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Persia

We can't cut education

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Wookietim

fine but you know i am right.

Actually I am certain you are right - far right.

However whether you are correct is another matter.

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Rafterman

In New York State we spend approximately $18,000 per student.

In Colorado they spend $8,000 per student

Guess which state ranks higher in student performance?

Money isn't the issue.

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Ignus Fatuus

In New York State we spend approximately $18,000 per student.

In Colorado they spend $8,000 per student

Guess which state ranks higher in student performance?

Money isn't the issue.

No money is the issue ... if only our education "lords" could act like they have some cents. ;)

Another reason I wanted to bring up the stupidity and unbalanced nature of our testing system. I live in a county where the bluegrass plains meet the Appalachian Mountains. Very steep hills make for dangerous conditions with snow. This winter we missed a total of 29 days due to snow. The schools just to our west in Lexington Kentucky missed 2 days due to snow. We are due to take our test at the same time schools in Lexington will.

So ... with 27 more days of instruction who will be more prepared for that test??? If our students do not measure up on their scores our county school system loses a lot of money. Talk about stupid. Most of our finances come from success on that one test.

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danielost

No money is the issue ... if only our education "lords" could act like they have some cents. ;)

Another reason I wanted to bring up the stupidity and unbalanced nature of our testing system. I live in a county where the bluegrass plains meet the Appalachian Mountains. Very steep hills make for dangerous conditions with snow. This winter we missed a total of 29 days due to snow. The schools just to our west in Lexington Kentucky missed 2 days due to snow. We are due to take our test at the same time schools in Lexington will.

So ... with 27 more days of instruction who will be more prepared for that test??? If our students do not measure up on their scores our county school system loses a lot of money. Talk about stupid. Most of our finances come from success on that one test.

which is why no public school wastes its time anymore teaching. just like on here people get insulted when they find out that i do understand something and still stand against them. happened on this thread and most of the others.

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Ignus Fatuus

which is why no public school wastes its time anymore teaching. just like on here people get insulted when they find out that i do understand something and still stand against them. happened on this thread and most of the others.

I have had disagreements with you in the past yet many times I agree with your viewpoints. Our current educational system is busted.

Seems that people have argued many points on this topic yet we all seem to agree that our educational system is screwed. I am with you on the government issue. It seems that they want our children to be taught in a matter much like the Borg from Star Trek with like minded thinkers. Control your thoughts and control the sheep. That is the problem. Those who think outside of the box have always made the difference in our history. Now we have developed a system that has made teachers like myself the only proffesionals who are told what to do.

For this reason most teachers presently do not make it five years before they switch jobs getting out of teaching. This being many of our finest teachers. THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!! Our star teachers are now working state jobs, selling houses, making more money than they could teaching. Thus with a teacher shortage people are teaching subjects that they were not trained for. Causing them to make much less money than they should. It is almost like all this was planned.

Our children do not deserve this ... this is not a problem that cannot be solved. Yet it seems that our educational lords do not want it to be solved. Force people to be ignorant and you can more easily control them. This has been a theme throughout history. Seems that history yet again is being repeated.

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danielost

I have had disagreements with you in the past yet many times I agree with your viewpoints. Our current educational system is busted.

Seems that people have argued many points on this topic yet we all seem to agree that our educational system is screwed. I am with you on the government issue. It seems that they want our children to be taught in a matter much like the Borg from Star Trek with like minded thinkers. Control your thoughts and control the sheep. That is the problem. Those who think outside of the box have always made the difference in our history. Now we have developed a system that has made teachers like myself the only proffesionals who are told what to do.

For this reason most teachers presently do not make it five years before they switch jobs getting out of teaching. This being many of our finest teachers. THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM!!! Our star teachers are now working state jobs, selling houses, making more money than they could teaching. Thus with a teacher shortage people are teaching subjects that they were not trained for. Causing them to make much less money than they should. It is almost like all this was planned.

Our children do not deserve this ... this is not a problem that cannot be solved. Yet it seems that our educational lords do not want it to be solved. Force people to be ignorant and you can more easily control them. This has been a theme throughout history. Seems that history yet again is being repeated.

education is one of the ways to control people. the other two is force and food or lack there of. education is the best of the three, that is everyone is educated into compliance, and you can look for those few bright ones whom can help you control others.

just so people understand education in my opinion is one of the two most important things to pay for. but you cant fix a problem by throwing more money at it. you have to fix the problem and then see how much money you need to throw at it. right now education in this country is as bad as all of the other program in this country a black hole. money goes in but nothing comes out,

