dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #26 Share Posted February 18, 2011 Maybe I misunderstood your intentions, I'm just so used to people craving the destruction of the Middle-East and slaughter of the muslims, thinking they are all insane and evil terrorists. my intention is debate. nothing more. from the crucible of debate are formed opinions of steel. my opinions are here to be challenged....and changed if incorrect. for example - 10 years ago i was railing against the war in iraq...now i see it as the best action at that moment in time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #27 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) exactly...it's in the arab peoples best interests NOT to attack the west. I believe most if not all middle east nations knows that, it serves no purpose, most western nations also knows that the reverse is also true. Now the crucible of the problem is the MINORITY of both sides. it clearly does not. the west wants a peaceful middle east living with the realities and actualities on the ground now.moaning on about palestine and attacking israel is pointless and self-defeating. Why is palestine not worthy of living on their own land pray tell? Why is attacking israel (in your view) pointless and self-defeating when some of the arabs are also being attacked or oppressed ? *edit* clarity Edited February 18, 2011 by third_eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #28 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I believe most if not all middle east nations knows that, it serves no purpose, most western nations also knows that the reverse is also true. Now the crucible of the problem is the MINORITY of both sides. true. Why is palestine not worthy of living on their own land pray tell? because it isn't their land. there is no / never was any country called palestine. Why is attacking israel (in your view) pointless and self-defeating when some of the arabs are also being attacked or oppressed ? because of israels military power....because of israels alliances...because israel isnt goin away anywhere any time soon. so why attack them? how many of the so-called 'palestinian diaspora' were actually born in the land in question? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #29 Share Posted February 18, 2011 because it isn't their land. there is no / never was any country called palestine. How so ? Even if they were living on that very land for generations ? We cant just pick and choose and disregard what applies or doesn't when it comes to history Palestine (Greek: Παλαιστίνη, Palaistinē; Latin: Palaestina; Hebrew: ארץ־ישראל Eretz-Yisra'el, formerly also פלשׂתינה, Palestina); Arabic: فلسطين Filasṭīn, Falasṭīn, Filisṭīn) was a conventional name, among others, used between 450BCE and 1948AD to describe a geographic region between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River, and various adjoining lands. herebecause of israels military power....because of israels alliances...because israel isnt goin away anywhere any time soon.so why attack them? how many of the so-called 'palestinian diaspora' were actually born in the land in question? I'm not even going to give any credit of attention to the first part of your statement, as for "were actually born in the land in question?" can also apply to the Zionists in realtion to Israel The Romans demolished the temple and Jerusalem, not the Arabs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #30 Share Posted February 18, 2011 How so ? Even if they were living on that very land for generations ? We cant just pick and choose and disregard what applies or doesn't when it comes to history here I'm not even going to give any credit of attention to the first part of your statement, as for "were actually born in the land in question?" can also apply to the Zionists in realtion to Israel The Romans demolished the temple and Jerusalem, not the Arabs but the zionists are there now!!! whats your solution to this issue? i should say that i actually agree with the palestinians from a concpetual pov but reality dictates that their argument is now redundant as they are not in possession of the land nor will they be without such bloodshed as to make the current status quo desirable. there has never ever been a nation state called palestine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #31 Share Posted February 18, 2011 but the zionists are there now!!! whats your solution to this issue? i should say that i actually agree with the palestinians from a concpetual pov but reality dictates that their argument is now redundant as they are not in possession of the land nor will they be without such bloodshed as to make the current status quo desirable. there has never ever been a nation state called palestine. I suffer no grandiose illusions of being capable to offer any solution/s or even if ANYONE have any solution/s it matters nought if the powers that be refuses to see PEACE in the region as the principle priority above ALL else. Its not conceptual for the Palestinians, it is very much the basis of their existence, they have no other choice What defines your principle of "nation" ? The land that they lived on is free to whoever with the military might to come and lay claim to it as and when they wishes ? How