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Persia

We can't cut education

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zenfahr

school should be more individualized. which means more teachers. which probable means less pay, unless we cut the pay of the education bosses in washington.

i mean i was so bored in high school i was doing my homework well in my other classes. the only two classes i didnt do that in was english and gym. i still have problems in english, as you can probable tell by my writing.

you seem like you speak very well daniel, now lets see you do some push ups young man!!!

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Wookietim

He did support many ideas of mine. Yet he did disagree with me also. That is the point of working towards the middle. I believe that many of these beefs on this topic has just been for the sake of argument. That is what the left and the right do the best .. :hmm:

However I have seen that all of us agree that something needs to be done with our education system and that is a positive!!! We can no longer sit back and let ignorance control our children. Just cannot do this. I agree with you. Spend the same amount "IF NOT MORE" .. yet more wisely and let those with doctorates in education do what they have spent decades doing ... teach our children. Not the government!!!

I also agree .. no I am in fact stating this. There has been a curse put on those who want to teach. Many are scared to death with teaching.

Resources for our children. Here in Kentucky we have wonderful ways of resourcing our children. Those who are poor get their books, their paper, their toothpaste .. even their shoes from our resource centers. When I was in school years ago if children wore broken shoes to school .. nothing was done. More money needs to go into this wonderful program!!! If a child does not feel compfort then that child will not accomplish what he or she could.

Again from reading all the posts I do not agree that he, they or others disagree with you. Just arguments for the sake of arguing. Again we all see the need for a more wise, educated approach to education. For me this is just from past topics where we plainly just argue with the other side and do not read their posts.

Another problem ... with education dems have had control over this for awhile. This frightens conservatives. And it should. A more balanced approach .. "moderate" approach is needed. No reason for one side to own our children. That is a very strong power for them to do so. What needs to be done is for our government to take a vacation. Paying outragious prices for books, paper, paper clips etc ... needs to go the way of the Dodo Bird. Common sense needs to be brought back into our school systems.

Probably will be my last post on this matter .. I hope instead of arguing that many have taken at least a small glance with my "opinions" .. and "facts". My fellow teachers .. my proffesors .. classmates in college .. we almost all agree with the simple changes that would improve our educational system. We also agree here that things need to be changed. So instead of arguing for argument sake, lets put our heads together. For once work together. We teachers vote both left and right ... we agree about what needs to be done.

For once in our countries life ... Damn!!! I have argued and agreed with both sides of this issue. I have been nominated for Kentuckies teacher of the year. I love my students. Let us for once work together!!!!!!! :tu:

Edited to state that my last few sentences was a bit cocky. Yes I have been nominated for teacher of the year. Yes I have served on many school councils. Yet as far as teacher of the year ... maybe in my 40's this will happen. I do not have all the answers, yet I have a common sense approach to this matter a very caring approach to this matter. Until we unite ... we will be divided!!!

Simply put, there is no middle here. Students don't learn better by providing fewer resources. Teachers don't teach better by paying them less. Schools don't function better with less money and bigger classes. Those things are common sense. And Daniels attitude of the govt being evil overlords that are out to destroy things is simplistic in the extreme.

We can move money around - there are places where the current amounts of money are not needed. But that is not reducing spending on education - that is essentially staying the same but putting money in different places. Daniel and the conservative right are looking for a silver bullet that will fix everything - and right now their silver bullet is a bit of bumper sticker logic that says "Govt is evil. Get govt out." - which is rather simple minded and less than helpful in addressing a complex set of problems facing education today.

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danielost

Simply put, there is no middle here. Students don't learn better by providing fewer resources. Teachers don't teach better by paying them less. Schools don't function better with less money and bigger classes. Those things are common sense. And Daniels attitude of the govt being evil overlords that are out to destroy things is simplistic in the extreme.

