Achaemenid Persians were Achaeans?

[Persia]

As for Spartans in any modern sense you'll be looking at elite troops within that particular countries army or whatever one supposes. As an extreme suicide bombers???

I love your sense of humor. but no! The courage of the soldiers of Sparta is just a myth. nothing more.

[KillCarneyKlansman]

Some More Trojan, Roman & Spartan Details ...

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13387-historical-evidences-of-the-bible/page__view__findpost__p__101843

[Flashbangwollap]

I love your sense of humor. but no! The courage of the soldiers of Sparta is just a myth. nothing more.

Well I'm glad you can see when I have my tongue in my cheek.

However on a serious note for a moment I have read reams about how the Spartans were trained for leaving babies on the hillside over night to their mothers parting wish on giving their son his (Sacred?) shield and you think a myth?

Can you give your reasons for that mate?

[Flashbangwollap]

Some More Trojan, Roman & Spartan Details ...

http://www.christian...post__p__101843

Hi Klansman. Sorry mate but your link is dropping me outside the site?

[Persia]

Well I'm glad you can see when I have my tongue in my cheek.

However on a serious note for a moment I have read reams about how the Spartans were trained for leaving babies on the hillside over night to their mothers parting wish on giving their son his (Sacred?) shield and you think a myth?

Can you give your reasons for that mate?

I also like stories and legends, it is very intresting readin' these things, today we know they're just stories and nothing more. who wrote these stories? The Greeks!

[Flashbangwollap]

I also like stories and legends, it is very intresting readin' these things, today we know they're just stories and nothing more. who wrote these stories? The Greeks!

Very true mate but perhaps we can take it up another day since I have three books open here plus keeping up with this site and checking out some of my own ideas.

[Persia]

Very true mate but perhaps we can take it up another day since I have three books open here plus keeping up with this site and checking out some of my own ideas.

We can talk about it and I love to learn new things:).

[Flashbangwollap]

We can talk about it and I love to learn new things:).

I also learn lots of new things, theories and so on. All we can do is keep plodding on. Catch you later.

[KillCarneyKlansman]

Bah, Ok, New Thread Here -> British Troy & Troyes Roman Era - Sub Ref Wilkins Troy & Achaeamenid Persia

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=201156

[KillCarneyKlansman]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_time_of_continuous_habitation

Damascus Levant Syria Chalcolithic

Damascus is often claimed to be the oldest continuously inhabited city in the world, and evidence of settlement in the wider Barada basin dating back to 9000 BC exists. However within the area of Damascus there is no evidence for large-scale settlement until the second millennium BC.

Jericho Levant West Bank Chalcolithic (3000 BC or earlier)

Traces of habitation from 9000 BC. Fortifications date to 6800 BC (or earlier), making Jericho the earliest known walled city. Archaeological evidence indicates that the city was destroyed and abandoned several times (sometimes remaining uninhabited for hundreds of years at a time), with later rebuilding and expansion.

Byblos Levant Lebanon Chalcolithic (5000 BC or earlier)

Settled from the Neolithic (carbon-dating tests have set the age of earliest settlement around 7000), a city since the 3rd millennium BC. Byblos had a reputation as the "oldest city in the world" in Antiquity (according to Philo of Byblos).

Sidon Levant Lebanon 4000 BC

There is evidence that Sidon was inhabited from as long ago as 4000 BC, and perhaps, as early as Neolithic times (6000-4000BC).

http://news.softpedia.com/news/World-039-s-Oldest-Cities-76446.shtml

Sumerians have an unknown origin. They reached Sumer around 3,500 BC. Physically, they resembled the Dravidian people of India (later, they got a mixed type with the Semites), but their advanced copper technology (the Sumerians processed the copper by casting it in clay molds, and Sumerian images present soldiers wearing copper axes, copper swords and spears with copper points) pointed to a relation to the tribes of northeastern Mesopotamia. They mixed with indigenous people and Semite people forming one of the most advanced civilizations of the antiquity.

Sumer, unlike more northern zones, never had a good agriculture soil. Rich crops were obtained only if the swamps were drained and the terrains irrigated. Excepting food, Sumer was devoid of resources, like timber and stones (too heavy to be transported in large amounts), that's why the buildings were made of adobe, dried at sun and burned in ovens. Taking into account how perishable this material is, it is a wonder that many of these crumbly structures survived.

Sumer contributed to the civilization with the first wheeled vehicles, potter's wheel, and especially writing. Starting with pictographs and ideograms, Sumerians developed the cuneiform writing, on slates of wet clay subsequently dried to keep the message. These slates preserved humanity's first literary texts, based on the myths and the legends of the Sumerians, 5,000 years ago. Writing appeared due as a trade necessity, enabling people to record goods' prices, benefits, or clients' name. Initially, each character reproduced an object, but later the signs encoded phonemes. 4,000 years old calendars, written on clay plates, were found at Uruk. The year started with the spring equinox, it was divided in months of 29 days or 30 days, and the week had 7 days.

