Gaelic language. Auraicept claims that Fenius Farsaidh discovered four alphabets, the Hebrew, Greek and Latin ones, and finally the Ogham, and that the Ogham is the most perfected because it was discovered last.

The fertile Fergana Valley was an important conduit on the Silk Roads (more precisely the North Silk Road), which connected the ancient Chinese capital of Xi'an to the west over the Wushao Ling Mountain Pass to Wuwei and emerging in Kashgar before linking to ancient Parthia, or on to the north of the Aral and Caspian Seas to ports on the Black Sea.

The ancient kingdom referred to as Dayuan ("Great Yuan", literally "Great Ionians") in the Chinese chronicles is now generally accepted as being in the Ferghana Valley. It is sometimes, though less commonly, written as Dawan Dayuan were Greeks, the descendants of the Greek colonists that were settled by Alexander the Great in Ferghana in 329 BCE, and prospered within the Hellenistic realm of the Seleucids and Greco-Bactrians, until they were isolated by the migrations of the Yuezhi around 160 BCE. It has been suggested that the name "Yuan" was simply a transliteration of the words “Yona”, or “Yavana”, used throughout antiquity in Asia to designate Greeks (“Ionians”). Their capital was Alexandria Eschate.

The people are also settled on the land, plowing the fields and growing rice and wheat. They also make wine out of grapes. The region has many fine horses which sweat blood;[apparently due to skin parasites which caused sores] their forebears are supposed to have been foaled from heavenly horses. The people live in houses in fortified cities, there being some seventy or more cities of various sizes in the region. The population numbers several hundred thousand. The people fight with bows and spears and can shoot from horseback. Dayuan is bordered on the north by Kangju {Note: Cain]" ... Da Yuan appears as a powerful state in both the Shiji and the Hanshu.

By the time of the Weilüe (in the 3rd century CE), the old capital, Alexandria Eschate (modern Khujand), had become a separate kingdom called 'Northern Wuyi.' Zoroastrian literature identifies the area as the Zoroastrian homeland.

[Note: I think Fergana is an important Cotton Region as well as Jade, lost this.] - [Note: already mentioned]

Cimmerians are known from historical records to have invaded Anatolia around this period, while the Thracians are mentioned as far back as the Iliad and Odyssey, where they participate in the Trojan War; Thracologists and archaeologists generally trace back the Thracians to the Balkan/Carpatho-Danubian Chalcolithic period (Hoddinott et al.). It is sometimes assumed that the migration of the Cimmerians was triggered by an Iranian expansion. The Sigynnae, reported by classical authors as a tribe of the Black Sea steppes related to the Medes, may have invaded the area about the time of the Cimmerian expansion.

The Atharavaveda-Parishishta associates them with the Sakas, Greeks and Bactrians. It also juxtaposes the Kambojas [Note: Cambyses - slightly mentioned in passing before] with the Bactrians. This shows they probably were neighbors in the Transoxian region. The Rishikas are said to be same people as the Yuezhi. The Kushanas or Kanishkas are also the same people. M. A. Stein proposed that the Tukharas were the same as the Yuezhi. P. C. Bagchi holds that the Yuezhi, Tocharioi and Tushara were identical.

The Parama Kambojas of the Trans-Pamirs, mentioned in the Mahabharata are said to be related to the Rishikas who are placed in Sakadvipa (or Scythia). B. N. Puri takes the Kambojas to be a branch of the Tukharas. Some scholars state that the Kambojas were a branch of the Yuezhi.

Sabha Parva of Mahabharata states that the Parama Kambojas, Lohas and the Rishikas were allied tribes. Like the "Parama Kambojas" ("most distant Kambojas"), the Rishikas of the Transoxian region are similarly styled as "most distant" or "Parama Rishikas". Based on the syntactical construction of the Mahabharata verses 5.5.15 and 2.27.25, Ishwa Mishra believes that the Rishikas were a section of the Kambojas, i.e. Parama Kambojas.


Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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The largest columns are of granite, about 19 or 20 metres high and at least 1.5 metres in diameter; the largest weigh well over 70 tons apiece.

Baalbek is a town in the Bekaa Valley of Lebanon, altitude 1,170 metres (3,840 ft), situated east of the Litani River. It is famous for its exquisitely detailed yet monumentally scaled temple ruins. [During] the Roman period, Baalbek [was] known as Heliopolis, was one of the largest sanctuaries in the Empire. It can be counted among the wonders of the ancient world.

The gods worshiped here, the triad of Jupiter, Venus and Bacchus, were grafted onto the indigenous deities of Hadad, Atargatis and a young male god of fertility.

The history settlement in the area of Baalbek dates back about 9000 years, with almost continual settlement of the tell under the Temple of Jupiter, which was probably a temple since the pre-Hellenistic era.

After Alexander the Great conquered the Near East in 334 BC, the existing settlement was named Heliopolis from helios, Greek for sun, and polis, Greek for city.

These magnificent columns, 20 meters tall and of enormous weight, are known to have been quarried in Aswan, Egypt but how they were actually transported by land and sea to Baalbek remains an engineering mystery.

The massive stones range in size from thirty to thirty three feet in length, fourteen feet in height and ten feet in depth, and weigh approximately 450 tons each. -

Another even larger stone lies in a limestone quarry a quarter of a mile from the Baalbek complex. Weighing an estimated 1200 tons, it is sixty-nine feet by sixteen feet by thirteen feet ten inches, making it the single largest piece of stonework ever crafted in the world.

The incredible weight and dimensions of this foundation to the Temple of the Great King Solomon. Biblical passages (I Kings, IX: 17-19) mention the name of King Solomon in connection with a place that may be ancient Baalbek (“And Solomon built Gezer and Beth-Horon, the lower, and Baalath and Tadmor in the wilderness”), but most scholars are hesitant to equate this Baalath with Baalbek and therefore deny any connection between Solomon and the ruins.

