PALESTINE HUNGER STRIKE

[Talon]

Talon, responding with "here we go again" to reality won't make it disappear. You obviously has a prespective about Israel which is not true. period.

You equate Israel to Nazi Germany out in the open and don't understand why it's so sickening.

This doesn't make it ok - it's just shows how serious this problem is in Europe.

Then you are surprised why I say you are biased.

Sheesh...

My point is that when you can't argue with people's fact, quotes and evidence you always revert to the 'Jew-haters' and 'Europe's out to get us' defence. Erikle, there are 900 million Europeans, and what 7 million Isrealis? If we really were part of a consipircy to get rid of you, it would have happened already.

[wunarmdscissor]

thats is a good point erikl we all dont hate jews.

[Erikl]

Btw, Talon, you dropped a bunch of words in your quote:

plus misguided and badly informed supporters of the

Palestinians

-- or just, in some instances, the usual Jew-haters"

Alis - Israel is not in violation of the forth Geneva convention because that convention deals with territories of other countries who were captured in an agressive war.

In details:

A. the Jordanian and Egyptian annexation of Judea, Samaria and Gaza in 1949 were never recognized by the UN, and the Ottomans dropped any claims of ownership to that land, Israel didn't captured this land from any country, and the only two bodies who do have any claim for this land is Israel and the PLO, with the Israel having an international priority because it is a soveirgn state, not a national organization.

Thus the correct and neutral term to the West Bank and Gaza strip is "disputed territories", not "occupied territories" (because they are not occupied, according to international law) nor "Palestinian territories" (because there is no Palestinian state and never was such. Palestine was the name given by the Romans to the land after they exiled the Jews and tried to eridicate any memory of Jewish existance on this land - going so far as to even change the name to the name of the once most bitter enemies of the Israelites - the Philistines)

B. The 1967 war which was the war when the disputed territories were captured by Israel, were a defensive war, and even the UN recognizes it. It started after Egypt have blocked all sea doors to Israel's only sea-door in the Red Sea, which was an act of war, which Israel retaliated. The campaign where the West Bank was captured was opened when Jordanian army fired with tanks and artilery to Israeli territory, urged to do so by Egyptian propaganda which spread rumors that Egyptian forces already reached Tel Aviv.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Erikl

[Erikl]

Wund, I didn't say you all hate Jews - I said that Talon's arguments that Israel is the new Nazi Germany is an anti-Semitic argument, wether the one arguing that is an anti-Semite or not.

My point is that when you can't argue with people's fact, quotes and evidence you always revert to the 'Jew-haters' and 'Europe's out to get us' defence. Erikle, there are 900 million Europeans, and what 7 million Isrealis? If we really were part of a consipircy to get rid of you, it would have happened already.

First of all, I could say the same about you - you ignore many facts that i bring here, and when you don't have any way of refuting them, you resort into calling my country Nazi Germany and claiming that we do to the Palestinians what the Nazis did to us.

And about you last sentence - it has almost been accomplished only 60 years ago ...

Edited August 26, 2004 by Erikl

[Erikl]

And let me repeat the questions raised in my post to Bathory:

Third, I wonder what colaition forces would do if Iraqi children who were brainwashed to become martyrs will run with M-16s or explosive-belts toward them? Will they shoot them, or will they just run away/stand still and themselves get killed?

Also, I wonder how would they act if Iraq wouldn't be 5000 miles off Washington or 3000 miles off London - but 20 minutes from those cities?

[wunarmdscissor]

I say you all just agree to disagree

[Erikl]

I say you all just agree to disagree

I would have if I wasn't sure that such accusations will be raised again by Talon and his siter next time.

Untill I won't get a serious post from Talon, addmiting that Israel is not Nazi Germany and that we do not genocide the Palestinians, I can't take any of his other claims against my country as legitimate ones.

Ofcourse my country has done many mistakes like all other countries in this world, and believe me - we do know this and we do criticise our government.

We are also open for other people's criticism - like your's and fluffy for example, which although I do not agree with you, I see such criticism as legitimate.

On the other hand, the bashing of my country to the level of anti-Semitic-like done by Talon and his sister is not legitimate criiticism (for Talon - I do not call you anti-Semite here, I'm saying that youre argument against my country that we are Nazis and that we genocide the Palestinians like the Nazis have done to us is an anti-Semitic claim, regardless if the ones who raises it is an anti-Semite or not.).

[bathory]

do not agree with you however about the IDF delibertly shooting Palestinian children.

First of all, those "childrens" (age 13-18 usually) carry AK74/M16/explosive-belt. Secondly, the fact that Palestinian terrorists hide between civilian population is the sole reason for why some Palestinian civilians (ie - people who do not carry arms) are getting killed.

Third, I wonder what colaition forces would do if Iraqi children who were brainwashed to become martyrs will run with M-16s or explosive-belts toward them. Will they shoot them, or will they just run away/stand still and themselves get killed.

Also, I wonder how would they act if Iraq wouldn't be 5000 miles off Washington or 3000 miles off London - but 20 minutes from those cities.

well i was specifically refering to IDF killing children in response to tossed rocks (thats what i took from whoever posted that incidence, if there is more to it, by all means post some links), if they kids were armed and shooting, i'd think its a bloody shame, but in the end a child with a machine gun becomes a combatant. Kind of like the US soldiers wasting pregnant women in somalia because the somalian fighters were using them as shields, its a ****ed up situation, but it comes down to us and them.

[wunarmdscissor]

erikl to fair on talon i really really doubt that he has an anti-semitic or racist bone in his body.

you can tell from his posts its nothing religious or racial.

He simply feels the actions of your govt are wrong rightly or wrongly he holds that opinion. as you have the right to coice your opions on our country.

I dont think religous or racial ill though comes into it.

[Erikl]

erikl to fair on talon i really really doubt that he has an anti-semitic or racist bone in his body.

you can tell from his posts its nothing religious or racial.

Let me repeat what I am saying continuesly through out all this thread:

"for Talon - I do not call you anti-Semite here, I'm saying that youre argument against my country that we are Nazis and that we genocide the Palestinians like the Nazis have done to us is an anti-Semitic claim, regardless if the ones who raises it is an anti-Semite or not."

"I didn't say you all hate Jews - I said that Talon's arguments that Israel is the new Nazi Germany is an anti-Semitic argument, wether the one arguing that is an anti-Semite or not."

Talon can interrept these quotes however he wishes, and I think he specifically chooses to present it as if I call him an anti-Semite, to delligetimate my claims to him.

For example, he chose to see me as gathering him in the anti-Semites' group even in the articles I brought:

or just, in some instances, the usual Jew-haters

....

While he could as well see it in this way:

"Btw, Talon, you dropped a bunch of words in your quote:

plus misguided and badly informed supporters of the

Palestinians

-- or just, in some instances, the usual Jew-haters"".

[Erikl]

do not agree with you however about the IDF delibertly shooting Palestinian children.

First of all, those "childrens" (age 13-18 usually) carry AK74/M16/explosive-belt. Secondly, the fact that Palestinian terrorists hide between civilian population is the sole reason for why some Palestinian civilians (ie - people who do not carry arms) are getting killed.

Third, I wonder what colaition forces would do if Iraqi children who were brainwashed to become martyrs will run with M-16s or explosive-belts toward them. Will they shoot them, or will they just run away/stand still and themselves get killed.

Also, I wonder how would they act if Iraq wouldn't be 5000 miles off Washington or 3000 miles off London - but 20 minutes from those cities.

well i was specifically refering to IDF killing children in response to tossed rocks (thats what i took from whoever posted that incidence, if there is more to it, by all means post some links), if they kids were armed and shooting, i'd think its a bloody shame, but in the end a child with a machine gun becomes a combatant. Kind of like the US soldiers wasting pregnant women in somalia because the somalian fighters were using them as shields, its a ****ed up situation, but it comes down to us and them.

"MYTH:

“Israel uses excessive force to respond to children who are just throwing stones.”

FACT:

Palestinians, young and old, attack Israeli civilians and soldiers with a variety of weapons. When they throw stones, they are not pebbles, but large rocks that can and do cause serious injuries.

Typically, Israeli troops under attack have numbered fewer than 20, while their assailants, armed with Molotov cocktails, pistols, assault rifles, machine guns, hand grenades and explosives, have numbered in the hundreds. Moreover, mixed among rock throwers have been Palestinians, often policemen, armed with guns. Faced with an angry, violent mob, Israeli police and soldiers often have no choice but to defend themselves by firing rubber bullets and, in life-threatening situations, live ammunition.

The use of live-fire by the Palestinians has effectively meant that Israeli forces have had to remain at some distance from those initiating the violence. In addition, the threat of force against Israelis has been a threat of lethal force. Both factors have inhibited the use of traditional methods of riot control.