would you feel if the home that you have lived in since the days of your great grand parents were suddenly deemed to belong to others because they lay claim to it based on their beliefs that it was promised to them by their god and when you disagree they say "we have more guns than you do so you better listen and get out" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #32 Share Posted February 18, 2011 What defines your principle of "nation" ? The land that they lived on is free to whoever with the military might to come and lay claim to it as and when they wishes ? that's what has taken place on this piece of land since the earliest days of recorded history. i'm not saying that's 'right' that's just the way it is...and always has been. there were no muslims on those lands in the earliest days... the islamic caliphate conquered this region using violence around 1400 years ago...so if you want to talk about generations then how far back would you like to go? How would you feel if the home that you have lived in since the days of your great grand parents were suddenly deemed to belong to others because they lay claim to it based on their beliefs that it was promised to them by their god and when you disagree they say "we have more guns than you do so you better listen and get out" ? that's not what happened tho is it...the arab leaders told the palestinians to leave the land..expecting to then defeat israeli forces and make them leave. things just didnt work out like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #33 Share Posted February 18, 2011 that's what has taken place on this piece of land since the earliest days of recorded history. i'm not saying that's 'right' that's just the way it is...and always has been. there were no muslims on those lands in the earliest days... the islamic caliphate conquered this region using violence around 1400 years ago...so if you want to talk about generations then how far back would you like to go? propaganda and not entirely accurate, you'll have to study the historical texts from BOTH sides and not only the Western documents, the Romans exiled the Jewish population prior to which the Babylonians did too. Yes exactly ... how far back in history would one want to go ? Or when does what matters to whom is regarded as relevant? that's not what happened tho is it...the arab leaders told the palestinians to leave the land..expecting to then defeat israeli forces and make them leave.things just didnt work out like that. Again propaganda and not entirely accurate, sources only from one eye should not make the other blind. Even so if your life were in jeopardy and you left because of fears for your safety does that equates you forfeiting your rights ? Again ... exactly ... things just didn't work out anything like that either for all involved in this predicament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #34 Share Posted February 18, 2011 propaganda and not entirely accurate, you'll have to study the historical texts from BOTH sides and not only the Western documents, the Romans exiled the Jewish population prior to which the Babylonians did too. okay so where do muslims come into the picture? Yes exactly ... how far back in history would one want to go ? Or when does what matters to whom is regarded as relevant? ALL that is relevant is facts on the ground as they are today. Again propaganda and not entirely accurate, sources only from one eye should not make the other blind. lol! my lifes mission is to examine all things from all angles...i could argue from your viewpoint as effectively as you (indeed i did so for years and years)....it's an interesting thought experiment...you wanna try it? you argue my case and i'll argue yours? Even so if your life were in jeopardy and you left because of fears for your safety does that equates you forfeiting your rights ? that's not what happened in 1948 though is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Shadows Posted February 18, 2011 #35 Share Posted February 18, 2011 you claim you examin all angles dekker ? didn't i give you link to this very topic ? few books and such if what you saying is truth you'd see them instead of trying to prove the other side wrong or prove your self right perhaps u need to look back at them and see the mass killing and whole villages destruction happened so things are the way they are now for palestine people common sense and logic speaks is land belonged to those who lived in it since their grandfathers and fathers nation or not that's the excuse that there wasn't palestine nation was there an israel nation ? before 48 ? you claim you examin all sides of story but you only see one check the links you ingnored before if you want if you interested as you say .. you'll take the trouble to get those books i doubt it personally but am giving u what discussions requires source of info it's up to you to analyize it by the way don't act like usually by mocking my country or me it's just reminder am giving you a point .. discuss it .. not me just reminder there's the links 1- Review Of Book by the name of Un-erasing the erasure of Palestine 2- Review Of Book from amazon interesting about second book is the writer is israeli there's also book " The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History by Keith