We can move money around - there are places where the current amounts of money are not needed. But that is not reducing spending on education - that is essentially staying the same but putting money in different places. Daniel and the conservative right are looking for a silver bullet that will fix everything - and right now their silver bullet is a bit of bumper sticker logic that says "Govt is evil. Get govt out." - which is rather simple minded and less than helpful in addressing a complex set of problems facing education today.

students do not learn better if you cut or increase resources. some students will learn better if left alone, and others will learn better with someone sitting on their shoulder.

teachers will not teach better with more pay or less pay. teachers will teach better if we get out of their way.

one day when i was working at burger king, one of the owners got in my way. thinking he would get out of the way, i asked him to help me. he didnt get out of the way per say, he jumped on the other board and helped make sandwiches. my manager chewed me out later for asking him to help. no i didnt explain to her what my motive was when i asked him to help. the point is if someone in washington is making the rules for a teacher in alaska how does that help her teach her class. it doesnt. if washington wants to help, pay the money and keep their mouths shut.

some students need to held back, some dont, some need to be skipped ahead. the only one who can even begin to guess which is which is the teacher who has been teaching them all year. mom and dad should know too but only if they have been doing their jobs.

a teacher should not be highly paid babysitter. a term that they started to use in the nineties.

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danielost

you seem like you speak very well daniel, now lets see you do some push ups young man!!!

i cant due to my ankles. unless you cant girl push ups. but those dont do me much good.

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Wookietim

students do not learn better if you cut or increase resources. some students will learn better if left alone, and others will learn better with someone sitting on their shoulder.

teachers will not teach better with more pay or less pay. teachers will teach better if we get out of their way.

one day when i was working at burger king, one of the owners got in my way. thinking he would get out of the way, i asked him to help me. he didnt get out of the way per say, he jumped on the other board and helped make sandwiches. my manager chewed me out later for asking him to help. no i didnt explain to her what my motive was when i asked him to help. the point is if someone in washington is making the rules for a teacher in alaska how does that help her teach her class. it doesnt. if washington wants to help, pay the money and keep their mouths shut.

some students need to held back, some dont, some need to be skipped ahead. the only one who can even begin to guess which is which is the teacher who has been teaching them all year. mom and dad should know too but only if they have been doing their jobs.

a teacher should not be highly paid babysitter. a term that they started to use in the nineties.

Again - there is not a single student in the entire country or world that will learn better in the absence of any resources to use to learn with. Teachers will certainly not teach better for less pay. I have no idea where you got the notion that students can learn in a vacuum of resources.

Explain to me how a student can learn to read better with less books. Let's start there - explain that. If you can find a way to justify that, then we can go on to the question of why you think paying teachers less will somehow make them teach better.

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danielost

Again - there is not a single student in the entire country or world that will learn better in the absence of any resources to use to learn with. Teachers will certainly not teach better for less pay. I have no idea where you got the notion that students can learn in a vacuum of resources.

Explain to me how a student can learn to read better with less books. Let's start there - explain that. If you can find a way to justify that, then we can go on to the question of why you think paying teachers less will somehow make them teach better.

i don't know where you got the idea you have to burrow them in resources.

it is time for you to answer a question. how much of the money that goes to the department of education actually makes it to the students and teachers.

when you donate money to a charity, the best you can expect to actually get to those in need is 20%. that means the charity staff gets 80% or more depending on the company. i used to think this was a bad thing, but lately i have realized that the staff needs to get paid to take care of their families too.

but, in the case of the department of education, the bosses in Washington are getting rich well the teachers are, as you say, doing without. they don't even have enough money to buy a cup of coffee, isn't that right.

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Ignus Fatuus

as i said, my last english teacher had to grade me seperate from the rest of the class due to my high grades. which is funny since that is the one subject i struggled with since 2nd grade.

i found out years later why i had problems in gym, my bad ankles. but i agree gym is important to help kids stay healthy and maybe burn off some of that energy that builds up in the other classes.

i think we really too much on drugs, legal or illegal. i see that the teacher thinks classes are not too big but she needs some help.

Ya know physical education has almost been entirely elimanated in elementary schools here in Kentucky. Kids so obese that they cant even fit in their chairs and also proven facts that state that physical movement conditions the mind to work better. Another ... educational lord ignorance movement.

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Ignus Fatuus

Simply put, there is no middle here. Students don't learn better by providing fewer resources. Teachers don't teach better by paying them less. Schools don't function better with less money and bigger classes. Those things are common sense. And Daniels attitude of the govt being evil overlords that are out to destroy things is simplistic in the extreme.

