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Saucy Jack

Why did you stop being a Skeptic (or cynic)?

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Saucy Jack

Hello!

I must first and foremost proclaim to all who read this forum, that this is most definitely not an original, inspired idea created solely in my head. I saw another topic with the title of "Why you Became a Skeptic" or something to that nature. As many things in nature are balanced, I thought that a topic with the opposite tilt would be required.

As a measure of good faith, the other topic is located here: Why you Became a Skeptic

With that in mind, I will ask that decorum is maintained, and those who would insult the people who post on this topic, please refrain from doing so. I will not hesitate to report those who are malicious or inciting in their posts towards others. Also, this is not to be an out and out complaint session about skeptics. Explaining why you feel like you are not one is fine, going into three paragraph lectures on their (perceived) faults "is right out".

With that in mind, I guess I'll start out as a measure of good faith.

I am not really a skeptic, or a believer, at least how I see the definitions thrown about.

I have experienced much in the realms of the supernatural/paranormal, from childhood up until present, and on a non-frequent, sporadic, but continuing basis. I have frequently been around places where other people have experienced things that I didn't (alas but for the vagaries of fate and luck that I didn't). However, I have not had a true experience that stands out to say, "Bam! This is evidence that you can show the world. It can be tested, repeated, and observed.” and without that, I am left with the quandary of not truly seeing the level belief that others hold. I may know in my mind that the things I have experienced have some merit, but without the proof that people desire, I can't consign myself to believing in the full existence of what I have experienced. I do not think of them as hallucinations, or failures in reasoning, but merely aberrations in the "laws" of physics. As such, I don't hold myself to be a true believer, as I can't do anything specific on a request basis.

On the other hand, the tools with which most skeptics use to debunk paranormal and supernatural events/ experiences seem to me to be just as far fetched at times as the feelings they have towards the believers. Proudly declaring that it is always "modified memory" or "false perceptions" on singular scale, or event on scales of multiple persons experiencing the same thing requires a strident kind of belief that I find in direct opposition to the scientific method. The constant backpedaling of excuses witnessed from other "skeptics" in the form of escalation of required proof (i.e. We want photos, we want clearer photos, they need to be clearer still, oh that could have been photoshopped; where is the original, it could have been a set up, we need a film, it could have been rigged, etc...) wore thin on me, as a witness to the concept of "scientific method". The constant use of "Occam's Razor", (it's a principle kids, not a Newtonian Law) to weed out any possible plurality of possibilities and leaving it at that, can be a scourge to the scientific method. I have seen science experiments where the anomalous results are thrown out, rather than investigated as to why the anomalous results occurred.

One of the things I am a firm believer in is the "Sheep-Goat Effect". Those that want to experience something will be more likely to experience something. Those who are rigid in their belief that nothing exists will not experience those paranormal/ supernatural events. I have seen its effects in others, on both sides of the debate.

Well, an end to my diatribe, anyone else like to share or converse?

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Silus

Apart from one experience of sleep paralysis not a single strange thing has happened to me but I am ardent believer in most paranormal things. I can't explain why but it is the way I have felt for as long as I can remember. The big one, aliens, is for me an inevitability. I don't believe that the royal family are reptilians but I'm as sure as can be that there are intelligent species from other planets.

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Its Mii

I wouldn't know how to describe myself, I believe in some things and I am highly sckeptical about others.

For example "proof" is never proof, it's usually a hoax. So the OP was right on point about "skeptics", you want to look at pictures for proof but you know that it's most likely fake, so why even look??? It's just to knock believers.

I believe there is something out there, I lived it. I have since I was a child, and so did my brother. There are many things that happened that I can excuse and say it was nothing, but then there is things that have no explanation. Some of the strangest things happened to me while I was a teenager. Once I grew into an adult I looked back, I told mmyself it wasn't real, i tried to find explanations for everything. But two years ago I had the clearest most vivid experience, and it came out of no where. I didn't cause it, I wasn't thinking about it, and other people lived it too. Now I know it's real, something was there. These last few years I have developed a very spiritual connection with the world and it made me realize there is greater power out there. If that's real there is endless possibilities as to what else excists. We are not alone. This world is beautiful, why should it belong to just us?? That's a selfish thought.

