[Merged] FBI Roswell memo released

[TheMcGuffin]

Based on what evidence? This Mr. Steinman seems to have made some pretty outlandish claims about the UFO Phenomena in the past.

Again what evidence does Mr. Steinman have to support this claim?

According to Steinman, and later Timothy Good in his books Need to Know and Above Top Secret, Dr. Carl Heiland was one of Scully's anonymous sources about the crash. Others came forward with similar information over the years, like Dr. Berthold Schwarz, a former intelligence officer, and Admiral Sumner Shapiro, even though their details did not always match what Heiland and others told Scully.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tqu7764c2cQC&pg=PA117&lpg=PA117&dq=carl+heiland+ufo&source=bl&ots=fL8Y5wIIfl&sig=UNc5dpny9lEhGcaXAQ6iTQSFQS0&hl=en&ei=OimlTYmRA-uz0QHGkYCCCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Incidentally, Edward Ruppelt supposedly told Scully that of all the UFO books published, his was "closest to the truth."

Edited April 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[lost_shaman]

I think you'd better read Blount's March 1950 letter more closely, since he says "Mexico", not "New Mexico", which inspired me to look for possible crashes south of the border from around that time--but nothing matches.

You're right that is my mistake. In that case then he is talking about the March 9th claim by Roy L. Dimmick. As detailed in the excerpt from Scully's book below...

Then on March 9, Roy L. Dimmick, Los Angeles sales manager for the Apache Powder

Company, the sort of man who would be welcome on almost any jury, started a veritable

stampede of disk jitters when he reported the wreckage of a flying saucer picked up near

Mexico City. It had a dead pilot on board. The space ship measured 46 feet across, he

said, and the pilot measured 23 inches.

"American military men have viewed the strange object," Dimmick testified, "but for

military security reasons the entire matter has been kept very hush-hush."

The next day Dimmick dropped back to what the military call "a previously prepared

position" and said he hadn't actually seen the space ship personally but had talked to two

important men-one from Mexico and the other from Ecuador-who had. One had given

him a strip of metal from the saucer. It looked like aluminum, but wasn't of a metal

known to this earth, he added. This had a familiar ring. I've handled some of that stuff,

too.

"I think the government ought to make its position clear," Dimmick complained. "If it

doesn't want to discuss these things for reasons of security, why not say so?"

But the Air Force was not saying anything of the sort. The saucers were "a mild form of

mass hysteria." (Except in cases like Dimmick's. He would fall, I suppose, according to

their rigid classifications, into either the group suffering from hallucinations or the

perpetrators of hoaxes.)

http://www.scribd.com/doc/3927939/BEHIND-THE-FLYING-SAUCERS-Frank-Scully-134-pp-ebook See pp 12.

[TheMcGuffin]

And Mexico is a big country, Lost Sharman, so the alleged crash could have happened anywhere, even hundreds of miles from the United States.

Did you ever hear that story George Marshall told Dr. Rolf Alexander about a UFO crash in Mexico?

"The United States has recovered UFOs and their occupants. The UFOs were from a different planet and they were friendly. They have been hovering over defense facilities and airports. The U.S. authorities were convinced they had nothing to fear from them. The U.S. wanted people to concentrate on the real menace, communism, and not be distracted by the visitors from space. There has actually been contact with the men in the UFOs and there have been landings."

General George C. Marshall

U.S. Army Chief of Staff in World War II; Secretary of State, 1947

(as told to Dr. Rolf Alexander)

1951"

http://www.aliens-everything-you-want-to-know.com/AliensEverybodyKnows.html

[TheMcGuffin]

You're right that is my mistake. In that case then he is talking about the March 9th claim by Roy L. Dimmick. As detailed in the excerpt from Scully's book below...

Yes, I'm right, and he may be talking about that case, or it might be something else, like the one Gen. Marshall mentioned to Dr. Alexander.

According to Timothy Good, Marshall told Alexander that aliens had been recovered somehwere in Mexico and the Southwest, and that they had a bad reaction to the atmosphere on earth--or perhaps it was something else in our environment.

http://books.google.com/books?id=Tqu7764c2cQC&pg=PA162&lpg=PA162&dq=Rolf+Alexander+ufo&source=bl&ots=fL8Y5xAJmj&sig=1yaFh8T918yxsL3Eh7ArlQXheko&hl=en&ei=sjGlTf38J6Lf0gH47cTkCA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=2&ved=0CB4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=Rolf%20Alexander%20ufo&f=false

Nor was Good as certain as Marshall that all the aliens were friendly, since there had been some "incidents" over the years.

Edited April 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[TheMcGuffin]

In 1951, Marshall also specifically told Dr. Alexander that there had been three UFO crashes up to that point, with alien bodies recovered each time. he did not say exactly where those had been, but the FBI memo also referred to three crashes.

