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regeneratia

Fluoridegate

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Little Fish

Actually as an after thought, could you wow us with your knowledge on the BBB? In your own words please, no spam copy paste.....<snip appeal to complexity and thread derailment>

I would appreciate it if you avoided throwing outrageous abuse at members of this forum which you frequently do as a substitute for an argument, you are nothing but a bully. Below are the facts you avoided that neutralise your "the BBB protects against Fluoride" assertion. If you disagree, then state what you disagree with.

The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

everyone's body is different, this will include abnormalities, genetic differences, head injuries and such.

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Saru

Can we keep the responses civil please, while some discussions can inevitably become quite heated there's no excuse for derrogatory personal remarks and insults. Anyone who feels the need to resort to such tactics should step away and take a break from the thread.

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ShadowSot

I did read the whole thread and still I'm on the fence. Just had to post because this was freakin funny :lol: but true. If I want more Fluoride I will buy a stronger toothpaste.

Then, as Copasetic mentioned earlier, you can move to an area where they don't Fluoride to the water.

Or start an appeal to get it removed, but please make appeals off of real science results and not other stuff.

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Stellar

Or start an appeal to get it removed, but please make appeals off of real science results and not other stuff.

Unnecessary. Since when is it "ok" to force medicate someone? If someone goes to the doctor and he recommends a treatment, the patient can choose whether to accept it or not, regardless of whether their reasons are based on science or not.

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Little Fish

Unnecessary. Since when is it "ok" to force medicate someone? If someone goes to the doctor and he recommends a treatment, the patient can choose whether to accept it or not, regardless of whether their reasons are based on science or not.

absolutely! I do worry the direction society is going where members of the medical establishment, their connected corporates and others are happy with forced medication, its none of their business.

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H.H. Holmes

As copasetic said, fluoride is a micronutrient, not a medication, so I don't see where people are getting this "forced" medication idea from. Plus, all you have to do is go to the store and buy unfluoridated water, which is always available.

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Copasetic

I would appreciate it if you avoided throwing outrageous abuse at members of this forum which you frequently do as a substitute for an argument, you are nothing but a bully. Below are the facts you avoided that neutralise your "the BBB protects against Fluoride" assertion.

Right, because obviously its that I'm bullying you and could have nothing to do with you don't know what you might be talking about?

Can you answer the questions regarding the blood-brain barrier please. I'll await your responses.

If you disagree, then state what you disagree with.

The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

everyone's body is different, this will include abnormalities, genetic differences, head injuries and such.

I did address that some people this wouldn't be beneficial too. See here where I said on the very first page;

Are there a small percentage of people it may not be beneficial too? Yes, possibly just as there is a small percentage of women that folate vitamins have adverse affects on.

Like I pointed out above, not everyone reacts favorable to every medical intervention or circumstance.....Arguing that somehow supports ceasing such things is as silly as it is asinine.

Unnecessary. Since when is it "ok" to force medicate someone? If someone goes to the doctor and he recommends a treatment, the patient can choose whether to accept it or not, regardless of whether their reasons are based on science or not.

F isn't a medication, is a required and essential micronutrient.

Edit: I see HH beat me to it :lol:

Edited by Copasetic

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Copasetic

absolutely! I do worry the direction society is going where members of the medical establishment, their connected corporates and others are happy with forced medication, its none of their business.

So lay the conspiracy on us! Who are these mysterious members of the "medical establishment" and what are their "corporate" connections?

Pinching my ass off in angst here to see this one!

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The Silver Thong

Then, as Copasetic mentioned earlier, you can move to an area where they don't Fluoride to the water.

Or start an appeal to get it removed, but please make appeals off of real science results and not other stuff.

How does one move to avoid government intervention as to water.

Collecting rain water for consumption is now illegal.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainwater_collection_water.html

What will we be forced to ingest next and what alternative.

There is no need for public water to have Fluoride as there are many other ways to get more then enough fluoride. This is not choice as government public works could say we now want prozac in the water because of some obscure benefit. Water should be supplied in it;s purist form.

