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Persia

We can't cut education

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ninjadude

Standardized testing is a means of control.

then tell us oh wise one, how do we determine how well the students are doing?

let those who know what they are doing do their job. To tell any proffesional how to do their job is nonsense!!!

Oh most knowledgeable sage, how do we determine those who are NOT doing their job and how would you supposed based on your statements above, remedy poor performance?

Stupid? Nonsense? Ha. You sound like a teenager.

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AROCES

then tell us oh wise one, how do we determine how well the students are doing?

Oh most knowledgeable sage, how do we determine those who are NOT doing their job and how would you supposed based on your statements above, remedy poor performance?

Stupid? Nonsense? Ha. You sound like a teenager.

How about let them write a simple essay or about themselves, maybe a half a page.. See if they can even write.

Edited by AROCES

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ninjadude

How about let them write a simple essay or about themselves, maybe a half a page.. See if they can even write.

Kinda hard to score and compare with others. And it doesn't say much about subjects they are studying.

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AROCES

Kinda hard to score and compare with others. And it doesn't say much about subjects they are studying.

Why do you have to compare with others?

You see, we have people in education who can't even make a decision if one can write or not. They would compare others, so if others can't write as well then it becomes normal since they are all the same.

A perfect example of Liberal Education. :tu:

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Marks_Thoughts

For an industry, (yes,education is an industry), to be successful it has to have competition. Competition can be in the form of those providing the service as a group or it must be at an individual level. In both instances our education system fails. There are monopolies all over the nation that are the only generally available providers of the product. (Yes, there are charter schools and private schools, but they are not generally available to everyone.) Also, with teachers' unions, tenure, and more there is no individual competition among the faculty or staff. There is also little reason to innovate or seek efficiencies or best practices.

Add into all of this countless school districts, each with their own staff, board and superintendent. Each district with its own regional failures or challenges, and you have a money pit with no bottom. And, no real acccountability at any level. Another factor are the school districts from a political and practical standpoint. Rich districts want to keep their 'perks', which helps the residents' property values. Now, don't misunderstand. The people in any given district pay their taxes and their taxes should go to their schools. However, in a state like Ohio there are well over 600 school districts in a state with only 88 counties. Rural counties may only have one district, while more populous counties may have several dozen. Neither situation helps our kids.

Solutions:

End the unions. End tenure. Create a state-wide school system with 88 districts, all of them accountable at the state level, all of them combining their purchase power for supplies, buildings, staff, and services. Hold each teacher responsible for student success - every year. Hold school year round. Allow parents to enroll their children in ANY public school they want their children to attend - first-come, first-enrolled. Abolish busing - you have a child, get them to and from school. Make it possible for working parents to work a full 8 hours by keeping kids in school until they can picked up by instituting before and after school activities and sports. Abolish social promotion of students. Get the grades or don't advance. Accept that students will fail - the point of a diploma is to provide hiring criteria, if all of them get it there's no value in it. Diplomas must have real, tangible value to the students and parents. Alternatively, if a student is gifted allow them to advance as rapidly as is possible.

Finally, I would make all public universities to only accept initial applicants through a 'blind' number system based solely on academics. In other words, each college applicant has their high school and lower grades analyzed for grades and level of difficulty. Add in that quantitative measures for extra-curricular sports and clubs. Each student is given an anonymous number and their bare final scores are sent to the public universities. The top scores are selected to fill available seats - period. Want to play college sports? Get into the top to get into college or tough ****. Again, we want the college degree to have real value. To be a criteria for job selection, for promotion, as a prerequisite for advanced studies. Oh, and by the way. All of the public universities would be handled exactly the same as the lower institutions. Do good for the students or go home.

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danielost

then tell us oh wise one, how do we determine how well the students are doing?

Oh most knowledgeable sage, how do we determine those who are NOT doing their job and how would you supposed based on your statements above, remedy poor performance?

Stupid? Nonsense? Ha. You sound like a teenager.

how about the old remedies

1 hold kids back who need more help.

2 fire teachers who arent doing their jobs.

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Ignus Fatuus

then tell us oh wise one, how do we determine how well the students are doing?

Oh most knowledgeable sage, how do we determine those who are NOT doing their job and how would you supposed based on your statements above, remedy poor performance?

Stupid? Nonsense? Ha. You sound like a teenager.

I understand you have a hate issue .. but damn man!!! :lol:

How do you determine how students are doing??? You teach them and put emphasis on everything but that one end of the year test. If the student still cannot add three digit numbers you do not teach them algebra. If they cannot read on a certain level you do not shove Shakphere in front of their face for homework.

As a special education teacher I see what is needed for my students ... yet I am not allowed to give but a certain amount of time towards these basic skills. I am told what they need even though these folks have never stood in front of these students.