To me, it seems like Scully and friends picked up some information about this, from Dr. Heiland or other sources. I don't know if these crashes were at Aztec, Roswell or somewhere else, but that number three popped up more than once in 1950-51.

Edited April 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[lost_shaman]

Yes, I'm right,

Well someone certainly has an Ego! Yes, you corrected me on one DETAIL to date. Yet how many DETAILS has it been that I've brought up that you have ignored?

and he may be talking about that case, or it might be something else, like the one Gen. Marshall mentioned to Dr. Alexander.

I guess the difference is that my evidence adheres to a strict timeline while yours is just cherry picking whatever you can find that you think supports the ETH.

[deathperation]

Awesome

[TheMcGuffin]

Well someone certainly has an Ego! Yes, you corrected me on one DETAIL to date. Yet how many DETAILS has it been that I've brought up that you have ignored?

I guess the difference is that my evidence adheres to a strict timeline while yours is just cherry picking whatever you can find that you think supports the ETH.

I disagree with that on both counts. The difference between Mexico and New Mexico is not a minor detail--just as any Mexican.

As far as cherry picking goes, there are many people on the "skeptical" side who do nothing else except cherry pick. I have often pointed out that I am skeptical on this or that UFO case, and have observed that that always gets a favorable response from "skeptics" like you, but anything that seems to be pro-ETH gets ignored. That's cherry-picking with a vengeance.

Edited April 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[booNyzarC]

What exactly do you think has been ignored McGuffin?

[TheMcGuffin]

William Steinman wrote his book UFO Crash at Aztec in 1986, and was researching it long before the MJ-12 documents appeared. As I said many times, I don't know if there was a crash at Aztec, but I have found repeated references to three UFO crashes that took place in this period, although the records and statements by officials like George Marshall did not specify where and when.

Various people who looked into this over the years did find some evidence that a UFO had crashed at Aztec, and ths did not depend on dubious characters like Scully, Newton and Gebauer.

Steinman was even a victim of some creative "editing" of his letters by people like William Moore, who is a truly dubious character and may well have been involved in concocting the original MJ-12 documents with Sergeant Richard Doty and his friends.

http://www.ufoera.com/articles/facts-surrounding-the-steinman-barker-letter_1190310873.html

And Steinman did interview people like Dr. Eric Walker, who were involved with UFO investigations (including crash/recovery operations), although they basically told him the forget about it because these things were all classified.

http://www.presidentialufo.com/dr-eric-walker/220-august-30-1987-interview-bill-steinman-with-dr-walker

Edited April 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[TheMcGuffin]

What exactly do you think has been ignored McGuffin?

I'd say that when someone of the caliber of George Marshall mentions that there have been three UFO crashes, that's a pretty significant event--and that is what he told Dr. Alexander.

If Marshall really said that, then I'd consider it to be 100% true, and something that should not be so casually ignored. He did not specify where or when these crashes occurred, and did not mention Aztec, Roswell or anyplace else so far as I know, just that they had happened, bodies were recovered, and contacts had been made.

Edited April 13, 2011 by TheMcGuffin

[TheMcGuffin]

What exactly do you think has been ignored McGuffin?

And I'd say that Timothy Good's books should not be so casually ignored, either, since he has looked into this for many years and developed hundreds of classified sources who know about highly classified UFO information, including crash/retrieval operations. This extensive research by Good and others like Richard Dolan can't simply be brushed off and dismissed as if it does not exist.

[booNyzarC]

I'd say that when someone of the caliber of George Marshall mentions that there have been three UFO crashes, that's a pretty significant event--and that is what he told Dr. Alexander.

If Marshall really said that, then I'd consider it to be 100% true, and something that should not be so casually ignored. He did not specify where or when these crashes occurred, and did not mention Aztec, Roswell or anyplace else so far as I know, just that they had happened, bodies were recovered, and contacts had been made.

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not completely up to speed on every released document, but outside of the dubious the MJ-12 realm, where did George Marshall say this?

[TheMcGuffin]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm not completely up to speed on every released document, but outside of the dubious the MJ-12 realm, where did George Marshall say this?

Look at my previous posts--which got ignored, of course--it's in Timothy Good's book Above Top Secret.

[booNyzarC]

Look at my previous posts--which got ignored, of course--it's in Timothy Good's book Above Top Secret.

Give me a break McGuffin. Has it occurred to you that I could have possibly missed, or misunderstood some portions of your previous posts?

[TheMcGuffin]

Give me a break McGuffin. Has it occurred to you that I could have possibly missed, or misunderstood some portions of your previous posts?

I thought it was unfair to accuse me of cherry picking and all that, since I have criticized plenty of UFO cases as fake--or probably fake. If I think there's something real and worth looking at, I concentrate on that.

[Space Commander Travis]

And I'd say that Timothy Good's books should not be so casually ignored, either, since he has looked into this for many years and developed hundreds of classified sources who know about highly classified UFO information, including crash/retrieval operations. This extensive research by Good and others like Richard Dolan can't simply be brushed off and dismissed as if it does not exist.