W. Whitelam " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #36 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) okay so where do muslims come into the picture? the people that is now regarded as muslims were always in the picture, or in other words, they were there even before they embraced Islam ALL that is relevant is facts on the ground as they are today. Well need at least years upon years of cross referencing and counter arguments Even if we are both so dedicated I am not an expert to undertake the task lol! my lifes mission is to examine all things from all angles...i could argue from your viewpoint as effectively as you (indeed i did so for years and years)....it's an interesting thought experiment...you wanna try it? you argue my case and i'll argue yours? Perhaps you can but I definitely am unable to be convincing on some of the views you propose as facts and this is only one of the reasons why Rachel_Corrie that's not what happened in 1948 though is it. uhmmm .... I don't understand this comment *edit* inserted link Edited February 18, 2011 by third_eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChewiesArmy Posted February 18, 2011 #37 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) wondered how long it would be before someone with some idea of geo-politics entered the fray. china is co-dependent on the usa in the form of the dollar so i don't believe they would interfere too much as the oil shortage would be as damaging to the currency as the actual effects of oil shortage would be...thereby damaging chinas reserves. russia is unpredictable tho i'd imagine that they could be bought off in some shape..concessions regarding the former soviet republics perhaps? I understand your point. The US is the military power and if some of these changes in the Middle East turn out to take on the Islamic Extremist ideal, then yes, the US is very capable of handling them. But, if the US felt it was forced to take control of the world's oil, regardless of the US/China financial relationship, there would be a WWIII. You are correct that the US dollar is very important to China, this is why China is trying to do everything possible to devalue it. But China's oil consumption is growing exponentially and it is the key factor for them to becoming the superpower they want to be. I believe they would go to war over oil, and Russia would be right behind them. As for Russia... No matter what has happened after the cold war, Russia (namely Putin) still distrusts, and I think dislikes, the US. They to would go to war over oil, but not for the same reasons as China. Not to mention Russia's ally, Iran. The US could handle the Middle East, but it could not handle the Middle East backed by China and/or Russia. Best case scenario, the US gets off of oil or greatly reduces their consumption. No more excuse for Islamic Extremists to harrass the US. Edited February 18, 2011 by ChewiesArmy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #38 Share Posted February 18, 2011 you claim you examin all angles dekker ? didn't i give you link to this very topic ? few books and such if what you saying is truth you'd see them instead of trying to prove the other side wrong or prove your self right perhaps u need to look back at them and see the mass killing and whole villages destruction happened so things are the way they are now for palestine people common sense and logic speaks is land belonged to those who lived in it since their grandfathers and fathers nation or not that's the excuse that there wasn't palestine nation was there an israel nation ? before 48 ? you claim you examin all sides of story but you only see one check the links you ingnored before if you want if you interested as you say .. you'll take the trouble to get those books i doubt it personally but am giving u what discussions requires source of info it's up to you to analyize it by the way don't act like usually by mocking my country or me it's just reminder am giving you a point .. discuss it .. not me just reminder there's the links 1- Review Of Book by the name of Un-erasing the erasure of Palestine 2- Review Of Book from amazon interesting about second book is the writer is israeli there's also book " The Invention of Ancient Israel: The Silencing of Palestinian History by Keith W. Whitelam " okay - for the sake of argument (a lot of material in those books is inaccurate...as is the israeli version in all fairness) lets just say i accept everything written. it doesn't change a thing! you can moan on about this til the end of days but that helps no-one.... why doesn't syria give the palestinians a place to live? why doesn't iraq? saudia arabia? these countries have huge uninhabited areas....if the arabs are so concerned about fellow arabs lives then why not take them in and make them citizens? let's be honest - isreal is never going to give the palestinians what they want...and the palestinians quality of life is what should really be paramount here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #39 Share Posted February 18, 2011 I understand your point. The US is the military power and if some of these changes in the Middle East turn out to take on the Islamic Extremist ideal, then yes, the US is very capable of handling them. But, if the US felt it was