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Who Wrecked the Balkans


Persia

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Shoot c'mon all of you need to have a beer summit and celebrate you're new world. Forget the past and live for the future.

Beer summit :D

Like we couldn’t have fight over which beer is the worst ;)

Politics over here puts enormous emphasis on history, each option with its own version of history, of course, probably because that’s the easiest way to avoid real issues, like what’s happening with state budget or how we are going to stop the rampant unemployment.

It’s a smoke screen and it’s working... to my endless annoyance.

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"He was a war criminal who caused four wars, over 300,000 deaths, 2.5million homeless. Sometimes monsters make the biggest impacts on history - Hitler and Stalin - and such is the case with this gentleman."

I agree with this from article. Except fact that he caused more then 300.000 deaths. Everything different from this should be discussed in Alternative History.

Slobodan Milošević have done crime against humanity.nuff said.

I was in that war. I feel his blood thirsty madness on my skin.

This is his politic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Srebrenica_massacre

Milošević was same as Hitler. So true.

I'm going to have to correct you there.

Despite 5 years in trial at the Hague Milosevic was not convicted of war crimes. Thats actually a violation of his human rights too because if you havent been able to convict someone after 5 years in court it indicates something - no evidence. Milosevic died in the custody of the Hague which itself may raise a few eyebrows.

The Hague was under no doubt that war crimes were comitted in the former Yugoslavia but they couldnt link the actions of soliders and officers to the leader. No written orders signed by Milosevic were ever recovered . How do we know that Serbian troops werent doing what British and US troops have done and comitted crimes off their own backs?

Killing terrorists is also not illegal under international law. It seems to have slipped peopels minds that the Kosovo crises was born out of something similar to 9/11 where Muslim terrorists were trying to declare Kosovo and independant state and using violance to achieve it.

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I'm going to have to correct you there.

Despite 5 years in trial at the Hague Milosevic was not convicted of war crimes. Thats actually a violation of his human rights too because if you havent been able to convict someone after 5 years in court it indicates something - no evidence. Milosevic died in the custody of the Hague which itself may raise a few eyebrows.

The Hague was under no doubt that war crimes were comitted in the former Yugoslavia but they couldnt link the actions of soliders and officers to the leader. No written orders signed by Milosevic were ever recovered . How do we know that Serbian troops werent doing what British and US troops have done and comitted crimes off their own backs?

Killing terrorists is also not illegal under international law. It seems to have slipped peopels minds that the Kosovo crises was born out of something similar to 9/11 where Muslim terrorists were trying to declare Kosovo and independant state and using violance to achieve it.

Yes that indicate something.

That you are or Serb who adores Milosevic or that you dont know anything about recent history. :tu:

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Sorry it is not in English. I might translate it later:

Dubravko Lovrenovic, katolik (ako ti je to vec bitno) i profesor je nakon 750 stranica analitickog i profesionalnog rada zakljucio:"Kako je poglavar Bosanske Crkve okrunio sve bosanske kraljeve osim zadnjeg Bosanskog kralja: Stefana Stijepana Tomasevica. On je to zakljucio pohodajuci vise raznih puteve i izlazeci na isti zakljucak ali do te konkluzije su i mnogo decenija prije dosli drugi istoricari. Papina kruna u Bosnu stize tek za vrijeme zadnjeg Bosanskog kralja. Papinu krunu niko od bosanske vlastele ili Bosanske Crkve nikada nije nazvao "Svetom krunom". Svetu kruna je bila ona kruna koju je Crkva Bosanska stavila na glavu Tvrtka I Kotromanica i o kojoj je Tvrtko I Kotromanic poslao Dubrovniku kao "Svetoj kruni". To je ona nama poznata kruna sa ljiljanima koja se pojavljuje na slikama i novcicima u dvije variante od koje je najvjerovatnije samo jedna imala prefiks "sveta". Takvu krunu je imala i Ugarska pored Papine krune koja nije bila sveta. Sveta kruna je bila "nacionalna kruna", dok je Papinska kruna bila vjerska kruna.

Znaci iako je katolicanstvo bilo prisutno u Bosni, te iako je Ugarska probala da od Bosne napravi katolicku zemlju svo vrijeme, kao sto to sam Dubravko Lovrenovic pise, ipak ona nije uspijela u tome. Cak je i Ugarski kralj vise puta govorio kako ce "da se okruni bosanskom krunom" ali nikada nije uspijeo iako je cak i jedno vrijeme zauzeo Bobovac. Bosanci su cak i sklopili savez sa Turcima da bi se oslobodili tog Ugarskog pritiska i tako se zajedno sa Turcima sudarili sa Ugarskom vojskom kod Dobora i to sa uspjesnim zavrsetkom.

