is karma real or a belief?

[SHaYap]

karma is just a flow of consequences, good or bad is up for definition accordingly to individuals involved

your example zen story depicts this very well

you cant say this is my karma because karma is still moving on ... next moment karma might be that

just like a stream of energy it affects everything at every moment

you plug in the tv you get what's on tv, for the radio you get what's on radio

good or bad depends entirely on the moment or how it is received

you plug in a bad tv or a good tv in a bad point, it doesn't matter how good the shows you get bad pictures

then there's the thing of the channels ....

life is a continuous stream of choices

[psychoticmike]

Hey P-Mike , I apologize for not getting back to this post sooner but I've been away for five days .

Numerology clearly shows whether or not we came into this life loaded down with Debt .... However , if you tell a person that they have major sacrifice and upheaval to deal with mostly they want to shoot the messenger .... Nobody wants to hear bad news .

If we came into this life without debt and then cause chaos , then yes I believe that constitutes debt to be eventually faced at some time in the future .

You could ask among your friends if they know of a numerologist in your local area who might look at your birth date free of charge ?..... There are some on line sites that explain how to work out your own chart , but I wouldn't advise putting your personal details out there on the internet .

It's a very brave man who wants to look into his future , I no longer do charts because mostly people don't like hearing the results , my estimation is that 99% of the population has some debt to pay off , but for some unknown reason people only want to hear that they will come into great wealth and face no hardship what so ever ...... Any how I wish you good luck for the future .

thanks for the response yeah sorry it took me so long, been busy! i'm open minded but i don't know about numerology,is it even a real proven science?

[psychoticmike]

thanks for the responses everybody!

[Big Bad Voodoo]

karma is utopia.

if exist then we got another question. sin and punishment.

[libstaK]

karma is utopia.

if exist then we got another question. sin and punishment.

Karma is simple:

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" AND therefore,

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Therefore only I have Karma - everyone else is Karma free or just re-acting to me

I know responsibility bites but It's the road to freedom

As for Sin and Punishment - refer to the above, we can only ever punish ourselves.

[someoldguy]

As I understand karma, it is more or less cause and effect, but on a psychological plane. It's not so much a matter of retribution as it is the idea that virtually everything we do has a consequence. So I don't know if we could call it a belief or even a truth, just more like an observation.

[Paxus]

Hey! I remember this thread!!

Very bad things happen to very good people. How does karma work into that. I personally don't think karma is any more real then having a lucky rabbit's foot or a black cat crossing ones path.

They may have done something bad previously. (When I say previously, this includes in a past life - Aside from that, perhaps the bad thing has nothing to do with any misdeed but is just happening to help the person learn something).

I don't think a rabbit's foot is a good comparison because karma is a lot more fitting (with the laws of the universe, than thinking the foot of a once living creature being lucky).... Cause and effect is a physical law - Occultists oftne say 'As it is above, so it is below' meaning that laws above are similar to laws below. This could be interpreted as I am... (That karma works in our lives just as cause and effect works in physics)

thanks for your input pax! i believe in karma because of what i have been through, and what i have done, sure i have gotten away with a lot of things and at the time was happy and for a while enjoyed myself and everything was going my way, but then i hit a period of my life where it really seemed like it all came back to haunt me. For a while, every positive change i attempted to make in my life, always ended in complete failure. I think karma is real, and that your deeds do not go unpunished, but it affects you in different ways in the future.

You're welcome.

I agree. I also noticed an odd thing in life - what you constantly think about, you draw to yourself. I'm not saying this is any kind of hocus pocus but it is a 'key to life' none the less.

do you think we would have to pay amends if we harmed someone in self defense? what about immaturity? i committed most of these acts in my adolescence, therefor at the time i did not really realize how it affected others and because of how i was treated i did not care, for i felt at the time it was justified.

No. Why would you be punished for defending yourself.

Karma is a perfect system.

If you didn't know what you were doing was wrong, you don't need to suffer for it.

[UFO_Monster]

Somewhat. It's only present on certain days.

[Agent. Mulder]

Karma is simple:

"Every action has an equal and opposite reaction" AND therefore,

"Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"

Therefore only I have Karma - everyone else is Karma free or just re-acting to me

I know responsibility bites but It's the road to freedom

As for Sin and Punishment - refer to the above, we can only ever punish ourselves.

Not quite karma. Thats science, and newtons laws of motion.

[Alienated Being]

There's really no evidence to support such an idea, however, I still believe in karma.

[affinity106]

Better ring the karma police to come straighten this matter out...

[UFO_Monster]

Karma's like the spinner used in the board game "Life." It all depends on where it lands.

[libstaK]

Not quite karma. Thats science, and newtons laws of motion.

Well aren't we ultimate a bunch of particles in motion when we act and create or respond to our "karma".

I know that's realllly simplistic but haven't found a way it doesn't fit in my own experiences yet, so ..

[=Jak=]

Logically karma is complicated. If there is no karma, then no rebirth, this quote says that gud/beginner is sinned and we all adding up the interest?

Otherwise how it started with zero and ending up with zillions.

[Agent. Mulder]

Well aren't we ultimate a bunch of particles in motion when we act and create or respond to our "karma".

I know that's realllly simplistic but haven't found a way it doesn't fit in my own experiences yet, so ..

But with your logic, you can call it anything. Not just karma. Saying "were all particles acting, and thus reacting to circumstances responding to the Reactions of whats going on. Its not karma though. Its a cause and effect, even though terrible people can do terrible things and never face the consequences of it.

[Cryptozological Mascot]

But with your logic, you can call it anything. Not just karma. Saying "were all particles acting, and thus reacting to circumstances responding to the Reactions of whats going on. Its not karma though. Its a cause and effect, even though terrible people can do terrible things and never face the consequences of it.

