PALESTINE HUNGER STRIKE

[Talon]

PALESTINE HUNGER STRIKE

Palestinian prisoners have launched a hunger strike in what could be the biggest clash between thousands of inmates and the Israeli authorities for four years.

The prisoners want more family visits and phone access, but the Israelis are taking a hard stance.

One Israeli Cabinet minister said he would rather let the protestors starve and prison officials have imposed more sanctions.

Marwan Barghouti, a leader of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement, is taking part in the hunger strike, said his daughter.

Mr Barghouti, seen as a possible successor to Arafat, is serving five consecutive life terms for a role in attacks that killed five people.

The strike began with 1,600 inmates in three prisons and was expected to spread to others, with all 7,500 prisoners to take part by the end of the week.

The Palestinian government said it backed the prisoners and declared a day of solidarity for Wednesday.

In the past four years, since fighting flared up in the region, Israeli troops have rounded up thousands of Palestinians said to be involved in bombing and shooting attacks.

The prisoners are being held in Israeli jails, a large tent camp in the Negev Desert, and at crowded military bases in the West Bank.

The strike was organised by the main Palestinian factions of Hamas, Islamic Jihad and Fatah.

Israeli officials reacted by imposing additional sanctions, including banning all family visits and the sale of cigarettes.

Public Security Minister Tzachi Hanegbi said Israel would not give in to the prisoners' demands.

"The prisoners can strike for a day, a month, even starve to death, as far as I am concerned," Mr Hanegbi said.

Link

"The prisoners can strike for a day, a month, even starve to death, as far as I am concerned," Mr Hanegbi said.

Now as much as I don't care if terrorists starve or not, you imagine the up roar from human rights groups if a western nation said this

Edited August 17, 2004 by Talon S.

[Novo]

Isreal is a terrorist with the backing of the law.. to the prisoners

[bathory]

Isreal is a terrorist with the backing of the law.. to the prisoners

and the prisoners are all innocent and shouldn't even be there!

down with zionist opression

[AztecInca]

Some of those palestinains are probably guilty but how many are innocents how are just being locked up because they are a palestine! The israelis have to arrest someone and if you are a palestine watch out!!!! Anyway their demands aren`t huge or anthing, I`m sure that the could come to a compromise or something!!! How can they let them starve themselves, they are fellow human beings!!!

[bathory]

because they have the right to starve themselves....see Israel is respecting their rights:)

I thought Israel had a sizable palestinian population that got on with the israelies?

[Erikl]

LOL Talon you really pulled it off this time.

OK, before anyone starts singing the original theme of the UN, EU and Arab World, here's the reasons for why the sanctions won't be canceled:

Many terrorist acts were done by Palestinian prisoners cause we allowed them to meet with visitors, who carried instructions out side the prison.

So the sad truth is that if we will lift the sanctions up, terrorism will be back, and if we won't - then they'll starve.

As much as I respect human rights, I really don't care if the will starve themselves to death. Remember, those are the same type of guys who cut westerners heads in Iraq.

And it isn't like we starve them - it's their own choice. Sorry really that we don't let them plan more terrorist acts against us.

Damn, I guess this really bothers the European Union and the UN.

And lets not forget ofcourse the concentration camp America created for Al-Qaida prisoners in Cuba.

And lets not forget the killing of 300 terrorists in one day by coalition forces, instead of capturing them and putting them on trial.

And ofcourse lets not forget the abuse of prisoners in Iraq by coalition forces.

Yes, you treat terrorists much better than us .

Some of those palestinains are probably guilty but how many are innocents how are just being locked up because they are a palestine!

*sigh*...

again another ignorant claim....

20% of Israelis ARE Palestinians lol.

And they weren't arrested because they were Palestinains lol.

There are probably some 5,000 Palestinian security prisoners.

There are 3.5 million non-Israeli Palestinians.

Mmmm... yes, that's make sence. That proves that we mass-arrest Palestinians.

LOL.

Anyway their demands aren`t huge or anthing, I`m sure that the could come to a compromise or something!!!

Sure, you know what - Israel will let Palestinian security prisoners to plan more terrorist attacks, then carry those orders out side of prison.

NO thanks... I much rather be alive thank you.

And anyway, it's their hatred which cause them to starve - if they didn't plan attacks even while in prison, the sanction wouldn't have been decided.