We can move money around - there are places where the current amounts of money are not needed. But that is not reducing spending on education - that is essentially staying the same but putting money in different places. Daniel and the conservative right are looking for a silver bullet that will fix everything - and right now their silver bullet is a bit of bumper sticker logic that says "Govt is evil. Get govt out." - which is rather simple minded and less than helpful in addressing a complex set of problems facing education today.

Here we have a middle. Classes are set up where higher achieving children are in certain classes, the lowest are put in classes such as mine and then we have our middle. The ones with the bullies. It does well in certain ways, wrong in others.

Students do not learn better by fewer resources .. agreed.

Teachers do not teach better by less pay .. agreed.

Schools do not function better with larger classes .. agreed.

Yet the government should just stick to finances, not the overall curriculum.

Government does have a roll in our educational system ... yet unfortunately they have just taken control.

Both of you in my opinion are wrong and right. We have a regional teachers meeting early next April. I am sure that these same things will again be brought up. They always are!!! :yes:

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Wookietim

Here we have a middle. Classes are set up where higher achieving children are in certain classes, the lowest are put in classes such as mine and then we have our middle. The ones with the bullies. It does well in certain ways, wrong in others.

Students do not learn better by fewer resources .. agreed.

Teachers do not teach better by less pay .. agreed.

Schools do not function better with larger classes .. agreed.

Yet the government should just stick to finances, not the overall curriculum.

Government does have a roll in our educational system ... yet unfortunately they have just taken control.

Both of you in my opinion are wrong and right. We have a regional teachers meeting early next April. I am sure that these same things will again be brought up. They always are!!! :yes:

Tell me - what exactly do you teach?

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AROCES

Teachers do not teach better by less pay .. agreed.

A Teacher will teach better with more pay?

Does one not get better or not do what they are capable of just because there are those who say they deserve more?:blink:

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Harte

Kids are seldom more educated than the dedication of the parents to education.

Give this man a cigar.

Or whatever he wants.

Harte

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Ignus Fatuus

Tell me - what exactly do you teach?

I teach children with Learning Behavior Disorders or for short LBD. These are the children who may excell in many subjects and just have a problem with reading or math. Or have disorders such as Dyslexia or Dysgraphia. For many of them the "behavior" comes from a childs unwant to fail. This is why I take them to a smaller classroom for more one on one teaching.

FMD .. are kids who have a full handicap, such as autism or they are mentally retarded. I have taught this subject as well.

EBD are Emotional Behavior Disorders. Children who have extreme behavior issues.

These are the three special education classes which a child could be diagnosed with.

For my students however I pull them into my small classroom for two subjects as stated .. math and reading. Social Studies, Science, Art, PE, Technology, Home Economics I simply accompay them to help those teachers with my students. I teach the basics and am in charge of their IEP or Idividual Educational Plan.

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Ignus Fatuus

A Teacher will teach better with more pay?

Does one not get better or not do what they are capable of just because there are those who say they deserve more?:blink:

A few teachers believe they deserve more. For me and with my salary since I have my masters I no longer need any further graduate education ... and get two and a half months off for the summer.

You will never hear me grip about being payed too little. Yet beggining teachers are payed too little. On top of that they have to pay thousand of dollars during night classes or the summer to further their education. During these four or five years most struggle to make it month to month .. as I did years ago.

Yet with tenure and a masters after those 4-5 years everything is wonderful!!! For many teachers however those 4-5 years being payed 30 grand or less and having to pay thousands for graduate school ... it burns them out. Even if they love teaching they look elsewhere for better pay. Like many who change jobs and work for the state. State jobs give them not only extra money, yet they do not have to pay out of their pocket to keep their job.

For any teacher out there ... keep with it!!! After your rank II or master degree you will be payed well. I believe for most, they just do not have the patience. Very sad!!!

An edited ... "VERY SAD"!!! Maybe if the state gave graduates grants to pay off later after their masters things could be different. Yet I have seen many teachers who could not even afford their appartment at the end of the year. Stress on teachers causes them to fail. Again if they stick with it ... they will be quite OK. Know I am!!! :tu:

Edited by Ignus Fatuus

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Wookietim

I teach children with Learning Behavior Disorders or for short LBD. These are the children who may excell in many subjects and just have a problem with reading or math. Or have disorders such as Dyslexia or Dysgraphia. For many of them the "behavior" comes from a childs unwant to fail. This is why I take them to a smaller classroom for more one on one teaching.