(No LOL OK Judean & Hittite maybe)

In about 560 AD, the Byzantine Emperor Justinian appropriated eight of the columns for the basilica of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople (Istanbul). The ceiling of the portico is of carved limestone decorated with scenes of the gods in action--Vulcan with his hammer, Diana with her bow and quiver of arrows, a winged Victory.

Excavations indicate the site was occupied as early as 2300 BC by the Phoenicians, a sea-faring people known in the Bible as the Canaanites who worshipped the god Baal. When Alexander the Great marched through the Beqa'a Valley on the way to Damascus in 334 BC, Baalbek was known as Heliopolis, the "city of the sun," the name given to this important religious center by the Ptolemies of Egypt, the rulers of the time.

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"Ancient World." Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity. Ed. Dinah L. Shelton. Gale Cengage, 2005. 2006. 11 Feb, 2011

Genocides, one can surmise, may be as old as civilization itself. The many ancient cases of disappeared peoples and cultures may not always point to genocide, but the possibility that many of these peoples were the victims of genocide seems very likely. The reason for this is that awareness of genocide was widespread in antiquity and the frequent reports of its occurrence indicate that genocide was commonplace.

In Homer's Iliad, the Greek forces invading Troy have no qualms about planning the total destruction of its people. In Book IV, Agamemnon rouses Menelaus: My dear Menelaus, why are you so chary of taking men's lives? Did the Trojans treat you as handsomely as that when they stayed in your house? No; we are not going to leave a single one of them alive, down to the babies in their mothers' wombs—not even they must live. The whole people must be wiped out of existence, and none be let to think of them and shed a tear.

One such example (of the erratic and undependable character of ancient historiography) is the story of the victory of the Egyptian pharaoh Ramses II over the Hittites (a nation of Asia Minor). The story of the Egyptian victory was for centuries relied on as historically correct, until an archaeological discovery in the late nineteenth century proved that not only did the Hittites win this battle, they also signed a peace treaty with the Egyptians. An interesting feature of the Hittite society is the way they are alleged to have treated their enemies. Unlike the Assyrians, who had a reputation for widespread brutality, the Hittites apparently did not commit genocide. Once an enemy was defeated, the inhabitants of the conquered nation would be taken into custody and distributed as slaves among the Hittite elites.

The Hittites were at variance with the (presumed) general atmosphere of genocidal warfare in antiquity is subject to argument. In the ancient Mediterranean world, it was the reputation of Medes and Babylonians to have possessed no aversion to using exceptionally lethal techniques in warfare. There are several accounts of Medes and Babylonians (independently and jointly) slaughtering the inhabitants of enemy cities, but perhaps the most famous account would be that of the assault on Nineveh, the capital city of Assyria, in 612 BCE, wherein Medes and Babylonians united to destroy the city. After a two-month siege, the city was pillaged, severed heads were put on display at its main entrance, and the city itself was reduced to rubble.

Most ancient Indian political theorists glorified war and kings displayed their power through military might. War was central to defining the epic traditions of early India, and it is described in graphic detail in the texts. However, few of the reigning monarchs of the period left records of their thoughts on the nature of human suffering as a result of war. One exception occurred during the period of Mauryan rule (321–185 BCE), which included one of the first attempts at empire-building on the Indian subcontinent. Emperor Ashoka Maurya, who in his edicts is called "Beloved of the Gods" (Devanampiya Piyadassi), invaded a region then called Kalinga in about 260 BCE. In his thirteenth Rock Edict, the emperor admits: "A hundred and fifty thousand people were deported, a hundred thousand were killed and many times that number perished." This record is unique, because the king also expresses remorse for the "slaughter, death and deportation of the people [that was] extremely grievous to the Beloved of the Gods and [had weighed] heavily on his mind. In the same record, Ashoka recognizes that everyone, from the Brahmins (priests) and shramans (ascetics) down to the ordinary householders, had suffered "violence, murder, and separation from their loved ones" (Thapar, 1997, pp. 255–256).

An illustrative passage of the Matsya Purana reads thus:

There will be Yavanas (foreigners) here by reason of religious feeling (dharma) or ambition or plunder; they will not be kings solemnly anointed, but will follow evil customs by reason of the corruption of the age. Massacring women and children, and killing one another, kings will enjoy the earth at the end of the Kali Age (Parasher, 1991, p. 243)

It is well known that before an indigenous Indo-Muslim state was established in India in 1192 CE, there had been several raids by Persianized Turks who looted major cities and temples to support their power bases in Afghanistan. One such raid was in 968 CE by Sabuktigin (r. 977–997 CE), who ravaged the territory of the Hindu Shahi kings between Afghanistan and western Punjab. The Sharh-I Tarikhi Yamini of Utbi describes how places inhabited by infidels were burnt down, temples and idols demolished, and Islam established: "The jungles were filled with the carcasses of the infidels, some wounded by the sword, and others fallen dead through fright. It is the order of God respecting those who have passed away, that infidels should be put to death" (Elliot, 1964, p. 22).

The sources that have come down to us chronicling these crimes against humanity were framed within ideological and political concerns. They should be read as selective representations and thus treated as only partial constructions of the historical reality rooted in the concerns of either the colonial state or the modern nation. The historian must therefore interpret both the primary source and all subsequent interpretations in order to more accurately understand the events that occurred so far in the past.