I love lamp. Lamp is good to me when I turn its knobby. If I don't turn its knobby, then I have bad lamp.

[Mr. Miyagi]

what i mean is, is karma a real phenomenon or does it effect you simply because you believe it exists? i already know the power of the mind, nobody can tell me any different, i know the mind effects psychical objects. I've done many bad things when i was younger, and i feel like I've been paying for it ever since, so my question is, is karma effecting me because i believe in it, and believe it will effect me? if i didn't believe in karma, would it still happen to me, and effect me?

The neat thing about Karma, in a religous sense at any rate, is that it requires zero belief. It isn't a jealous god whom demands your faith. If it does exist it is a natural result of our actions and requires no belief at all. On a practical level, hey it's only natural to feel good when you help others, when you do the right thing. It's also much easier to help someone with such a disposition isn't it? Karma, on physical level, is nothing more than human nature imho.

Sorry if someone has already made this assertion and thanks for reading!

Edited April 6, 2011 by Mr. Miyagi

[libstaK]

But with your logic, you can call it anything. Not just karma. Saying "were all particles acting, and thus reacting to circumstances responding to the Reactions of whats going on. Its not karma though. Its a cause and effect, even though terrible people can do terrible things and never face the consequences of it.

Yep I can and do call it many things cos in the final analysis they all end up boiling down to the same thing,

What goes up must come down, cause and effect, do unto others as you have them do unto you, thou shalt not judge for in whatsoever manner ye judge so shall ye be judged, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth

What goes around, comes around,

The key about Karma and the way I apply it though is this - in my relationship with the world it only ever applies to just me, the world and everything in it, in relation to me is just perfect the way it is.

For example, if I were to suffer hurt emotionally from something someone said, that would be my Karma, I would not believe the person who said what they said was the "cause" I would believe they were the "effect".

The cause is something I would then search for in my own life, unfortunately I am usually able to find days and places where I have firmly planted my foot in my mouth or vented unfairly due to some form of prejudice etc etc et al and therefore know I have faced a piece of my own Karmic Debt. As I also have a belief in re-incarnation I tend to suspend judgement on the more awful things that happen in my life that I haven't been able to see how I could have done myself. I do try to forgive, that really works - (for me, it frees me to move forward-not a spiritual statement here just common sense).

I know how this will be received, please anyone reading remember you are perfect where and how you are, don't throw the baby out with the bath water by streaming examples of murders, rapes and abuses. Like I said, if you want to deal with Karma deal with it only in relation to yourself NOBODY ELSE HAS KARMA or it will only create an insurmountable mountain of belief and counter belief about stuff you can never know enough about in a million lifetimes - or actually 6-7 billion lifetimes if you get what I mean.

Therefore also, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth has commonly been quoted as justification for vengeance against an unkind act. In my view of that issue it is actually a case of, "if I cause harm to someone in any way, I may feel good in that moment but Karma will see that my debt is paid in kind". I would never use that quote in relation to another human being - at least I hope I wouldn't, it would be a failing to me if I did.

[Agent. Mulder]

Again, what youre talking about is cause and effect (for the most part). Not karma though.

[=Jak=]

Kamra known as action, each action has cause and effect?

[Waxman]

Karma does not exist, it is only a illusion created by the human mind to answer why unfavorable events happen to them. It is humanity's last answer in despair as to why chaos happens in this world, why disorder chooses to populate on one person's life than another. However, the principle that guides the belief in karma is true, causality. Cause and Effect. Although we must not think that OUR ACTIONS will have any consequence in our life. Why? Because we are not anymore free to decide for ourselves. We are not given the chance to be the cause, we are already the effect.

Let me give you a classc example:

A man was born very poor

He grew up experiencing hardships and pain and suffering

One day he decided to steal from his neighbor

He was caught by the police

He died in prison

So was his death the karma to his action of stealing? No.

You might think that due to "karma", his act eventually lead to his death. But that is logically wrong. As you can see, he did not contribute to the fact that he was born poor, and that he experienced all forms of problem, so therefore his act was not the Prime Cause why he died in prison (the effect). If he was not born poor, he would not have done the bad deed himself. He would not have acted upon his own desire to survive. The universe lead to this circumstance and he is not responsible for his act, nor his act to his death.

[libstaK]

Again, what youre talking about is cause and effect (for the most part). Not karma though.

Outside of semantics what is the difference when the rules are applied?

[Raptor]

Have children born in to third world countries done anything to deserve orphanage, famine, disease and death?

Have children born in to super rich families done anything to deserve fame, luxury and fortune?

No, there is no such thing as karma, there is only a loosely connected set of fallacies.

[=Jak=]

Any mass belief can make something real, then how could you differentiate REAL? then we need to question the reality

[Mr. Miyagi]

Have children born in to third world countries done anything to deserve orphanage, famine, disease and death?

Have children born in to super rich families done anything to deserve fame, luxury and fortune?

No, there is no such thing as karma, there is only a loosely connected set of fallacies.

I think the honest answer here is I don't know. If karma is more than cause and effect on a spiritual level, who can answer that question of whther it is real or not? However, like I had pointed out earlier, if Karma were to exist, it does not require belief in it. It would only be a natural result of our actions.

I also would like to point out, at least from a Buddhist perspective, that Karma is not viewed as the lone determining factor involved with what social and economic situation a child is born in. It's one of 24 circumstances I think the number is. There are some far more obvious determining factors at work. Such as where the childs parents live and what they do for a living. Of course, some will put more stock in Karma than others. I still hold to the philosophy that it doesn't matter whether one believes in karma or not. Some Buddhists will argue that this is not Samma Ditthi or right view, perfect vision, whatever... I disagree.