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Habitat

My elderly mother died last year. Close as we were, my grief at her death was lessened to some extent by the knowledge she had a peaceful end, and that life was burdensome to her, with too much pain from too many health problems, for too long. But you still grieve, and it is hard to bear. She was a woman of strong religious faith, and whenever she broached the topic of the 'hereafter', I would jokingly tell her not to forget, when the time came, to leave a message or sign somehow to indicate she had crossed to the 'other side'. I can say I had no expectation that was going to happen, being not convinced that there was anything beyond the grave. But I had an open mind on the subject.

When strange occurrences started happening just a week after her death, I didn't read too much into it. As time went on and all sorts of weird stuff started, and kept happening though, I start to take notice. One evening a casement window started rattling and clattering in extreme fashion, as if about to shake off the hinges. The windows were closed and curtains drawn. Convinced an attempted break-in was in progress, I approached the window, as I did the noise stopped and the curtains ruffled noticeably. Drawing the curtain, I noted the window was still locked, and opening it, there was nothing out there ( about 10 feet off the ground) and it was calm outside. I was, and remain completely nonplused by this. I grabbed and shook the windows by their fittings and frames and could not make anything like the racket I'd just heard. And what would you know, a similar episode with another window occurs again just recently, not as noisy this time, but the curtain swayed back and forth again, and no it wasn't the cat, she was in the room watching the rattling window and took off in fright. In isolation, these episodes don't add up to proof of anything, but there has been plenty of other odd happenings defying explanation. Probably the most noticeable has been recurring rearrangements of household items in to patterns, repeated several times over a period of months, on all but one occasion when there was no-one but me in the house when this happened. All totalled together, I am now firmly of the view these at least some of these things are related to her death,but more than that, I am not able to say. So I guess I am at least less of a skeptic than I once was. As the priest said at her funeral service, "no-one really knows what lies beyond the grave". :o

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Nadia B.

That Sheep-Goat theory... while logically I want to believe that, I can't say it's law. I know too many ardent believers who have turned into non-believers, and vice versa.

I'd like to look at the term "skeptic" for a moment, though. That word gets thrown around here too much as if it's either a badge of stubborn honor, or an insult. "Skeptic" simply means we look at things in terms of science, common sense, and reason. Technically, I'd call myself a skeptic based on the fact that I refuse to jump to a paranormal reason for anything. Too many times what people call paranormal, really is NOT. However, I AM a true believer in many things. I believe in ghosts or spirits, for instance. That belief doesn't mean I'm going to tell everyone that posts about a supposed haunting, YESOMGMOVE OUT!

Just my two cents. :) I hate being labeled. :lol:

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Saucy Jack

That Sheep-Goat theory... while logically I want to believe that, I can't say its law. I know too many ardent believers who have turned into non-believers, and vice versa.

Well... I won't say it's a law, in as much as others say that Occam's Razor is a Law. (Maybe the Sheep/Goat Theory will Blunt the Razor, and both be destroyed? just a bit of humor) I will say that in my practical experience, it has held true with about as much frequency as the Razor, so who is to say, as the saying goes, YMMV.

I'd like to look at the term "skeptic" for a moment, though. That word gets thrown around here too much as if it's either a badge of stubborn honor, or an insult. "Skeptic" simply means we look at things in terms of science, common sense, and reason. Technically, I'd call myself a skeptic based on the fact that I refuse to jump to a paranormal reason for anything. Too many times what people call paranormal, really is NOT. However, I AM a true believer in many things. I believe in ghosts or spirits, for instance. That belief doesn't mean I'm going to tell everyone that posts about a supposed haunting, YESOMGMOVE OUT!

Just my two cents. :) I hate being labeled. :lol:

A true Skeptic, I really have not much of a problem with. Although, with that in mind, from definition b, nothing can be disproved since there is not in any way in this realm a complete amount of true knowledge). A true skeptic will usually approach a situation with an open mind, right? (lol, interestingly enough, scientific skepticism usually refrains from testing paranormal and religious beliefs, as they exist outside the realm of testable material).

I will agree with you, that many times, people may call things paranormal, when a suitable simple normal identification may be reached. I have found though that those who call themselves skeptics (with the caveat that they are probably not actually) that more often utter dismissal will be reached before any attempt at investigation.

I know of hoaxes, and I find the people that do perform hoaxes to be the lowest forms of life in this field. Especially those who do not believe (cynic-skeptics) who perform hoaxes to either get a null evidence record (a hoax easily could cancel out a true result in statistical comparison) or to "get one over on the believers".