This is one of the most mysterious cultures of the New World. The obscure native culture named Gallina occupied a small zone of northwestern New Mexico around A.D. 1100 but by 1275 they were all gone. Now, seven Gallina skeletons (five adults, one child and one infant), appearing to have been victims of a brutal massacre in an ancient campaign of genocide, could solve more of their mystery.

"The newfound skeletons could provide crucial clues to the people's mysterious fate, since scarcely more than a hundred Gallina remains have ever been found," said Tony Largaespada, an archaeologist with the U.S. Forest Service who made the discovery in 2005. "Almost all of [the Gallina ever found] were murdered. [someone] was just killing them, case after case, every single time."

A massive deposit of mutilated and processed human remains has been found in the American Southwest. The remains and other artifacts at the site, Sacred Ridge in Colorado, indicate ethnic cleansing took place there in the early ninth century. The genocide likely occurred due to conflict between different Anasazi Ancestral Puebloan ethnic groups.

Crushed leg bones, battered skulls and other mutilated human remains are likely all that's left of a Native American population destroyed by genocide that took place circa 800 A.D., suggests a new study. The paper, accepted for publication in the Journal of Anthropological Archaeology, describes the single largest deposit to date of mutilated and processed human remains in the American Southwest.

The entire assemblage comprises 14,882 human skeletal fragments, as well as the mutilated remains of dogs and other animals killed at the massacre site -- Sacred Ridge, southwest of Durango, Colo. Based on the archaeological findings, which include two-headed axes that tested positive for human blood, co-authors Jason Chuipka and James Potter believe the genocide occurred as a result of conflict between different Anasazi Ancestral Puebloan ethnic groups."It was entirely an inside job," Chuipka, an archaeologist with Woods Canyon Archaeological Consultants, told Discovery News.

[Note: I mention these last 2 articles, because of the Cherokee who are mentioned in connection with these areas]

Classical Sparta - Ben Kiernan, "Sparta," in Encyclopedia of Genocide and Crimes Against Humanity, Macmillan, 2005, v. II, pp. 986-88

The Roman Destruction of Carthage, 146 B.C. Ben Kiernan, "The First Genocide: Carthage, 146 BC," Diogenes 203, 2004 pp. 27-39.


Egyptologists still don't know the identities of the two mummies whose heads were ripped off during a break-in at Cairo's Egyptian Museum. Vandalized a week ago at Cairo's Egyptian Museum, where thieves looking for antiquities broke 70 objects, the mummies have become the symbol of the world's concern for ancient Egyptian cultural heritage. The shocking image of their heads lying on the floor of the Egyptian Museum with broken bones scattered all around have been haunting Egyptologists and mummy experts for a week. "It's starting to take on the hallmarks of a TV drama like 'Bones' or 'CSI.'

Astrological Scene Found on Egyptian Tomb Ceiling

Brightly painted astrological scenes have emerged on the ceiling of an ancient Egyptian tomb, according to a statement released on Wednesday by the Supreme Council of Antiquities. The scenes, which include a depiction of the sky goddess Nut, have been found in the burial chamber of a Nubian priest in the el-Asasif area on the west bank of Luxor. The room is in very good condition and contains beautiful painted scenes in vivid colors. Blue and yellow dominate the ceiling, as the goddess Nut welcomes with raised arms the body of the deceased. Karakhamun ... a priest who lived during the 25th dynasty (755-656 B.C.).

Human ancestors that left Africa hundreds of thousands of years ago to see the rest of the world were no landlubbers. Stone hand axes unearthed on the Mediterranean island of Crete indicate that an ancient Homo species -- perhaps Homo erectus -- had used rafts or other seagoing vessels to cross from northern Africa to Europe via at least some of the larger islands in between, says archaeologist Thomas Strasser of Providence College in Rhode Island.

Until now, the oldest known human settlements on Crete dated to around 9,000 years ago. Traditional theories hold that early farming groups in southern Europe and the Middle East first navigated vessels to Crete and other Mediterranean islands at that time. "We're just going to have to accept that, as soon as hominids left Africa, they were long-distance seafarers and rapidly spread all over the place."

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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Kittim (or Chittim) in the genealogy of Genesis 10 in the Hebrew Bible, is the son of Javan, the grandson of Japheth, and Noah's great-grandson. Cyprus, was known in ancient times as Kition, or (in Latin) Citium. On this basis, Flavius Josephus (c. 100 AD) identified the Kittim with Cyprus, however the name seems to have been employed with some flexibility in Hebrew literature, and was sometimes used to apply to the Romans, Macedonians or Assyrians. Some authors[citation needed] have speculated that it comes from an Akkadian word meaning "invaders". Others (following Max Müller) have identified Kittim with the land of Hatti (Khatti), as the Hittite Empire was known.

Some authors[citation needed] have speculated that it comes from an Akkadian word meaning "invaders". Others (following Max Müller) have identified Kittim with the land of Hatti (Khatti), as the Hittite Empire was known. According to The Zondervan Pictorial Encyclopedia of the Bible, the name Kittim "is extended to include the W[est] in general, but esp[ecially] the seafaring W[est]." The 'New International Version' Bible renders the expression "ships of Kittim" (appearing in the Book of Daniel 11) as "ships of the western coastlands." In the War of the Sons of Light Against the Sons of Darkness from the Dead Sea Scrolls, the Kittim are referred to as being "of Asshur".

The mediaeval rabbinic compilation Yosippon contains a detailed account of the Kittim. As the peoples spread out, it says, the Kittim camped in Campania and built a city called "Posomanga", while descendants of Tubal camped in neighboring Tuscany and built "Sabino", with the Tiber river as their frontier. However, they soon went to war following the rape of the Sabines by the Kittim. This war was ended when the Kittim showed the descendants of Tubal their mutual progeny. They then built cities called Porto, Albano, and Aresah. Later, their territory is occupied by Agnias, King of Carthage, but the Kittim end up appointing Zepho, son of Eliphaz and grandson of Esau, as their king, with the title Janus Saturnus. The first king of Rome, Romulus, is made in this account to be a distant successor of this line. A shorter, more garbled version of this story is also found in the later Sefer haYashar.