[Note: Not like the Hebrew Day or Year, that began at the close of Dawn or culminated with the Feasts of Tabernacles]

With all That being said, the Great Cradle of Civilization, Mesopotamia was inhabited by Four general nations. Sumer to the South, Babylon situated in the Middle of the Tigris & Euphrates, Asher to the North, and Elam to the East. After the Demiurge the Sons of the Noah sons, migrated to all the compass points, establishing cities for themselves.

Troy, the first Troy, of Japheth and His sons though not basking in the splendid glory of their previous homeland or of Egypt, was rebuilt. This stategic environ held the keys as it were, to the sea, and the north from the great steppes of the east to the hinderlands of the west. Troy, though not given a promenient place, as that of Egypt or Babylon remains deeply set in our ancient memories, sung by bards of old. Nine Levels of Troy speak to us. Perched at the confluences of the Dardanelles, Troy maybe one of the most strategic sites ever built.

Whether this site is the actual site of the Trojan War is hottely debated, certainly there is evidence of other similar Troytowns, as it were. The enigmatic link between The Isles of the Blessed in the Far West to the vichey's of Asia Minor cannot be dismissed with the stroke of a pen.

Taken from the AV KJV Online Bible, eSword and Encarta © 1993-2003 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.

Genesis 10:1-5

Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth: and unto them were sons born after the flood.

The 7 sons of Japheth (aka Jupiter, Iapater or Zeus); are (from the Strong's 3315 [expansive] based on 6601 [persuade]){3rd son of Noah whose descendants settled on the coastal lands of the Mediterranean spreading north [then east and west])

Gomer 01586 from 01584 (complete) {progenitor of the early Cimmerians and the Celtic family - Celts, Gauls and Illyrii}

Magog 04031 from 01463 (mountainous land of Gog) {People of the mountainous region between Cappadocia and Media}

Madai 04074 (Middle Land) {northwest of Persia, south-southwest of the Caspian, east of Armenia and Assyria}

Javan 03120 from 03196 (effervescent winebibbers) {Greece proper, Ionians, not to be confused with Aelions or Dorians}

Tubal 08422 (to bring forth) {east Asia Minor near to Cappadocia; Tiber, Tobruk, Tobol'sk, Tubal-Cain, Toba tek Singh}

Meshech 4902 (to draw out) {connected with Tubal, Magog, and the Moschi, a people on the borders of Colchis and Armenia}

Tiras 8494 (desire(d)) {connected with the Thracians, Troy or Illion, and possibly Tyre, the Nordic Thor, Taurus's}

And the 3 sons of Gomer; (the 1st born) are

Ashkenaz 0813 (a man as sprinkled: fire as scattered) {Bithynia, Pontus, Sacagena-Armenia. Ascanitici, the Don [Tanais]}

Riphath 7384 (spoken) {Diyphath, Didymus-Miletus?, Paphlagonians, which were anciently called Riphataei, Pontus}

Togarmah 08425 (thou wilt break her) {the area known as Armenia, Turks, Tigrah-Petah Tiqwah, Tikamgarh?, Tobarra?}

And the 4 sons of Javan; (the 4th born) are

Elishah 0473 (God of the coming one) {Aeolia, Elis, Thessaly, Boeotia, Arcado-Cyprian, Lesbos, Lydia, Isole Eolie}

Tarshish 8659 from 8658 (yellow jasper) {Cilicia, Cyprus, Tartessus Spain, various points south & east of the red sea}

Kittim 3794 (bruisers) {islanders of the Mediterranean, Cyprus, Hatti, Syrio-Hittie, Chios, Romans, Macedonians}

Dodanim 1721 (leaders) {also Rodanim [Rhodes] [connected to Helios], Dodana [Epirus], Rhone Valley-South France}

By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations.

This was before British Troy & Troyes Roman Era Sub Ref Wilkins Troy & Achaeamenid Persia

STRONG DEFINITIONS ON TRIBES

http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13387-historical-evidences-of-the-bible/page__pid__101916#entry101916

Reboot Achaeamenid Please!

Edited February 24, 2011 by KillCarneyKlansman

[KillCarneyKlansman]

King Darius says: This is what I have done. By the grace of Ahuramazda have I always acted. After I became king, I fought nineteen battles in a single year and by the grace of Ahuramazda I overthrew nine kings.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_kings_of_Persia

Humban-Tahrid (Neo-Elamite) dynasty, c. 830– c. 640 BC

The unnamed king of Elam king of Anshan & Susa ?-? before c. 821 BC after c. 821 BC ? cont. Shamshi-Adad V king of Assyria

Shutur-Nahhunte III king of Anshan & Susa ? - ? after autumn 646 BC ? son of Indattu-Inshushinak IV After him, kingdom of Anshan transferred to Achaemenids

First Median dynasty, 674–652 BC

Xšaθrita Phraortes (?) ? - 652 BC 674 BC 652 BC son of Deioces Killed in battle with Assyrians and Scythians. Domination of Scythian kingdom 652–625 BC

Scythian kingdom, 652–625 BC

Madea ? - 625 BC 652 BC 625 BC son of Partatua king of Scythian kingdom from c. 658/9 BC

Second Median dynasty, 625–550 BC

Cyaxares Huvaxšaθra ? - 585 BC 625 BC 585 BC son of Xšaθrita

Astyages Ishtuvigu ? - 585 BC 585 BC 550 BC son of Cyaxares Deposed and later killed

Cyrus the Great King of Persia, King of Anshan, King of Media, King of Babylon, King of Sumer and Akkad, King of the four corners of the World 600 BC - 530 BC 559 BC 530 BC Son of Cambyses I or (II) king of Anshan and Mandana daughter of Ishtuvigu, Killed in battle.