According to the rules of engagement for Israeli troops in the territories, the use of weapons is authorized solely in life-threatening situations or, subject to significant limitations, in the exercise of the arrest of an individual suspected of having committed a grave security offense. In all cases, IDF activities have been governed by an overriding policy of restraint, the requirement of proportionality and the necessity to take all possible measures to prevent harm to innocent civilians.

Meanwhile, the Palestinians escalated their violent attacks against Israelis by using mortars and anti-tank missiles illegally smuggled into the Gaza Strip. Palestinians have fired mortar shells into Jewish communities in Gaza and Israel proper and IDF reports indicate that anti-tank missiles have been fired at Israeli forces in Gaza.

IDF Chief of Staff Shaul Mofaz told visiting American Jewish leaders on Feb. 28, 2001, that the Palestinian Authority (PA) has been stockpiling weapons smuggled into Gaza by sea and underground tunnels linked to Egypt.

The possession and use of these weapons and other arms by the Palestinians violates commitments they made in various agreements with Israel. Under the Oslo accords, the only weapons allowed in the Palestinian-controlled areas are handguns, rifles and machine guns, and these are to be held only by PA security officers. The recent violence makes clear that in addition to the police, Palestinian civilians and members of militias, such as the Tanzim, also are in possession of such weapons.7a

The number of Palestinian casualties in clashes is regrettable, but it is important to remember that no Palestinian would be in any danger or risk injury if they were not attacking Israelis. If children were in school or at home with their families, rather than throwing rocks in the streets, they too would have nothing to fear. And children throw more than rocks. Abu Mazen, Yasser Arafat's deputy revealed that children are paid to carry out terrorist attacks against Israel. He told a Jordanian newspaper that "at least 40 children in Rafah lost arms from the throwing of Bangalore torpedoes [explosive charges]. They received five shekels [approximately $1.00] in order to throw them." [FN Almazen [Kuwait], (June 20, 2002).]

Also, while the number of Palestinians who have died is greater than the number of Israelis, that should not minimize the traumatic loss of life on the Israeli side. From September 29, 2000, through October 21, 2002, 640 Israeli Jews, including 451 civilians, were murdered by Palestinians. Contrary to Palestinian assertions that they are fighting a war against armed forces, fewer than one-third of the Israelis that have been killed were soldiers.In just the first half of 2002, Palestinians carried out 91 suicide attacks.8a

It is also worth considering how police in the United States and other nations react to mob violence. Abuses do sometimes occur when police are under attack, but no one expects them to stand by and allow their lives to be put in danger to assuage international opinion. In fact, the Palestinian Authority itself does not hesitate to use lethal force against protestors. For example, after the U.S. coalition attacked Afghanistan, Hamas organized a rally in the Gaza Strip in which thousands of Palestinians marched in support of suspected terror mastermind Osama bin Laden. Palestinian police killed two protestors when they tried to break it up.9a

It is only Israelis who are denied their right to self-defense or see it used as a propaganda weapon against them. "

The slogan that "they only throw stones" has lost it's base in reality for a very long time. In fact, it is simply not true for the current conflict.

[Erikl]

Also, read the article from wikipedia.

Here's some highlights:

"A child suicide bomber is a suicide bomber under the age of 18. Children or teenagers as suicide bombers have been used by Muslim terrorist organizations in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, Chechnya and Africa."

"In the al-Aqsa intifada, Palestinian terrorists exploit young people in the aid of terror, mainly as human shields and bomb-transporters but also as suicide bombers and combatants. Although there were many witnesses and photos documenting uses of children, the issue was not reported by the world media and human rights group until the widely televised incident when the Palestinian teenager Hussam Abdo was disarmed in front of the TV cameras [1] (http://www.intelligence.org.il/sp/4_04/images/rd.wmv). Palestinian supporters ignore claims about incitement and indoctrination of "Shuada" (Martyrdom operations or just martyrdom in Arabic) and "Jihad" in children by Palestinian Authority and religious clerics in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip."

Edited August 26, 2004 by Erikl

[alis]

On the other hand, the bashing of my country to the level of anti-Semitic-like done by Talon and his sister is not legitimate criiticism

you cant even refer to me by my name, you are as hypocritical if not more than anyone you accuse of not critising legitimately. i am not talon's sister, that was a ridiculous remark, but id rather be accused of being his sister than yours Erikl.

you ignore even a UN document. i suppose it has elements of anti semite in it too.

Edited August 26, 2004 by alis

[Fluffybunny]

I think Erikl may be referring to Seraphina who is Talons sister and posts here often.

[Erikl]

On the other hand, the bashing of my country to the level of anti-Semitic-like done by Talon and his sister is not legitimate criiticism

you cant even refer to me by my name, you are as hypocritical if not more than anyone you accuse of not critising legitimately. i am not talon's sister, that was a ridiculous remark, but id rather be accused of being his sister than yours Erikl.

you ignore even a UN document. i suppose it has elements of anti semite in it too.

I didn't refer to you Alis, not the whole world revolve around you, you know...

I was reffering to Seraphina, which is Talon's sister.

Also, I already told you that I didn't call you anti-Semite, I simply said that it was funny how you said you aren't anti-Semitic then proved it with examples which are usually used by closet anti-Semites.

I still do not think you, or Talon, are anti-Semites. I absolutly sure though to you are a very missinformed people. You remarks too, Alis, that you put to prove that you are not anti-Semitic, proved that once again.

I already explained what is the leverage of Arab and Islamic vote in the UN.

22 countries which are correlated in their policy regarding Israel by the Arab League are represented seperately in the UN, giving it 22 votes. The other 52 Islamic countries, largely religious, are boud to folloe this Arab League's policy because their religious center is on Arabic territory.

Just as all Chrsitian countries in the middle-ages followed Rome, the Islamic states follow Mecca (or Riad...). Ofcourse this doesn't true for secular muslim-majority countries like Turkey or Kazakhstan for example.

[alis]

Israel and the Occupied Territories

Shielded from scrutiny: IDF violations in Jenin and Nablus

Introduction

"IDF soldiers and officers have been given clear orders: to enter cities and villages which have become havens for terrorists; to catch and arrest terrorists and, primarily, their dispatchers and those who finance and support them; to confiscate weapons intended to be used against Israeli citizens; to expose and destroy terrorist facilities and explosives, laboratories, weapons production factories and secret installations. The orders are clear: target and paralyse anyone who takes up weapons and tries to oppose our troops, resists them or endangers them - and to avoid harming the civilian population."

[Ariel Sharon, Israel’s Prime Minister, before the Knesset, 8 April 2002]

"I have been in urban environments where house to house fighting has happened: Rwanda, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Colombia, and a city struck by a massive earthquake: Mexico city. The devastation seen in Jenin camp had the worst elements of both situations. Houses not just bulldozed or dynamited but reduced almost to dust by the repeated and deliberate coming and goings of bulldozers and tanks. Houses pierced from wall to wall by tank or helicopter gun ships. Houses cut down the middle as if by giant scissors. Inside, an eerie vision of dining or bedrooms almost intact. No signs whatsoever that that bedroom or dining room or indeed the house had been used by fighters. Gratuitous, wanton, unnecessary destruction. Children’s prams, toys, beds everywhere. Where were those children? I do not know, but I do know where the survivors will be in the future."

[Javier Zuniga Amnesty International’s Director of Regional Strategy who entered Jenin refugee camp on 17 April 2002]

On 29 March 2002 the Israeli Defence Forces (IDF) launched a new offensive, Operation Defensive Shield, in Palestinian residential areas. According to the IDF, the purpose of the offensive, like the incursions into refugee camps which preceded it in March and the occupation of the West Bank which followed in June, was to eradicate the infrastructure of "terrorism", in particular following Palestinian armed groups’ killing of 80 Israeli civilians between 1 March and 1 April.(1)

The offensive began with an attack on President Yasser Arafat’s headquarters in Ramallah. The IDF then entered Bethlehem, Tulkarem and Qalqiliya from 1 April, followed by Jenin and Nablus from the nights of 3 and 4 April. They declared areas "closed military areas", barring access to the outside world. The IDF cut water and electricity in most areas, and imposed strict curfews on residents within the towns.

In Jenin and Nablus a tight cordon of tanks, armoured personnel carriers and soldiers was thrown around the areas where the IDF carried out operations: Jenin refugee camp and Nablus old city. Houses were intensively attacked by missiles from Apache helicopters.

After the first day those killed or wounded in Jenin and Nablus were left without burial or medical treatment. Bodies remained in the street as residents who ventured outside to collect or attend to the dead or injured were shot. Tanks travelling through narrow streets ruthlessly sliced off the outer walls of houses; much destruction of property by tanks was wanton and unnecessary. In one appalling and extensive operation, the IDF demolished, destroyed by explosives, or flattened by army bulldozers, a large residential area of Jenin refugee camp, much of it after the fighting had apparently ended.