Simple as that. More emphasis on individual development plans.

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Wookietim

How about let them write a simple essay or about themselves, maybe a half a page.. See if they can even write.

A simple essay or about themselves? "Or about themselves" what? Can you write?

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AROCES

A simple essay or about themselves? "Or about themselves" what? Can you write?

Alright, you have shown to everyone here at UM how great you are in grammar and composition.

Whoopie, wookie.:lol:

Finally something you can tell your mother about you.

Edited by AROCES

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Wookietim

Alright, you have shown to everyone here at UM how great you are in grammar and composition.

Whoopie, wookie.:lol:

Finally something you can tell your mother about you.

I am just pointing out that you, apparently, would have failed the very test you suggest... Which might mean that you are not the best person in the world to be suggesting ways to improve education.

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AROCES

I am just pointing out that you, apparently, would have failed the very test you suggest... Which might mean that you are not the best person in the world to be suggesting ways to improve education.

Me? Is this about me?

You are losing the argument so you attack me, that is how the left are, they can;t win the argument so attack the person.:tu:

As you can see, that won't work with ME. I know you folks very well. Like you pretend to be grammar champion. LOL :lol:

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Wookietim

Me? Is this about me?

You are losing the argument so you attack me, that is how the left are, they can;t win the argument so attack the person.:tu:

As you can see, that won't work with ME. I know you folks very well. Like you pretend to be grammar champion. LOL :lol:

Attacking you? No. I am simply pointing out that the very person who claims that spending ought to be cut to education and that wholesale changes in it ought to occur - changes that are to your own specifications - doesn't seem to be doing well in actually showing off how well they were educated.

Playing the victim card doesn't work for Palin and it won't work for you either.

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AROCES

b

Attacking you? No. I am simply pointing out that the very person who claims that spending ought to be cut to education and that wholesale changes in it ought to occur - changes that are to your own specifications - doesn't seem to be doing well in actually showing off how well they were educated.

Playing the victim card doesn't work for Palin and it won't work for you either.

So you are saying that you are very qualified and is perfect in grammar and composition, never made a mistake like me so ONLY people like yourself can say how Education can be fixed even though you been fixing it again and again after Billions and Billions.

Correct?

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danielost

I am just pointing out that you, apparently, would have failed the very test you suggest... Which might mean that you are not the best person in the world to be suggesting ways to improve education.

but he might be one of the best to tell us where the system failed.

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AROCES

Attacking you? No. I am simply pointing out that the very person who claims that spending ought to be cut to education and that wholesale changes in it ought to occur - changes that are to your own specifications - doesn't seem to be doing well in actually showing off how well they were educated.

Playing the victim card doesn't work for Palin and it won't work for you either.

By the way, why did you suddenly mention Palin?

GUILT?;)

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Wookietim

b

So you are saying that you are very qualified and is perfect in grammar and composition, never made a mistake like me so ONLY people like yourself can say how Education can be fixed even though you been fixing it again and again after Billions and Billions.

Correct?

No. I am suggesting that your suggestions might not carry as much weight as the actual professionals in the field do. I will defer to people who actually know what they are talking about rather than a panic-stricken far right wingnut who seems to only care about saving money rather than preparing the next generation for the challenges they will face from the rest of the world.

When your main argument seems to be that spending money on education somehow is a form of mind control by the federal govt, I tend to start discounting what you have to say. And when you follow that concept up by suggesting a revamp of how we evaluate how well students do by failing the standard you suggest, I feel I can completely discount what you have to say. And, of course, deciding to play the "Sad little victim that is being picked on" when that is pointed out takes you into the negative in that respect.

By the way, why did you suddenly mention Palin?

GUILT?;)

Because I know that to you and Daniellost, she is a magical gnome that can say no wrong and that it would annoy both of you to be reminded that she is not.

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AROCES

b

No. I am suggesting that your suggestions might not carry as much weight as the actual professionals in the field do. I will defer to people who actually know what they are talking about rather than a panic-stricken far right wingnut who seems to only care about saving money rather than preparing the next generation for the challenges they will face from the rest of the world.

When your main argument seems to be that spending money on education somehow is a form of mind control by the federal govt, I tend to start discounting what you have to say. And when you follow that concept up by suggesting a revamp of how we evaluate how well students do by failing the standard you suggest, I feel I can completely discount what you have to say. And, of course, deciding to play the "Sad little victim that is being picked on" when that is pointed out takes you into the negative in that respect.

Because I know that to you and Daniellost, she is a magical gnome that can say no wrong and that it would annoy both of you to be reminded that she is not.

The very people you adore are the very people responsible for it's failure.

Won't you want to try this time a wingnut than continue believing and supporting the let me try again professionals?;)

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AROCES

Because I know that to you and Daniellost, she is a magical gnome that can say no wrong and that it would annoy both of you to be reminded that she is not.