Cambyses Khshayathiya Khshayathiyanam, King of Kings ? - 521 BC 530 BC 522 BC Son of Cyrus the Great Killed (?)

Bardiya Tanyoxarces Great King of Persia, Pharaoh of Egypt ? - 522 BC 522 BC 522 BC Son of Cyrus the Great Killed by Persian aristocrats

Darius I Arsames (?) Khshayathiya Khshayathiyanam, King of Kings 550 BC - 486 BC 522 BC 486 BC Son of Hystaspes son of Arsames son of Ariaramnes son of Teispes (II)

Xerxes I Khshayathiya Khshayathiyanam, King of Kings 519 BC - 465 BC 485 BC 465 BC Son of Darius I Killed

Artaxerxes I Khshayathiya Khshayathiyanam, King of Kings, Longimanus ? - 424 BC 465 BC 424 BC Son of Xerxes I

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bardiya

Bardiya (Greek: Smerdis) (Old Persian: Bardiya) (possibly died 522 BCE) was a son of Cyrus the Great and the younger brother of Cambyses II, both Persian kings. There are sharply divided views on his life, he may have ruled the Achaemenid Empire for a few months in 522 BCE, or he may have been impersonated by a magus called Gaumata.

The traditional view based on the majority of ancient sources e.g. Darius the Great's Behistun inscription, as well as Herodotus, Justin, and Ctesias, although there are minor differences between them. Bardiya was the younger son of Cyrus the Great and (full or half) brother of Cambyses II. According to Ctesias, on his deathbed Cyrus appointed Bardiya as satrap (governor) of some of the far-eastern provinces.

Bardiya's death was not known to the people, and so in the spring of 522 BCE a usurper pretended to be him and proclaimed himself king on a mountain near the Persian town of Paishiyauvada. Darius claimed that the real name of the usurper was Gaumata, a Magian priest from Media; this name has been preserved by Justin i. 9 (from Charon of Lampsacus?) but given to his brother Cambyses (called Patizeithes by Herodotus) who is said to have been the real promoter of the intrigue. According to Herodotus, the name of the Magian usurper was Oropastes, but according to Ctesias it was Sphendadates.

The despotic rule of Cambyses, coupled with his long absence in Egypt, contributed to the fact that "the whole people, Persians, Medes and all the other nations," acknowledged the usurper, especially as he granted a remission of taxes for three years.

Cambyses began to march against him, but died in the spring of 522 BCE in disputed circumstances. Before his death he confessed to the murder of his brother, and publicly explained the whole fraud, but this was not generally believed. Nobody had the courage to oppose the new king, who ruled for seven months over the whole empire. The new king transferred the seat of government to Media.

A number of Persian nobles discovered that their new ruler was an impostor, and a group of seven nobles formed a plot to kill him. They surprised him at a castle in Nisa, home of the Nisean horses, and stabbed him to death in September 522 BCE. One of the seven, Darius, was proclaimed as ruler shortly after.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Pre-Achaemenid_kingdoms_of_Iran

Achaemenid Kings of Anshan, c.635-550 BC

Teispes of Anshan, or Teispes (II) son of Achaemenes or Cyrus (I), king of Persia, king of Anshan, c.635- c.610 BC

Cyrus I of Anshan or Cyrus (II), son of Teispes (II), king of Anshan c.610- c.585 BC

Cambyses I of Anshan or Cambyses (II), his son, king of Anshan c.585–559 BC

Cyrus II the Great or Cyrus (III), his son, king of Anshan 559–529. He conquered the Median Empire in 550 and established the Persian Empire.

Line of Ariaramnes

Ariaramnes of Persia, son of Teispes (II), king of Persia. His reign is doubtful.

Arsames of Persia, son of Ariaramnes, king of Persia until 550, died after 520. His reign is doubtful.

His son Hystaspes was Satrap of Parthia under Cambyses II, Smerdis and his son Darius.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rulers_of_Parthian_sub-kingdoms

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behistun_Inscription

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Full_translation_of_the_Behistun_Inscription

(Line 3) King Darius says: That is why we are called Achaemenids; from antiquity we have been noble; from antiquity has our dynasty been royal.

(Line 4) King Darius says: Eight of my dynasty were kings before me; I am the ninth. Nine in succession we have been kings.

(Line 5) King Darius says: By the grace of Ahuramazda am I king; Ahuramazda has granted me the kingdom.