In the four months between 27 February and the end of June 2002 – the period of the two major IDF offensives and the reoccupation of the West Bank - the IDF killed nearly 500 Palestinians. Although many Palestinians died during armed confrontations many of these IDF killings appeared to be unlawful and at least 16% of the victims, more than 70, were children. More than 8,000 Palestinians detained in mass round-ups over the same period were routinely subjected to ill-treatment(2) and more than 3,000 Palestinian homes were demolished.

The number of Israelis killed by Palestinian armed groups and individuals also increased: the number doubled during the month of March during the first Israeli incursions; in the four months up to the end of June 2002 more than 250 Israelis had been killed, including 164 civilians; 32 of those killed were children.(3)

Israel has the right and responsibility to take measures to prevent unlawful violence. The Israeli government equally has an obligation to ensure that the measures it takes to protect Israelis are carried out in accordance with international human rights and humanitarian law. As the occupying power of the West Bank, including East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, Israel has an obligation to respect and protect the human rights of all people in these areas.

Avoiding Scrutiny

Throughout the period 4-15 April, the IDF denied access to Jenin refugee camp to all, including medical doctors and nurses, ambulances, humanitarian relief services, human rights organizations, and journalists. Amnesty International and other organizations tried to get information by the only means that seemed possible: constantly telephoning residents under curfew. By 12 April residents said that the continuous curfew had led to an acute food and water shortage. In some cases children were drinking waste water and became sick as a result. One resident from the edge of the camp said that: "the camp smells of death due to the scattered bodies, some bodies are buried under the rubble, others crushed by tanks, and the rest are left lying in the streets."

In the old city area of Nablus, the situation was quite similar. Cut off from the outside world by a cordon of IDF tanks from 3 to 22 April, Amnesty International and other human rights defenders relied on the telephone to find out what was happening; each resident was cut off and could speak only of the immediate surroundings. They described the lack of food and water and the fact they were unable to move from their houses. Occupants of one house reported the body, apparently of a Palestinian fighter, lying in the street outside; they said that when people had tried to go to him IDF soldiers shot at them. From inside the house they had watched the unknown Palestinian die; then they watched dogs eat the body as it decomposed.

Day after day residents begged for help by telephone, describing the sight and smell to medical organizations and human rights defenders unable to gain access and powerless to help.

The barriers erected by the IDF against the eyes of the outside world in Jenin and Nablus during April 2002 are typical of the barriers erected by the Israeli authorities over the past two years of the intifada. Today, every Palestinian town or village is blocked by heaps of earth, concrete blocks or IDF manned barriers. Israeli citizens are not allowed to enter the Occupied Palestinian Territories without special permission which is difficult to obtain. Palestinians from the Occupied Territories are banned from traveling on main roads and checked – and often turned back - at the Israeli-manned barrier outside every town. Since May 2002 a Palestinian cannot travel from one town to another in the Occupied Territories without a special pass. Most Palestinians do not have permits and thus do not travel. Gaza is cut off from the West Bank and entry to Jerusalem prohibited without special permission to all Palestinians from the Occupied Territories.

The Israeli authorities claim that there are reasons for this. No Israeli may enter a Palestinian area as many Israeli civilians have been targeted and killed by Palestinian armed groups. No Palestinian may enter Jerusalem or travel on certain roads as many armed Palestinians have carried out attacks on Israelis. Apart from IDF tanks, armoured personnel carriers and jeeps no one now travels freely along the roads of the Occupied Territories. In April 2002 not only ambulances from the Palestine Red Crescent Society (PRCS) were banned from access to Jenin and Nablus: those from the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) were equally banned. Not only Israelis and Palestinians were banned from seeing what was happening in Jenin and Nablus, but diplomats, journalists and international human rights and humanitarian organizations were prevented from entrance to closed military areas.

A United Nations (UN) visiting mission ordered by the UN Commission on Human Rights on 5 April 2002 and headed by Mary Robinson, UN High Commissioner for Human Rights was not allowed to enter Israel and disbanded; even a high level Fact-Finding mission agreed between Foreign Minister Shimon Peres and UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan and welcomed by unanimous vote of the UN Security Council was not allowed to enter Israel and disbanded after weeks of negotiations.

The Israeli State has the primary obligation under international law to investigate human rights violations, prosecute perpetrators, effect punishment, provide mechanisms that ensure prompt and adequate reparations for victims and ensure that violations are not repeated. However, the Israeli government, which set up the Or Commission of Inquiry to investigate the killing by security forces of 13 Palestinians killed in Israel at the beginning of the intifada in September/October 2000, has not carried out a prompt, thorough and independent investigation of any of the 1700 killings of Palestinians in the Occupied Territories.

Background to this Report

Since the beginning of the current intifada Amnesty International has sent 15 research missions to the region; more than half of them have taken place during the second year of the intifada. Eight reports were issued during the same period.

After Operation Defensive Shield began an Amnesty International delegate, Dr Kathleen Cavanaugh, an expert in international law, remained in the Occupied Territories for more than two months to monitor human rights developments. Among Amnesty International’s delegates during April and May 2002 were Amnesty International’s Secretary General Irene Khan, Derrick Pounder, Professor of Forensic Medicine, who visited Jenin and performed autopsies on bodies, and Major (ret) David Holley, a military advisor, who spent several weeks in the area in order to analyse military strategies and assess military necessity.

This report looks specifically at the actions of the IDF in Jenin and Nablus between April and June 2002. It examines allegations of unlawful killings; the use of "human shields"; torture and other cruel, inhuman or degrading treatment of people detained; blocking of medical assistance, food and water; and the destruction of property, including damage or destruction of the civil infrastructure, commercial buildings, historic and religious buildings and homes. This report also reflects the means employed by the State of Israel to keep its human rights practices shielded from internal and external scrutiny.

Amnesty International delegates visited the sites of cases documented in the report and examined scenes of alleged violations. Their research included a review of Israeli High Court cases and an examination of written records (hospital lists, medical records, ambulance logs), public statements, and video documentation. Delegates conducted interviews with representatives of municipalities, local and international medical personnel, observers from the media and many Israelis, Palestinians and internationals working for local and international human rights and humanitarian organizations, and carried out scores of interviews with residents of Jenin and Nablus, victims or their families. Testimony and other evidence were cross-checked for accuracy.

In this way Amnesty International researchers pieced together the events of Jenin and Nablus.

The concerns regarding military operations that are raised in this report were discussed in May with Major General Giora Eiland, Head of the IDF Plans and Policy Directorate, and with Colonel Daniel Reisner, the head of the International Law Department of the IDF. Their comments and explanations are reflected in this report. In June and July Amnesty International submitted all the cases in the report to the IDF for comment; by the end of September 2002 no response had been received

In Jenin and Nablus the IDF carried out actions which violate international human rights and humanitarian law; some of these actions amount to grave breaches of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 1949 (the Fourth Geneva Convention) and are war crimes.

Summary of Events

In Jenin the IDF entered the refugee camp from all sides but the largest IDF incursion appeared to be in the al-Damaj area during 3 April 2002. IDF soldiers then proceeded through the Jurrat al-Dahab area of the camp and finally into the Hawashin district. This pattern of movement is consistent with the path of destruction visible in the camp. IDF troops often used bulldozers to widen the alleyways, shaving off the outside walls of houses to allow the passage of tanks and other military vehicles through the narrow roads of the camp. The fighting was the most intense between 3 and 9 April. The IDF broadcast calls to evacuate but

many residents said that they had not heard or understood the call; others said that when they tried to evacuate they were caught in crossfire and took refuge in their own or other houses. At various times the IDF called by loudspeaker for all males between the ages of 15 and 45 to report. Many said they did not dare to leave their homes. The Palestinian men who were rounded up were mostly forced to strip to their underwear and marched or driven out to a holding station in Bir Salem for some days; most were released in outlying villages which they were told not to leave. The IDF told women who were rounded up to leave the camp.

During the earlier March incursions into refugee camps the IDF entered Jenin refugee camp with very little resistance from members of armed Palestinian groups; this time, a member of Fatah told Amnesty International researchers, they had decided to resist the IDF invasion.

"The decision to stand and fight was made by the community after what happened in March. And otherwise, where would we go? The Israelis had put a cordon around the town; we had no choice. We had nowhere else to fight."

There were about 120-150 fighters, most but not all armed with weapons; they included about 30 members of the Palestinian security forces, mostly the Preventive Security Service, who were members of Tanzim, the armed wing of Fatah. Members of armed groups told Amnesty International that women brought food to fighters and children ran messages.

In the refugee camp, the IDF moved from house to house, searching for weapons or members of armed groups. The IDF told Amnesty International that soldiers treated each of the 1,800 houses in the camp individually, warning people to leave; if no one came out of a house IDF soldiers would use a loudspeaker instructing those inside to leave. Numerous testimonies show that IDF units frequently forced Palestinians to take part in operations by making a Palestinian camp resident enter a house first and then search it; they also used Palestinians as "human shields" to shelter behind. IDF patrols blew open the doors of houses often without waiting to see whether those inside were going to open them. Houses were destroyed, sometimes without ensuring that the residents had left.

