Luke Rudkowski confronts Dick Cheney

[Stundie]

Dear oh dear, what can I say. If you think all that makes any sense at all, words fail me.

Well you do suffer with cognitive dissonance, that is evident in every response you make where you ignore important points and find trivial points or make up imaginary points that no one has made, it also the reason why you won't put a time line on the events of Mineta because it will expose you as a complete moron.

If words fail you, that's probably because you failed.

Here's Mineta's own words:

I got to the PEOC and the Vice President was already there. Big conference table, and there are phones all along here. I took a phone and called my office, kept it an open line, and then I took another phone, called FAA -- Federal Aviation Administration Operations Center -- and kept it at open line and kept working the two phones.

Some young man came in and said to the Vice President, "There's a plane 50 miles out coming towards D.C."

Q24 in post #72 clearly times that at 9.30.

Oh dear!! Q24 does not clearly time that at 9:30!!

Are you pretending to be a complete div?? If you read it carefully Q24 clearly states that "The Secret Service timeline does support Mineta’s account:"

That is the Secret Service time line and NOT Q24's time line. If you don't believe me, ask Q24 yourself!

See this is why you are confused and are having trouble with the possibility that Mineta is correct.

Notice the words "The Secret Service timeline" and that should give you a massive ****ing clue! lol

And another thing...

0930 FAA PO advises one of a/c is approaching WDC

Doesn't necessary mean that the plane was first spotted at 9:30 either, it might be the time which that particular SS agent was aware of it.

No doubt you'll ignore everything else I've wrote and bring this point up.

If you want to argue Mineta's timeline, take it up with Q24, because I can't see much point arguing with either of you if your takes on the situation are so different.

Why would I take it up with Q24 when we have no disagreement as far as I can tell. We both support an investigation as we both don't believe the 9/11 commissions version of events.

So don't ask me to take it up with Q24, when it is you that is raising such dishonest objections to the possibility that Mineta's time line of events is correct.

If you want to divert my attention away from yourself, then you could either concede and agree, raise valid objections rather than Wurzel Gummage strawman arguments or keep quiet.

Its quite funny how you ignore everything which highlights how wrong you are and look for a way to weasel out of what you have claimed when you are wrong.

As I said, keep up the charade, you are fooling no one but yourself!!

[flyingswan]

That is the Secret Service time line and NOT Q24's time line. If you don't believe me, ask Q24 yourself!

Of course it's Q24's timeline. All the Secret Service log does is give aircraft times. It's Q24 who makes it Mineta's timeline, by using colour-coding to apply the times to features in Mineta's account.

As your appear unable to post without resorting to insult, you're back on my ignore list.

Edited April 20, 2011 by flyingswan

[sickpuppy]

as long as you're happy and satisfied ..that's all that matters, right swan?

[Stundie]

Of course it's Q24's timeline.

So "The Secret Service Time Line" = Q24's time line??

Please point out to us all in the link where Q24 says it's his time line of events??

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=200702&view=findpost&p=3817626

All the Secret Service log does is give aircraft times.

So why are you trying to equate this to the time that Mineta arrives in the PEOC if that is all it does?? lol

Surely you must realise if that is all it does, then it still fits with Mineta's own account because he says that over hears this conversation after he arrived at the PEOC.

This is absolutely hilarious stuff Swannyboy!! You are debunking yourself!!

It's Q24 who makes it Mineta's timeline, by using colour-coding to apply the times to features in Mineta's account.

Q24 uses the colour coding to show you how it fits with what Mineta was saying about the incoming plane which was 50, 30 and 10 miles out that he overhears the aide updating Cheney about.

That is why Q24 clearly states "The Secret Service timeline does support Mineta’s account" and doesn't use the words that it is his time line.

I tell you what, why not ask him?

As your appear unable to post without resorting to insult, you're back on my ignore list.

Where in the hell did I insult you in that last post?? lol

I tell you what, stick me back on ignore has it is much easier to do that, than answer any of the questions I raise with your logic. Frankly, what is insulting is that you think you think you can fool me and the lurkers with your absurd arguments and reasoning.

But don't get upset when I point out these absurdities to you and the lurkers.

p.s. Any chance of you showings us a time line for Mineta seeing as you seem to think mine and others are wrong?

[flyingswan]

as long as you're happy and satisfied ..that's all that matters, right swan?

At least I'm not the one claiming that the mods here are part of THE CONSPIRACY. If you don't want to encounter opinions like mine, why don't you post on one of the other forums where I'd be banned for expressing opinions against the world of conspiracy theories?

Edited April 22, 2011 by flyingswan

[flyingswan]

who, other than Mineta, reports the "do the orders still stand" conversation?