forced to take control of the world's oil, regardless of the US/China financial relationship, there would be a WWIII. You are correct that the US dollar is very important to China, this is why China is trying to do everything possible to devalue it. But China's oil consumption is growing exponentially and it is the key factor for them to becoming the superpower they want to be. I believe they would go to war over oil, and Russia would be right behind them. As for Russia... No matter what has happened after the cold war, Russia (namely Putin) still distrusts, and I think dislikes, the US. They to would go to war over oil, but not for the same reasons as China. Not to mention Russia's ally, Iran. The US could handle the Middle East, but it could not handle the Middle East backed by China and/or Russia. Best case scenario, the US gets off of oil or greatly reduces their consumption. No more excuse for Islamic Extremists to harrass the US. agreed. energy self-suficiency is a priority. i'm not sure that your scenarios above would take place...i could see a sino-us pact on this...whatever else the chinese are their pragmatism always shines thru and they are nowhere near ready to take on the us militarily. but pure speculation really... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Shadows Posted February 18, 2011 #40 Share Posted February 18, 2011 you have any idea how many palestine in syria ? iraqies ? to the level syrian economy went down hill and no more can be taken there's palestinians scattard all middle east plus iraqies where do you think palestinins went ? dissappeared ? they're all over middle east and if what you saying about israel is correct then only force is the way to take back something taken by force then unfortunaly the only solution is war against israel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #41 Share Posted February 18, 2011 the people that is now regarded as muslims were always in the picture,or in other words, they were there even before they embraced Islam unless arabs live for 100's of years these aren't the same people! we're all born innocent my friend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #42 Share Posted February 18, 2011 you have any idea how many palestine in syria ? iraqies ? to the level syrian economy went down hill and no more can be taken there's palestinians scattard all middle east plus iraqies where do you think palestinins went ? dissappeared ? they're all over middle east and if what you saying about israel is correct then only force is the way to take back something taken by force then unfortunaly the only solution is war against israel and so the thread comes back full circle. if the only option is war then it's a war the arabs will lose and lose badly. the whole of the middle east will look like palestine. i mean that not as threat nor promise....it's simply what will happen. saudi arabia is a vastly wealthy country...why would they not take the palestinians in? i know the answer...and i know you won't state it....so i'll say it for you - because they would politically and culturally destabilise the country...so they don't want the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Shadows Posted February 18, 2011 #43 Share Posted February 18, 2011 why take them in ???! they have their own country ? take them just to make israel comfortable ? your nighbors would take you to their home if some attacked your home ? and took over it ?! and you'll be ok .. i'll live there ? no way their lands will get back to them eventally israel couldn't get in lebanon fighting small militia although they destroyed half lebanon but didn't set foot inside small milita kept them out imagin thousands of those militia .. war with israel won't be straight war it'll be gurilla tactics Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #44 Share Posted February 18, 2011 (edited) and so the thread comes back full circle. if the only option is war then it's a war the arabs will lose and lose badly. the whole of the middle east will look like palestine. i mean that not as threat nor promise....it's simply what will happen. saudi arabia is a vastly wealthy country...why would they not take the palestinians in? i know the answer...and i know you won't state it....so i'll say it for you - because they would politically and culturally destabilise the country...so they don't want the problem. that's the reason the Jews were promised their promise land and disregarding the rights the people already living peacefully there ? What's so wrong about the Palestinians wanting their homeland back ? I think you missed this link in the edit of my previous post Rachel Corrie I'm not sure that your scenarios above would take place...i could see a sino-us pact on this...whatever else the chinese are their pragmatism always shines thru and they are nowhere near ready to take on the us militarily. They don't have to Edited February 18, 2011 by third_eye Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #45 Share Posted February 18, 2011 that's the reason the Jews were promised their promise land and disregarding the rights the people already living peacefully there ? i'm confused by what you mean there... What's so wrong about the Palestinians wanting their homeland back? other than the fact that they patently