Abianius A Gaulish god: The River God

This deity is known from three inscriptions in France and distinct from his name he may be a deity of navigation or trade.

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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This is Kinda off topic, but some of it applies

And this now seems to be a warm topic ... ^

Classical Religions and the Sun God

The universality of the sun god myth is indicated by listing the chief sun gods amongst the nations of the East and the Mediterranean:

In Egypt—Osiris, Horus, Serapis, Hermes or Taht (Thoth), Khunsu, Atum (Aten, Adon, the Adonis or Phrygia), Iusa, Iu-sa, Iu-em-hotep.

In Syria—Attis, Sabazius, Zagreus, Cybele (feminine).

In Assyria—Tammuz.

In Babylonia—Shamash, Marduk and Sargon.

In Persia—Mithras and Ahuramazda.

In Greece—Orpheus, Bacchus (Dionysus), Achilles, Hercules, Theseus, Perseus, Jason, Prometheus.

In India—Varuna, Mitra, Vyasa, Krishna, Buddha, and many others.

In Tibet—the Boddhisattvas.

Writing, order, regulation, commerce, all led to the growth of rational thinking and the decline of intuitive thinking. The result was the emergence of the patriarchal societies in place of the matriachal ones. Change in society led to new classes, and a powerful masculine god associated with the sun or the sky. The Great Mother was being displaced. Powerful princes were no longer intimidated by the intuitive and fertile powers of women. The patriarchs destroyed her temples and raped her priestesses. They had masculine gods created in their own image as warriors—then they claimed that they were gods themselves.

Mesopotamian Religion

In the earliest Sumerian texts the sun-god had to walk across the heavens. Soon, though, he got transport. The wheel had been discovered as flat wooden discs, but the spoked wheel was only invented about 5000 years ago, and it took on a particularly solar significance, the sun being a wheel or a set of wheels—a chariot—dashing daily across the sky, its spokes being rays. The religion of the Akkadians—Shamanism from the Semitic Shamas, sun—was phallic and astronomical. They had their Trinity—a celestial father and mother and their offspring, the sun god. [Note: Foot then Wheel]

Two entirely different peoples cooperated in making the civilization of Babylonia, and this meant a double series of nature gods. The Sumerians had Snu (sky god), Ea (earth and water god), Sin (moon god), Nusku (fire god), and so on. Then there were Shamash (another sun god), Marduk (a third sun god), Ishtar (of love and war), Tammuz (ancient fertility god), and others. The spirits in the minor departments of Nature, common to all religions at first, remained mere spirits.

These peoples invented the Sabbath day because the last day of the week was ruled by the god Saturn who was deemed unlucky so people opted not to work on that day for fear of misfortune. They had their holy water, an ark containing the images of their gods, penitential psalms and tables of show-bread. The creation stories of Genesis and The Flood, like the ritual, dress, and furniture of the Jewish Temple, are all Babylonian. [Note: Haha Caught you again, O (un)lucky one!]

Sky gods are remote, and seemed to get more remote until they become transcendental and require lesser gods to intercede between them and the lowly humans who felt they needed them. Enlil took over and created mankind by breaking the soil with his pickaxe. The first humans emerged. Later the kings of the Assyrian Empire called themselves the sun of the whole of mankind, and their god, Assur, was a sun god, whose symbols were a winged solar disk and an eagle. He took on so many characteristics of the gods beneath him in the pantheon that he was virtually an absolute god. However since the Assyrians were a military people, their god had to have the aspect of a warrior and Assur was also shown as a bowman beside a solar disc.

The Land Of Devils

Babylonia was a land of gods and goddesses but it was also a land of innumerable devils. It was the source of the weird belief in legions of malignant spirits. The Babylonian concept is the generally Semitic one, held before the Persians arrived with their new religion from the east, Zoroastrianism.

One large class of the Babylonian devils has the express title “shades of the dead”. Other and more powerful demons are clearly gods of an earlier generation whom a more successful religion has turned into devils. Alongside of the elaborate religion, the virtual monotheism, of the priests and the educated. The Western Semites, of Canaan, Syria, Phœnicia, Phrygia, and Asia Minor, held many of the ideas of the Eastern Semites. Bel became Baal, Ishtar became Ashtoreth or Astarte. They had also the legend of the dying sun god, and of a flood. Asher was Priapus, the phallic god.

A figure of the sun god Mithras shows the god plunging a knife into a bull and, while the bull is attacked from below by a scorpion and a dog laps the blood which flows from the wound. The allusion is to the sun entering into the zodiacal sign Taurus at the vernal equinox and the fate which compels its return to wintry depths through the autumnal sign Scorpio. The first day of the week, Sunday, was dedicated to Mithras, whose devotees were baptized and marked on the forehead with the holy sign of the cross, and solemnly partook of a round cake and water.

"Biblical Dark Ages" (From Nimrod to Sargon)

Grafted onto the Root of Adam

The two lists are almost identical. They both begin with an Adam and end with a Lemekh and a Noah. With the exception of Seth, the names are also very closely matched - they have only slightly different spelling and ordering. [Note: Do the Lingo & Math Beast]

Suffering Serpent

The Book of Ecclesiastes reveals the ancient mindset that compelled Imhotep to emulate Thoth: "What has been will be again, what has been done will be done again; there is nothing new under the sun. Is there anything of which one can say, 'Look! This is something new'? It was here already, long ago; it was here before our time. There is no remembrance of men of old, and even those who are yet to come will not be remembered by those who follow."