How can they let them starve themselves, they are fellow human beings!!!

That's not what I hear from most of you when it comes to Al-Qaeda terrorists cutting westerners' heads.

Then we hear "they are animals!", "they should die", etc.

Hipocracy someone?

[Erikl]

Now as much as I don't care if terrorists starve or not, you imagine the up roar from human rights groups if a western nation said this

Believe me Talon, we are already roared by those pro-Palestinians organizations, like Amnesti and the EU lol

If only Britain or the US would be half-critisiced.... LOL

[Barnacle Battlefront]

And it isn't like we starve them - it's their own choice.

i agree erikl. if they weren't being given anything then that is wrong, but they are and the israeli authorities can not be held responsible for the prisoners decisions.

Edited August 17, 2004 by Pheenix

[Talon]

You know Erkle, I'm not sure if your supporting me or opposed to me

[AztecInca]

Lol!Sorry! Yah you are right Erikl! I`m not the most informed on the subject of palestine terrorism and isreal! I had no idea about how many isrealies were palestinian! Itrs just that I cant stand the thought of my fellow human beings straving to death even if its their own choice!!!

Next time I `ll just let the more informed members discuss this, since I`m very ignorant to this, seriously I am!! I think I might do some research on this now just to really know whats going on!!!

Hey erikl could you think of any sites that could offer me some good info on this subject!!! Any help would be appreciated!!!

Edited August 18, 2004 by AztecInca

[Erikl]

Oh btw, this is just in from debka.com:

"Palestinian terrorists in Israeli jails sensing their hunger strike for better conditions has fallen flat are planning to spread rumors of deaths among inmates and stage “funerals.” Most of the strike leaders have broken their fast and accepted food."

Here we go again (it's been what - two years after the "massacre" in Jenin and the fake funerals? god... the Palestinians need to fing themselves some new tricks. Unfurtunately some people will probably believe them again ).

Edited August 21, 2004 by Erikl

[Talon]

Dude isn't denying Jenin like denying the Halocaust?

[Erikl]

Dude isn't denying Jenin like denying the Halocaust?

LOL!

See what I'm talking about?

Man - there was NO massacre.

The UN confirmed that months later.

This was all Palestinian propaganda and bogus.

Read this page for more info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jenin#Operati...efensive_Shield

And for the highlights:

"Jenin was entered by Israeli forces in early April 2002, as part of Israel's Operation Defensive Shield. A battle took place there, about which conflicting reports were relayed. According to the Israeli Defence Forces, Israel chose not to bomb the spots of resistance using aircraft as it entered in order to minimize civilian losses, but rather to take hold of the city using infantry. 23 Israeli soldiers were killed in the street fighting, 14 of them in a single day from a charge carried by a suicide bomber that triggered the collapse of a building and from shooting done by his accomplices. Overall, Israel said that its forces had killed 47 militants and 7 civilians. The walls of many buildings were covered with posters hailing the suicide bombers "martyrs"."

"False Allegations of a Massacre

Initially, officials of the Palestinian Authority claimed that the Israelis had deliberately massacred 3,000 people, and were burying them in mass graves. Some advocates of Palestinian nationalism claimed that "the Jews" were starting a "Holocaust" against Arabs. Many Western news agencies reported these claims uncritically and without confirmation. However, on April 30, Kadoura Mousa Kadoura, the director of Yasser Arafat's Fatah movement for the northern West Bank, dropped the death toll to 56 people, including armed combatants. Further investigation by the United Nations and international reporters confirmed that only 52 Palestinians where killed in the operation, 22 of whom were civilians."

"On May 2nd, Israel Defense Forces (IDF) filmed adult Palestinians carrying out a mock funeral procession. The funeral was fake and the "body" was able to get up and walk."

Smile to the camera - you've been fooled by the well-oiled Palestinian propaganda machine, too

[Erikl]

Oh and here's another site disputing the entire "massacre" claim:

http://students.washington.edu/israeluw/in...info-jenin.html

And here is the video filmed by an IDF unmanned reconnaissance plane on April 28, 2002, in Jenin, of a fake funeral:

mms://server5.castup.net/server12/75307863.wmv

Edited August 21, 2004 by Erikl

[alis]

and here's a site ive found, http://www.un.org/peace/jenin/ you may like to look at too., though beware, a very long read.