For my experience, it's the people who have proclaimed themselves skeptics, while truly being cynics, (and belittling people who may believe in the things they dismiss) which get my goat.

Skeptic has been irrevocably stained in my eyes, and I'll never use the term for myself. Unfortunately, those who claim to be skeptics may end up getting a worst first impression in my eyes than others, but such is life. Life is built thru experiences, and experiential data is all that one has to go off of, to make one's decisions.

Although I do say to you, cheers, and thank you for you addition to the topic.

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Nadia B.

For my experience, it's the people who have proclaimed themselves skeptics, while truly being cynics, (and belittling people who may believe in the things they dismiss) which get my goat.

This is sooooo true, and I think that's where the bad rep comes in. And just to clarify, I only said I don't jump to a paranormal excuse FIRST. I'd certainly go with a paranormal reasoning if the more obvious normal reasons have been exhausted. There are some people that will go to stupidly insane lengths to explain something in "scientific" terms, which turns them from skeptic to cynic, as you said.

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Rock-Star

Hi Jack

Thank you for using my post to produce a counterpoint. Balance is always good. I personally have became a skeptic simply out of seeing a great many things easily explained away just by giving them a little thought. I'm not even talking serious scientific reasoning here, just mundane, everyday explanations. I actually came to this site as a believer, and one who tended to immediately assign "paranormal" explanations to a lot of things. Hearing a multitude of sensible, level headed reasons for a lot of occurences similar to my personal experiences, however, led me to my skeptical way of thinking.

So, I personally am not here to "slam" the "believers", simply to offer my opinions on what rational causes their experiences could be resulting from. I'll freely admit, finding out that a lot of things weren't paranormal was initially kind of disapointing! Sort of akin to a kid finding out there is no Santa Claus, it makes the world a little less interesting. By no means am I an expert, and I can't explain everything. I just think that in most cases, digging a little beyond the surface and thoroughly thinking things through will lead one to the cause of what they experienced. Thanks for the post.

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Saucy Jack

Apart from one experience of sleep paralysis not a single strange thing has happened to me but I am ardent believer in most paranormal things. I can't explain why but it is the way I have felt for as long as I can remember. The big one, aliens, is for me an inevitability. I don't believe that the royal family are reptilians but I'm as sure as can be that there are intelligent species from other planets.

Thank you for your post, I appreciate you sharing your thoughts! I can agree that some thigns seem a bit more far fetched than others.

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Saucy Jack

This is sooooo true, and I think that's where the bad rep comes in. And just to clarify, I only said I don't jump to a paranormal excuse FIRST. I'd certainly go with a paranormal reasoning if the more obvious normal reasons have been exhausted. There are some people that will go to stupidly insane lengths to explain something in "scientific" terms, which turns them from skeptic to cynic, as you said.

Then we are in agreement as it is known, I didn't try to make specific judgements towards you, just observations as a whole towards the edges of the Skeptic spectrum.

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Superglobe

As I may or may not have said in the other thread. The whole skeptic/believer dichotomy is rubbish.

If I choose to believe in something, it's because I think it's scientifically sound. If I don't, it's not. Period.

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~TheBigK~

Technically, I'd call myself a skeptic based on the fact that I refuse to jump to a paranormal reason for anything. Too many times what people call paranormal, really is NOT. However, I AM a true believer in many things. I believe in ghosts or spirits, for instance.

That's essentially what I was going to say about myself. I like to think that I have a good amount of skepticism but am still open-minded. Somewhere in the middle, if you will.

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Nadia B.

Then we are in agreement as it is known, I didn't try to make specific judgements towards you, just observations as a whole towards the edges of the Skeptic spectrum.

I know you weren't, but after reading what exactly I said, I didn't feel I got the whole story out there. :lol: Just felt my statements needed a lil clarification. ^_^

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Saucy Jack

Hi Jack

Thank you for using my post to produce a counterpoint. Balance is always good. I personally have became a skeptic simply out of seeing a great many things easily explained away just by giving them a little thought. I'm not even talking serious scientific reasoning here, just mundane, everyday explanations. I actually came to this site as a believer, and one who tended to immediately assign "paranormal" explanations to a lot of things. Hearing a multitude of sensible, level headed reasons for a lot of occurences similar to my personal experiences, however, led me to my skeptical way of thinking.