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Copasetic

How does one move to avoid government intervention as to water.

Collecting rain water for consumption is now illegal.

http://www.naturalnews.com/029286_rainwater_collection_water.html

What will we be forced to ingest next and what alternative.

There is no need for public water to have Fluoride as there are many other ways to get more then enough fluoride. This is not choice as government public works could say we now want prozac in the water because of some obscure benefit. Water should be supplied in it;s purist form.

Read some of the studies I posted. While other topical applications of fluoride certainly can work-- they are not nearly as effective or cost appropriate from a public health standpoint.

No one is suggesting putting prozac or medication in your water supply....

"Pure" water wouldn't be very good for you to drink ;)

Edited by Copasetic

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Copasetic

So lay the conspiracy on us! Who are these mysterious members of the "medical establishment" and what are their "corporate" connections?

Pinching my ass off in angst here to see this one!

Can I go first?

Dear Watson, it was the "dentists" in the "Watergate" with the nefarious "NWO".

That was actually kind of fun :lol:

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WoIverine

I did read the whole thread and still I'm on the fence. Just had to post because this was freakin funny :lol: but true. If I want more Fluoride I will buy a stronger toothpaste.

LOL, thanks man, I feel better today. Sorry about yesterday, I woke up frustrated and just kind of jumped on people all day. (girlfriend issues, you know how it is.) :tu:

Edited by SpiderCyde

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Br Cornelius

LOL, thanks man, I feel better today. Sorry about yesterday, I woke up frustrated and just kind of jumped on people all day. (girlfriend issues, you know how it is.) :tu:

:tu:

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DieChecker

Unnecessary. Since when is it "ok" to force medicate someone? If someone goes to the doctor and he recommends a treatment, the patient can choose whether to accept it or not, regardless of whether their reasons are based on science or not.

I agree. I think the individual should be left to decide whether to take floridated water or not.

We actually do not have floridated water in the part of town I live it. (But they do about 20 blocks away.) And my childs doctor prescribed a floride solution to give her at bed time. Here it is 3 years later and she has perfect teeth, with no cavities, (and no discoloration.) while our neighbors who did not floridate their kids have taken their two youngest, 2 and 5, in for teeth removals and extensive fillings. These kids' diets and tooth brushing habits are not too different. It might be genetic I guess, but I tend to support the doctors in this.

It did not cost much... maybe 15 dollars for a 6 month supply.

Edited by DieChecker

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Little Fish
The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

everyone's body is different, this will include abnormalities, genetic differences, head injuries and such.

I did address that some people this wouldn't be beneficial too.

ok, so you accept that some people with ill functioning BBB such as diabetics (who drink more than most) and those with fevers and certain conditions etc would be affected by toxic fluoride going direct to the brain. that alone is reason enough not to fluoridate, but you didn't address the central points. you are the one who claims to be a medical doctor, so you should know these things.

do you agree or disagree with this:

The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

Edited by Little Fish

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Little Fish

F isn't a medication, is a required and essential micronutrient.

what is fluoride essential for?

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Little Fish

How does one move to avoid government intervention as to water.

you can't avoid it by moving anyway, since it is in the food and drink supply, there is no way of knowing whether your food and drink has been contaminated with fluoridated water.

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Copasetic

what is fluoride essential for?

Are you asking because you really want to learn about human biology? If so I listed one thing it is essential for a page back.

ok, so you accept that some people with ill functioning BBB such as diabetics (who drink more than most) and those with fevers and certain conditions etc would be affected by toxic fluoride going direct to the brain. that alone is reason enough not to fluoridate, but you didn't address the central points. you are the one who claims to be a medical doctor, so you should know these things.

do you agree or disagree with this:

The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

YOU ARE ARGUING THAT A PATHOLOGICAL STATE RELATES TO A NORMAL STATE. IT DOES NOT.