Edited by danielost

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Ignus Fatuus

education is one of the ways to control people. the other two is force and food or lack there of. education is the best of the three, that is everyone is educated into compliance, and you can look for those few bright ones whom can help you control others.

just so people understand education in my opinion is one of the two most important things to pay for. but you cant fix a problem by throwing more money at it. you have to fix the problem and then see how much money you need to throw at it. right now education in this country is as bad as all of the other program in this country a black hole. money goes in but nothing comes out,

Sad and sorry yet I have to agree with you. Also agree that education should be given more attention than any other aspect of our country. Education is the future. Screw up education and you screw up our countries future. Money is not the issue at hand. Our system is screwed. I wish I could let you see all the false concepts in our textbooks these days. So many things taken out or lied about. I am a democrat, yet I am not an extremist. Dems have control over what is put in our textbooks and let me tell you ... Pinnochio is p***ed because he has to have a nose that grows.

Money goes in ... yet nothing makes any "cents". For me so much could be cut and put into technology and this would save so many problems. Textbooks need to go the way of the Dodo Bird. If we are paying per student 600 dollars every three years for textbooks then we can afford to buy a laptop for every student and put the info on that computer. I have no fellow teachers that disagree with this. Yet the textbook folks have a monopoly on us and too much money is payed. It is a lose, lose situation. Textbooks with false statements that costs us taxpayers more money than people understand. Simply a sham and a shame!!!

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preacherman76

And looking at the logical progression of the US staying about the same and other countries constantly improving would have nothing to do with that, right?

What do you mean "we have stayed the same"? We are falling like a rock.

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Ignus Fatuus

What do you mean "we have stayed the same"? We are falling like a rock.

Our nations test scores as with here in Kentucky have steadily risen the past many years. What has went the way of the Dodo Bird is vocational studies and common sense.

Yet I have to agree with you in comparison with other countries. Seems that we are falling like a rock. Becoming as dumb as a rock. Somewhere right now a rock is speaking, screaming in anger. "Dont correlate we rocks with the United States current education system"!!! <_<

The first step is to get rid of a standardized test or "multiple guess" test. Everyone has at least a 25 percent chance of answering any question correctly. As students shout ... when in doubt pencil in C. Pathetic. Get rid of that test and give the power of educating our children back to the proffessionals, being teachers. Back to the basics of reading, math and science. Back to knowing that not every student is capable of going to college. When teachers are forced into teaching each and every student the same ... even autistic or mentally retarted children "who will not be going to college". How stupid can it get???

Just like before I obtained my degree and taught the special needs class FMD in High School here. What was to be taught that day??? The Boers chemical chart. Electrons, Neutrons the math behind it. How many people here believe they understood one thing at the end of that lesson??? :no:

Politicians have hijacked our education system. I say we toss them into hell!!!

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FurthurBB

What do you mean "we have stayed the same"? We are falling like a rock.

My kids learn way more than I learned at their age at the exact same school, but when in England they are teaching organic chemistry to 6th graders, how can we compete with that right now? We have actually greatly improved our education, but not at near the rate other countries have. I mean, logically, statistically, we are falling behind, but we have not gone backward.

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FurthurBB

Our nations test scores as with here in Kentucky have steadily risen the past many years. What has went the way of the Dodo Bird is vocational studies and common sense.

Yet I have to agree with you in comparison with other countries. Seems that we are falling like a rock. Becoming as dumb as a rock. Somewhere right now a rock is speaking, screaming in anger. "Dont correlate we rocks with the United States current education system"!!! <_<

The first step is to get rid of a standardized test or "multiple guess" test. Everyone has at least a 25 percent chance of answering any question correctly. As students shout ... when in doubt pencil in C. Pathetic. Get rid of that test and give the power of educating our children back to the proffessionals, being teachers. Back to the basics of reading, math and science. Back to knowing that not every student is capable of going to college. When teachers are forced into teaching each and every student the same ... even autistic or mentally retarted children "who will not be going to college". How stupid can it get???

Just like before I obtained my degree and taught the special needs class FMD in High School here. What was to be taught that day??? The Boers chemical chart. Electrons, Neutrons the math behind it. How many people here believe they understood one thing at the end of that lesson??? :no:

Politicians have hijacked our education system. I say we toss them into hell!!!

I am extremely offended that you imagine autistic children will not be going to college. How did my pchem professor get his job if he couldn't possibly go to college? I guess they just felt sorry for him and gave him a pH D. My niece is autistic and has a 170 IQ and despite people like you I can guarantee she will be going to college.

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preacherman76

My kids learn way more than I learned at their age at the exact same school, but when in England they are teaching organic chemistry to 6th graders, how can we compete with that right now? We have actually greatly improved our education, but not at near the rate other countries have. I mean, logically, statistically, we are falling behind, but we have not gone backward.