You are welcome! It was just fitting, as one side of the spectrum was represented, so should another, at the very least, for logical balance issues. (shh... my cosmic balance sense is tingling... JUST KIDDING!) I will agree that for a lot of phenomena, there are perfectly mundane explanations. But as a theoretical opposition, and throwing Occam's Gillette out the window, could there be things that we are currently accepting as conventional, which are just happening to work, even thought they have a supernatural cause? As a joking example, (and if anyone knows where this is from they get props from me), maybe sneezes aren't caused by allergies, but by Nose Gremlins? (Please take into account that this is a far-fetched example from fiction).

I am glad that you have grown since arriving here, as it represents a path from stagnation, which can be a ruin to a healthy mind, and bear no ill will towards the premise of your topic at all. Those who wish to proclaim what caused/ trigger the evolution of their frame of reference are most assuredly free to do so. I merely wished to offer the same thing to the other advancement of personal reference.

So, I personally am not here to "slam" the "believers", simply to offer my opinions on what rational causes their experiences could be resulting from. I'll freely admit, finding out that a lot of things weren't paranormal was initially kind of disapointing! Sort of akin to a kid finding out there is no Santa Claus, it makes the world a little less interesting. By no means am I an expert, and I can't explain everything. I just think that in most cases, digging a little beyond the surface and thoroughly thinking things through will lead one to the cause of what they experienced. Thanks for the post.

I am most sorry if I insinuated that your post or direction was to slam or insult believers. I was specifically referring to a generalization of others people that claim to be skeptics. There are some skeptics that are rather abrasive to say the least (this is not to excuse the zealotry of believers in any way). To each their own, is the best way to be. However, if I see someone metaphorically slap someone with a glove or punch another person in the nose, I know to expect that from that offender, and to be wary among others that purport to be like said offender.

Thank you for recognizing my post, though at diametric opposition it may be.

Cheers!

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Nadia B.

As a joking example, (and if anyone knows where this is from they get props from me), maybe sneezes aren't caused by allergies, but by Nose Gremlins? (Please take into account that this is a far-fetched example from fiction).

Oh oh trivia yay! It wasn't Clerks 2, was it? xD

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Saucy Jack

For example "proof" is never proof, it's usually a hoax. So the OP was right on point about "skeptics", you want to look at pictures for proof but you know that it's most likely fake, so why even look??? It's just to knock believers.

I don't know if all skeptics are out to "knock believers", but I do know that many I have read are inclined to expose their vitriolic rhetoric towards the believer camp. I will also point out that I have seen the same shot right back at the skeptics, though.

I believe there is something out there, I lived it. I have since I was a child, and so did my brother. There are many things that happened that I can excuse and say it was nothing, but then there is things that have no explanation. Some of the strangest things happened to me while I was a teenager. Once I grew into an adult I looked back, I told mmyself it wasn't real, i tried to find explanations for everything. But two years ago I had the clearest most vivid experience, and it came out of no where. I didn't cause it, I wasn't thinking about it, and other people lived it too. Now I know it's real, something was there. These last few years I have developed a very spiritual connection with the world and it made me realize there is greater power out there. If that's real there is endless possibilities as to what else excists. We are not alone. This world is beautiful, why should it belong to just us?? That's a selfish thought.

Well, I am glad that you have reconciled those events that have happened in the past. If the event that brought you to this thought process brought you to a better frame of mind, and a better sense of well being, then it was most definitely a positive adjustment, and can only hope that more people receive realizations that reverberate in their being in a similar manner, no matter what the direction of their advancement.

Cheers!

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Saucy Jack

My elderly mother died last year. Close as we were, my grief at her death was lessened to some extent by the knowledge she had a peaceful end, and that life was burdensome to her, with too much pain from too many health problems, for too long. But you still grieve, and it is hard to bear. She was a woman of strong religious faith, and whenever she broached the topic of the 'hereafter', I would jokingly tell her not to forget, when the time came, to leave a message or sign somehow to indicate she had crossed to the 'other side'. I can say I had no expectation that was going to happen, being not convinced that there was anything beyond the grave. But I had an open mind on the subject.