(Line 6) King Darius says: These are the countries which are subject unto me, and by the grace of Ahuramazda I became king of them: Persia [Pârsa], Elam [Ûvja], Babylonia [bâbiruš], Assyria [Athurâ], Arabia [Arabâya], Egypt [Mudrâya], the countries by the Sea, Lydia [sparda], the Greeks [Yauna], Media [Mâda], Armenia [Armina], Cappadocia [Katpatuka], Parthia [Parthava], Drangiana [Zraka], Aria [Haraiva], Chorasmia [uvârazmîy], Bactria [bâxtriš], Sogdia [suguda], Gandara [Gadâra], Scythia [saka] (Ghi-mi-ri or Cimmeria in Babylonian version), Sattagydia [Thataguš], Arachosia [Harauvatiš] and Maka [Maka]; twenty-three lands in all.

(Line 10) King Darius says: The following is what was done by me after I became king. A son of Cyrus [Kûruš], named Cambyses [Kabûjiya], one of our dynasty, was king here before me. That Cambyses had a brother, Smerdis [bardiya] by name, of the same mother and the same father as Cambyses. Afterwards, Cambyses slew this Smerdis. When Cambyses slew Smerdis, it was not known unto the people that Smerdis was slain. Thereupon Cambyses went to Egypt. When Cambyses had departed into Egypt, the people became hostile, and the lie multiplied in the land, even in Persia and Media, and in the other provinces.

(Line 11) King Darius says: Afterwards, there was a certain man, a Magian [maguš], Gaumâta by name, who raised a rebellion in Paishiyauvada, in a mountain called Arakadriš. On the fourteenth day of the month Viyaxana (11 March 522 BC) did he rebel. He lied to the people, saying: 'I am Smerdis, the son of Cyrus, the brother of Cambyses.' Then were all the people in revolt, and from Cambyses they went over unto him, both Persia and Media, and the other provinces. He seized the kingdom; on the ninth day of the month Garmapada (1 July 522 BC) he seized the kingdom. Afterwards, Cambyses died of natural causes.

(Line 12) King Darius says: The kingdom of which Gaumâta, the Magian, dispossessed Cambyses, had always belonged to our dynasty. After that Gaumâta, the Magian, had dispossessed Cambyses of Persia and Media, and of the other provinces, he did according to his will. He became king.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magian

Pervasive throughout the Eastern Mediterranean and Western Asia until late antiquity and beyond, Greek mágos "magian"/Magician was influenced by (and eventually displaced) Greek goēs(γόης), the older word for a practitioner of magic, to include astrology, alchemy and other forms of esoteric knowledge. This association was in turn the product of the Hellenistic fascination for (Pseudo-)Zoroaster, who was perceived by the Greeks to be the "Chaldean" "founder" of the Magi and "inventor" of both astrology and magic. Among the skeptical thinkers of the period, the term 'magian' acquired a negative connotation and was associated with tricksters and conjurers. This pejorative meaning survives in the words "magic" and "magician".

In English, the term "magi" is most commonly used in reference to the Gospel of Matthew's "wise men from the East."

Avestan 'magâunô', i.e. the religious caste of the Medes in which Zoroaster was born into, (see Yasna 33.7:' so I can be heard beyond Magi '), seems to be the origin of the term.

The term only appears twice in Iranian texts from before the 4th century BC, and only one of these can be dated with precision. This one instance occurs in the trilingual Behistun inscription of Darius I, and which can be dated to about 520 BC. In this trilingual text, certain rebels have 'magian' as an attribute; in the Old Persian portion as maγu- (generally assumed to be a loan word from Median). The meaning of the term in this context is uncertain.

The other instance appears in the texts of the Avesta, i.e. in the sacred literature of Zoroastrianism. In this instance, which is in the Younger Avestan portion, the term appears in the hapax moghu.tbiš, meaning "hostile to the moghu", where moghu does not (as was previously thought) mean "magus", but rather "a member of the tribe" or referred to a particular social class in the proto-Iranian language and then continued to do so in Avestan.

An unrelated term, but previously assumed to be related, appears in the older Gathic Avestan language texts. This word, adjectival magavan meaning "possessing maga-", was once the premise that Avestan maga- and Median (i.e. Old Persian) magu- were co-eval (and also that both these were cognates of Vedic Sanskrit magha-). While "in the Gathas the word seems to mean both the teaching of Zoroaster and the community that accepted that teaching," and it seems that Avestan maga- is related to Sanskrit magha-, "there is no reason to suppose that the western Iranian form magu (Magus) has exactly the same meaning" as well.

But it "may be, however," that Avestan moghu (which is not the same as Avestan maga-) "and Medean magu were the same word in origin, a common Iranian term for 'member of the tribe' having developed among the Medes the special sense of 'member of the (priestly) tribe', hence a priest."

Victor H. Mair provides archaeological and linguistic evidence suggesting that Chinese wū ("shaman; witch, wizard; magician", Old Chinese *myag) was a loanword from Old Persian *maguš "magician; magi". He describes:

The recent discovery at an early Chou site of two figurines with unmistakably Caucasoid or Europoid feature is startling prima facie evidence of East-West interaction during the first half of the first millennium Before the Current Era. It is especially interesting that one of the figurines bears on the top of his head the clearly incised graph ☩ which identifies him as a wu (< *myag).