FMD .. are kids who have a full handicap, such as autism or they are mentally retarded. I have taught this subject as well.

EBD are Emotional Behavior Disorders. Children who have extreme behavior issues.

These are the three special education classes which a child could be diagnosed with.

For my students however I pull them into my small classroom for two subjects as stated .. math and reading. Social Studies, Science, Art, PE, Technology, Home Economics I simply accompay them to help those teachers with my students. I teach the basics and am in charge of their IEP or Idividual Educational Plan.

Just curious - thanks for telling me!

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Wookietim

A Teacher will teach better with more pay?

Does one not get better or not do what they are capable of just because there are those who say they deserve more?:blink:

Hmmm... Tell me something : Why does a company pay a CEO more than they would make if they were a janitor if it is not to spur them towards doing better at their job?

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Ignus Fatuus

Just curious - thanks for telling me!

No problem ... plus your question was valid.

Look up into that EBD class scene!!! That is the hardest of any education position to teach!!! Very few know how much more money these teachers deserve. Stabbed with pencils .. kicked in the face .. spit on .. once before graduating and substituting in an EBD class I even saw a middle school girl pee in her assistant teachers purse and them flash everything she had to the whole world ... :w00t: ... well maybe no woot!!!

I would do much ... yet that is one class which would give me a heart attack!!! :yes:

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Wookietim

No problem ... plus your question was valid.

Look up into that EBD class scene!!! That is the hardest of any education position to teach!!! Very few know how much more money these teachers deserve. Stabbed with pencils .. kicked in the face .. spit on .. once before graduating and substituting in an EBD class I even saw a middle school girl pee in her assistant teachers purse and them flash everything she had to the whole world ... :w00t: ... well maybe no woot!!!

I would do much ... yet that is one class which would give me a heart attack!!! :yes:

So, let's continue with Aroces suggestion: Will you teach better if you are paid less? Will you teach better if you have less book, pencils, or things to wipe up pee with?

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Ignus Fatuus

So, let's continue with Aroces suggestion: Will you teach better if you are paid less? Will you teach better if you have less book, pencils, or things to wipe up pee with?

I have tenure ... my wages are set. Yet I would quite if I was payed less!!!

I agree with Aroces on many things .. paying teachers less??? Nope!!! Spending money more wisely??? You bet!!!!

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Wookietim

I have tenure ... my wages are set. Yet I would quite if I was payed less!!!

I agree with Aroces on many things .. paying teachers less??? Nope!!! Spending money more wisely??? You bet!!!!

Mark my words - if the conservative right wing of this country has their way, "Tenure" will mean nothing. You will be paid roughly half what you are now... in order to make sure that we don't have to reduce military spending one iota.

Point blank - the conservatives in this country (Not the real ones - the ones that grew out of William F Buckley and Barry Goldwater, but the new ones - the ones that grew out of Palin and Glenn Beck) want to privatize education. They honestly, deep down, do not believe that the poor ought to have a right to an education. I know that many will try to disagree with me, but we all know that is the ultimate goal of this.

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ninjadude

but, in the case of the department of education, the bosses in Washington are getting rich

What evidence do you have of this? Do you even know that the the Dept of Ed does? I've posted it on UM before and discussion ends. Rather quickly.

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AROCES

What evidence do you have of this? Do you even know that the the Dept of Ed does? I've posted it on UM before and discussion ends. Rather quickly.

Then what are they good for?

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danielost

I have tenure ... my wages are set. Yet I would quite if I was payed less!!!

I agree with Aroces on many things .. paying teachers less??? Nope!!! Spending money more wisely??? You bet!!!!

here is a question, if you were paid more would you teach better.

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Wookietim

here is a question, if you were paid more would you teach better.

Ahh - but Daniel - this is not about spending more. This discussion is about spending less.

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AROCES

here is a question, if you were paid more would you teach better.

Maybe the first few paycheck, then you become who you are.

Ahh - but Daniel - this is not about spending more. This discussion is about spending less.

For spending more have the same result.

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ninjadude

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