[Erikl]

Thank you Alis for giving a direct link to the UN report which I was reffering to.

Here is an important line from it:

" 56. Fifty-two Palestinian deaths had been confirmed by the hospital in Jenin by the end of May 2002. IDF also place the death toll at approximately 52. A senior Palestinian Authority official alleged in mid-April that some 500 were killed, a figure that has not been substantiated in the light of the evidence that has emerged. "

[Talon]

o Destruction of security buildings and infrastructure in Jenin city.

Destruction of security buildings of the Palestinian Authority in Jenin city.

160 buildings totally destroyed in the refugee camp.

100 buildings partially damaged. 800 families without shelter, an overall estimate of over 4,000 persons.

10 per cent of the camp totally destroyed.

The centre of the refugee camp has been totally levelled. The area has a diameter of about 200 m and a surface of about 30,000 m2, with approximately 100 buildings totally destroyed.

This part is what caught my attention. Ignore the death for a sec Erikle, what about the 4,000 who are now homeless? (not that a refugee camp realy counted as a home to begin with)

[Erikl]

This part is what caught my attention. Ignore the death for a sec Erikle, what about the 4,000 who are now homeless? (not that a refugee camp realy counted as a home to begin with)

Well, if you count the fact that an entire street was blown off by Palestinian terrorists to kill IDF soldiers, which were sent there to take out the terrorists instead of carpet bombing the entire city (like your country did in Iraq btw), and the fact that Israel is giving hundreds of millions of dollars to the Palestinians to compensate them for the desrtruction of their houses (if they weren't terrorists ofcourse of harboring terrorists), and the fact that this money together with the EU money and US money is going to Palestinian Authority's corrupted leaders, instead of building new houses, and the picture becomes much clearer.

Anyway, do you now wish to take back your earlier statement, which said:

" Dude isn't denying Jenin like denying the Halocaust?"

Because as you just saw, the numbers are not even close.

And in personal note - I find it quiet offensive when someone equates my country's actions to the ones done to my people in the Holocaust - especially when it is a baseless accusations that stems from European media's bias against my country (as I quoted earlier: "Initially, officials of the Palestinian Authority claimed that the Israelis had deliberately massacred 3,000 people, and were burying them in mass graves. Some advocates of Palestinian nationalism claimed that 'the Jews' were starting a 'Holocaust' against Arabs. Many Western news agencies reported these claims uncritically and without confirmation.").

Edited August 22, 2004 by Erikl

[Talon]

Oh come on, you know fine well I used the holocaust delibrately to try and get you to think what it must be like on the otherside to the fence raguardless of numbers.

Lossing your home is an utter tragedy, all you have taken from you in an instant leavig you nothing but the clothes on your back. After sighing in relief that 3,000 lives have not been lost, our hearts should bleed at the absolute horror of 4,000 people being left homeless.

It was a refugee camp, hadn't these people suffered enough?

All it is likely to do it breed more terrorists.

If your so worried about the money going to corrupt leaders, I take it your proposing that your government should have kept the money and just build the Palistinian's towns and cities themselves?

[Erikl]

Oh come on, you know fine well I used the holocaust delibrately to try and get you to think what it must be like on the otherside to the fence raguardless of numbers.

If I didn't know you well enough, I would say that you have serious lack of knowledge about the Holocaust.

But being as it is, and that I know you have a good knowledge of history, I'm only left with the following:

Nothing that has been done to the Palestinians is even remotely alike the Holocaust. So no matter what do you want to make me think about.

Equating my country's, a Jewish state, actions to that of Nazi Germany, is nothing short of creulty, not only because it has no base in reality, but for the sheer fact that the Nazis were the greatest opressors of my people, causing 1/3 of my nation to disappear in only 4 years but mass extermination in death camps and mass graves.

Jews that have been living side by side with their neighbors for thousands of years were betrayed by them for no reason - the Jews not only that didn't hurt their neighbors, but were one of the greatest patriots in their country.

With this kind of statements, if I didn't know that you are not an anti-Semite, I would regard you has such.

Lossing your home is an utter tragedy, all you have taken from you in an instant leavig you nothing but the clothes on your back.