Mair connects the ancient Bronzeware script for wu "shaman" (a cross with potents) with a Western heraldic symbol of magicians, the cross potent, which "can hardly be attributable to sheer coincidence or chance independent origination."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aria_(satrapy)

Aria was an Old Persian satrapy, which enclosed chiefly the valley of the Hari River (Greek, this being eponymous to the whole land according to Arrian) and which in antiquity was considered as particularly fertile and, above all, rich in wine. It is described in a very detailed manner by Ptolemy and Strabo and corresponds, according to that, almost to the Herat Province of today's Afghanistan. In this sense the term is used correctly by some writers, e.g. Herodotus (3.93.3, where the Areioi are mentioned together with the Parthians, Chorasmians, and Sogdians); Diodorus, Pomponius Mela (1.12, where we read that “nearest to India is Ariane, then Aria”)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ariana

Ariana, the Latinized form of (Greek: Arianē), inhabitants: Ariani (Greek: Arianoi), was a region of the countries between ancient India and ancient Persia, including the whole of the present-day Afghanistan (Bactria, Aria, Drangiana, north Arachosia, and the Paropamisadae), east and southeast Iran (Carmania and western Gedrosia), most of Tajikistan (Sogdiana), south Turkmenistan (Margiana), south Uzbekistan (Parts of Sogdiana) and west and north Pakistan (South Arachosia, east Gedrosia and east of the Paropamisadae). At various times, the region was in possession of the Indians, the Macedonians, and Persians. Its exact limits are laid down with little accuracy in classical sources, and it seems to have been often confused (as in Pliny, Naturalis Historia, book vi, page 23) with the small province of Aria.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shakya

Shakya (Sanskrit:Śākya, Devanagari: and Pāli:Sākya) was an ancient janapada (realm) of South Asia in the 1st millennium BCE. In Buddhist texts, the Śākyas are mentioned as a Kshatriya clan of Gotama gotra. The Śākyas formed an independent kingdom at the foothills of the Himālayas.

The most famous Śākya was Gautama Buddha, a member of the ruling Gautama (Pāli: Gotama) clan of Lumbini, who is also known as Shakyamuni Buddha (Sanskrit: Śākyamuni), "sage of the Śākyas").

Suddhodana had two queens, Maya and Prajapati, both daughters of Anjana. Siddhattha (Gautama Buddha) was the son of Suddhodana and Maya. Rahula was the son of Siddhatta and Bhaddakaccana, daughter of Suppabuddha and granddaughter of Anjana.

http://www.vridhamma.org/Why-Sakyan-Republic-Destroyed.aspx

The Sakyans and the Koliyans were both khattiyas of the Ādicca (Ikśvāku) clan of the solar dynasty. There was no other royal khattiya family equal to them in the region, and therefore, members of the royal families of these two republics married only among themselves. Both clans were very proud of the purity of their royal blood and had practised this tradition of inter-marriage since ancient times.

In spite of such close blood-ties, there would be occasional rifts between the two royal families, which sometimes turned into open hostility. The traditional occupation of both clans was agriculture. The lowlands of the Tarāī province at the foothills of the mighty Himalayas were very fertile.

The quarrel reached the Sakyan and Koliyan ministers, and then the princes and the kings. When the youthful princes on both sides heard the description of the abuses against their ancestors, they flew into a rage and vowed to avenge the insults to their ancestors. Inflamed with anger, they gathered on their respective riverbanks, fully armed, and challenged the other side to fight. The situation was grim and the possibility of bloodshed seemed imminent.

When the Buddha learned about this outbreak of hostility, he came there himself. On seeing this revered and eminent person from their royal clan, the warriors of both sides became deeply embarrassed. All of them laid down their weapons.

If the Sakyans and Koliyans fought against each other, both would be destroyed. If they were united, both would be strengthened by their combined might. The ruler of Kosala would not be able to stretch them further on the rack of his supremacy. However if they remained united, it is quite possible that they may even be able to free themselves completely from the dominance of Kosala. Keeping this in mind, the Buddha gave them the teaching on the benefits of maintaining unity.

King Pasenadi of Kosala, the overlord of the Sakyans, was a khattiya. But the Sakyans of the Ādicca clan of the solar dynasty were considered to be of a higher caste. Thinking thus, King Pasenadi sent an ultimatum to the Sakyan princes demanding the hand of a Sakyan princess in marriage. This ultimatum caused uproar among the Sakyans. King Pasenadi was the monarch of their republic and a mighty warrior. If the Sakyans rejected his demand, he would be furious. His empire was vast with a powerful army. If he attacked them, the Sakyans would be routed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_monarchs

Foreign Emperors in North-Western India (c. 538 BC - 750 AD) Persian Achaemenid Dynasty (c. 538-330 BC) These empires were vast, centered in Persia or the Mediterranean; their satrapies (provinces) in India were at their outskirts.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Indian_monarchs#Shakya_Dynasty_(c._650-500_BC)

Shakya Dynasty (c. 650-500 BC)

Sinahana

Suddhodana Gautama (c. 600-500 BC), king of the Shakyas, father of Siddhartha Gautama (Buddha)