Came across this, with the conversation attributed to the Flight 93 alarm by Josh Bolten:

KING: That was the plane that slammed the Pentagon. Then, a report of a plane over Pennsylvania headed for Washington. Twice, a military aide asks the vice president for authority to shoot it down.

JOSH BOLTEN, DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: The vice president said, yes, again. And the aide then asked a third time. He said, "just confirming, sir, authority to engage." And the vice president, his voice got a little annoyed then, said, "I said yes."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/14/cp.00.html

[Stundie]

Came across this, with the conversation attributed to the Flight 93 alarm by Josh Bolten:

KING: That was the plane that slammed the Pentagon. Then, a report of a plane over Pennsylvania headed for Washington. Twice, a military aide asks the vice president for authority to shoot it down.

JOSH BOLTEN, DEPUTY WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF: The vice president said, yes, again. And the aide then asked a third time. He said, "just confirming, sir, authority to engage." And the vice president, his voice got a little annoyed then, said, "I said yes."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0209/14/cp.00.html

What does this prove?

That Josh Bolten witnessed an aide asking for authority to engage UA93?? No one is doubting that!! lol

The aide never asks Cheney if the order still stands according to Bolten, he asks for authority to engage and Cheney never says to the aide according to Bolten "Have you heard anything to the contrary?" as Mineta over hears.

2 different conversations which you are desperately trying to equate as the same which clearly aren't.

Edited April 26, 2011 by Stundie

[turbonium]

Mineta says he understood the "orders still stand" to refer to a shoot-down order, which seems reasonable in the circumstances. What do you want it to mean?

I don't "want" it to mean anything, but I do want Cheney held accountable for it.

Btw, I guess you really must "want" it to mean a reasonable comment, no matter how obvious to see that nothing about it is reasonable.

The plane was tracked from (at very least) a distance of 50 miles from the Pentagon. The building's underground bunker is an ideal '9/11 hiding spot' for Cheney, Mineta, and the "young man".

Cheney gets at least 2 more updates on "the plane". The "orders still stand", but Cheney still refuses to explain the purpose of those orders.

No way does this plane fit in with the official story. Among all the planes flying within a 50-mile radius of the Pentagon, they manage to pick out this one specific plane, and know immediately it is a hijacled plane, and that its target is the Pentagon. So from 50 miles out, start tracking this deadly aircraft (now referred to as "the plane") with regular updates Cheney received in the bunker.

A hijacked plane, heading directly toward the Pentagon. How nice of Cheney not to warn the Pentagon that a plane was just about to pulverize them!!

So, is this still a "reasonable" explanation to you?

[flyingswan]

Cheney gets at least 2 more updates on "the plane". The "orders still stand", but Cheney still refuses to explain the purpose of those orders.

It seems all the witnesses, even Mineta, knew what the orders were.

No way does this plane fit in with the official story. Among all the planes flying within a 50-mile radius of the Pentagon, they manage to pick out this one specific plane, and know immediately it is a hijacled plane, and that its target is the Pentagon. So from 50 miles out, start tracking this deadly aircraft (now referred to as "the plane") with regular updates Cheney received in the bunker.

If you'd bothered to read this thread before posting, you'd know that my position is that the reported conversation took place after the orders to ground air traffic, so any remaining incoming aircraft was violating those orders. In addition, the aircraft concerned (Flight 93) had issued a "Mayday", altered course for Washington and turned off its radar transponder. Hardly a difficult guess that it had been hijacked.

Your objections to the logic of the story only apply to the conspiracist alternative timeline in which the incoming aircraft is Flight 77.

A hijacked plane, heading directly toward the Pentagon. How nice of Cheney not to warn the Pentagon that a plane was just about to pulverize them!!

I should be the one rolling my eyes. How exactly is anyone going to work out where in the Washington area an aircraft 50 miles away is aimed at?

[_Colonel_]

If you want evidence that Dick Cheney was in the PEOC before 9:58am, perhaps 10:00, then all you have to do is look at his interview with Tim Russert he gave on the 16th Sept 2001.

He claims he is in the PEOC with Mineta and Rice when he hears of the Pentagon attack. i.e. before 9:58 unless we are to believe that the VP didn't know about the attack on the Pentagon until 20 minutes after the attack and almost 10 minutes after it was confirmed on the news.

This is NOT what Cheney says in the Russert interview. Read it here.

Cheney most clearly say in that interview that he:

1. spoke to the President by phone before he left his office for the PEOC

2. spoke to the President AGAIN in the corridor outside of the PEOC

3. was grabbed by the SS as a direct result of the detection of Flight 77

4. makes reference to 77 hitting the Pentagon before he is inside of the PEOC

Stundie's response to that - Cheney is lying. Never mind the idea that Stundie apparently feels like Cheney was lying all over the place in that interview, but for some reason decided to tell the truth at a point that seems convenient for Stundie's fantasy.