Palestinian armed groups used empty houses as bases from which to fight and often laid booby traps as they withdrew to another building. The fighting was the most intense between 3 and 9 April and especially fierce on 5-6 April. The armed groups’ tactics caused a heavy loss of life amongst the IDF who had already lost 10 men in Jenin by 9 April, when 13 more soldiers were killed in a single ambush. The bulldozing of Palestinian houses by heavy D-9 bulldozers, (which was not confined to this period) was accelerated after this date. Major-General Giora Eiland, Head of the IDF Plans and Policy Directorate, told Amnesty International:

"After seven to eight days, and after 23 dead, we decided to change tactics and use bulldozers. You bring the bulldozer close to the house, you call on the people to come out, then you destroy it. … In the last five to six days we had no casualties. On their way bulldozers had to crush more houses, because they needed to get through. This was the most humanitarian way to deal with the situation."

The negotiated surrender to the IDF on 11 April 2002 of some 34 armed Palestinians surrounded in a building appeared to mark the end of armed resistance in the camp. Palestinian armed groups told Amnesty International delegates that after 10 April they tried to hide or leave; some allowed themselves to be arrested with other men rounded up not involved in fighting. People in the camp, as well as foreign and local relief workers and journalists on the perimeters of the camp confirmed that little or no gunfire could be heard after this date. However, as the aerial photos of the refugee camp on page 8 show, much of the property destruction (bulldozing of houses) in the Hawashin area, an area of 400 x 500 metres, was undertaken between 11 and 14 April.

Ambulances of the PRCS and the ICRC were allowed into the refugee camp for the first time on 15 April 2002 and the IDF blockade was only lifted on 17 April. Most of those camp residents who could had tried to leave the camp during the invasion; after the blockade

was raised they streamed back; Amnesty International delegates watched dazed Palestinians staring unbelievingly at the rubble of houses and digging urgently, with bare hands, to try to rescue anyone buried and still alive.

Amnesty International researchers entered Jenin refugee camp on 17 April, minutes after the Israeli blockade was lifted. On 14 April one of the delegates, Derrick Pounder, Professor of Forensic Medicine, had waited outside the Israeli High Court to see whether access would be granted to medical organizations. On 15 April the ICRC and the PRCS were allowed for the first time into the camp. Amnesty International delegates waited for three hours at Salem checkpoint; when they were allowed through, without any vehicle, they walked 12 kilometres through a silent countryside, carrying heavy medical equipment, arriving at dusk to a town under curfew. Most homes in Jenin city had no electricity and only water which had been stored. To find electricity to charge their mobile phones delegates risked a night journey after curfew to a quarter with functioning electricity. On 16 April delegates waited the entire day, their entrance blocked by the IDF, outside Jenin Public Hospital on the edge of the refugee camp. There they saw a woman in labour struggling to walk the final 100 metres after the IDF halted her ambulance. The hospital director told them that bodies of Palestinians who had been killed lay in piles of earth in the hospital grounds, but Professor Pounder was not allowed to enter to carry out forensic examinations.

On the morning of 17 April the IDF blocking entrance to the hospital allowed Professor Pounder to enter. As the news came through that the Israeli blockade was lifted, delegates entered Jenin refugee camp. They looked at Hawashin, a neighbourhood that once housed over 800 families and was now reduced to rubble. An elderly man stood near the remains of a house at the areas western edge, calling that his daughter was buried under the rubble.

After the IDF closure and curfew were raised on 17 April 2002, they were repeatedly reimposed. In June, Dr Kathleen Cavanaugh, an international law expert and Amnesty International delegate, trying to carry out research in the few hours when the curfew was lifted, moved from house to house taking shelter and interviewing residents as she tried to investigate recent killings of children in Jenin during the curfew. As she was interviewing eyewitnesses the IDF killed another child breaking the curfew.

Though the IDF offensive against Nablus in April 2002 has not received the attention of Jenin, there were more Palestinian casualties (80 killed) and fewer Israeli soldiers killed (four). In the old city the injured lay dying without medical help in the streets and in homes damaged or demolished by missiles or bulldozers while the curfew and the blockade remained in force for some 20 days. Though the scale of house demolition was not equal to the devastation of Hawashin, many homes and historic buildings were destroyed or damaged.

The IDF placed a military cordon around Nablus by 3 April. The IDF first placed snipers in high buildings, mainly concentrated around the old city. As in Jenin, the IDF began its assault by firing missiles at certain buildings, but the quantity of missile fire did not appear to have been as high as in Jenin. Ground troops followed and by 6 April members of armed Palestinian groups were apparently driven back and concentrated in two main areas of the old city, al-Yasmina and the Qasbah, with a population of 3,000. Unlike in Jenin the IDF did not apparently commit large numbers of infantry to fight house-to-house; this was presumably because the houses of the old city were more strongly built and not so easy to demolish as in Jenin. However, a number of homes were damaged by missiles and the IDF demolished several houses by D-9 bulldozers, on at least two occasions while their occupants were alive. They made no attempt to check or to rescue them. The IDF also targeted commercial buildings important to the economy of Nablus: the soap factory and the Hindiyeh building. There was not the same house to house fighting as in Jenin and by 11 April most of the fighting had ended and the IDF had assumed control of the city.

Palestinian armed groups had anticipated the IDF incursion into Nablus, but found their tactics circumvented by the accuracy of the IDF snipers. Two Fatah members in Nablus described the situation during the hostilities to Amnesty International delegates:

"It is difficult to assess how many fighters there were because fighters were split into two groups: one to lay bombs, the other to fight with rifles; maybe there were around 400 in all; approximately 60 from the refugee camps. There was good cooperation between the resistance groups; it was decided to use bombs only in the beginning of the attack against the Israeli tanks. Once the tanks had broken into the city and were on the outskirts of the old city, this took the IDF three days, it was decided to resist with small-arms fire.

"Once the IDF surrounded the old city there were five days of fighting concentrating in two parts of the old city: the Qasbah and al-Yasmina. The Israeli soldiers had good street maps and aerial photos of the town, they seemed to know where to go and what houses to enter and search. The fighting was very difficult because we did not have good communications and the Israeli snipers were so accurate: movement in the alleys and streets was virtually impossible because of the snipers and attacks from helicopters using missiles.

"There was no order from Ramallah to resist, we decided to do it ourselves once we saw pictures of the fighting from Ramallah. Groups were concentrated in their own area of houses each with their own leader but communication between groups was primitive and difficult. During the first three days of the fight there was no shooting from our fighters just the use of bombs against the Israeli tanks. Some fighters tried to supply food and water to those who had run out but these were easy targets for the snipers: I was shocked at their accuracy. I also thought that they would never enter the old city but they did, I don’t think we were prepared for this."

As in Jenin the IDF cut water and electricity supplies to most houses. There appears to have been no general order to evacuate before 10 April, when men were also told to report for arrest. Some residents were afraid to leave. A curfew was imposed throughout Nablus, including the refugee camps, from the first day of the IDF incursion and remained in place until 22 April. Thus the curfew lasted even longer than in Jenin; families suffered severe hardship as stocks of food and water diminished and no one dared to venture out for fear of snipers who targeted anyone in the streets. According to many reports snipers continued to shoot even when the curfew was lifted. Access to the hospitals and to dead and wounded in the old city was completely barred between 3-8 April. Elsewhere, with ambulances unable to move, field hospitals were set up in mosques or any suitable building. The curfew was lifted on 10 April for a one-hour period and then approximately every 48 hours until 22 April.

While the IDF lifted the internal closure and curfew on 22 April, Nablus continued to be placed under a general closure and there remained a visible military presence, particularly near the Balata and ‘Askar refugee camps (‘Askar refugee camp lies on a Zone A-Zone C border). Military operations in and around the camps continued. During the course of one visit by an Amnesty International researcher to Nablus, tanks were positioned on the hills just above the Balata refugee camp and on the eastern side of the ‘Askar camp and tanks and armed personnel carriers moved frequently along the main ‘Askar road. Amnesty International researchers continued their work with difficulty, never sure whether they would gain access or not. On another occasion Amnesty International researchers walked six kilometres over the hills from Burin dropping down to the edge of the old city; road intersections were barred by tanks and IDF patrols and the whole town was under curfew. Unable to reach the houses of the human rights defenders they had contacted, they left the town going eight kilometres through streets away from the centre.

Jenin

Before the second intifada began, Jenin was one of the Palestinian towns with the closest links to Israel. In part this closeness is geographical, as the town lies only 12 kilometres away from the "green line" separating the West Bank from Israel. Many of the refugees in Jenin come from villages in Israel only a few kilometres away, many families living in Jenin have relatives in Israel. Previously a large number of Palestinians from Jenin governorate worked in Israel and many Israelis came to Jenin to purchase cheap goods.