This is again not true. The people are given a couple of hours to pack their stuff and get out of the building before the IDF blows it. So they are left with everything, except for their house, which me and other 6.78 million Israelis then pay to the PA to rebuilt those houses, only so that his money will get to their corrupted leaders' pockets.

After sighing in relief that 3,000 lives have not been lost, our hearts should bleed at the absolute horror of 4,000 people being left homeless.

If you checked the facts earlier, you wouldn't have to turture your sensitive soul on the facts that thousands of been killed. And I still didn't get a confirmation from you that you indeed was fooled by Palestinian propaganda, and the fact that your news networks broadcasted such false information withour checking it our first proves that they are biased.

And also that equating my country's war against terrorism to the holocaust by many is nothing short of a new form of Jew-hating (the fact that Jews are continuosly equated to Nazis is pretty suspicious, more so when UK and US's actions in Iraq and Afghanistan are not equated as such, even though they are much worst than what my country do).

It was a refugee camp, hadn't these people suffered enough?

It is still a refugee camp - those 4,000 houses are a very small percentage of the camp (you quoted it yourself - "10 per cent of the camp totally destroyed". This means that 90% of the camp is still standing).

And anyhow - my country didn't build those camps - they were built by Jordan in 1948.

When my country offered a joint project with the Palestinian Authority back in 1993 to dismantle those refugee camps and resettle their inhabitors in cities, the PA refused.

If your so worried about the money going to corrupt leaders, I take it your proposing that your government should have kept the money and just build the Palistinian's towns and cities themselves?

Well there is one problem with this - there are terrorists in those refugee camps.

Sending in Israeli workers to build houses, is a suicide.

Israel must kick the Palestinian Authority back to Tunis, or this conflict is never going to end.

Before the arival of the PA, there was no need for curfews, barriers or whatever.

[alis]

Chips, the United States volunteer

Chips, a United States Red Cross volunteer, was one of the first persons to go through the streets of the Jenin camp, to which the medical units of humanitarian relief organizations had been denied access for two weeks. Although she had taken part in many relief operations in a number of countries, Chips said that she was deeply shocked by what she had seen. She stated: "I shared and experienced with the Palestinians moments of pain and suffering as they tried for several days to enter the camp. But the Israeli army prevented them from doing so. In spite of the hundreds of calls for help from children and women and from the camp population in general, none of us was in a position to play our role and come to the aid of anyone. The tanks were everywhere and were even firing on the ambulances, backed up by snipers who were occupying a number of buildings. ... The Red Cross did what it could and set up countless contacts so that the Red Cross staff and ambulances, which display the organization's logo, could be permitted to bring relief to the injured and remove the bodies of the martyrs, but in vain. The Israeli army prevented us from moving, which is both horrible and contrary to international law." Describing the situation in the camp as catastrophic and tragic, Chips added: "When the Israeli army authorized us to enter the camp, it was too late. As soon as we set foot on the ground, we smelt the odour of death and of the corpses that the army had left in the streets and alleys and under the rubble. ... I have been to several regions of the world and have seen destruction of various kinds, but the scenes in the Jenin camp were different, terrible and tragic. We retrieved charred corpses and others that were rotting, and they all belonged to civilians, including women, children and elderly persons. Some bodies were buried under the rubble of houses destroyed by the army. It was a real massacre and the scenes were terrible.

Death of a group

Those in the camp are still telling the story of the seven young people who were hiding together in the room of a house where relatives and neighbours had the habit of meeting, the men and young men on one side and the women and children on the other. A mood of fear and apprehensiveness gripped these people, causing some of them to go outside to see what was happening, including one young man who went into the street then returned to the room where the others were gathered. However, an Apache helicopter which was hovering over the camp targeted the spot and fired a missile. The room was blown up and all seven young men were killed. Their bodies remained in the room for more than five days, since they were in the middle of the camp and nobody could reach them. When people were able to go there, the spectacle they encountered was horrible: bodies were dismembered and burnt, and body parts gave off an odour of decay. The victims were unrecognizable. One man said that when he entered the room he stumbled over the leg of a victim and fell in front of him. He tried to identify the body and was able to recognize one of his relatives by the spectacles his relative was wearing. People then began the operation of placing the body parts of each martyr in a separate bag for burial before the arrival of the mothers and sisters, in order to spare them the trauma of seeing the bodies of their loved ones mutilated and in pieces.