Bez sumnje je Crkva Bosanska bila drzavna crkva i oko toga se slazu najugledniji Srpski i Hrvatski istoricari. Crkva Bosanska ne samo da je krunila bosanske kraljeve nego je i cuvala arhivu bosanskog dvora a jedino je dvor u srednjem vijeku bilo mjestu gdje je su se pisale knjige crkvene, gdje je su hronicari pisali itd. Tako je napisana na bosanskom dvoru knjiga o "istoriji kuce Kotromanica" npr., iako je izgubljena ipak su dijelovi njezini sacuvani u hronikama Popa Duklanina. Crkva Bosanska je bila svo vrijeme instrumenat Bosanske kohezije i identiteta. CB je, kao sto Dubravko Lovrenovic pise, okupila Bosansko drustvo. Niti jedan bosanski kralj osim zadnjeg naseg kralja nije probao da skloni Crkbu Bosansku sa pozicije drzavne crkve i iz mnogih povelja bosanskih kraljeva se moze primijetiti postovanje prema CB i njezinom poglavaru i totalno priznanje iste kao drzavne crkve. Tek nakon sto su Turci provalili Bosanske granice i nakon sto bosancima nije ostalo nista drugo nego da se totalno okrenu katolickom svijetu, tek tada stize Papina kruna u Bosni i tek tada se crkva Bosanska mice sa pozicije "drzavne crkve" a njezini vjernici bivaju brutalno ubijani.

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Yes that indicate something.

That you are or Serb who adores Milosevic or that you dont know anything about recent history. :tu:

All people are entitled to a fair trial and a conviction is reached off evidence not your opinion.

I'm also English.

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Shoot c'mon all of you need to have a beer summit and celebrate you're new world. Forget the past and live for the future.

:tu::tu:

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Yes, that’s what wrecked ex-Yugoslavia.

Wasn’t Holbrooke, US or counter-revolutionary forces that commies used to see under their beds.

It was arrogance, absence of empathy and substitution of personal identity with national identity.

So what, you could say, we have that anywhere in the world.

Yes, but here the political climate coincided with the general social decline.

Ex-Yu was conglomerate state, and as such condemned to fall apart, but the way if fell apart was so ugly because of said social decline.

The Balklands have always been a mess right back to the Crusades.

There is so much bad history there its impossible to iron out the creeses.

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Odas you are skiping. :tu:

And it is not important that he was chatolic. That tells more about you then about me.

What realy interests me is whats your opinion on Croats and Serbs?

Are you find them repulsive in some way?

You remind me on one person on this forum who was obviously not black skin who didnt want to accept that our origin is African.

Okay there was other theories like multi regional and so on. He was like NO my ancestors were not from africa, they were not black.

Odas there was not Bosniaks slavic tribe. Your originate from other slavic tribes. If you find your ancestors repulsive thats your problem.

And dont tell me that I mixed things since you mentioned sect as pre-nation of yours.

Bosniaks were created in time. You are different from rest of Slavens, now. But didnt be always like that.

You separate. And become different in time.

Same as Croats separate from other Slavic tribe and so on.

Bogomils are irelevant when we talk about origin.

Bosnian language came much later. Bosnian term in 13 century (?) correct me if Im wrong.

Territory of Bosnia was lets say very fluid thing. Borders came much later.

Customs and traditions of Bosnia is very unique and very different which was created in time.

Before birth of Bosnia as nation there was not Bosniaks or surley Bogomils were not nation.

There was Slavic tribes called Croats and Serbs.

Maybe some slavic tribe came but not that Im aware of it.

Bogomils are relvant to the birth of Bosnian nation since all Bogomils accepted Islam. So that way their customs and traditions goes in direction what we call Bosnian customs. But big part played Ottoman empire. Also one big civilization that admire whole world. So nothing to be ashamed of. But ancestors of Bosniaks were not some unnamed slavic tribe.

Well whole this debate I didnt look in any book of mine. But If I start to dig info or quote historians

this thread would become neverending story.

Edited by the L
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I'm going to have to correct you there.

