Neolithic Interventionism

[Leonardo]

The North East Asians, Japanese, Amer-indians and Eskimo etc live in the same climate and yet never adapted blue/green/grey eyes or blonde hair, so the suggestion such are climate induced is a non-starter.

There are other physiological differences between the Asiatic and Caucasoid phenotypes apart from fair-complexion, Kantzveldt. This alone makes the argument that there should be a 'commonality of expression' between such peoples in similar climate untenable.

The Caucasoid phenotypes, when inhabiting the nothern latitudes, more commonly develops the expression for fair-complexion. Including pale skin, fair hair and more commonly expressed blue eyes. The same phenotypes inhabiting the tropical latitudes retain the darker complexion and predominantly dark hair and brown eyes. This indicates the mutations are climate related.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Leonardo

[Kantzveldt]

There are other physiological differences between the Asiatic and Caucasoid phenotypes apart from fair-complexion, Kantzveldt. This alone makes the argument that there should be a 'commonality of expression' between such peoples in similar climate untenable.

The Caucasoid phenotypes, when inhabiting the nothern latitudes, more commonly develops the expression for fair-complexion. Including pale skin, fair hair and more commonly expressed blue eyes. The same phenotypes inhabiting the tropical latitudes retain the darker complexion and predominantly dark hair and brown eyes. This indicates the mutations are climate related.

Caucasoid classification is only based on skull type and there are wide ranging genetic differances between the Caucasoid groups, there is nothing to suggest that Northern Europeans inhabiting a warmer climate will begin to develop dark hair and brown eyes if they do not possess those gene types.

[Leonardo]

Caucasoid classification is only based on skull type and there are wide ranging genetic differances between the Caucasoid groups, there is nothing to suggest that Northern Europeans inhabiting a warmer climate will begin to develop dark hair and brown eyes if they do not possess those gene types.

Well, being of Nothern European ancestry, and with dark hair (what's left of it! ) and dark brown eyes, I would suggest those genetic characteristics remain with the genotype.

A population not expressing certain characteristics does not imply a deletion of the alleles that might allow that expression in that population, Kantzveldt. All Homo sapiens retain the full genotype, including the alleles for any expression found in the range of our phenotypes.

[Kantzveldt]

Well, being of Nothern European ancestry, and with dark hair (what's left of it! ) and dark brown eyes, I would suggest those genetic characteristics remain with the genotype.

A population not expressing certain characteristics does not imply a deletion of the alleles that might allow that expression in that population, Kantzveldt. All Homo sapiens retain the full genotype, including the alleles for any expression found in the range of our phenotypes.

Of course such characteristics remain in the gene-pool, and i guess the likely result of any union is a numbers game of chance and percentages, like breeding dogs over time you can begin to increase the chances of desired result by taking out any unwanted alleles.

Returning to the point i'm raising here though, what possible mechanisms would change the shape of a peoples skull, their body proportions, arguably give them blue eyes, blonde hair and pale skin, just by the fact that they moved into an early Neolithic settlement...bearing in mind that Cro-Magnon had been living in the region for some considerable time and you would expect was well adapted...he enters a village and emerges as Neolithic man...why?

Edited March 30, 2011 by Kantzveldt

[questionmark]

Returning to the point i'm raising here though, what possible mechanisms would change the shape of a peoples skull, their body proportions, arguably give them blue eyes, blonde hair and pale skin, just by the fact that they moved into an early Neolithic settlement...bearing in mind that Cro-Magnon had been living in the region for some considerable time and you would expect was well adapted...he enters a village and emerges as Neolithic man...why?

Hmm..lets see...so in 1945 a Industrial Age man went to bed and emerged as an Atomic Age man? Some kind of outside intervention too?

[Kantzveldt]

Hmm..lets see...so in 1945 a Industrial Age man went to bed and emerged as an Atomic Age man? Some kind of outside intervention too?

You are saying that post 1945 peoples skull shape and body proportions changed, and that new variations in eye colour and hair appeared...?

[questionmark]

You are saying that post 1945 peoples skull shape and body proportions changed, and that new variations in eye colour and hair appeared...?

I would be very surprised if any body could determine the eye color of the Cro-Magnon man, besides the fact that we are talking about the first known homo sapiens sapiens, a species we belong to.

[Leonardo]

Of course such characteristics remain in the gene-pool, and i guess the likely result of any union is a numbers game of chance and percentages, like breeding dogs over time you can begin to increase the chances of desired result by taking out any unwanted alleles.

Returning to the point i'm raising here though, what possible mechanisms would change the shape of a peoples skull, their body proportions, arguably give them blue eyes, blonde hair and pale skin, just by the fact that they moved into an early Neolithic settlement...bearing in mind that Cro-Magnon had been living in the region for some considerable time and you would expect was well adapted...he enters a village and emerges as Neolithic man...why?

I believe the terms you are looking for are natural selection, and genetic drift.

Taking the point of our forefathers, the ostensibly named Cro-Magnon. It is possibly because of this name that these people were considered a different species of human but, as questionmark has pointed out, they were as much Homo sapiens sapiens as you or I. Perhaps they were, as a population, a little more robust in their physique, and perhaps the cranial capacity of H. sap. sap. has increased marginally over the tens of thousands of years since "Cro-Magnon Man" walked the Earth, but minor physiological differences aside, their genome is the same as our own. Those physiological differences can be put down to the lifestyle that population undertook, and also to the lifestyle we, via our Neolithic ancestors, also undertook. Lifestyles which, between those earlier iterations of H. sap. sap. and the later, were markedly different.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Leonardo

[Harte]

The North East Asians, Japanese, Amer-indians and Eskimo etc live in the same climate and yet never adapted blue/green/grey eyes or blonde hair, so the suggestion such are climate induced is a non-starter.

