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Who Wrecked the Balkans


Persia

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  • Big Bad Voodoo

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  • Helen of Annoy

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  • Spark Plug

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@Odas

WHAT? Bogumils talked Bosnian? :wacko::rofl:

Wait a minute. Do you know when Bosnian language is first mentioned? How come that in SFRJ in Sarajevo kids didnt learned Bosnian? They learned Serbian-Croatian?

Second, it is sad that you dont know your own history since you mixed up centuries. Do you know when is start use term Bosnian?

Sorry to be one to tell you:

There is no slavic tribe Bosniaks.

There were no Bosnian language in time Bougmils lived. Only Croatian and Serbian. Dialect is something differnet.

And real historian will tell you truth (same as I did) no matter is he black, jew ,serb, croat, woman or whatever.

There is no your falut. You are Bosnian. But Bosnian nation is much younger then Croatian and Serbian.

Its like USA. Imagine some crazy American being angry if I say that English is older then USA. Thats how you act.

...jews, orthodoxy....Yes it will be that way. But it was not that way always as you said it.

Sorry Odas, you just need to learn and read a lot about your own history.

And to called me nationalist is cruel. Tell me one reason why you called me that way?

One TINY reason an I will shut up.

Please read my previous posts. Its all truth. And truth can be painfull if you was learned different.

But it is truth. It is our history. Yours and mine.

Edited by the L
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When you are calm down and if you wanted to continue to talk be my guest. But first answer some of these questions from last 2 pages.

Its not how I think it would end. :hmm:

Edited by the L
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Also do you know that in Croatia live Bosniaks minority.

Imagine that we say they are not Bosniaks they are Croatian muslim. :tu:

Fact is that they are Bosniaks.

Same in Bosnia.

There are Croats in BiH. They are not just Bosnians chatolics.

I always hate when someone cant look truth in the eye and skip facts and questions.

When water dont go on your mill-RUN. :w00t:

Odas,odas :no:

Edited by the L
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Also do you know that in Croatia live Bosniaks minority.

Imagine that we say they are not Bosniaks they are Croatian muslim. :tu:

Fact is that they are Bosniaks.

Same in Bosnia.

There are Croats in BiH. They are not just Bosnians chatolics.

I always hate when someone cant look truth in the eye and skip facts and questions.

When water dont go on your mill-RUN. :w00t:

Odas,odas :no:

About the bosnian language, well ask Tito why.

It is not the first time bosnians got stabbed in the back. One more lesson I have learnd.

Your "truth" cost many bosnians their lifes. No more. Never again. Btw. how do real Croatians in Croatia call the "croats" from Bosnia? Bosnians.

Do you realy think that I would sit back and let someone talk trash about Bosnia? Bosnia is a thousand year old state and no fake history can change it.

It is better we end our friendship now. I wish you good luck and all the best in future.

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Btw. how do real Croatians in Croatia call the "croats" from Bosnia? Bosnians.

Do you realy think that I would sit back and let someone talk trash about Bosnia? Bosnia is a thousand year old state and no fake history can change it.

It is better we end our friendship now. I wish you good luck and all the best in future.

If you negates that Croats lived in Bosnia you are nationlist. Not I.

btw real Croats will called them Croats. facepalm

Where did you heard anyone talk trash about Bosnia in whole thread?

If I heard someone say something wrong about it I would be first to step foward and argue.

Bosnia is old state and no fake history can change it. So Odas learn real history that you can argue with people when someone mention Bosnia.

We can end this in friendship ofcourse Im just sad that you skiped so many questions and my good answer blindly defending altenative and speculative hitstory of yours.

Odas. Learn.

EDIT: to put facepalm.

Edited by the L
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Helen,

My roots are from Bosnia. I didnt look only in Croatian books. Ask any historian: Pacta conventa, Arpadovići is main reason why Bosnia become separate kingdom from Croatia. Before that it was always part of Croatia.

Bosniaks origin is mainly- Croats then Serbs. You dont need to be Anthropologist, Historian to know that. Or should I put it this way. Their ancestors were mainly chatolics then bogomils then orthodox. But when Islam came they become muslims.

Im sane and many other people who claim that know exact number of people who lived in Bosnia before Turks. Thats why we have historians.

Now, put religon aside and then again you have Serbs Croats and Bosniaks. :tu: Can provide more info.

Then, put religion aside then you have Craots and Serbs.

Religon and nationality is not the same. Ofcourse.

And historians know their funding and popularization of their theories depend on how much they will accommodate currently influential political options.

So they will pull the numbers out of their asses if that serves the purpose.

Can they pull a stećak out of their ass?

It’s utterly wrong to pursue the idea of Croatian expansion to B&H, and I don’t ****en care if Kotromanić himself rise from the grave and starts singing Lijepa naša. Which won't happen, since Zemljica Bosna was not invented yesterday, like the concept of nation was.