Unity Breeds Division

Old Kingdom Egypt reached the pyramidion of its greatness by the end of the 5th Dynasty. However, the prosperity was due more to sustained unification of the "world" rather than devotion to Re or the beneficence of the Nile in Egypt. Likewise, the collapse of the Old Kingdom should not be attributed to a failure of the annual flood, but to a rupture in the royal family. The feud began during the long reign of Mesilim (Egy. Djedkare), the final ruler of the 2nd Dynasty of Kish. The reign of Djedkare possibly extended over four decades in Egypt. Reigns of this length invariably led to succession battles. While Mesilim was alive, the rival princes Ur-Nanshe of Lagash and Ush of Umma accepted terms of peace, and a "standing stone" was placed as a boundary between their respective inheritances. This stela was uprooted by Ush, presumably upon Mesilim's death, who then founded the independent dynasty of Umma. In succeeding generations, an uneasy parity was maintained between the two territories and inter-related royal houses. Ur-Nanshe had been the designated successor to the greater throne of Mesilim (Djedkare-Isesi). Ur-Nanshe assumed the similar sounding name of Unas in Egypt. Judging from the vain boasting of Unas in the Pyramid Texts mentioned above, he had something to prove. He was the first pharaoh in many generations who did not possess absolute power over the "four quarters of the world." [Note: History Cycles, Time Rivers]

Sargon, the Water Boy who would be Lord of the Seas

Sargon does not name his own mother, but simply refers to her as a "changeling." This word can be translated as "high priestess." However, the title has a deeper meaning that connects to the nature of Sargon's birth and character. Although Sargon was not raised by his real father, he was not necessarily born out of wedlock. In the tradition of the ancient royal court, a "barren" wife could discretely consort with one or more close male relatives in order to produce an heir for her husband. The mother of Sargon was compelled to "change" sexual partners. As a result, she was venerated by Sargon as an Inanna (Isis-Ishtar) figure. Inanna became the patron goddess of Sargon and his dynasty. So much so that the dynasty of Sargon was called the "Dynasty of Ishtar." The adjective changeling could be interpreted as "possessing a unique or unusual physical trait." There was probably "something different" about this woman. Alternatively, changeling may suggest "agent or proponent of change."

Spilling a River of Blood, Drowning in a Whirlpool

Naram-Sin was eventually able to mount successful campaigns as far west as the Mediterranean Sea and into the Taurus Mountains of modern day Turkey. On the island of Cyprus he was proclaimed a god. To the north he subdued Armenia, and to the east he annexed Elam.

Naram-Sin was then able to turn his attention to Ur-Bau (Manishtushu) and his rebel son. One would think that the assassin Montuhotep II would have been the primary object of his revenge. However, this may not have been the case. Manishtushu (Montuhotep I) may have been the target instead. In his inscriptions, Naram-Sin claimed to have captured the king of Egypt, who is variously called Manium and Mannu-Dannu.

One Sumerian scholar defines Gu-dea as "the one who is called to power" Within the multi-lingual royal court, gu-dea (deo) would also signify "(the one who is ) proclaimed (as) God," or in a Biblical sense, declared to be Israel. The name probably reflected the newly won status of Sargon at the birth of this son, however Gudea made both the name and the title his own. Taken as Gu-de-a, the name suggests "Verbosity." If archaeology is any indication, Gudea was a prolific communicator. Two cylinder scrolls containing almost 1400 lines of text commemorate the painstaking process and intense passion with which Gudea built and dedicated the main temple of Lagash in Girsu. It is the lengthiest of all surviving Sumerian texts. Another Sumerologist interprets the name Gudea as something akin to "prophet". "The "Guda" was an important type of Sumerian priest.

Broken down as Gud-e-a, this name connotes "Rampaging Bull." This interpretation reflects the rage with which Gudea led the Gutian horde against Naram-Sin. Gudea is also very similar in form to the Akkadian names Tudiya and Dudu, both meaning "beloved of God." An even more liberal translation would be as a hybrid Sumerian-Akkadian name, that is, Gud-ea, "Bull of Ea." Ea/Enki was called the "Bull of Eridu." In Egypt, the sacred bull of Ptah (Ea/Enki) was the renowned Apis Bull. At this time, a transition from Sumerian to Semitic language was taking place. Those who depreciate the quality of the statuary likely do so because Gudea is presently not considered to have been a Sumerian prince, but a barbarian with unknown antecedents.

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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While watching my favorite ancient Korean drama's a prophecy on Kim Suro the 1st King of the Gaya Confederacy stated that 9 Kings or Khans would give there power [or something to that effect] to him, and this seemed to be tied to some ancient site, an egg/meteor? like relic & the Pleiades.

Suro, or Sureung (? - 199), commonly called Kim Suro, was the legendary founder and king of the state of Geumgwan Gaya in southeastern Korea.

According to the founding legend of Geumgwan Gaya recorded in the 13th century texts of the chronicle Garakguk-gi of Samguk Yusa, King Suro was one of six princes born from eggs that descended from the sky in a golden bowl wrapped in red cloth. Suro was the firstborn among them and led the others in setting up 6 states while asserting the leadership of the Gaya confederacy.

Also according to legend, King Suro's queen Heo Hwang-ok was a princess from the Indian country of Ayuta. She is said to have arrived in Gaya by boat. They had ten sons in all, two of whom took the mother's family name. Ayuta is today often identified with Ayodhya in India, and the tale has gained modern significance in the light of the modern-day relations between Korea and India.