Major-General Giora Eiland told Amnesty International delegates that the IDF considered Jenin refugee camp a centre of suicide bombers where the PA funded a huge industry of "terrorist" capabilities. He said that 90 of the Israelis killed in the 18 months up to May 2002 were killed by people coming from Jenin. According to the Israeli Government, from October 2000 to April 2002, 28 suicide attacks were planned and launched from Jenin camp.

The PA Governor of Jenin, in a discussion with Amnesty International delegates in January 2002, stressed previous good relations between Jenin residents and Israelis and stated his belief that the number of attacks on Israelis from Jenin was related to the number of people from Jenin Governorate who had been killed during the intifada; each killing of a Palestinian might motivate friends and relatives to avenge him. The first suicide attack by a resident of Jenin during the present intifada took place in May 2001, eight months after the beginning of the intifada.(4)

During 2001 the IDF had heavily bombed Jenin’s administrative and police buildings, including the prison, and had carried out a number of incursions into Jenin before April 2002. In December 2001 for 27 days all roads leaving the town were blocked and the town was cut off from the surrounding area; afterwards the Israeli security presence and closures continued to weigh heavily on the life of the people.

The IDF launched a three-day incursion into Jenin refugee camp on 28 February 2002 withdrawing on 2 March. During the incursion into Jenin refugee camp under Operation Defensive Shield Jenin and many neighbouring villages were declared closed military areas, barred to the outside world. Operations in Jenin and the refugee camp lasted from 3 until 18 April. However, IDF incursions into Jenin city and refugee camp took place on numerous occasions during April, June and July until the IDF reoccupied Jenin with other West Bank cities during Operation Determined Path.

Unlawful killings

According to hospital lists reviewed by Amnesty International there were 54 Palestinian deaths between 3 and 17 April 2002 in both Jenin refugee camp and Jenin city as a result of the incursion and subsequent fighting. This figure includes seven women, four children and six men over the age of 55. Six had been crushed by houses. The body of one person known to have died by being crushed in his house has not been recovered.(5)

The records of Palestinians killed in the incursion and admitted to Jenin City Hospital reflect the impact of the IDF blockade round the hospital between 5 and 15 April. Five bodies were brought to the hospital, which is just at the edge of the refugee camp, on 3 April, the first day of the IDF incursion into the camp. One body was brought in on 4 April. After that the hospital and the camp were under tight siege and although the hospital stands at the entrance to the camp, not a single corpse was brought into the hospital from 5 until 15 April, the day after a petition filed by two human rights organizations, Adalah and LAW, before the Israeli High Court resulted in the State agreeing to allow the ICRC access to the refugee camp. Most bodies of those fighters or those not involved in fighting killed between 5 and 15 April remained where they lay; a few were taken from streets to homes, a few were buried by their families in yards or back gardens, and four were taken to the al-Razi Hospital. Amnesty International delegates who entered the refugee camp on the departure of the IDF on 17 April found ruins smelling of death, with parts of human bodies sticking out of the rubble of destroyed houses.

The list of the wounded brought to Jenin City Hospital shows that on 3 and 4 April, 24 wounded Palestinians were admitted to the hospital. In the 10 days between 5 and 15 April only 10 wounded Palestinians, who had succeeded in crossing the IDF cordon, managed to enter the hospital. The admission lists of the al-Shifa Hospital tell the same story; between 4 and 10 April only one person, a child, was apparently admitted to the hospital. On 10 and 11 April a total of nine wounded people were admitted. After that there were no admissions of wounded Palestinians until the IDF started to withdraw from the camp on 16-17 April.

During the fighting Palestinian residents and Palestinian and foreign journalists and others outside the camp saw hundreds of missiles being fired into the houses of the camp from Apache helicopters flying sortie after sortie. The sight of the firepower being thrown at Jenin refugee camp led those who witnessed the air raids, including military experts and the media, to believe that scores, at least, of Palestinians had been killed. The tight cordon round the refugee camp and the main hospital from 4-17 April meant that the outside world had no means of knowing what was going on inside the refugee camp; a few journalists were able to slip into the area at risk to their lives after 13 April, but only saw a small portion of the camp, including some dead bodies before leaving. Those within the camp reachable by telephone were confined to their homes and could not tell what was happening. It was in these circumstances that stories of a "massacre" spread. Even the IDF leadership appeared unclear as to how many Palestinians had died: General Ron Kitrey said on 12 April that hundreds had died in Jenin before correcting himself a few hours later saying that hundreds had died or been wounded.

When Amnesty International delegates went to Jenin Hospital on 17 April they found only "walking wounded" - those who had managed to make their own way through the IDF cordon. Doctors and diplomatic or other military experts who visited the scene, aware that in armed combat there is usually a ratio of three or four seriously wounded people to one dead person, wondered where were the heavily wounded. Stories of bodies buried in secret places or carried away in refrigerated vans spread. After the IDF temporarily withdrew from Jenin refugee camp on 17 April, UNRWA set up teams to use the census lists to account for all the Palestinians (some 14,000) believed to be resident of the camp on 3 April 2002. Within five weeks all but one of the residents was accounted for.

The following cases of unlawful killings were amongst those documented during the course of Amnesty Internationals research in Jenin. Amnesty International submitted all of these cases to the IDF for clarification and comment in June and July 2002 but has received no answer. In none of these cases does it appear that the Israeli authorities initiated proper investigations. Amnesty International is concerned that the failure to investigate cases of unlawful killings gives members of the IDF a carte blanche to continue.

Mundher Muhammad Amin al-Hajj

On 3 April, the first day of the incursion, 21-year-old Mundher al-Hajj, reportedly a member of a Palestinian armed group, was shot and injured. Staff at the al-Razi hospital told Amnesty International that they made three attempts to rescue Mundher al-Hajj carrying white flags but each time they were fired upon by the IDF. Hospital staff were able to reach him approximately two hours after he was first reported in need of medical help. By that time he was dead.

Samar Qasrawi, a nurse, was one of the first to attempt to reach the injured man; she stated:

"On the morning of 3 April ... between about 11.30 and 12, we could hear shooting around the hospital area from helicopters and tanks. Around this time, someone came passing from the stairs in the mosque into the hospital and yelled that someone was injured. I went with some other nurses down the stairs and toward the mosque gate. When we were outside, we headed towards the injured man. We were carrying white flags. I saw three tanks. They began to shoot at us. They told us in Arabic, ‘if you come back, I will shoot at you’. I could not see the injured man but I heard him say ‘God help us’. We returned to the hospital and took cover on the second floor. When the firing stopped, we made a second attempt to reach the injured man. We changed direction and decided to go towards the bathroom in the mosque. There is a wall and then some windows and the injured man was lying on the stairs on the other side. I could not see him.

"I started to talk to him. When I began to speak, I realized he was so close. He said to me, ‘please my sister I am dying, can you rescue me because I am dying’. I tried to calm him. When I was talking to him he was shouting, his voice was like fire. I saw a soldier then and he was coming towards me and he took up a position like a sniper. I again left and went back to the second floor of the hospital. After about 10 minutes, I went back. On the third attempt, I asked the injured man if he could move closer to the gate. He told me that he was not able to and that he had been shot in both his arms and legs. I told him then to speak slowly and softly because if the soldiers hear they will shoot him. I then asked him if I were to throw a rope toward him, could he pull himself toward me. He said ‘No, I am injured in my arms and legs’. At this time, the soldiers began to shoot towards the mosque and hospital. There was a spray of fire towards the man. I think he was hit in the back.

"I again went back to the hospital. The doctors in the hospital had been trying to coordinate the injured man’s rescue through the ICRC and the PRCS. They were continuing to try and get permission to reach the man. I again went back to the mosque and tried to talk to the man. I said ‘my brother, my brother’. He said to me in a very soft voice, ‘I cannot hear you very well’. Unlike the other times, his voice was not strong. So I went back to the hospital and spoke with the head of the hospital. He told me that the ICRC had negotiated for two nurses to rescue the injured man and asked if I would go. I told him I would and together with another nurse and a female doctor, we left. But when we reached the man, he was dead. His eyes were open. We tried but we could not carry his body. So I went back to get help and two other people went and together with the two who stayed with the body, he was carried to the hospital. He arrived roughly two hours after we first tried to rescue him."

The hospital medical report on Mundher al-Hajjs injuries shows that in addition to injuries to his arms and legs, there were shots to his back. Interviews with Samar Qasrawi as well as with Dr Mahmud Abu Alaih, who examined him after death, suggested that the wound to the back may have been inflicted by a sniper while he was lying on the steps. When he described his injuries to the nurse he did not mention any back wound. Amnesty International delegates examined the site and saw that IDF soldiers were in a building above and to the left of the place where Mundher al-Hajj was lying and would have been able to see him clearly. International humanitarian law is clear in this regard. No medical care can be denied a person who is wounded and no longer engaged in hostilities. At the time Mundher al-Hajj was wounded, no longer armed, and did not pose a threat to soldiers, he became hors de combat.