Bosnia and Herzegovina is an independent, internationally recognized country with its own identity, culture, language and – thank god for small favours – rather powerful ally interested in its survival.

Survival of Bosnia and true recognition of Bosnians as Bosnians, not peronospora as we used to mock Tuđman’s abuse of term diaspora, is in Croatian interest. Let me tell you why.

If you support expansionism, regardless if your historical excuse is viable or not, your allies will be Dodig and radicals from Serbia.

That’s not company I want to see at my table.

BTW, odas gave you valuable points and you should have used them to start looking further into Bosnian history. Because the history really does repeat itself.

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To end this in a true sarcastic bosnian way...And the Balkans are wrecked again. :rolleyes:

It’s like a hobby over here...

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If you negates that Croats lived in Bosnia you are nationlist. Not I.

btw real Croats will called them Croats. facepalm

Where did you heard anyone talk trash about Bosnia in whole thread?

If I heard someone say something wrong about it I would be first to step foward and argue.

Bosnia is old state and no fake history can change it. So Odas learn real history that you can argue with people when someone mention Bosnia.

We can end this in friendship ofcourse Im just sad that you skiped so many questions and my good answer blindly defending altenative and speculative hitstory of yours.

Odas. Learn.

EDIT: to put facepalm.

No one negates on my side that in Bosnia live Croats and Serbs. They were always there and hopefully will always be there. But they have to aknowledge and accept Bosnia as a state and this is not the case.

No wonder that croats and serbs in bosnia never used to call the bosnians their true name but called us muslims or now bosniaks. I do not give a damn about both names. I am a Bosnian and my religion is my private stuff. Ones serbs and croats in bosnia realize that they are foremost Bosnians and realize that Bosnia is their home just as it is mine, then we will have true peace.

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If you support expansionism, regardless if your historical excuse is viable or not, your allies will be Dodig and radicals from Serbia.

BTW, odas gave you valuable points and you should have used them to start looking further into Bosnian history. Because the history really does repeat itself.

Unfortunately some Croats in Bosnia can not realize that.

And yes, I gave him points, I gave him links ( most of them written by Croatian historians from Croatia - what a paradox to his "reality").

Edited by odas
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Helen,

Then you dont know what does it means to be historian. Historians dont do that way.

Thats old story that we know only one part of medal. That history is written by winners.

Now we know all sides of medals. And we know losers story. There is no more mystreies in recent history.

Only debates about some opened questions.

Croatians didnt expand to BIH. They were there.

Bosnia and Herzegovina is an independent, internationally recognized country with its own identity, culture, language and – thank god for small favours – rather powerful ally interested in its survival. Agree. Dont see how that come into play. Well, whatever.

Survival of Bosnia is Croatian interest. You dont need to say me why.

I know Bosnian history and understand it very well. Odas points are wrong not valuble. He malicously skiped conversation and debate.

Im sorry Helen, but seems to me that you dont understand Croatian and Bosnian history. Im not saying that you dont know just dont understand it.

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Unfortunately some Croats in Bosnia can not realize that.

And yes, I gave him points, I gave him links ( most of them written by Croatian historians from Croatia - what a paradox to his "reality").

I know.

It’s absolutely obvious and indisputable that there are Croats in Bosnia, people who define themselves that way and no one can take that away from them.

It’s also absolutely obvious that they have to take part in every aspect of life in their own country, Bosnia and Herzegovina, and that’s the only way for them to secure their decent future. No secession, making pacts with the devil or denying reality can substitute constructive cooperation.

There’s no way to divide Bosnia without major conflict and no one will ever be happy, no matter how you draw the border lines.

Regardless of percentage of Bosnian Bosnians, Bosnian Bosniaks, Bosnian Croats, Bosnian Serbs, Bosnian Anyone-else, the division is impossible and it would have devastating consequences for the whole region.

Obviously.

We have to ask ourself, are we ready to live?

I am, but they won’t let me.

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No one negates on my side that in Bosnia live Croats and Serbs. They were always there and hopefully will always be there. But they have to aknowledge and accept Bosnia as a state and this is not the case.

No wonder that croats and serbs in bosnia never used to call the bosnians their true name but called us muslims or now bosniaks. I do not give a damn about both names. I am a Bosnian and my religion is my private stuff. Ones serbs and croats in bosnia realize that they are foremost Bosnians and realize that Bosnia is their home just as it is mine, then we will have true peace.

You are so contradict.

You live in Canada and you call yourself Bosnian.

But Croat who lives in Bosnia cant call himself Croat, he must called himself Bosnian. :w00t:

Odas, get your story straight then come back.

Edited by the L
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Helen,

Then you dont know what does it means to be historian. Historians dont do that way.