When strange occurrences started happening just a week after her death, I didn't read too much into it. As time went on and all sorts of weird stuff started, and kept happening though, I start to take notice. One evening a casement window started rattling and clattering in extreme fashion, as if about to shake off the hinges. The windows were closed and curtains drawn. Convinced an attempted break-in was in progress, I approached the window, as I did the noise stopped and the curtains ruffled noticeably. Drawing the curtain, I noted the window was still locked, and opening it, there was nothing out there ( about 10 feet off the ground) and it was calm outside. I was, and remain completely nonplused by this. I grabbed and shook the windows by their fittings and frames and could not make anything like the racket I'd just heard. And what would you know, a similar episode with another window occurs again just recently, not as noisy this time, but the curtain swayed back and forth again, and no it wasn't the cat, she was in the room watching the rattling window and took off in fright. In isolation, these episodes don't add up to proof of anything, but there has been plenty of other odd happenings defying explanation. Probably the most noticeable has been recurring rearrangements of household items in to patterns, repeated several times over a period of months, on all but one occasion when there was no-one but me in the house when this happened. All totalled together, I am now firmly of the view these at least some of these things are related to her death,but more than that, I am not able to say. So I guess I am at least less of a skeptic than I once was. As the priest said at her funeral service, "no-one really knows what lies beyond the grave". :o

I am glad that you got a message that spoke to you as much as it did. Thank you for sharing! Cheers!

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Saucy Jack

As I may or may not have said in the other thread. The whole skeptic/believer dichotomy is rubbish.

If I choose to believe in something, it's because I think it's scientifically sound. If I don't, it's not. Period.

And that would be your decision, as it is anyone decision. Someone will believe what they desire, be it in the mythos of science, or the logics of mythology and magic. (inversion used for effect). To some, the path that they choose leads them to not acknowledge the insights that the other side might have. I must say, however, that this is in direct opposition to the original premise, in that you don't believe you ever were a believer or a skeptic, if I am understanding your premise correctly.

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Saucy Jack

Oh oh trivia yay! It wasn't Clerks 2, was it? xD

Might have been in there, but it came from before that...

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constantine319

One of the things I am a firm believer in is the "Sheep-Goat Effect". Those that want to experience something will be more likely to experience something. Those who are rigid in their belief that nothing exists will not experience those paranormal/ supernatural events. I have seen its effects in others, on both sides of the debate.

I am with you 150% here. You're right in your conversation with Enid, it's not a law - or at least, I don't look at it that way - but I always try to remind people that if they believe x, they subconsciously expect x because that is what they believe, and so it will happen. (I think this is actually part of the Law of Attraction, which is a 'law of the universe' stating that what you put out comes back to you.)

Why did I stop being a skeptic? Because life was very dull on that far side of the spectrum. It sucked, wanting to point out the flaws in other people's beliefs simply because I felt that they weren't enlightened. And as I opened up and tried to respect the opinions of others, an amazing thing started happening. I started experiencing strange **** that I couldn't explain.

Now, I'll also throw in that for quite a long time I was terrified of the sound of the water softener in my basement switching itself on or off at approximately 1:30 am every night, because after I 'opened up' I was absolutely convinced it was some demon thing out to get me. It was loud enough that I could discern it was indeed a noise but not loud enough that I could easily identify what it was, so the confusion probably made things worse. I finally 'debunked' this occurrence, and as you might imagine, was terribly embarrassed after wards.

But I've also come to the place where I don't feel like I need 'proof' of anything. I've had my experiences, and I accept them for what they are. I have had 'encounters' - again, practicing psychic medium here - but I don't hold onto those as proof that anything else exists. I know what I can do because I've proved it to myself. I believe there is life after death because I've experienced spirits in a way that I literally cannot describe to many people because it's like trying to describe color to someone who has never seen. I don't expect my experiences to convince scientists or anyone else, nor do I attempt to change the minds of anyone who doesn't wish to have their mind changed. I believe what I believe, and I respect people for having their own beliefs.

IF there's proof found one day, that can be shown to a scientist and be proven, then that's great, that's wonderful. I will be out there with all the psychics and mediums in the world throwing a HUGE party that day. But I'm not looking for it. I'm not relying on it I'm certainly not holding my breath for it. Because this way, if it never comes, I'm already over it.

Very cool thread. Hope to see more stories here.

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Rock-Star

I am most sorry if I insinuated that your post or direction was to slam or insult believers.

No worries, Jack. I didn't take you that way at all :) . I just thought some others might make that assumption about me simply because I refer to myself as a skeptic. I was very happy with the interesting responses my topic generated, and I hope this one will continue to do the same for you. By the way, welcome to UM!