Please address the question I asked you. Here they are again;

What areas? Where? Which parts of the brain? How does the impact of fenestrations play on movement of things across the BBB? Does fenestration or sinusoid matter? What about diaphragms? Could you discuss the ramifications of different junctional complexes on the BBB? How about protein structure for those complexes; Claudins? Occuldins?

Can you discuss briefly the function of the Choroid plexus? Its relation to the BBB? What about Circumventricular organs? How does changes in the BBB affect thees organs? Infection rates? Toxicology issues?

Can you run us through development of the BBB? What changes occur pre and post puberty? How effective is it in various stages of life (ie; neonates, children, preadolescences etc)?

What is the difference between a "fully developed" and "not fully developed" BBB?

What is a leaky barrier? How does the barrier change? Could you provide a citation to the "4 times more leaky" claim (any format you want is okay, though since we are talking medicine you should probably use AMA 10th edition, no abstract necessary, just the citation please).

How does the BBB become leaky? What physiological or pathophysiological changes cause leakiness? Are some areas more leaky than others? If so why? What is the impact of "leakiness" on different areas of the brain? What about junctional complexes in those areas?

Again, citation please (no abstract necessary, I can look up your reference). Can you explain how it becomes more leaky? Why does aging impact field integrity? How does cell lineage senescence affect the barrier? What morphological changes accompany cellular senescence in the barrier? Changes to junctional complexes? Changes in protein usage?

Can you discuss how variations and genetic differences affect the BBB? How about injuries? Can you discuss how genetic differences affect the zonula occludens? Can you discuss how genetic differences might impact changes in molecular weight or charge for crossing the barrier?

Can you discuss the physiology of transport maximum ( TM) for substances crossing the barrier? How about limitations to the TM? Is this a real or calculable variable? Is it a physiological variable? How might splay affect a TM in the context of the BBB?

Edited by Copasetic

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Little Fish

Are you asking because you really want to learn about human biology? If so I listed one thing it is essential for a page back.

I have no knowledge of what fluoride is essential for in the human body.

YOU ARE ARGUING THAT A PATHOLOGICAL STATE RELATES TO A NORMAL STATE. IT DOES NOT.

no, I am stating the facts below relate to a normal state of all healthy humans, if it is incorrect then show me.

do you agree or disagree?

The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

Please address the question I asked you. Here they are again;

that is just a smokescreen of questions. it is of no relevance to the above.

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Copasetic

I have no knowledge of what fluoride is essential for in the human body.

I told you, I pointed out one of those reasons earlier in the topic. If you are really interested in learning, you'd go back and look.

You could look into the biochemistry of bone mineralization. If you are interested in learning, I'm sure you'll look into it.

no, I am stating the facts below relate to a normal state of all healthy humans, if it is incorrect then show me.

do you agree or disagree?

The Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) does not protect all of the brain, there are large parts that are not protected by the BBB.

The BBB is not fully developed until late teens. a young teenager's BBB is four times more leaky than an adult's.

The BBB becomes very leaky as you age, particularly in the elderly.

that is just a smokescreen of questions. it is of no relevance to the above.

And yet you said, and I quote; "ok, so you accept that some people with ill functioning BBB such as diabetics (who drink more than most) and those with fevers and certain conditions etc would be affected by toxic fluoride going direct to the brain. that alone is reason enough not to fluoridate, but you didn't address the central points. you are the one who claims to be a medical doctor, so you should know these things."

If you could answer the questions I posted (here they are again; What areas? Where? Which parts of the brain? How does the impact of fenestrations play on movement of things across the BBB? Does fenestration or sinusoid matter? What about diaphragms? Could you discuss the ramifications of different junctional complexes on the BBB? How about protein structure for those complexes; Claudins? Occuldins?

Can you discuss briefly the function of the Choroid plexus? Its relation to the BBB? What about Circumventricular organs? How does changes in the BBB affect thees organs? Infection rates? Toxicology issues?

Can you run us through development of the BBB? What changes occur pre and post puberty? How effective is it in various stages of life (ie; neonates, children, preadolescences etc)?