Thats old story that we know only one part of medal. That history is written by winners.

Now we know all sides of medals. And we know losers story. There is no more mystreies in recent history.

Only debates about some opened questions.

Croatians didnt expand to BIH. They were there.

Bosnia and Herzegovina is an independent, internationally recognized country with its own identity, culture, language and – thank god for small favours – rather powerful ally interested in its survival. Agree. Dont see how that come into play. Well, whatever.

Survival of Bosnia is Croatian interest. You dont need to say me why.

I know Bosnian history and understand it very well. Odas points are wrong not valuble. He malicously skiped conversation and debate.

Im sorry Helen, but seems to me that you dont understand Croatian and Bosnian history. Im not saying that you dont know just dont understand it.

There’s no debating about the fact that there are three main groups of Bosnian history versions.

It’s up to each one of us to see as much sources as possible as make up their own mind.

I made my mind. Bosnia has historically well grounded identity and sovereignty.

If you wonder why, stop waving that flag and start digging. Facts, not trenches.

*snip*

Edited by Saru
Removed personal attack
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And no one attack Bosnia and talking about divide.

You just dont know origin and early history of Bosnia thats all.

Learn that period better, I guess you didnt be in school or whatever.

Im talking about one period in history and you are talking about present. Thats wierd. :blink:

Learn, read thats all what I can tell you to you two. I love you all and everything but you are one wrong path.

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There’s no debating about the fact that there are three main groups of Bosnian history versions.

It’s up to each one of us to see as much sources as possible as make up their own mind.

I made my mind. Bosnia has historically well grounded identity and sovereignty.

If you wonder why, stop waving that flag and start digging. Facts, not trenches.

*snip*

There could be millions version. One is true.

Im well aware about Bosnian identity.

*snip*

Edited by Saru
Reciprocal bickering
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And no one attack Bosnia and talking about divide.

You just dont know origin and early history of Bosnia thats all.

Learn that period better, I guess you didnt be in school or whatever.

Im talking about one period in history and you are talking about present. Thats wierd. :blink:

Learn, read thats all what I can tell you to you two. I love you all and everything but you are one wrong path.

Whats weird is that the most limited minds always feel called to enlighten others.

*self-censored*

Edit: Oh, about learning... I sure learned but not from HDZ-approved books only.

And I will be back too :yes:

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Tell what did I tell wrong about Bogomils?

What did I tell wrong about Croats in Bosnia ?

In fact tell me anything that I told wrong? :w00t:

Edited by the L
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You just dont know thats all.

You are full of complexes that you cant hide.

Insulting is your only way when you are lack of words.

Cmon, you didnt even read what I have wrote.

About HDZ-approved books only- is HDZ world organization? :w00t:

Cant wait that you turn back. :tu: I just loved when someone dig holes. :wub:

Edited by the L
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Yes, that’s what wrecked ex-Yugoslavia.

Wasn’t Holbrooke, US or counter-revolutionary forces that commies used to see under their beds.

It was arrogance, absence of empathy and substitution of personal identity with national identity.

So what, you could say, we have that anywhere in the world.

Yes, but here the political climate coincided with the general social decline.

Ex-Yu was conglomerate state, and as such condemned to fall apart, but the way if fell apart was so ugly because of said social decline.

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That is very sad, L.

I was born in bosnia, therfore I am bosnian.

My grandchildren will be born in Canada, therefore they will be Canadians with bosnian origin.

You talk abut insults not realizing that you have insultet helen by questioning her knowledge of history. You insulted me by deniing the historical fact of bosnian thousand year long statehood.

Please do nt wish me well and do not like me, your love kills.

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Shoot c'mon all of you need to have a beer summit and celebrate you're new world. Forget the past and live for the future.

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That is very sad, L.

I was born in bosnia, therfore I am bosnian.

My grandchildren will be born in Canada, therefore they will be Canadians with bosnian origin.

You talk abut insults not realizing that you have insultet helen by questioning her knowledge of history. You insulted me by deniing the historical fact of bosnian thousand year long statehood.

Please do nt wish me well and do not like me, your love kills.

Her knowledge of history about period that Im talking about is not so well or she didnt want to show that knowledge.

Nothing wrong being wrong.

You insulted me for ignoring posts, ignoring questions and ofcourse dening truth and well accepted historical facts.

So what you want that I admit that there was Slavic tribe Bosniaks?

That Bogomils were majority backthen in Bosnia?

And so on.

Sorry that just didnt happened.

And you two are only ones who insulted here.

When you two calm down and read my posts and check historical facts then you will realized that I did not say anything wrong but truth.

Bosniaks origin are Croats, Serbs, illyrians, avars, and Ottomans. Sorry if truth hurts someone feelings.

Bogomils were sect.

When I said that I dont attack Bosnia in anyway.

Edited by the L
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