Despite 5 years in trial at the Hague Milosevic was not convicted of war crimes. Thats actually a violation of his human rights too because if you havent been able to convict someone after 5 years in court it indicates something - no evidence. Milosevic died in the custody of the Hague which itself may raise a few eyebrows.

The Hague was under no doubt that war crimes were comitted in the former Yugoslavia but they couldnt link the actions of soliders and officers to the leader. No written orders signed by Milosevic were ever recovered . How do we know that Serbian troops werent doing what British and US troops have done and comitted crimes off their own backs?Killing terrorists is also not illegal under international law. It seems to have slipped peopels minds that the Kosovo crises was born out of something similar to 9/11 where Muslim terrorists were trying to declare Kosovo and independant state and using violance to achieve it.

Is that a rhetorical question? :lol:

BTW, Albanians in Kosovo are accidentally mostly Muslim but Albanians are not religiously exclusive. Since Albanian not really hidden ambition is to unite one day, it certainly can't be islamic state.

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Is that a rhetorical question? :lol:

BTW, Albanians in Kosovo are accidentally mostly Muslim but Albanians are not religiously exclusive. Since Albanian not really hidden ambition is to unite one day, it certainly can't be islamic state.

I dont know the politics of Albania but I do remember the Muslims inside Kosovo were doing terrorist acts and that triggered the Kosovo Conflict.

I dont know how Croatians see it all. Do you see the Albanians in kosovo as terrorists or do you see the Serbs as being in the wrong?

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The Balklands have always been a mess right back to the Crusades.

There is so much bad history there its impossible to iron out the creeses.

Sorry, I could have multiquoted but I just saw this one... anyway...

One of complications with Balklands is that Slovenia and Croatia are definitely Central Europe, forcing them on Balkans is nice example of ironing.

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I dont know the politics of Albania but I do remember the Muslims inside Kosovo were doing terrorist acts and that triggered the Kosovo Conflict.

I dont know how Croatians see it all. Do you see the Albanians in kosovo as terrorists or do you see the Serbs as being in the wrong?

We mostly think: thank god, there're poor Bosnia and Montenegro between us and that mess.

Edit: I often forget to mention the obvious. Because it is obvious so I think there's no need to mention it... but it's the key part here so here goes:

Of course, Kosovo didn’t blow up because some islamist maniacs appeared there over night.

Albanians were much oppressed majority and it was obvious one day their patience will run out.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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Sorry, I could have multiquoted but I just saw this one... anyway...

One of complications with Balklands is that Slovenia and Croatia are definitely Central Europe, forcing them on Balkans is nice example of ironing.

But they have been there 1000's of years so its their land.

We mostly think: thank god, there're poor Bosnia and Montenegro between us and that mess.

Edit: I often forget to mention the obvious. Because it is obvious so I think there's no need to mention it... but it's the key part here so here goes:

Of course, Kosovo didn’t blow up because some islamist maniacs appeared there over night.

Albanians were much oppressed majority and it was obvious one day their patience will run out.

Kosovo is Serbian but Albanian immigrants tries to take it away? Is that closer?

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But they have been there 1000's of years so its their land.

:lol:

Slovenia and Croatia are tagged Balkan since 1918.

I’m sorry but I don’t feel like explaining the basics for the umpteenth time, giving links or quoting prominent anyone.

Trust me when I say it or research it.

Kosovo is Serbian but Albanian immigrants tries to take it away? Is that closer?

No, it's almost the opposite of that.

Albanians were already there when first Slavs came. It would be insane to let ancient history trump the current situation but if we’re nitpicking, Illyrians and Celts were here long before Slavs.

Though the latest DNA research shows that South Slavs are significantly more Illyrian than Slavic, so we have another can of worms opened in Balkans. :D

Wait, Serbs are the most Slavic among South Slavs, around 30% I think... but Albanians are 20% Slavic so there... :lol:

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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To continue in DNA revue tone…

Indigenous Peoples in Croatia

Illyrian 34 %

Slav 20 %

Celtic 18 %

Teuton 12 %

Phoenician 8 %

Hellenic People 8 %

Indigenous Peoples in Serbia & Montenegro

Slav 30 %

Illyrian 21 %

Teuton 18 %

Celtic 14 %

Phoenician 9 %

Hellenic People 6 %

Vikings 2 %

And… wait for it…

Indigenous Peoples in Bosnia-Herzegovina

Illyrian 40 %

Teuton 20 %

Celtic 15 %

Slav 15 %

Hunnians 6 %

Thracians 4 %

We have an Illyrian winner!