Only if you are a Lamarckian.

Harte

[Harte]

bearing in mind that Cro-Magnon had been living in the region for some considerable time and you would expect was well adapted...he enters a village and emerges as Neolithic man...why?

Who is "Cro Magnon?"

There exists no such classification for any species of Homo.

Harte

[Abramelin]

Who is "Cro Magnon?"

There exists no such classification for any species of Homo.

Harte

Crow Magnon is a crow repellent.

I really hate those guys, and I am glad they died out.

[Kantzveldt]

Who is "Cro Magnon?"

There exists no such classification for any species of Homo.

Harte

Ah right his name changed to EMH...

[Kantzveldt]

I would be very surprised if any body could determine the eye color of the Cro-Magnon man, besides the fact that we are talking about the first known homo sapiens sapiens, a species we belong to.

By deduction brown...

[questionmark]

By deduction brown...

seez who?

[Kantzveldt]

Only if you are a Lamarckian.

Harte

I'm no Lamarkian but don't believe peoples eyes and hair change colour when the sun comes out.

[Kantzveldt]

seez who?

Says anybody who considers there was no other colour available at the time.

[Abramelin]

Blue eyes, a genetic fk up.

Waardenburg syndrome

http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Waardenburg%20syndrome

.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Abramelin

[Kantzveldt]

Blue eyes, a genetic fk up.

Waardenburg syndrome

http://www.encyclo.co.uk/define/Waardenburg%20syndrome

.

The high number of genetic disorders in the human gene-pool compared with other species is actually used as an argument for genetic tinkering.

[questionmark]

Says anybody who considers there was no other colour available at the time.

Blue eyes is a product of polar conditions, so from the last ice age all over Europe ("Würm glaciation"). During the end of it, for several thousand years, Homo sapiens sapiens lived in Europe. So, deduction failed.

They could have been any color you can find sapiens sapiens nowadays with.

As I said, you need to study the subject slightly more if you want to avoid embarrassing statements as we have seen above.

[Abramelin]

The high number of genetic disorders in the human gene-pool compared with other species is actually used as an argument for genetic tinkering.

Compared to what other species?

[Leonardo]

The high number of genetic disorders in the human gene-pool compared with other species is actually used as an argument for genetic tinkering.

Well, no. It's more an indication that not all the 'mate-finding' we do is via strict "fitness" criteria, which is much more how other species accomplish reproduction.

The extremely sophisticated social structure of H sap sap (and possibly other hominids), means that provision for 'weaknesses' in the population can be overcome through co-operative and supportive behaviour. It is both a favourable result of our increased intelligence driving this path to ever increasing social complexity (and the technological development this can afford us), and a detriment to the species that this support/co-operation can facilitate the retention of otherwise undesirable genetic traits.

Likewise, because of the reduced need to be so "fit" to our natural environment, the approach to 'mate-finding' can be undertaken in a more casual manner and aesthetics (and other abstracts) starts to play an ever-increasing role.

So, it is down to our particular evolutionary path that has resulted in the retention of 'genetic disorders' over other species. Were we not evolved to be so intelligent and social, these traits would be bred out of the species in order for maintaining species survival.

Edited March 30, 2011 by Leonardo

[Kantzveldt]

Blue eyes is a product of polar conditions, so from the last ice age all over Europe ("Würm glaciation"). During the end of it, for several thousand years, Homo sapiens sapiens lived in Europe. So, deduction failed.

There is no evidence blue eyes are produced by polar conditions, also the genetic mutation for blue eyes post-dates the ice age.

Edited March 31, 2011 by Kantzveldt

[Kantzveldt]

Compared to what other species?

Tutti frutti.

[Kantzveldt]

I believe the terms you are looking for are natural selection, and genetic drift.

Taking the point of our forefathers, the ostensibly named Cro-Magnon. It is possibly because of this name that these people were considered a different species of human but, as questionmark has pointed out, they were as much Homo sapiens sapiens as you or I. Perhaps they were, as a population, a little more robust in their physique, and perhaps the cranial capacity of H. sap. sap. has increased marginally over the tens of thousands of years since "Cro-Magnon Man" walked the Earth, but minor physiological differences aside, their genome is the same as our own. Those physiological differences can be put down to the lifestyle that population undertook, and also to the lifestyle we, via our Neolithic ancestors, also undertook. Lifestyles which, between those earlier iterations of H. sap. sap. and the later, were markedly different.

The people of the early Neolithic weren't living a lifestyle radically differant than their ancestors, they were still hunting, and farming and herding developed over several thousand years. Our lifestyle today is radically differant than that of the early Neolithic period, yet there is no sign that body and cranial proportions are changing, i would suggest the lifestyle followed on from increased intellectual capacity and not that this was playing catch up on lifestyle.

Yes they were the same species as earlier man but differant enough

[TheSearcher]

Blue eyes is a product of polar conditions, so from the last ice age all over Europe ("Würm glaciation"). During the end of it, for several thousand years, Homo sapiens sapiens lived in Europe. So, deduction failed.

They could have been any color you can find sapiens sapiens nowadays with.

As I said, you need to study the subject slightly more if you want to avoid embarrassing statements as we have seen above.

Hmmm, that's different from what I seem to remember, about blue eyes. I remember having read that research showed that people with blue eyes, have in fact a single common ancestor and that scientists tracked down a genetic mutation that leads to blue eyes. The research was done by one Dr. Eiberg from the University of Copenhagen, if memory serves., can't remember what publication I read it in though. It said that the mutation may have arisen in a single individual around the Black Sea region 7,000 to 10,000 years ago during the Neolithic revolution.

Tutti frutti.

It was a valid question, that does warrant an answer, in my opinion. Why this answer?