‘Afaf ‘Ali Hassan al-Desuqi

During the military operations in Jenin refugee camp, as elsewhere, the IDF has frequently used explosives to open doors of homes and buildings, sometimes without waiting to allow residents to open them, resulting in the death or injury of a number of women and men. On 5 April ‘Afaf al-Desuqi, 59, was killed when an explosive was used on the door of her home as she went to open it. She had been called to open the door by her neighbour, Ismahan Abu Murad, who was used as a "human shield" by the IDF to lead the way to the house. Ismahan Abu Murad confirmed the account given by ‘Afaf’s sister, ‘Aisha ‘Ali Hassan al-Desuqi, who told Amnesty International:

"My family was at home on Friday 5 April. It was about 3 or 3.15 in the afternoon. We heard the knocking and calling for us to open the door. My sister ‘Afaf said ‘Just a moment’. She said this right away. At that time, we were in the salon, which faces the street. ‘Afaf left to answer the door; we were following her. When she reached the door, she had just put her hand out to touch the handle of the door and it exploded. The door exploded in on her and the right side of her face was blown off. Her left hand was injured as well as the left part of her chest. I think she must have died instantly. We started shouting. The soldiers were just outside that door. The IDF began to shoot at the walls as if to try and scare us. We yelled at them to get an ambulance but they did not answer us. My brother then went and took ‘Afaf’s body. We did not have a telephone; it had been cut off since 10am that morning. The neighbours phoned the hospital and they were told that the ambulance had to wait to get clearance. We waited but no ambulance came.

"On Friday and Saturday, I kept putting perfume on her. On Sunday, we changed her clothes as they were covered in blood, and we bandaged her injuries. Because I am a nurse, I knew what it would be like to keep the body in the house with us for this time, so we went to stay with my brother to sleep at night and returned to the house to be with my sister in the day. On Thursday [11 April], the curfew was lifted for a few hours and ‘Afaf’s body was carried in a neighbour’s car to al- Razi hospital. We could not reach Jenin City Hospital, as it was a controlled military zone. We buried ‘Afaf in a cemetery in the east part of the city.

"After her killing, the IDF tried to say ‘Afaf was a suicide bomber and that she blew herself up. That is not true. Look at the door: it was blown from the outside. My sister was not political; she was not involved in anything."

Amnesty International visited the site and was able to examine the door, as well as the explosive device, which the family had kept. The impression on the door clearly indicates that the door had been blown in from an explosion outside; this evidence is consistent with the testimony cited above.

Jamal al-Sabbagh

On 6 April 2002, 33-year-old Jamal al-Sabbagh was shot by the IDF after he had been taken into their custody. According to a witness, at the time Jamal al-Sabbagh was shot, he was unarmed and had posed no threat to the soldiers who had detained him.

The day before Jamal al-Sabbagh’s killing, a missile had destroyed his house. On 6 April Jamal al-Sabbagh, along with other men aged between 16 and 45 years from the camp, were instructed by an IDF loudspeaker to come into the streets. This occurred at approximately 6pm.

At this time, 16-year-old Muzaffar Jamal Zubaidi, from the Hawashin district of the camp, was at home. He heard the loudspeaker instructing men in the district to go out into the street but he was alone and afraid. Soldiers were moving around on foot and in tanks. He told Amnesty International delegates that he waited beside his house and was looking to see if he recognised anyone going out into the street. When he saw his neighbour, Jamal al-Sabbagh, he left his house to walk with him. It was getting dark by this time. He said that soldiers had each man strip to their underwear and provide their details, including name and ID number. Jamal al-Sabbagh was carrying a sack with him and he explained that the soldiers allowed him to carry his medicine, as he was diabetic, and to keep his clothes on. The soldiers had instructed the men to walk to a square near the health clinic. Muzaffar Zubaidi and Jamal al-Sabbagh walked there together:

"We were ordered to lie on the ground, we did. Jamal was just a short distance, a few metres or so, away from me. Jamal lay on the ground but held on to his bag. Then the soldiers told us to stand up and told Jamal to put his bag on the ground away from him. He put it just to the side of him. The soldiers then said for us to take off our trousers. I had begun to take off my trousers and I heard some shots. One of the bullets came very close to me. I fell to the ground. Jamal was shot in the side of the head. I could hear Jamal praying and then nothing. I stayed silent on the ground. I think the shot came from a sniper in a third floor window. A short time after, I am not sure how long, another group of men came into the square. The soldiers ordered them to strip to their underwear. Together with these men, I went into a room and the soldiers tied most of our hands behind our backs. There were three men whose hands were not tied. They carried his body to the entrance of the door and the soldiers told them to search him. They searched him but they did not find anything. The IDF then put his body in a fridge – it was a dairy store that the IDF had taken over."

Muzaffar Zubaidi returned to Jenin after two days in detention and 11 days in Rumaneh village. He contacted Jamal al-Sabbaghs relatives, but he could not find his body. The Director of Jenin City Hospital, Dr Mohammad Abu Ghali said:

"At 5pm on 15 April we found the remains of a body, mutilated by a tank, by the dairy store - a finger, some pieces of flesh, a pair of trousers beside the traces of the body of a human being. I called the IDF over and said ‘Where is the body?’ They did not say anything."

The remains of the body, which had been run over several times by a tank, are believed to be Jamal al-Sabbagh.

‘Abd al-Karim Yusuf Sa’adi and Wadah Fathi Shalabi

On 6 April 2002, 27-year-old ‘Abd al-Karim Sa’adi and 37-year-old Wadah Shalabi were shot dead by the IDF in an alleyway close to the Sa’adi home. The two men were neighbours who lived near the entrance to the Jenin refugee camp. At the time of their killing, the two men were with Wadah Shalabis father, Fathi Shalabi, who managed to escape uninjured. He described the events of that day:

"My son Wadah has six children four boys and two girls. The oldest child is 10 years old and the youngest is four months. It was 6 April at about 6.30pm. The IDF had gone to the house of Yusuf ‘Abd al-Karim Sa’adi. He lives not far from my house, maybe 15 metres. Yusuf’s son, ‘Abd al-Karim was at my house at the time. The IDF then moved from this house to my neighbour’s house. My son, Wadah, does not normally stay with us but because of the situation, he had come to stay here with his family. Myself, my wife, my son and his family and my daughter and her family were all here with me. The IDF ... saw my children playing in my backyard and told them to go to the basement of my house. We all went to the basement, there were 17 of us, and we were there for about five minutes. We were then told to go next door but instead of letting us pass through the main entry, they made us walk along the street and then approach my neighbour’s house through an alley. When we reached the end of the alley, the soldiers separated the men from the women and children. Both my son and ‘Abd al-Karim were holding children. They handed the children to the women and remained in the alley. The women and children went to a back garden of ‘Abd al-Karim’s house, which was located through a metal door off the alleyway. When the women and children were in the garden, the soldier closed the door. Some of the soldiers went with the women and three stayed with us; they were only two metres away in the narrow alley. Two were called Gabi and David. .... They told us to lift our shirts.

"We did not have anything in our hands. When they told us to raise our shirts, we did. I heard Gaby say in Hebrew ‘Kill them, kill them’, then the other soldier took his gun and sprayed us with bullets. He shot from left to right, so ‘Abd al-Karim was hit first and then Wadah. I don’t know how I wasn’t shot except that when I heard the shots, I fell to the ground. My son’s body was resting on mine. I could feel something wet underneath and I could see it was blood. I could see that my son was shot. I kept very quiet and pretended to be dead".

According to Fathi Shalabi, the soldiers remained there for over one hour. They checked the bodies from time to time and one had shone a light near his eyes. He tried to remain still. After he was sure that the soldiers were gone, he went and hid in his home. He knew both his son and ‘Abd al-Karim Sa’adi were dead. He stayed at home until later that morning and then left to the Sa’adi home where his family was sheltering. The bodies of the two men remained in the alley for nine days (the hospital record shows that they were brought in on 15 April).

Amnesty International visited the site of the shooting. There was under two metres distance between the position of the soldiers and that of the victims. At the time the shootings would have occurred, it would have been early evening, but would not yet have been dark. It has been suggested that ‘Abd al-Karim Sa’adi was wearing a back-brace and the soldiers might have mistaken it for an explosive belt; however, the brother and father of ‘Abd al-Karim Sa’adi insisted that he did not wear a back-brace. Professor Derrick Pounder carried out an autopsy on the body of Wadah Shalabi and concluded that he died from a shot into the left back and out of the right front. Wadah Shalabi was also shot in the foot.

Major-General Giora Eiland, the Head of the IDF Plans and Policy Directorate, described this case as one where IDF soldiers found three men hiding, one with a suicide bomb belt. He said:

"There was one time when a company commander called on people to come out. Some women came out. The soldiers asked them if there were other people in the house. ‘Some visitors’, they replied. ‘Tell them to get out’. Three men got out; one held a baby. The IDF officer told him to give the baby to the women, he refused, the officer insisted, eventually he did so. Then they told the men to come closer and take off their shirts. Two took off shirts, one refused. Eventually he did and had a belt. He was shot."