The martyrs Abdulkarim Al-Saadi and Jamal Al-Sibagh

The Israeli soldiers killed mercilessly. If they had the least doubt they shot and killed innocent people. This is what happened to Abdulkarim Al-Saadi and Jamal Al-Sibagh. Abdulkarim was approximately 20 years old and worked for the municipality of Jenin. He had been married for four months and his wife was expecting a baby. He suffered from chronic backache. When the Israeli army entered the camp, it assembled young men and men in the streets and squares, and Abdulkarim and his father left the house. The soldiers asked Abdulkarim to undress. When the soldier saw the medical corset around his waist, he thought that Abdulkarim was wearing a belt filled with explosives, and he fired a hail of bullets which went right through him causing his father to be covered in blood. The father in shock fell to the ground next to the body of his son.

The way in which Jamal Al?Sibagh was killed was scarcely different. Jamal was a young man, nearly 40 years old and diabetic. When the Israeli army asked the men and young men to leave the houses in order to be searched and arrested, Jamal was carrying a bag with his medication. When he began to undress on the orders of the soldiers, the zipper in his trousers jammed. He tried to unjam it, but the soldiers thought that he was going to act against them and fired at him. He was killed and his blood spattered a young child of five years who was by his side.

source

QUOTE 

Lossing your home is an utter tragedy, all you have taken from you in an instant leavig you nothing but the clothes on your back.

This is again not true. The people are given a couple of hours to pack their stuff and get out of the building before the IDF blows it.

well whoopy doo! how would you like it if you were given a couple of hours to pack your stuff before the house where you have grown up and have lots of memories is blown up? heck, even a couple of days to pack wouldnt make me feel any better.

as your forefathers have been subjected to torture, death, etc your people should have some kind of understanding of what the palestinian people are going through. no it cant be compared to the Holocaust, but just because it cant be compared to that, doesnt make the terror in jenin ok. if you brush jenin under the carpet, how can you expect people to have sympathy when an israeli is attacked?

Edited August 23, 2004 by alis

[Erikl]

Alis, being that youre record is not very moderate - you support the mad Iranian regime in it's actions and you believe like (unfurtunately) many muslims that Israel is the big satan (I do not blame you - this is something you've been taught at your homes by dictatorships who dictated to the people what to think), and being that your sources are usually TeheranTimes.com and things like that, I think you better off go and learn more about the facts, just like reese advised you to do, before taking part in this discussion.

[Erikl]

Oh and if you'll read this link:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michell...m20040602.shtml

You'll see why a UN Red Cross source is not very reliable...

[Talon]

Funny I thought her source was UN's site.... I didn't know they thought of Isreal as 'the big Satan'

I have work now, I'll be sure to post on this when I get back

Edit:

Oh and if you'll read this link:

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/michell...m20040602.shtml

You'll see why a UN Red Cross source is not very reliable...

You know, I don't think I completely trust a site which as soon as you open it you see an ad saying 'Keep Reagan's legacy alive: Make a stand for conservatism' to be unbias.

Edited August 23, 2004 by Talon S.

[alis]

Alis, being that youre record is not very moderate - you support the mad Iranian regime in it's actions and you believe like (unfurtunately) many muslims that Israel is the big satan (I do not blame you - this is something you've been taught at your homes by dictatorships who dictated to the people what to think)

i have a bad temper erikl, yes i can admit it but in no way do i support the hardline fundlementalists, Iran has a mixture of hardliners and moderate clerics, i would like to see the moderates rule the country and give the people the freedom you and i have. i do not hate jews, my father's friend used to buy stock for his clothes shop from jews. they got on very well and allowed my dad's friend credit and never ripped him off, unlike some cowboys. erikl i do get angry when you basically brush jenin under the carpet, because everyone's got to have so much sympathy for you and your people, yet your people have a licence to kill in your eyes. i do not support terrorist actvitiy, it gives the rest of the muslim population a bad name, and solves nothing.

being that your sources are usually TeheranTimes.com

show me more than one instance where i use the tehrantimes?? please, im waiting.

I think you better off go and learn more about the facts, just like reese advised you to do, before taking part in this discussion.

im sorry if you dont like what you hear, but unless i get banned, im going no where.

Edited August 23, 2004 by alis