He has, yes, but he also seems to tend to.. how can I put this... not be too discriminating. He gave Bob Lazar all the oxygen of publicity he could he wished for, for instance, and in Alien Liaison (known in the USA, I find, as Alien Contact, perhaps because the publishers thought Americans couldn't spell Liaison, I don't know, but I'm diversifying again) he does give rather a lot of space to a character called Bob Oechsler, who made all sorts of wild & imaginative claims about being involved in a NASA disclosure program and visiting secret UFO tracking stations and what have you.

[booNyzarC]

I thought it was unfair to accuse me of cherry picking and all that, since I have criticized plenty of UFO cases as fake--or probably fake. If I think there's something real and worth looking at, I concentrate on that.

I'm sorry if you have explained this already, but what is the actual source of that supposed quote from Marshall?

And I'm not talking about the link you gave, (which doesn't exactly provide a source for the statement either) but how exactly do we know that he said this?

Forgive my lack of faith in UFOlogy claims, but I just got through an argument with someone else about another unverified "quote" by someone else which so far hasn't withstood scrutiny but is bandied about among thousands of UFOlogy websites as though it is historical fact.

[TheMcGuffin]

I'm sorry if you have explained this already, but what is the actual source of that supposed quote from Marshall?

And I'm not talking about the link you gave, (which doesn't exactly provide a source for the statement either) but how exactly do we know that he said this?

Forgive my lack of faith in UFOlogy claims, but I just got through an argument with someone else about another unverified "quote" by someone else which so far hasn't withstood scrutiny but is bandied about among thousands of UFOlogy websites as though it is historical fact.

If you look at Timothy Good's book, it says that Marshall made that statement to Dr. Alexander at the Mexico City airport in 1951. Marshall was Secretary of Defense at that time, and mentioned at least three UFO crashes when alien bodies were recovered.

[TheMcGuffin]

He has, yes, but he also seems to tend to.. how can I put this... not be too discriminating. He gave Bob Lazar all the oxygen of publicity he could he wished for, for instance, and in Alien Liaison (known in the USA, I find, as Alien Contact, perhaps because the publishers thought Americans couldn't spell Liaison, I don't know, but I'm diversifying again) he does give rather a lot of space to a character called Bob Oechsler, who made all sorts of wild & imaginative claims about being involved in a NASA disclosure program and visiting secret UFO tracking stations and what have you.

I can only suggest that you read Good's books like Need to Know, since there's a lot more in there than Bob Lazar.

[Space Commander Travis]

Oh, I'm a big fan of his. Just that I think you need to be... discriminating... when looking at the evidence he puts forward.

[booNyzarC]

If you look at Timothy Good's book, it says that Marshall made that statement to Dr. Alexander at the Mexico City airport in 1951. Marshall was Secretary of Defense at that time, and mentioned at least three UFO crashes when alien bodies were recovered.

I don't have Timothy Good's book. Does his book source the statement? Is this according to Dr. Alexander or someone else?

If so... can we rightly put quotes around his statement which gives the impression that it is in fact a full and actual quote? Does that not strike you as dishonest at all?

[booNyzarC]

Is this the same Dr. Rolf Alexander?

Hrmmm...

No further biographical information about the author could be found, except for a reference in The UFO Encyclopedia (2nd ed. 1998, p.277) by Jerome Clark, who writes: “In 1956, England's Flying Saucer Review published startling revelations by a contributor identified only as a ‘special correspondent.’ The correspondent asserted that a highly placed American official had confided to him that UFOs were known to contain friendly space visitors who were trying to find a way to breathe Earth’s atmosphere before landing and declaring themselves. The magazine revealed nine years later that its unnamed informant was one ‘Rolf Alexander, M.D.,’ and that the official was the late general and diplomat George C. Marshall. It did not mention that ‘Alexander’ was in fact an ex-convict whose real name was Allan Alexander Stirling. ‘Alexander’ claimed vast psychokinetic powers that allowed him to break up clouds.”

According to Benjamin Creme, however, Rolf Alexander “was not Alexander Stirling, nor was he convicted of any crime.” (Share International No.10, December 2007, p.27)

So was he or wasn't he? I don't suppose you would happen to know whether he was the same Dr. Alexander with these wondrous psychokinetic cloud dispersing powers?

[booNyzarC]

I don't know about you, but the authenticity of this particular Marshall "quote" is highly suspect in my opinion. Why on earth would he share such information with some random doctor in an airport anyway? Not to mention a doctor who appears... well... eccentric?

ETA: But you're right, I should have paid closer attention to this worthy information when you first mentioned it.

Edited April 13, 2011 by booNyzarC

[DONTEATUS]

Ive actually walked around in Aztec N,M and its beautiful there,One should spend more time walking around and Looking at Earths wonders,than wondering if E.T. is really here !

We know E.T. is really here ! Just watch the news any time of the day!