What is the difference between a "fully developed" and "not fully developed" BBB?

What is a leaky barrier? How does the barrier change? Could you provide a citation to the "4 times more leaky" claim (any format you want is okay, though since we are talking medicine you should probably use AMA 10th edition, no abstract necessary, just the citation please).

How does the BBB become leaky? What physiological or pathophysiological changes cause leakiness? Are some areas more leaky than others? If so why? What is the impact of "leakiness" on different areas of the brain? What about junctional complexes in those areas?

Again, citation please (no abstract necessary, I can look up your reference). Can you explain how it becomes more leaky? Why does aging impact field integrity? How does cell lineage senescence affect the barrier? What morphological changes accompany cellular senescence in the barrier? Changes to junctional complexes? Changes in protein usage?

Can you discuss how variations and genetic differences affect the BBB? How about injuries? Can you discuss how genetic differences affect the zonula occludens? Can you discuss how genetic differences might impact changes in molecular weight or charge for crossing the barrier?

Can you discuss the physiology of transport maximum ( TM) for substances crossing the barrier? How about limitations to the TM? Is this a real or calculable variable? Is it a physiological variable? How might splay affect a TM in the context of the BBB?)

That would give us a better understanding of on what knowledge base you have for the blood brain barrier and (as I'm sure you are already aware) to discuss the points you raised, we would need to address those questions I've listed above. So could you answer the questions and we can discuss the points you raise.

Edited by Copasetic

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Copasetic

I asked you on the other topic Fish, but I think your explanation would be good on this topic as well. I asked you above but you did not answer. Can you please explain who "in the medical establishment" is behind the conspiracy and what "corporate" connections they have? Thanks, I think that would give any objective reader a little better understanding of where you are coming from and where you interests in this topic lay.

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Stellar

F isn't a medication, is a required and essential micronutrient.

Edit: I see HH beat me to it

Same principle applies though, in my belief. And in my opinion, it shouldnt be us that have to go and buy non-fluoridated water, rather, it should be the other way around.

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Little Fish

And yet you said, and I quote; "ok, so you accept that some people with ill functioning BBB such as diabetics (who drink more than most) and those with fevers and certain conditions etc would be affected by toxic fluoride going direct to the brain. that alone is reason enough not to fluoridate, but you didn't address the central points. you are the one who claims to be a medical doctor, so you should know these things."

Yes the BBB breaks down under stress, diabetes, fever, hypertension, injury, etc, so under those conditions the BBB does not protect the brain.

What areas?
the hypothalamus, the pineal gland, pituitary gland, subfornical organ are parts of the brain not protected by the Blood Brain Barrier (BBB) in all of us, healthy or otherwise.

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Little Fish

informative video on fluoridation

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Little Fish

Neurotoxicity of sodium fluoride in rats

Fluoride (F) is known to affect mineralizing tissues, but effects upon the developing brain have not been previously considered. This study in Sprague-Dawley rats compares behavior, body weight, plasma and brain F levels after sodium fluoride (NaF) exposures during late gestation, at weaning or in adults. For prenatal exposures, dams received injections (SC) of 0.13 mg/kg NaF or saline on gestational days 14-18 or 17-19. Weanlings received drinking water containing 0, 75, 100, or 125 ppm F for 6 or 20 weeks, and 3 month-old adults received water containing 100 ppm F for 6 weeks. Behavior was tested in a computer pattern recognition system that classified acts in a novel environment and quantified act initiations, total times and time structures. Fluoride exposures caused sex- and dose-specific behavioral deficits with a common pattern. Males were most sensitive to prenatal day 17-19 exposure, whereas females were more sensitive to weanling and adult exposures. After fluoride ingestion, the severity of the effect on behavior increased directly with plasma F levels and F concentrations in specific brain regions. Such association is important considering that plasma levels in this rat model (0.059 to 0.640 ppm F) are similar to those reported in humans exposed to high levels of fluoride.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7760776

...thus fluoride does cross the Blood Brain Barrier

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