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Its Mii

I don't know if all skeptics are out to "knock believers", but I do know that many I have read are inclined to expose their vitriolic rhetoric towards the believer camp. I will also point out that I have seen the same shot right back at the skeptics, though.

Well, I am glad that you have reconciled those events that have happened in the past. If the event that brought you to this thought process brought you to a better frame of mind, and a better sense of well being, then it was most definitely a positive adjustment, and can only hope that more people receive realizations that reverberate in their being in a similar manner, no matter what the direction of their advancement.

Cheers!

I'm not saying they're all out to knock us. What I was trying to say is if they really wanted to believe they wouldn't be looking somewhere so shallow as a picture for proof. A picture will never prove anything, no matter how good it is. Also there is no way that a picture can contain or even begin to explain all the different levels of the paranormal. There is so many feelings that come with it, if they really wanted to experience something they would launch themselves out to live things. :lol:

Not everything in my past I have been able to explain, however some i was able to debunk :lol: . For the most part I think all of it has shaped me in to who I am and has reinforced my beliefs. Everything in our lives we should use to grow into a better person. :tu:

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Saucy Jack

Why did I stop being a skeptic? Because life was very dull on that far side of the spectrum. It sucked, wanting to point out the flaws in other people's beliefs simply because I felt that they weren't enlightened. And as I opened up and tried to respect the opinions of others, an amazing thing started happening. I started experiencing strange **** that I couldn't explain.

I'm glad that you moved from such a callous position to something you feel is better for you. One might say that Negativity breeds its own... Why shouldn't a more positive outlook do the same

But I've also come to the place where I don't feel like I need 'proof' of anything. I've had my experiences, and I accept them for what they are. I have had 'encounters' - again, practicing psychic medium here - but I don't hold onto those as proof that anything else exists. I know what I can do because I've proved it to myself. I believe there is life after death because I've experienced spirits in a way that I literally cannot describe to many people because it's like trying to describe color to someone who has never seen. I don't expect my experiences to convince scientists or anyone else, nor do I attempt to change the minds of anyone who doesn't wish to have their mind changed. I believe what I believe, and I respect people for having their own beliefs.

IF there's proof found one day, that can be shown to a scientist and be proven, then that's great, that's wonderful. I will be out there with all the psychics and mediums in the world throwing a HUGE party that day. But I'm not looking for it. I'm not relying on it I'm certainly not holding my breath for it. Because this way, if it never comes, I'm already over it.

Very cool thread. Hope to see more stories here.

I too hope that more facets of people's unique experiences are shared. I am also glad that you are confident enough in your own reasoning and abilities to not require proof. It is a rare thing to reach it as a matter of evolution of thought, rather than just stagnation of thought.

Cheers!

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Saucy Jack

No worries, Jack. I didn't take you that way at all :) . I just thought some others might make that assumption about me simply because I refer to myself as a skeptic. I was very happy with the interesting responses my topic generated, and I hope this one will continue to do the same for you. By the way, welcome to UM!

I'm glad that some people are stepping out and trying to redefine what a skeptic is, rather than letting people continue to influence it for better or worse. Thank you for your welcoming, I was honestly considering not joining, from what I read from some of the "cyntics" on these boards. Then I decided screw it, at least it'll be a diversion from the ordinary humdrum day to day, right?

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White Crane Feather

Born again Christian turned atheist turned agnostic turned agnostic theist turned shamanic trainee here.

Long story.

I happen to be a skeptic of skeptics and sienceism as well as not beleiving in most things that I hear. but I don't discount it either. There are things that happen that defy explanation and it's a premature judgement to label it paranormal or of easily explained science.

I happen to beleive that paranormal things are a deeper form of nature and are not paranormal at all just far far far removed from our current understanding of that nature indeed possibly a misunderstanding of it. Things like wave particle duality, entanglement, conciousness, and quantum teleportation would be labeled paranormal if they were not so easily observed.

The common skeptical attitude is resonable but limited by mthodology, the need for reductionist data, human error, technology, Occams Razor, a missunderstanding of causality, mathmatics, and host of other things.

I cannot participate in that given what I have personaly wittnessed, experienced, and participate in.

But I do not blame those for being skeptical of certain things who do not have those experiences. It's nearly impossible to trust others, and indeed I would be and was one of them. ( I'm not talking about the things that go bump in the night, teenagers with super powers, ghost hunters, or UFOs) I'm speaking on deep ancient spiritualism.

Edited by Seeker79

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