This explanation of the case is difficult to reconcile with the location of the bodies, in such a narrow alley way that it would have been unlikely for a soldier, only 1.7 metres away, to order detainees to come any closer. This is a case which has been widely reported, and the first names of two of the soldiers involved in the shooting are known. It remains unclear why a full and public investigation to establish the circumstances of death has not been carried out.

source and full article

and by the way erikl sorry to assume you meant me, but by the involvement ive had in the discussion, i wrongly assumed you did.

Edited August 26, 2004 by alis

[wunarmdscissor]

alis much as i think erikl is very biased in his opions , and ive told him so many times , from your posts you are equally as bad.

especially in your defences of Iran

Ignore the warr on terror or the fact im a christian.

The people who rule iran are bad it has been proven by secret reports held within the country.

They oppress and torture women, torture politcal opponents and they are openly aggressive and bigoted towards israel.

it isnt a western conspiracy its the truth theyre human right record is appalling.

Edited August 26, 2004 by wunarmdscissor

[wunarmdscissor]

Just as erikl should no there is NO european consiracy towards Israel.

LOL withall this plotting us Europeans are doin its a surprise how much time i get to PARTY.

[alis]

alis much as i think erikl is very biased in his opions , and ive told him so many times , from your posts you are equally as bad.

especially in your defences of Iran

Ignore the warr on terror or the fact im a christian.

The people who rule iran are bad it has been proven by secret reports held within the country.

They oppress and torture women, torture politcal opponents and they are openly aggressive and bigoted towards israel.

it isnt a western conspiracy its the truth theyre human right record is appalling.

what do you know about my feelings for the Iranian regime, ive never once supported,so check your facts. but at the same time, i dont agree with the way the current regime change in Iraq is being handled, and have no desire funny enough, for my family to be homeless, hungry, injured, tortured, raped or dead in the process of what might not even work in that area. if you think Iran will attack because it has nuclear weapons, your mistaken, Iran has too much to loose if it were to. to have them as a form defense, just like many other countries, i cant see the problem.

you have made me out to be a khormeni supporter. little do you know matey, i have almost been arrested for trying to speak out over there, you think i want it to stay like that, phew, i just dont want some other country coming in, and destroying the country completely, and you would feel the same i believe it were your country and your family living in the capital city.

and no offense but the christian comment doesnt impress me or anything, seeing as my mum's one. she's christian, my dad's muslim, and im neither. a lesson to many!

Edited August 26, 2004 by alis

[Erikl]

You know what, Alis, I didn't even bother to read it anymore....

I can summerize it for the rest of us: it shows how Israel is a Nazi state, how it is the greatest human rights violator, how it genocide the Palestinians etc..

This is youre usually type of messages.

Let's check all these general and absurd claims to details, shall we?

A. Is Israel a Nazi state?

Not only Israel is the only democracy in the middle-east, and the only place there where Arabs get to vote in free and fair elections, and to protest freely, but it was also founded by Socialists, and has a welfare state policy. Israel also sent a special operation force to rescue 22,000 Ethiopians and fly them to Israel, giving them full citizenship rights. This is the first time ever that a western country brought tens of thousands of Africans NOT FOR THE PURPOSE OF INSLAVE them, but to give them the ability to live in peace and to be safe.

So this refutes Israel's alleged racism.

Next, Israel is currently represented by an Israeli-Palestinian (Palestinians who are Israelis) team in the EUFA soccer games. Israel's beauty queen of '99 was a young Israeli-Palestinian woman from Haifa.

There is an Arab minister in the Israeli government.

Israel's ambassador to some country in Europe which I can't remember, is an Arab.

So this refutes any claim that Israel is fighting the Palestinians because they are Palestinians.

B. Is Israel the greatest human rights violator?

This claim is absurd! I can draw a bunch of countries currently violating humans rights houndred times more than Israel ever did:

Iran, Syria, Saudi Arabia (where it is forbidden to build Churches an Synangues, and Jews are forbidden to enter this country), Jordan (where prisoners are being turtured in prison and the law of citizenship specifically forbids Jews from becomming citizens), Egypt (where gay people are excecuted), Russia (where 75% of the Chechens disappeared), China (do I even need to specify?), most African countries, many south American countries, Latvia (where 30% of the population's citizenship was canceled only because they are Russians and not Latvians), many countries in the Balkan, the Palestinian Authority, etc.

Israel is clearly not the largest human rights violator, yet it is always being focused upon. Can anyone explain why?

C. Has Israel violated UN resolutions the same as Iraq and thus should be invaded just like Iraq?

Let me just quite ti you what I wrote earlier:

"I. UN Resolutions

A. Two Kinds of Resolutions

1. Chapter Six deals with the peaceful resolution of disputes and entitles the council to make non-binding recommendations.

2. Chapter Seven gives the council broad powers to take action, including warlike action, to deal with "threats to the peace, breaches of the peace, or acts of aggression". Such resolutions are binding on all UN members.

B. Application

1. Chapter Seven resolutions were used against Iraq after its invasion of Kuwait.

2. The resolutions relating to the Israeli-Arab conflict come under Chapter Six, not Chapter Seven.

3. By imposing sanctions--including military ones--against Iraq but not against Israel, the UN is operating in accordance with its own rules.

C. Palestinian Admission of the Difference: In a PLO report, entitled 'Double Standards' and published at the end of September, it is pointed out that though the UN has upheld the Palestinians' right to statehood, condemned Israel's settlements and called for Israel to withdraw, nevertheless 'no enforcement action or any other action to implement UN resolutions and international law has been ordered by the Security Council.'

"

D. Does Israel commiting genocide against the Palestinians?

Causulties clearly refute this!

there are 1,000 Israeli victims, and 3,000 Palestinians.

There are 3.5 million non-Israeli Palestinians.

Do the math.

Giving the fact that the IDF is one of the most advanced militaries in the world, if we wanted to commit genocide, this would have been a complete failure.

Giving also to the fact that only 30% of the Israeli deads are IDF soldiers, and the majority of Palestinian deads carried arms when they died, you can clearly see who targets who - Palestinian terrorists target mostly Israeli citizens. IDF targets Palestinian terrorists, which hide among Palestinian civilian population.

E. Are the Jews colonisers of the land? Was there ever such a state called Palestine?

Jews lived continuesly in what is now Israel for the last 3,000 years. The name "Israel", in reference to a group of tribes, first appears in an Egyptian hyroglyph from a military campaign in Canaan in 1208 BCE. 1,400 years from this period they, untill the 5th century ad, Jews (and Samaritans) were a majority. The Romans who killed 500,000 Jews in 70 ad and exiled most of the Jews who lived there have changed the name of the land to Palestine, or in Latin - "Palestina", after the name of the Jews' most bitter enemy, who was long gone (absorbed in the rest of the population) by that time, the "Philistines", a Greek-speaking people that invaded Canaan from Cretes.

The Arabs first came here in the 7th century, capturing this land from the hands of Byzantine rule.

Nevertheless, Jews continue to live in what was now called "Palestine" to this days, as a minority.

It is true - most of the Jews who live in Israel today are the descendants of immigrants, but this is also true for most of the Palestinians:

Many Palestinians from different Arab countries came here during the British mandate, to find work. The British, who wanted to appease the Arabs, restricted Jewish immigration (while millions of Jews were butchered in Europe), but looked the other way in the case of Arab immigration.

Nevertheless - the Jews sided with the British, while the Arabs sided with the axis powers.

It is also worth mentioning that the first Zionists came to Israel in 1882, while this land was under Turkish rule, long before the League of Nations in 1917 to give the British a mandate here to prepair it for the creation of a Jewish state (something that the British didn't do btw).

Also to refute the belief that most Israelis are of European descent, and thus this is just another case of "white people who opress the natives": most of Israeli Jews are descendants of "Arab" Jews - that is, Jews who escapred ethnic cleansing in Arab countries (where they lived in Jewish communities which were 2,500 years old) against them.

Again - these are facts.

Deal with them.

It clearly shows Israel is not a Nazi state, not a racist state, that it's policy towards Palestinians isn't racist derived, and that Jews are not colonialists, and that Israel is not the greates nor the main human and UN rights violator.

Now for a question:

If you were an Israeli, in light of all these facts, and when you hear about how many anti-Semitic incidents are happening all over the world, what would you think when youre country is blamed for being a Nazi state, greatest human violator, UN violator, etc.?

Edited August 26, 2004 by Erikl

[Erikl]

Anyhow I'm really tired from this.