Maya (c. 600-500 BC), queen of the Shakyas, wife and cousin of Suddhodana, mother of Siddhartha

Suprahuddha (c. 600-500 BC), lord of Devadaha Castle, brother of Maya, father of princess Yashodhara (wife of Buddha)

Nanda Dynasty (424-321 BC)

Maurya Dynasty (324-184 BC)

Chandragupta Maurya (Sandrakottos) (324-301 BC), founded the Mauryan Empire after defeating both the Nanda Empire and the Macedonian Seleucid Empire, claimed descent from Shakya dynasty.

http://o3.indiatimes.com/gotama_zoroaster/archive/2008/12/06/4951407.aspx

That Saman was a name of Gotama is well known. Saman corresponds to Haman in the Book of Esther. The eminent scholar on Judaism R. de Vaux hinted that Haman episode was linked to Achaemenian history. In an inscription of Kartir, the Buddhists are called Saman. Al-beruni also describes the Buddhists as Shamaniyas. That Darius-I did not kill Gaumata is clear from the tablets. [Note: Or Imposter?]

Even a rudimentary knowledge of Indian religion shows that Raman and Vayu are Rama and Hanuman, son of Vayu. Rama was an ancestor of both Darius-I and Gotama. At one level, 'datta' in Sanskrit and 'data' in Persian does have the sense 'given', and her interpretation, 'given by the Creator', is echoed mindlessly in the academic circles, yet due to her narrow interpretation of Persian religion, Boyce glosses over Rama, a very crucial name of Persian and Indian history and ignores that 'dat' in Persian also meant 'law'. Damidatta is clearly an Elamite rendering of Devadatta, a name of Zoroaster in the Buddhist texts. In the Indian texts Devadatta was the son of Suprabuddha and a cousin of Gotama. Suprabuddha, father of Zoroaster, was probably dead when the tablets were written, but there are about eight references to Supra in the tablets who may be a close relative of Zoroaster. Gopa, (also known as Bhaddakacchana) the wife of Gotama, was the daughter of Suprabuddha. Zoroaster's wife was Hvôvi. In some texts Ananda, the close associate of Gotama, is a brother of Devadatta.

Anyways Zoraster falls in here somewhere also, various Achaeamenid kings and Scythian nobles defended the rite of Israel to return and rebuild Jerusalem, and stop those who would oppose the coming of the Messiah to the 2nd Temple.

This is the last for a bit. That is most of the greater details, except fot the Steppes, Baltic, Germanic, Nordic Lines.

Edited February 24, 2011 by KillCarneyKlansman

[dude00720]

Looks like this thread is dead. But, let me add a twist to this.

The lingusitic relationship between Acheans and achaemenids is very obvious. Let me add some more. The First Great Achaemenid emporer was known as Cyrus. Not Cyrus is the Latin version of the Green/Persian Name Khurus.

Do some more analysis , and you will find that, the in The Mahabharat epic, in Hindu Mythology, The first great war was between two cousions who actually belonged to the Kuru Clan.

This does show quite a few connections.

Let us look at timelines.

Mahabharata is controversial, but, most latest is shown to be around 1100 BC. I personally disagree since, I consider it older. But, that is another thread.

Trojan War is considered between 1050-1150 BC, Between whom - Aacheans and Trojans[who were allies of Hittities]

So, who were the Hittities . They used sanskrit in some of their inscriptions.along with their subjects like Mittanis.

Take this forward and we have The persian wars just becoming an extention of the Trojan War. Just that Geography becomes irrelevant. Hell, No has identified Memnon from Trojan side, while Aga-Memnon was definitly Myceanean. Is this coincidence or what?

Would love a discussion on this?

There's actually more, where it says, Rigveda, one of the tribes were known as Parsus or shall we say, Persians? We're closer than we think.

[jaylemurph]

The lingusitic relationship between Acheans and achaemenids is very obvious. Let me add some more.

It may be obvious to you, but it's a fact that's remained not at all obvious to trained linguists and historians.

--Jaylemurph

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Dude, as much as I admire your enthusiasm, your argument amounts to "George Washington and King George were the same person because they were both called 'George'"

[kmt_sesh]

Looks like this thread is dead. But, let me add a twist to this.

The lingusitic relationship between Acheans and achaemenids is very obvious. Let me add some more. The First Great Achaemenid emporer was known as Cyrus. Not Cyrus is the Latin version of the Green/Persian Name Khurus.

Do some more analysis , and you will find that, the in The Mahabharat epic, in Hindu Mythology, The first great war was between two cousions who actually belonged to the Kuru Clan.

This does show quite a few connections.

Let us look at timelines.

Mahabharata is controversial, but, most latest is shown to be around 1100 BC. I personally disagree since, I consider it older. But, that is another thread.

Trojan War is considered between 1050-1150 BC, Between whom - Aacheans and Trojans[who were allies of Hittities]

So, who were the Hittities . They used sanskrit in some of their inscriptions.along with their subjects like Mittanis.