Why do you think England is better at educating thier children then we are?

Side note. Our best examples of highly educated children are found in home schooling. Compared to public education its like they arent even in the same ball park.

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FurthurBB

Why do you think England is better at educating thier children then we are?

Side note. Our best examples of highly educated children are found in home schooling. Compared to public education its like they arent even in the same ball park.

I do not think that England is better at educating their kids, I think there are less people there who think their opinion supersedes anything anyone else might say and they are more willing to do what it takes. The best example of educated children come from the top schools in the US, some home schooled children do very well and others do very poorly. That is why education has to find a way to cater to each child's individual needs without babying them or acting like they couldn't possibly succeed.

Edited by FurthurBB

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Ignus Fatuus

I am extremely offended that you imagine autistic children will not be going to college. How did my pchem professor get his job if he couldn't possibly go to college? I guess they just felt sorry for him and gave him a pH D. My niece is autistic and has a 170 IQ and despite people like you I can guarantee she will be going to college.

Not an offense .. just a statistic. I regard highly functioning children with autism not to be autistic. Such as Jason Mcewlain or J Mac who will have a disney movie made about him and brought out in a short time.

And yes they do have skills. Such as Lucus who you can throw down a 1000 peice puzzle in front of him and he is like Rain Man with it.

I have devoted my life to children with special needs. I understand that I hurt your feelings with my comment, yet it was true. It is not the IQ intelligence with many of these students it is other aspects that hurt them.

Please accept my sincere appologies. Yet I have had students with Autism .. like Lucas even with their abilities are not able to function properly in a normal classroom. Yet we still have to teach him Algebra. If you want any advice on Autism I have studied up on it hard. Also have you ever seen J Mac score those 20 points in that 4 minutes on the basketball court.

Still I am dumbfounded how you could take this as a cause to be extremely offended ... then again if you have family members being autistic I guess I can understand ... again sorry.

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preacherman76

Statistics on Academic Performance

Of interest to many is the performance of home schoolers versus those in public or private schools. Two studies, Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America published in 1997 by the National Home Education Research Institute and Home Schooling Works: The Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998 published by the Home School Legal Defense Association, explore how children in these two different learning environments perform academically. The following information was supported by both studies:

Children who have been homeschooled all of their lives outperformed those in a traditional school environment

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for at least one year scored in the 59th percentile

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for two years or more scored between the 86th and 92nd percentile

The following information was published by SAT and the ACT High School Profile Reports:

In a 1991 test, scores reported by the Stanford Achievement Test, showed that homeschooler's composite scores were 18 to 28 points above their public school counterparts.

In 1998, graduating homeschoolers had an average score of 22.8 out of a possible 36 on the ACT. The national average was 21.0.

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danielost

Statistics on Academic Performance

Of interest to many is the performance of home schoolers versus those in public or private schools. Two studies, Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America published in 1997 by the National Home Education Research Institute and Home Schooling Works: The Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998 published by the Home School Legal Defense Association, explore how children in these two different learning environments perform academically. The following information was supported by both studies:

Children who have been homeschooled all of their lives outperformed those in a traditional school environment

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for at least one year scored in the 59th percentile

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for two years or more scored between the 86th and 92nd percentile

The following information was published by SAT and the ACT High School Profile Reports:

In a 1991 test, scores reported by the Stanford Achievement Test, showed that homeschooler's composite scores were 18 to 28 points above their public school counterparts.

In 1998, graduating homeschoolers had an average score of 22.8 out of a possible 36 on the ACT. The national average was 21.0.

i dont think that is high enough more needs to be done.

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Ignus Fatuus

Statistics on Academic Performance

Of interest to many is the performance of home schoolers versus those in public or private schools. Two studies, Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America published in 1997 by the National Home Education Research Institute and Home Schooling Works: The Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998 published by the Home School Legal Defense Association, explore how children in these two different learning environments perform academically. The following information was supported by both studies:

Children who have been homeschooled all of their lives outperformed those in a traditional school environment

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for at least one year scored in the 59th percentile

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for two years or more scored between the 86th and 92nd percentile

The following information was published by SAT and the ACT High School Profile Reports:

In a 1991 test, scores reported by the Stanford Achievement Test, showed that homeschooler's composite scores were 18 to 28 points above their public school counterparts.

In 1998, graduating homeschoolers had an average score of 22.8 out of a possible 36 on the ACT. The national average was 21.0.

For our children here in this county the homeschooled most times have children who have more structured parents. Also live in homes where the income is higher. Even with this so, these children usually do go to college unprepared with proper social intelligence. Some times they lack proper common sense ... the kind learned even at the lunch table.