But some historians know better.

:lol:

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My knowledge about biology is not so high. I will search for help, ask few of my dear people about genetics in area then I will retutn to you.

But already can tell that some numbers look suspicious.

Also you cant take Croats as Croats since area is turbolent.

For example I know for sure that DNA of Dalmatians is much different from rest of Croats.

Same as parts of Bosnia and Serbia.

But I will check. Rightnow, highly doubt that numbers are correct.Maybe Im wrong. We will see.

Can you give source of the research?

Who done research?

On how many people?

From what area?

Edited by the L
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*snip*

Now the genetic fun&games...

Igenea DNA research was bitterly attacked by Greeks, furious since that research shows Macedonians are in 30% descendants of ancient Macedonians, while that percentage is only 5 in Greece. It actually gave scientific support for Macedonian claim on Macedonian name, thus shaking the Greater Greece case (yes, there's even the Greater Greece project... like they have no other problems to deal with).

It's welcomed or discarded in South Slavic lands depending on political views of particular person, not depending on nation.

So you have people who said - yes, that's what we suspected all along, and others, who cry ethnically pure tears over their true ancestry, now plastered all over Internet.

Typical modern Bosnian DNA shows existence of well rooted indigeneous population that was willing to accept newcomers (Slavs for instance) but it was numerous enough to remain dominant in relation to newcomer groups even to this very day.

The most hilarious itsy-bitsy little detail is that people in particular area are more related to their close neighbours of different nation than to members of their own nation who live in distant areas.

So, for example, Bosnian Serbs are more related to Bosnian Croats or Bosnian Muslims than to Serbs in Serbia.

There goes Greater Serbia down the drains and takes all other consequent greaterisms away.

Edited by Saru
Reciprocal bickering
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- Post removed -

L, comparing with your and mine posts, not only on this matter, Helen looks like someone with a masters (tripple) degree. You called her now a few time iliterate and uneducated. You start with personal insults but can not take any.

I personaly gave you numerous links, from historians, scientists, akademics who more or less prove my and Helens claims. You descided to ignore all of them in favour of a fake balkan history which was created during different regimes in Bosnia as it pleased them.

Tho whole historian world knows that Albanians are indigues people of Balkans. The whole historian world has proof that the Balkan nations are a mix of illyrians, slavs and others. The whole historian world knows about the impact of the bogumil church of bosnia on Bosnia and their statehood.

I am tired of this conversation and your disrespect of Helen. You might be living now in a cultural and well read intelectual Zagreb, but you kept your manners and ideology from Livno area.

Please ask the Bosnian Croats from Posavina what they think about your ideologie and you will find it is very different what they think.

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Thank you, odas, you’re a true gentleman.

But don’t worry, since I’m rather experienced and slightly psychic, I can tell who exactly is behind certain avatar. Sometimes I dissect that immediately, sometimes I let it simmer in its own juice.

Let’s go back on topic. Which is the fall of ex-Yugoslavia and consequential conflicts.

Bosnian Croats from Bosanska Posavina (Bosnian northern region) even sing this line:

Posavino, spaljena i pusta, izdala te nakrivljena usta!

(Posavina, burnt and laid waste, betrayed by crooked mouth!)

“Crooked mouth” is Croatian president at that time, 1990s, Tudjman, who cold-bloodedly swapped Posavina with Milosevic. He didn’t care for Posavljaci (inhabitants of Posavina), who were running over the border to Croatia to save their lives when lines against chetniks were abandoned by direct Tudjman’s command.

What were Croatian forces doing in north Bosnia? Pushing Serbian forces back to stop the constant artillery attacks on Croatia from Serbia-occupied Bosnian territory and protect civilians from being ethnically cleansed (meaning: killed for being non-Serbs).

So when Tudjman ordered drawback out of the blue, some of our units almost remained surrounded by Serbian (combined paramilitary chetniks and JNA) forces and that’s something I will never, ever forget or forgive. Never and not even then.

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This thread is in danger of being closed due to personal attacks and bickering, can we keep things civil and on topic please.

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On topic, please.

I'm not the topic here. The fall of ex-Yu is.

Edit: thank you, boss. This matter is important, it would be shame to have it derailed.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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This thread is in danger of being closed due to personal attacks and bickering, can we keep things civil and on topic please.

:tu: Please, dont closed thread. I will leave because of all that you mentioned.

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