Stundie interprets this lone phrase from that interview:

I had Norm Mineta... I had Condi Rice with me and several of my key staff people....But when I arrived there within a short order, we had word the Pentagon's been hit.

Stundie thinks that phrase indicates that 77 crashed AFTER Cheney entered the PEOC despite the other comments by Cheney about it in the same interview.

In another interview, Rice indicates she learned of the Pentagon crash before she goes to the PEOC. Stundie's response to that - Rice is lying.

Cheney made no such claim that Stundie says. Stundie does not understand the past perfect tense of the English language.

[flyingswan]

Stundie does not understand the past perfect tense of the English language.

Maybe Stundie isn't a native English speaker. I gave up arguing with him because, apart from the stream of insults, he seems completely incapable of understanding the points I make.

[_Colonel_]

Maybe Stundie isn't a native English speaker.

English is his first language. He just never excelled in it. I can't believe after all of these years he is still pushing this Mineta nonsense.

[turbonium]

I should be the one rolling my eyes. How exactly is anyone going to work out where in the Washington area an aircraft 50 miles away is aimed at?

Sure. Who would ever consider the White House to be any more likely a target than...hmm..a WalMart, or a 7/11?

Who really needs a rolling eyes emoticon to see how this is pure nonsense?

[flyingswan]

Sure. Who would ever consider the White House to be any more likely a target than...hmm..a WalMart, or a 7/11?

Who really needs a rolling eyes emoticon to see how this is pure nonsense?

Quite, you were claiming before that it was definitely aimed at the Pentagon, so how come the White House is now the obvious target?

[flyingswan]

Oh dear, it seems that Luke Rudkowski and "We Are Change" have parted company. Something to do with a cover-up of financial irregularities. Not the sort of behaviour one would expect from those dedicated to exposing Truth:

http://redactednews.blogspot.com/2011/02/with-luke-rudowskis-ouster-we-are.html

[Stundie]

Directed from here........Thought I would post this here cause I don't want to be accused of taking the other thread off topic.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=275580&st=315#entry5412362

You are not explaining anything, you just ignore my points and repeat the same claims.

Its been explained to you in this thread.

I've not ignored your points because you have created strawmen.....lol

Like I am suppose to have waved away evidence that Cheney spoke to Bush in the corridor to the PEOC.

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=275580&st=315#entry5409604

Which I didn't.

While you ignore and never address the fact the SS notes show that a plane was 30 and 10 miles out around the time Mineta states.

Although I forget, you don't want to continue this discussion for it might mean you having to shelf your unshakable belief in the OCT. So I'll leave it at that.

[flyingswan]

Like I am suppose to have waved away evidence that Cheney spoke to Bush in the corridor to the PEOC.

http://www.unexplain...15#entry5409604

Which I didn't.

Post #185 above from Colonel lays out the position. You pick a single sentence from Cheney and misinterpret it, nevermind how it is inconsistent with the rest of what Cheney says.

While you ignore and never address the fact the SS notes show that a plane was 30 and 10 miles out around the time Mineta states.

I'm not ignoring it, but it isn't consistent with the rest of Mineta's testimony. Mineta was definitely there for the later Flight 93 countdown, and he only remembers one countdown, one at which Cheney was present, ie after 9:37 on your timeline, so he couldn't have been there for both.

I'm getting tired of having to repeat these facts only for you to ignore them.

[flyingswan]

Dunno who Colonel was, he comes here and makes only two posts, but he must have encountered Stundie somewhere else as he certainly has his number.

Edited January 10, 2015 by flyingswan

[ADDIS77]

Interesting stuff, Little Fish.

The Secret Service timeline does support Mineta's account: -

• 0930 FAA PO advises one of a/c is approaching WDC
  0931 FAA PO advises a/c is 30 miles out from WH
  0934 JOC observes a/c 10 miles out
  0938 a/c crashed into Pentagon
  0940 FAA grounds all domestic flights
  http://bluecollarrep...ce-timeline.pdf
  

But of course flyingswan will say this isn't "real evidence".

No, it doesn't.

It's curious that you left out the 0937 timeline item that says "VP." Why was that?

I'll answer my own question: because the Secret Service has repeatedly claimed that they did not remove Cheney from his office until after 9:30, closer to 9:37 when an aircraft was discovered near Washington DC in most counts I've seen. Why would they make a note of "VP" at 9:37 if Cheney was already in the PEOC?

Do you have any references to the Secret Service claiming they removed Cheney at, say, around 9:10 AM, which is what would be needed for Mineta's 9:20 PEOC arrival timeline to add up?