OK, what has the magical gnome done so BAD as a Mayor, Governor and other position she has done or held?

Edited by AROCES

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Wookietim

b

The very people you adore are the very people responsible for it's failure.

Won't you want to try this time a wingnut than continue believing and supporting the let me try again professionals?;)

Since your second sentence makes no sense at all and sounds like it is written by a drunken junkie, I think I just made my point - your suggestions for improving the system are useless since they are coming from a person who is only slightly intelligible.

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Wookietim

OK, what has the magical gnome done so BAD as a Mayor, Governor and other position she has done or held?

I am sure that since she mangles common sense and displays the same level of logic and thoughtfulness you do on these boards, you will see nothing wrong with what she has done.

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AROCES

Since your second sentence makes no sense at all and sounds like it is written by a drunken junkie, I think I just made my point - your suggestions for improving the system are useless since they are coming from a person who is only slightly intelligible.

And your suggestion of let me try again if I can only have another 100 billion, is brilliant?

Make class smaller, improve the buildings, pay Teachers more, give them more benefits, have the students play basketball after school hours.

And let the same guards keep the way they teach and handle things.

If it does not work AGAIN, we need another $100 Billion.

And you claim you ain't even drunk..... now that is what you call a bad situation.

Edited by AROCES

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AROCES

I am sure that since she mangles common sense and displays the same level of logic and thoughtfulness you do on these boards, you will see nothing wrong with what she has done.

You are sure but was not able to mention one thing she did bad performing those positions she held.

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Wookietim

And your suggestion of let me try again if I can only have another 100 billion, is brilliant?

Make class smaller, improve the buildings, pay Teachers more, give them more benefits, have the students play basketball after school hours.

And let the same guards keep the way they teach and handle things.

If it does not work, we need another $100 Billion.

And you claim you ain't even drunk..... now that is what you call a bad situation.

Here's the thing - you seem to think that we can invest a few dollars into education and see an immediate change. Education does not work that way. It will take a generation of investment of this sort to see any real change - one generation has to be affected, they have to see the benefits of an education, they have to have children who then go to school and then they have to pass the newly acquired love for learning onto their kids. So, yes - it will end up being a long term investment in which we sink lots of money into the system for a long time before we see a real change. This is not a short term investment where we will see immediate changes in the system in only a few years - it will take 20 years before we see the real returns on our investment. And during that time we cannot decide that we are bored and don't feel like waiting any longer and stop the flow of money to helping schools.

But what we have is right wingnuts like you that are now suddenly panicking about the money being spent as if education is the most important thing in the world to choke into non-existence.

The deficit is a problem - that much is certain. But we are not going to fix it by destroying the very foundation of our future competitiveness. That does not work. Short term thinking, such as is on display on the part of the far right in politics today and in the posts made by you and Daniel, will not help us in any way. As a matter of fact, it will destroy the chance we have of emerging as a competitive force in the future. What you are suggesting will not only hurt the current generation by depriving them of educational resources but will also hurt future generations by reducing their ability to compete against the rest of the world.

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Wookietim

You are sure but was not able to mention one thing she did bad performing those positions she held.

Why bother? What will you accept as "Bad"? After all, even if I give you the list of her mis-steps (Which is quite long considering that she didn't even finish her term as governor) you will simply argue that she did no wrong.

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AROCES

Here's the thing - you seem to think that we can invest a few dollars into education and see an immediate change. Education does not work that way. It will take a generation of investment of this sort to see any real change - one generation has to be affected, they have to see the benefits of an education, they have to have children who then go to school and then they have to pass the newly acquired love for learning onto their kids. So, yes - it will end up being a long term investment in which we sink lots of money into the system for a long time before we see a real change. This is not a short term investment where we will see immediate changes in the system in only a few years - it will take 20 years before we see the real returns on our investment. And during that time we cannot decide that we are bored and don't feel like waiting any longer and stop the flow of money to helping schools.

But what we have is right wingnuts like you that are now suddenly panicking about the money being spent as if education is the most important thing in the world to choke into non-existence.

The deficit is a problem - that much is certain. But we are not going to fix it by destroying the very foundation of our future competitiveness. That does not work. Short term thinking, such as is on display on the part of the far right in politics today and in the posts made by you and Daniel, will not help us in any way. As a matter of fact, it will destroy the chance we have of emerging as a competitive force in the future. What you are suggesting will not only hurt the current generation by depriving them of educational resources but will also hurt future generations by reducing their ability to compete against the rest of the world.

LOL :lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

You telling us now it will work someday?!

A generation of DUMB kids before your plan will finally work!

And you ain't even DRUNK! This is the laugfh of the day.!:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:

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