The legend as a whole is seen as indicative of the early view of kings as descended from heaven. Notably, a number of Korean kingdoms with ties to chickens and eggs. Jumong, the founding king of Goguryeo, is said to have been born from an egg laid by Lady Yuhwa of Buyeo; Bak Hyeokgeose, the first king of Saro-guk, or Silla, is said to have hatched from an egg discovered in a well; and Kim Alji, the progenitor of the Kim dynasty of Shilla, is said to have been discovered in Gyerim Forest by Hogong in a golden box, where a rooster was crowing. Aspects of the legend have been mined for information about the customs of Gaya, of which little is known. [Note: Thanx SJ22 For Earlier Domesticated Chicken References - Now I'm wondering if eggs and meteorites have a connection?!?]

According to the Samguk Yusa, Geumgwan Kaya was made of 9 villages united by King Suro of Gaya. During this early time in the history of Gaya, several waves of migration from the north, including the earlier-extant Gojoseon, Buyeo, and the Goguryeo, arrived and integrated with existing populations and stimulated cultural and political developments. A sharp break in burial styles is found in archaeological sites dated near the late 3rd century AD, when these migrations are to have taken place. Burial forms associated with North Asian nomadic peoples, such as the burial of horses with the dead, suddenly replace earlier forms in the tombs of the elite.

Gaya's plains were rich in iron, so export of iron tools to other countries was possible and agriculture flourished. Constantly engaged in war with the three kingdoms surrounding it, Gaya was ultimately absorbed into Silla in 562. Skanda and some other Puranas rank Ayodhya as one of the seven most sacred cities of India.

[Ayodhya] is closely associated with Lord Rama, the seventh incarnation of Lord Vishnu. The ancient city of Ayodhya, according to the Ramayana, was founded by Manu, the law-giver of the Hindu.

Encarta @ Property of Microsoft All Rights Reserved

Uttar Pradesh is India’s most populous state with a population of 166,052,859 (2001). An ancient city, Ayodhya was already an important trade center by 600 BC and was for a time the capital of the powerful kingdom of Kosala. Historians have identified Ayodhya as being the same as a town once known as Saketa

Moses, the Pleiades and the Nebra Sky Disk - [Note: 3 Stars between Sun & Crescent Moon are Planets!]


The seven sisters of the Pleiades: stories from around the world By Munya Andrews - page 10 & 11.

[Note:German-Plejaden: was Pleiades associated with Blue/Green or Jade? Sailng Stars, Electrum, Unsinkable-Unconquerable, Polynesians] - THE HOPI BLUE STAR PROPHECY [Pleiades]


Oh, the Gold Helm [Note: Bumped on Top] I previously mentioned in the Troy thread that I associated with a shark fin may also refer to the withers of a horse. The shape is much closer. It is from the top of the shoulder blades that the horn of a saddle, pretty much rests on.

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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Hematite, also spelled as haematite, is the mineral form of iron(III) oxide (Fe2O3), one of several iron oxides. Hematite crystallizes in the rhombohedral system, and it has the same crystal structure as ilmenite and corundum. Hematite and ilmenite form a complete solid solution at temperatures above 950°C. Hematite is harder than pure iron, but much more brittle. The name hematite is derived from the Greek word for blood.

The red chalk winning of this mineral was one of the earliest in history of mankind. The powdery mineral was first used 164,000 years ago by the Pinnacle-Point man obviously for social differentiation. Rich deposits of hematite have been found on the island of Elba that have been mined till the time of the Etruscans. Hematite is present in the waste tailings of iron mines. A recently developed process, magnetation, uses huge magnets to glean waste hematite from old mine tailings in Minnesota's vast Mesabi Range iron district.

Evidence that iron was used is found, for example, in the hieroglyphics of the tomb of Rameses III, where the blades of some of the weapons are painted blue while others are painted red, a distinction believed to be due to the fact that some were made of iron or steel and some of brass. After the discovery of iron, it was evidently a long time in replacing bronze. This was probably due to the difficulties in smelting it.

An old mountaineer once described to the writer the process of iron smelting as it was carried on in Mt. Lebanon in past centuries. As a boy he had watched his father, who was a smelter, operate one of the last furnaces to be fired. For each firing, many cords of wood, especially green oak branches, were used, and several days of strenuous pumping at the eight bellows was necessary to supply the air blast. As a result a small lump of wrought iron was removed from the bottom of the furnace after cooling. The iron thus won was carried to Damascus where it was made into steel by workers who kept their methods secret. This process, which has not been worked now for years, was undoubtedly the same as was used by the ancients. It is not at all unlikely that the Lebanon iron, transformed into steel, was what was referred to as "northern iron" in Jeremiah 15:12. Shall iron break the northern iron and the steel? [Note: 8 bellows snakes plus 1 opening]

Iron was used in Biblical times much as it is today. For a description of a smith at work see Ecclesiasticus 38:28. Huge city gates, overlaid with strips of iron (Psalm 107:16 Isaiah 45:2), held in place by crude square-headed nails (1 Chronicles 22:3), are still a familiar sight in the larger cities of Palestine and Syria (Acts 12:10). Threshing instruments were made of iron (Amos 1:3); so also harrows (2 Samuel 12:31), axes (ib; 2 Kings 6:6; see Ax), branding irons (1 Timothy 4:2), and other tools (1 Kings 6:7). There were iron weapons (Numbers 35:16 Job 20:24), armor (2 Samuel 23:7), horns (1 Kings 22:11), fetters (Psalm 105:18), chariots (Joshua 17:16), yokes (Jeremiah 28:14), breastplates (Revelation 9:9), pens (chisels) (Job 19:24 Jeremiah 17:1), sheets or plates (Ezekiel 4:3), gods (Daniel 5:4), weights (1 Samuel 17:7), bedsteads (Deuteronomy 3:11). Iron was used extensively in building the temple.