Take this forward and we have The persian wars just becoming an extention of the Trojan War. Just that Geography becomes irrelevant. Hell, No has identified Memnon from Trojan side, while Aga-Memnon was definitly Myceanean. Is this coincidence or what?

Would love a discussion on this?

There's actually more, where it says, Rigveda, one of the tribes were known as Parsus or shall we say, Persians? We're closer than we think.

Greetings, dude00720.

I personally don;'t see much relevance between Greek and Persian history and ancient Indian history (maybe some crossover between eastern Central Asia and India, but that would've been the farthest backwater region of the Persian empire). Some other things might be important to point out, however.

• Linguistically speaking the only relationship between ancient Greek and Old Persian is their shared Indo-European origin, but that's not saying much. Linguistically and culturally these were two utterly different peoples.
  
• Troy (Wilusa), as part of the Troad region and western Anatolia, was connected to the Hittites as a vassal state but was hardly friendly with the Hittites. On at least two occasions the Troad and other western Anatolian kingdoms rebelled against the Hittites, and failed.
  
• It is highly likely, in fact, that the people the Hittites identified as the Ahhiyawa were the Achaeans of Homeric lore, and by all accounts the Ahhiyawa were much involved with the western Anatolian revolts against Hatti.
  
• The Hittites never wrote in sanskrit. Their principal scripts were cuneiform and hieroglyphs. I believe the Mittani also used cuneiform.
  
• The Trojan War (whatever it may have actually been) is conventionally dated to around 1200 BCE; your later date of 1150 BCE would be acceptable, then (but not 1050 BCE). The Persian Wars, however, came centuries later. Fixing them can be debated but a reliable origin by which to go is the Persian invasion of Greece at Marathon in 490 BCE. Therefore, these events are separated by more than 700 years. The Persian Wars, then, cannot realistically be considered an extension of the Trojan War.
  

[back to earth]

Oh dang! I got sucked in without checking the dates ... I hate that !

Edited January 30, 2015 by back to earth

[back to earth]

ditto

Edited January 30, 2015 by back to earth

[kmt_sesh]

Oh dang! I got sucked in without checking the dates ... I hate that !

Ha! Dragged you into it, eh? Don't you love necroposting?

[sards]

A symbol that appears frequently in Christian art and in the arms of the Popes, the crossed keys were formerly an emblem of the Roman God Janis and the Mithraic Zurvan, both gods of time and keepers of doorways, and removers of obstacles. It is this symbolism that led to the folk legend of Peter as the bureaucratic keeper of the &ldquo;pearly gates.

Interesting.

It seems that being in control of or understanding time and the heavens almost guaranteed you a following. It would make sense for any ruling party to invest in these and have their people become dependant on them for the seasons.

[jaylemurph]

A symbol that appears frequently in Christian art and in the arms of the Popes, the crossed keys were formerly an emblem of the Roman God Janis and the Mithraic Zurvan, both gods of time and keepers of doorways, and removers of obstacles.

Here I was thinking Janis was a second-string muppet, the singer of Electric Mayhem, but she turns out to be a Deus Romanus. Hunh. I wonder if she's related to Janus?

ALTERNATE POST:

I always wondered what god Leela's people worshipped after the Doctor did in Xoanon. Janis, goddess of thorns, make sense.

--Jaylemurph

[dude00720]

Greetings, dude00720.

I personally don;'t see much relevance between Greek and Persian history and ancient Indian history (maybe some crossover between eastern Central Asia and India, but that would've been the farthest backwater region of the Persian empire). Some other things might be important to point out, however.

• Linguistically speaking the only relationship between ancient Greek and Old Persian is their shared Indo-European origin, but that's not saying much. Linguistically and culturally these were two utterly different peoples.
  
• Troy (Wilusa), as part of the Troad region and western Anatolia, was connected to the Hittites as a vassal state but was hardly friendly with the Hittites. On at least two occasions the Troad and other western Anatolian kingdoms rebelled against the Hittites, and failed.
  
• It is highly likely, in fact, that the people the Hittites identified as the Ahhiyawa were the Achaeans of Homeric lore, and by all accounts the Ahhiyawa were much involved with the western Anatolian revolts against Hatti.
  
• The Hittites never wrote in sanskrit. Their principal scripts were cuneiform and hieroglyphs. I believe the Mittani also used cuneiform.
  
• The Trojan War (whatever it may have actually been) is conventionally dated to around 1200 BCE; your later date of 1150 BCE would be acceptable, then (but not 1050 BCE). The Persian Wars, however, came centuries later. Fixing them can be debated but a reliable origin by which to go is the Persian invasion of Greece at Marathon in 490 BCE. Therefore, these events are separated by more than 700 years. The Persian Wars, then, cannot realistically be considered an extension of the Trojan War.
  

Thanks for the one sane reply. Let me make an effort to clear a few things. The theory I have is that, people migrate across centuries in different directions.

Your point about Wilusa[Troy]. Yes, it was a Vassal state of the Hittites. Unfortunately, we dont have writings to know their script. But, it would be a fair assumption,that they played the role of a client state between two powerfull empires. The Hittities in the East and the Mycaneans in the west[across the aegean sea]. Yes, their relationship was complex, but, it makes sense for the Hittities to send troops to ensure, that Myceneans dont get a foothold on what they consider their own land and more importantly an important port. According the Homer, the Trojans lost. Maybe, that is why, The Hittites did not want to record their defeat.