won't get it back nothing but that wasn't the question...why won't another arab or muslim country take them in if it is the palestinians welfare that is most important. I think you missed this link in the edit of my previous post Rachel Corrie i know all about rachel corrie...what is your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #46 Share Posted February 18, 2011 why take them in ???! to improve the welfare of fellow arabs / muslims. they have their own country ? no they don't nor have they ever had. take them just to make israel comfortable ? no just to make their (the palestinians) lives better, your nighbors would take you to their home if some attacked your home ? and took over it ?! and you'll be ok .. i'll live there ? no way that isn't what happened is it. their lands will get back to them eventally no they won't....certainly not in our lifetimes....so isn't it better to resettle them elsewhere...i'm not justifying israeli actions...i'm tryin to be pragmatic. israel couldn't get in lebanon fighting small militia although they destroyed half lebanon but didn't set foot inside small milita kept them out ermmm...they did indeed get into Lebanon. imagin thousands of those militia .. war with israel won't be straight warit'll be gurilla tactics then also imagine mushroom clouds over tehran and damascus....because these 'guerillas' will be getting them weaponry from somewhere and israel will not sit idly by when they are being attacked....and nor should they. your concern for the palestinians is touching but it's false else their welfare would trump your obvious hatred of israel. do you accept the point that arab rulers are far more likely to have been responsible for the oppression or arabs since 1948 than any Israeli has ever been?? is it even worth pointing that out to you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #47 Share Posted February 18, 2011 i'm confused by what you mean there... i know all about rachel corrie...what is your point? exactly, you've made our point quite clearly other than the fact that they patently won't get it back nothing but that wasn't the question...why won't another arab or muslim country take them in if it is the palestinians welfare that is most important. because JUSTICE is also important Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dekker87 Posted February 18, 2011 Author #48 Share Posted February 18, 2011 exactly, you've made our point quite clearly your point seems to be 'we hate israel' and nothing deeper. you don't show concern for the palestinians...you simply enjoy your feelings of self-righteousness regardin israel. not once in this thread have you shown any worry for the palestinians other than in relation to the israelis 'theft' of 'palestine'. strange attitude towards one's own people...especially when thrown into relief next to the israeli policy of accepting jewish immigration from anywhere. why do jews look after their own but arabs and muslims just whine and moan and blame someone else whilst all the time achieving nothing? because JUSTICE is also important so you're quite happy for palestinians to continue to suffer for the next 200 years...whole generations living and dying in degraded circumstances....as long as justice is done eventually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted February 18, 2011 #49 Share Posted February 18, 2011 again you've made the veracity of my points for me, I don't HATE Israel, I don't agree with the Zionist policies regarding the legality of the Palestine State the bitterness is entirely yours and you're welcome to them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Of Shadows Posted February 18, 2011 #50 Share Posted February 18, 2011 see every one speak for justice is hateer for israel for him but when he talk **** about arabs it's not hatred it's facts to him and every time it circles around and turn things saying arab opressed for the thousand time we can say if we're opressed you just worry about your self leave worrying about us for us unless if you think we are unable mentally and dont have intellegence to make our decisions ? do you ? like i said ... dekker it's all wrapped in the fact you don't know a thing of what you talk about you call arabs opressed and bla bla bla .. you're not arab we can talk for our self thank u ? all your points are twisted in favor of israel take palestinian other place give them some where in arabic countries why not take israel out ? you so one sided ? didn't answer me .. where was israel nation before 48 ? i can use the same stupid game you use of the nation if palestinians don't have the right to the land neither does israel although in those books you were so quickly to dismiss " which shows you just wanna aruge , and proved false to claim you examin all sides of story " there's proof of palestine existence in that land since the dawn of times but again you're on sided on point views there for you won't ever see the complete pic from one side palestinian aren't going anywhere to make israel feel like home coz they're aren't at home and neither welcome by their neighbors but i can see the weakness of your argument dismissing what you don't like and ignore the rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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