In my spare time I tutor two homeschooled children. With both whom are cousins I not only teach them, yet spend 30 minutes each with their parents who are sisters. Two hours a week with each student and let me tell you they pay me well. I have brought to their attention the need for social development in Cassie and Jacob. Blessed be they listened and now have Cassie who is 12 and Jacob who is 9 involved with Church youth services and take them to the YMCA plus have them involved in sports. Also they listened enough to have both of them watch the news everyday to get a grasp of the outside world.

The news can handicap a child in ways, yet in a social sense measure it is very important.

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FurthurBB

Statistics on Academic Performance

Of interest to many is the performance of home schoolers versus those in public or private schools. Two studies, Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America published in 1997 by the National Home Education Research Institute and Home Schooling Works: The Scholastic Achievement and Demographic Characteristics of Home School Students in 1998 published by the Home School Legal Defense Association, explore how children in these two different learning environments perform academically. The following information was supported by both studies:

Children who have been homeschooled all of their lives outperformed those in a traditional school environment

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for at least one year scored in the 59th percentile

Eighth grade students who have been homeschooled for two years or more scored between the 86th and 92nd percentile

The following information was published by SAT and the ACT High School Profile Reports:

In a 1991 test, scores reported by the Stanford Achievement Test, showed that homeschooler's composite scores were 18 to 28 points above their public school counterparts.

In 1998, graduating homeschoolers had an average score of 22.8 out of a possible 36 on the ACT. The national average was 21.0.

Now compare that to just the top 2% of schools and you will see how those children outperform children who are home schooled. I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, but I do not believe it is the answer when schools, even public schools can do better than home school and the parents that do it are very dedicated.

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realmcutter

schools have funding!?, i wish someone would've told me that before i graduated, i could've complained to the principle and tried to get some for the classes that actually needed it

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Ignus Fatuus

Now compare that to just the top 2% of schools and you will see how those children outperform children who are home schooled. I am not saying there is anything wrong with it, but I do not believe it is the answer when schools, even public schools can do better than home school and the parents that do it are very dedicated.

Wow ding dong ... I am extremly offended that you did not accept my apology. No more Mr. Nice Guy with folk like you. I take pride in my teaching ability and my care for children.

Ignoring an apology is ignorance. Plain and simple, you have been the first person offended by me dealing with teaching in my many years. I state statistics ... and plain and simple very, very few special needs students go to college.

Again would have needed an acceptance of my apology ... balance yourself BB!!!

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AROCES

h

1. Recommending no CUTS is not the same as saying "Here's a blank check" - the latter implies that we simply spending blindly with no limits which is far from simply suggesting that we don't spend less.

2. I was simply pointing out the other benefits that are created as by-products. For the student we end up with smaller class sizes which allows more interaction with students by teachers - and that is just the first benefit for the student. For that mater, the other by-products help the student : More jobs for parents mean a more stable homelife, better paying jobs for those parents means less need to work multiple jobs and therefore more time parents can spend with kids and the more a parent becomes invested in their local community the more likely they are to encourage it to become safe and secure, which adds more stability t the students homelife which leads to better ability to be educated.

More interaction with the same system and people responsible for it's failure. :blink:

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Wookietim

h

More interaction with the same system and people responsible for it's failure. :blink:

Considering that the part you boldfaced was "For the student we end up with smaller class sizes which allows more interaction with students by teachers - and that is just the first benefit for the student.", I have to assume that in your mind the best way to educate students is with bigger class sizes? How, exactly will less interaction help education?

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AROCES

Considering that the part you boldfaced was "For the student we end up with smaller class sizes which allows more interaction with students by teachers - and that is just the first benefit for the student.", I have to assume that in your mind the best way to educate students is with bigger class sizes? How, exactly will less interaction help education?

AGAIN

More interaction with the same system and people responsible for it's failure. :blink:

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Wookietim

AGAIN

More interaction with the same system and people responsible for it's failure. :blink:

Since you didn't answer my question, I have to assume that you have no valid answers. Therefore I think our discussion is over.

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Ignus Fatuus

I have been seeing a very high ignorance with our education system.

Argue, grip and anger does not solve a thing. Actual teachers like myself know what the problem is and discuss this much as I have discussed it here. Politics has to die when related to education. They have no reason to change facts in books. They have no right to change the structure of education when they are not educated themselves. Standardized testing is a means of control.

Stupid, stupid, stupid ... let those who know what they are doing do their job. To tell any proffesional how to do their job is nonsense!!! Much like Forest Gump telling a Chemist what chemicals they should put in their flask. STUPID!!!!!

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