About Cuneiform , here is the thing. -: That one is a script. But, Cuneiform has been used since, Sumerian time frames to write multiple languages. So, it is not impossible to think, that, One can write sanskrit using cuneiform. In India, we write sanskrit in so many different scripts like devanagari, english and many more. We tend to confuse a script with a language. For ex. Most european languages are written in Cyrilic script.

About Mittanis using cuneiform, here is the link. This one is a treaty between Hittites and Mittanis -

http://www.heritageinstitute.com/zoroastrianism/ranghaya/suppiluliuma_shattiwaza_treaty.htm

It contains numerous rigvedic deity references.

I can provide more info, but, this much is worth a debate.

[jaylemurph]

Your point about Wilusa[Troy]. Yes, it was a Vassal state of the Hittites. Unfortunately, we dont have writings to know their script.

Your statement here is vague. If by "their script" you mean Hittites, then yes, we have samples of their language and script. If you mean the language of Wilusa, Luvian, then yes, we have samples of their language and their script (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luwian_language). If you mean "samples of writing to prove Troy was Wilusa, then we also have reasonably compelling evidence for that, as well, as Kemet astutely points out (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wilusa).

About Cuneiform , here is the thing. -: That one is a script. But, Cuneiform has been used since, Sumerian time frames to write multiple languages. So, it is not impossible to think, that, One can write sanskrit using cuneiform.

It's not impossible to think, but there's not an iota of extant prove that's anything more than the most errant of speculation.

In India, we write sanskrit in so many different scripts like devanagari, english and many more. We tend to confuse a script with a language. For ex. Most european languages are written in Cyrilic script.

Well, no. Certainly /some/ langauges, specifically Slavic ones, do -- Bulgarian, Russian, Ukranian -- but not even all of them use the Cyrillic alphabet. Both a larger number of languages and a larger number of speakers of those languages use the Latin alphabet.

I can provide more info, but, this much is worth a debate.

It might be, but debate is usually worth a little more when you have a firm grasp on the disciplines you're attempting to use. People who fundamentally mistake the most common script in Europe call into question their mastery of linguistics.

--Jaylemurph

[dude00720]

It might be, but debate is usually worth a little more when you have a firm grasp on the disciplines you're attempting to use. People who fundamentally mistake the most common script in Europe call into question their mastery of linguistics.

--Jaylemurph

Well forums are for knowledge and theories. You obviously, are here to vent out. That's perfectly ok. You're allowed an opinion. There are Other forums. I never thought, there will rednecks here.

[jaylemurph]

Well forums are for knowledge and theories. You obviously, are here to vent out. That's perfectly ok. You're allowed an opinion. There are Other forums. I never thought, there will rednecks here.

So is your working definition of redneck "anyone who disagrees with me" or just "anyone who disagrees with me and is able to show I don't know what I'm talking about"? It's not entirely clear.

--Jaylemurph

[kmt_sesh]

Thanks for the one sane reply. Let me make an effort to clear a few things. The theory I have is that, people migrate across centuries in different directions.

Your point about Wilusa[Troy]. Yes, it was a Vassal state of the Hittites. Unfortunately, we dont have writings to know their script. But, it would be a fair assumption,that they played the role of a client state between two powerfull empires. The Hittities in the East and the Mycaneans in the west[across the aegean sea]. Yes, their relationship was complex, but, it makes sense for the Hittities to send troops to ensure, that Myceneans dont get a foothold on what they consider their own land and more importantly an important port. According the Homer, the Trojans lost. Maybe, that is why, The Hittites did not want to record their defeat.]

Greetings. Homer's version of events is one thing, and they're mytho-literary, not actual history. Extant evidence demonstrates the Hittites successfully put down both rebellions stemming from the Troad, and executed numerous rebel leaders after the second revolt. The Hittites maintained a shaky control of western Anatolia until their collapse (including subsequent invasions of Cyprus).

About Cuneiform , here is the thing. -: That one is a script. But, Cuneiform has been used since, Sumerian time frames to write multiple languages. So, it is not impossible to think, that, One can write sanskrit using cuneiform. In India, we write sanskrit in so many different scripts like devanagari, english and many more. We tend to confuse a script with a language. For ex. Most european languages are written in Cyrilic script.

About Mittanis using cuneiform, here is the link. This one is a treaty between Hittites and Mittanis -

I'm familiar with cuneiform and the languages it represents. My familiarity with Sanskrit is much more rudimentary, but then again my research of the ancient Near East doesn't usually take me to Indic history (aside from interactions with Alexander and his successors, much later on). While it's generally argued that the Mitanni included some important Indic influences, all extant Mitannian cuneiform writings are in the Hurrian language. Hittite writings, in their various scripts, are in their own Indo-European Hittite language or Luwian. I'm not familiar with Sanskrit examples from either of these cultures.

Jaylemurph already commented on modern European langauges so I needn't pound on that.