The IVP Bible background commentary: Old Testament By John H. Walton, Victor Harold Matthews, Mark William Chavalas - page 506.

Palestine, like Mesopotamia, was generally poor in mineral resources. there are numerous deposits of poor quality, but only a few high quality ones. The only major deposit is at Mugharat el-Wardeh in the Ajlun Hills by the Jabbok river [near Az Zarqa, Ammon, Jordan]? Copper mining sites are mostly in Trans-Jordan. While iron can be mined on the surface, copper mining required shafts.

Iron can be smelted at temperatures exceeding 1100°C, somewhat above the melting point of gold (1065°C). The result of this smelting process is useless as a material unless hammered hot. In antiquity, casting was not achieved anywhere but in China. The required temperature of 1530°C was not reached in western Eurasia until the Middle Ages. All other metals used by the Egyptians either had a low melting point and/or could be worked cold. The tools for hammering were hand-held stones. When a workpiece had to be heated its temperature was not high enough to affect the bronze tools used to handle it. Iron required shatterproof hammers with handles and iron tongs to hold the workpiece in place.

An additional problem was the fact that pure iron is barely harder than bronze. Carburizing, i.e. the addition of a small amount of carbon (between about ½ and 2%) and quenching turned the iron into steel suitable for weapons and tool manufacture.

Iron: The Date of its common use in Palestine

Archeological evidence establishes the time when man first produced iron for weapons at about 1000 BC. It points unmistakenly to Central Euope {Hallstatt} and the Assyrian Uplands as the most probable origin.

Jabin king of Canaan, had 900 chariots of iron, implies that we are approaching the Iron Age. Tutankhamun, the wealthy boy-king of Egypt, lived in LBIIA and had two iron daggers buried with him as evidence of his great wealth and power - there was no question of him having iron chariots (whether made of iron or decorated with it).

In fact, iron was so scarce at the time of the Exodus that its use in a killing was prima facie evidence of murder (Number 35:16).

Psalms 107:16 For he hath broken the gates of brass, and cut the bars of iron in sunder.

Isaiah 45:2 I will go before thee, and make the crooked places straight: I will break in pieces the gates of brass, and cut in sunder the bars of iron:

Judges 16:3 Samson "took hold of the doors of the city gate, together with the two posts, and tore them loose, bar and all. He lifted them to his shoulders and carried them to the top of the hill that faces Hebron."

These massive gates were studded with iron railroad like spikes and covered with heavy gauge metal to make them fireproof. They thought Samson was trapped but they had not realized his enormous strength. He took hold of the heavy framework. His muscles bulged as he strained. The gates came loose along with their heavy posts and iron bar over the top.

There are many riddles connected with ancient metallurgy. One possibility is that people experimenting with mineral pigments discovered accidentally that they contained metals. This theory is attractive because iron and copper minerals are also brightly-colored natural pigments and it furnishes a likely setting for people to tinker with various methods and observe the results. But the most likely setting to discover smelting is one where high temperatures are routinely applied, preferably under oxygen poor conditions, where ore minerals were likely to be placed, and where the process would be repeated often enough for people to observe cause and effect clearly. Such a place was known in ancient times: pottery kilns. Mineral pigments used in coloring and glazing pottery would occasionally have been chemically reduced to pure metal (and often are in primitive kilns today).

By the Middle Bronze Age, increasing numbers of smelted iron objects (distinguishable from meteoric iron by the lack of nickel in the product) appeared throughout Anatolia, Mesopotamia, the Indian subcontinent, the Levant, the Mediterranean, and Egypt. The earliest systematic production and use of iron implements originates in Anatolia, beginning around 2000 BCE. Recent archaeological research in the Ganges Valley, India showed early iron working by 1800 BC

Snodgrass suggests that a shortage of tin, as a result of the Bronze Age Collapse and trade disruptions in the Mediterranean around 1300 BCE, forced people to seek an alternative to bronze. That many bronze items were recycled and made from implements into weapons during this time is evidence of this.

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My Take on Troy, Earliest Civilizations and Settlements.

ADDED: I recall a tribe (or two) that allow their dead to be eaten by vultures.

I believe this is akin to the last sign of the zodiac (in Leo?), something like the symbol pictured in the middle of the Mexican Flag.

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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Just a question :

Where are those brave Spartan soldiers now ?! just :D !

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My Take on Troy, Earliest Civilizations and Settlements.

ADDED: I recall a tribe (or two) that allow their dead to be eaten by vultures.

I believe this is akin to the last sign of the zodiac (in Leo?), something like the symbol pictured in the middle of the Mexican Flag.

Sorry Klansman you've lost me now with regards the tribes. Undeniable some tribes or peoples early in time left their dead to decompose before burying the remains. Leo comes in the summer time so I'm not sure on that one either.

In times of war or death the people were anxious to cremate the bodies so say to send their spirits free. On a more earthly assessment and from the Iliad, Dares and Dikys as well all agree there were lulls/truces for clearing of the dead. Having lived in Australia I recall during bad droughts thousands of sheep and cattle dying and out of curiosity I had to go and look close up. Well if the wind came round into an unfavourable position it wasn't very pleasant to say the least. Also there is the vermin and flies which are attracted to the scene. (Plague) not only means disease in the modern sense but also in the torment which comes from plague's of flies and vermin stealing food from people etc, etc. These to me are good reasons why the bodies would not be left to rot.

Under less pressing times i.e. not at war, the odd body left on a bier to have it's bones cleaned I feel would be fair enough. I tell you you've put me in a spin here mate I'll have to have a rethink and come back to you.

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There coming, I've been running down leads for others.