I can see that there is no way you'll change your mind and start looking at the facts. I don't expect from you, Talon/Sera/Alis to start being pro-Israeli, just go from non-rational criticism to a rational, legitimate one. People will also respect you more if you'll stick to the truth. I don't have a problem with criticisim, I have a problem with lies and half-thruths. I do not believe you intentionally and delibertly conspire agianst Israel - I believe you hunnestly believe in these things, and that's what sadens me - to see people who believe in utter lies, incapable of excepting simple truths - that Israel is not a Nazi state, that we do not genocide the Palestinians, and that we are not a criminal state.

[Velikovsky]

Okay I just sat through and read all five pages here. Since both sides are quoting facts and real world events, how about if everyone just accepts that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are in the wrong. There's no angels on either side here but the palestinians have a valid complaint so do the israelis. They're both taking the wrong path to achieve their goals. For that matter the constant US intervention in the whole thing doesn't help.

So lets look at the facts:

Palestinian soldiers go around and kill a lot of innocent people trying to secure a nation for themselves.

Israeli soldiers go around and kill a lot of innocent people trying to defend their nation.

Both sides are in the wrong!

[Erikl]

Palestinian soldiers go around and kill a lot of innocent people trying to secure a nation for themselves.

Israeli soldiers go around and kill a lot of innocent people trying to defend their nation.

This is the only part of youre post that I do not agree with you. My entire line of defense here is that Israel DO NOT kill lot's of innocent people, although it does kill some, and always by accidant.

Calling terrorists "soldiers" is also simply not true. Terrorists ARE NOT soldiers. And there is a difference between terrorists and so called freedom fighters. Freedom fighters usually target military related-targets, not civilians. In this cinflict, only 30% of Israeli killed (295 to be exact, out of 1,000), were soldiers. The other being both Jewish and Palestinian Israelis. On the other hand, the large majority of Palestinians who were killed were armed when they died in battles against IDF soldiers, not to include the other ones who volunterly explode themselves in amid Tel-Aviv or Jerusalem.

Also, keep in mind that the terrorists are hidding among civilians - so it's expected that there will be civilian cuasulties when IDF soldiers and Palestinians terrorists fight in a crowded city.

On the other hand, I do not agree with many of my government actions when it comes to fight against terrorism. On the combat level - I'll give us A++. On political level, however, I'll give my government F-. This is not the way to make sure my country will be safe in the future (and btw Talon - it is likely not in the way you think ... ).

Anyhow, I really don't want to get into this again. I think I've explained my-self throughout this thread over and over again.

Btw - well done for your patience in reading everything

[Talon]

Just as erikl should no there is NO european consiracy

There should be one though! We should form a European Super State to take over the world! Muahahahahahaha

Disclaimer: the above is a joke

You know what, Alis, I didn't even bother to read it anymore....

Untill I won't get a serious post from Talon

We've been quoting for serious informed sites such as the UN and Amnesty, if you aren't even willing to take your opponents’ posts as 'serious[ly]', then we shouldn't even be having a discussion. There is no point in continuing this.

Talon can interrept these quotes however he wishes, and I think he specifically chooses to present it as if I call him an anti-Semite, to delligetimate my claims to him.

Dude, your saying I'm not anti-Semitic but my argument is anti-Semitic. Okay... I'm sure how that works, but I'll assume your saying I'm not a racist. However, I have to point out nothing I say is anti-Semitic.

He simply feels the actions of your govt are wrong rightly or wrongly he holds that opinion. as you have the right to coice your opions on our country.

Here, Winrun is accurately read my argument and judged my opinion. Israel is a country who's actions are decided by a government, the Jedaism are a religion. Judaism might be the dominant religion of Israel, but it doesn't make them interconnected. Claiming if someone's argument is against Israel’s government and foreign policy means it is against the Jews, is like saying that being against Bush is being against America, being against Blair is being against British, being against Stalin is being against Russians, being against Hitler is being against Germans etc etc.

They are not interconnected.

You have yourself admitted I'm not anti-Semitic. Good. Now you must realise that an argument anti-Israeli’s foreign policy does equal an anti-Semitic argument.

Again, if you can’t tell the different, we shouldn’t even try and have this discussion.

Disclaimer: And no I have not included Hitler there as part of an anti-Semitic argument or dig, although you will probably take it to be such (same as you expect me to take your arguments to mean that your claiming I'm anti-Semitic).

how about if everyone just accepts that the Israeli and Palestinian governments are in the wrong. There's no angels on either side here but the palestinians have a valid complaint so do the israelis. They're both taking the wrong path to achieve their goals. For that matter the constant US intervention in the whole thing doesn't help.

This is the argument I posted a few pages back, referring to both sides of the crisis being a shade a grey, and there being no black and white, and both forces

committing wrongs, and both must make compromises for peace. I feel, like you, it was a justifiable argument to end the discussion on and leave both sides happy. Unfortunately it didn't get anywhere. Just as it probably won't this time.

Edited August 26, 2004 by Talon S.

[Erikl]

Untill I won't get a serious post from Talon

We've been quoting for serious informed sites such as the UN and Amnesty, if you aren't even willing to take your opponents’ posts as 'serious[ly]', then we shouldn't even be having a discussion. There is no point in continuing this.

Again you conveniently cut only piecies from my sentences and repond to them, as if they stand alone. There's a word for doing so: damagogue. You seem to be full with it, btw...

Here's what I actually said:

"Untill I won't get a serious post from Talon, addmiting that Israel is not Nazi Germany and that we do not genocide the Palestinians, I can't take any of his other claims against my country as legitimate ones.".

Meaning that I want him to admitt that he was/is wrong, to admitt that my country isn't a Nazi state.

Obviously your damagogue repsonse proved you can't admitt in your mistakes.

Dude, your saying I'm not anti-Semitic but my argument is anti-Semitic. Okay... I'm sure how that works, but I'll assume your saying I'm not a racist.

That works fine if the person is unaware that he what he says is anti-Semitic - which is exactly your case.

Your comments that Israel is the new Nazi Germany, is anti-Semitic, but you yourself seem to be unaware of that.

However, I have to point out nothing I say is anti-Semitic.

And I just gave you two articles showing you why it is anti-Semitic.

Here, Winrun is accurately read my argument and judged my opinion. Israel is a country who's actions are decided by a government, the Jedaism are a religion. Judaism might be the dominant religion of Israel, but it doesn't make them interconnected. Claiming if someone's argument is against Israel’s government and foreign policy means it is against the Jews, is like saying that being against Bush is being against America, being against Blair is being against British, being against Stalin is being against Russians, being against Hitler is being against Germans etc etc.

It was so if it wasn't for the fact that you yourself said that it is ironic that Israel is treating the Palestinians the same way the Nazis treated the Jews.

Meaning you specifically chosen to equate Israel to Nazi Germany because of Israel's Jewish charachter - other wised it wouldn't be ironic..

This is the reason why this argument is anti-Semitic.

Let's drop for a second the fact that Israel is a Social-Democratic democracy, and been so since it's establishment - meaning that there is little base here to call it a Nazi state.

But let's look at the equasion of Israel to Nazi Germany specifically to create an irony, meaning you do it because Israel is a Jewish state.

In other words - you call Israeli Jews Nazis.

You must understand how sensitive Jews are about all this, and even in the government - a minister in our government is a survival from Aushwitz.

Calling Israel a Nazi state is not a legitimate criticism against Israel.

Now you must realise that an argument anti-Israeli’s foreign policy does equal an anti-Semitic argument.

Not only that I'm aware of that - I said it many times during this thread.

But there is a legitimate criticism and non-legitimate criticism.

Saying that Israel is not fair to the Palestinians for not giving them what they want - is legitimate, although extremly non-accurate.

Saying that Israel should treat the Palestinians differently - again a legitimate criticism.

Saying that both sides are wrong - again, legitimate.

And i already gave wun and fluffy as people who's criticism against Israel, from my past experience with reading their posts, is legitimate.

BUT:

There a simple test to determine the difference between honest, valuable criticism of Israeli policy and anti-Semitism. it is called the three "D" test.

The first "D" is demonization. When you compare Israel to Nazi Germany, you are demonizing Israel. To compare democratic Israel to fascist Germany, implying "they did it to you and now you're doing it to others" is absurd and sick. That there is no real basis for comparison is irrelevant.

The second "D" is double-standard where criticism is applied selectively.

Do similar policies by other governments bring on the same vehement criticisms? It is Jew-hate when Israel is singled out by the United Nations for human rights abuse while Cuba, Syria, Russia, China, Iran, Zimbabwe, to name just a few, are virtually ignored.

The third "D" is the delegitimization of Israel, the claim that the state has no right to exist. Why not a state for the Jews? They are as entitled as any other peoples in the world. To call them colonialists and segregationists is a flagrant misuse of both words.

Ofcourse not any criticism against Israel is anti-Semitic.

But it seems that in the last four years or so, the difference between anti-Israelism and anti-Semitism has become vage.

Anyhow I see this doesn't go anywhere.... *sigh*... too bad....