I'll soon have this thread back on track starting with Darius and a little history before I work back.

This thread isn't overly important, but It will link the historacy of the Persian to a more ancient Troy.

After the groundwork, it may take a while to compile all the stuff in to tables, for easy access.

But, Im tired and I have other stuff to do that I've been neglecting.

Your welcome to add anything. Even happy faces.

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There coming, I've been running down leads for others.

I'll soon have this thread back on track starting with Darius and a little history before I work back.

This thread isn't overly important, but It will link the historacy of the Persian to a more ancient Troy.

After the groundwork, it may take a while to compile all the stuff in to tables, for easy access.

But, Im tired and I have other stuff to do that I've been neglecting.

Your welcome to add anything. Even happy faces.

Okay mate I'll do the same if I can. I might even manage an early night one day.

@ Persia

As for Spartans in any modern sense you'll be looking at elite troops within that particular countries army or whatever one supposes. As an extreme suicide bombers???

Edited by Flashbangwollap

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Corvus is a small constellation in the southern sky. Its name is Latin for raven or crow. Four principal stars form an asterism known as "the Spica's Spanker" or "the Sail".

Once the crow had beautiful silver or snowy white feathers and could speak to humans, but that all changed. As Apollo's sacred bird, the crow (or Raven) was told to watch over his pregnant love, Coronis. Coronis slowly lost interest in Apollo and was attracted to a mere mortal. The crow, who was secretly spying on her, reported her unfaithfulness to Apollo. In a rage of anger he unfairly turned the loyal raven's feathers black and took away its ability to speak. Coronis was killed by Apollo's twin sister Artemis. The child of Coronis and Apollo was rescued and raised. He then became known as Asclepius, the god of medicine and healing.

Another story is that when Apollo sent his raven to get some water in the god's cup (Crater), the raven waited for some figs to ripen and had a feast on them. He came back very late with a water snake (Hydra) and the water in the cup (Crater) he was sent for. The foolish raven blamed his tardiness on the water snake. Apollo was not tricked. He put the raven in the sky along with the water snake and the cup. Until this day, the snake keeps water from the eternally thirsty raven, yet the raven always sees the water, just out of reach.

The Greek figure of Corvus is modeled on the Babylonian Raven (MUL.UGA.MUSHEN), which was similarly placed sitting on the tail of the Serpent (Greek Hydra). The Babylonian constellation was sacred to Adad, the god of rain and storm; in the second Millennium it would have risen just before the start of the autumnal rainy season.

Another myth tells us that Corvus, the raven, was given a task by Apollo of keeping a watchful eye on Apollo’s pregnant lover Coronis (her name might relate to crow or crown, one of the Hyades in Taurus is named Coronis).

Klein supplies the Indian word kos, 'the distance within which a man's shout can be heard'. A corbel is a likely place for a crow to perch, a bracket projecting from the face of a wall and generally used to support a cornice or arch. Ravens are found at the top of the highest peaks.

In Norse mythology, the omniscient god Odin had a pair of ravens, Hugin (mind) and Munin (memory). They flew around the world every day to learn of the day's news and then returned to Odin [1]. They sat on each of the god Odin's shoulders (maybe on the coracoid bones), and informed him of everything that happens in the world.

The Corvinus Manilius refers to is Valerius Corvinus, a Roman politician. The story goes that he got the name 'Corvinus' when under attack by an enemy, a raven flew down from nowhere, perched upon Valerius's helmet, and began to attack his foe. A title, referring to this incident, for Corvus, was "Pomptina, from the victory of Valerius when aided by a raven on the Pontine Marsh"

The name Bran, raven, refers to gigantic Celtic god and ruler of Britain. After he was mortally wounded in battle his head was buried in London where it served as a protection against invaders. Some believe the still-current practice of keeping ravens at the Tower of London is associated with this story. Bran the archetypal British Celtic hero, has been surmised that he is the root of the character known as the Fisher King from Arthurian romance; Bran the Blessed.

The raven brought the cup (Crater, also representing the Holy Grail) to Apollo. "Boron also says that it was the Rich Fisher, named Bron, who was the brother-in-law of Joseph of Arimathea, and that it was he who brought the Grail to Britain". Hebrew Corban means a gift or votive offering for the god, also the name given to the Treasury of the Temple at Jerusalem. Corbenic (also Carbonek and Corbin) is the name of the castle of the Holy Grail in the Lancelot-Grail cycle and Thomas Malory's Le Morte d'Arthur. It is the domain of the Fisher King and the birth-place of Sir Galahad.

In view of its prophetic reputation, the Raven was said to be the sacred bird and messenger of Apollo, (the Roman god of prophecy), who cast favour upon it after the Sungod triumphantly assumed its shape during a contest of the gods. Manilius, even in referring to this nobler myth, implies an element of deception where he writes:

"Corvus, winner of spoils and a name, aided in combat by a bird which hides beneath a birds exterior the godhead of Phoebus".


FWB the stars move, I used to have my birthday in the middle of Taurus, now I'm at the front (Hyades). Originally this was later in the year.

The Zodiac originally began with the Virgo and ended with Leo, This is the last (Winged Victory) of the original 48 constellations.

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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Of course. Once again it's hard to stay focussed on a point but retain all the back-ground variables pertinent to everything overall.

Good bit of work there old chum.

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Added my Fathers Side, Need to add very Old Chieftain Crest. A Band of Gold on a Sea of Blue, with 1 martin (king's court muskeeter like vassals) in between 2 Lances. Need to add Dunvallo's and the Knight from Cornwall that sacrificed himself to let Arthur's family get away (I think, If I remember correctly)

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman

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Spartan's can never be suicide bombers!! grrr. They have a code of conduct.

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