Woman in face veil detained

[Little Fish]

Yup. I still say security is paramount.

According to the bill, are all veils banned or specifically Muslim?

Nibs

are you claiming this law is not discrimnating? come on!

[Little Fish]

I can see the logic behind the ban. People don't feel comfortable if the face is covered and that leads to suspicion and genuine security concerns.

Think of it like this: two people of similar height and build wear the full veil. How do you tell the difference? Point is, you can't. One could be a criminal on the run and one could be just an innocent civilian and you can't tell them apart.

If these women want to wear them, they should have the freedom to do so, but if someone wants to see their face, the religion card should not be allowed to be played to prevent it.

how can you tell apart a criminal or non criminal if they are not wearing veils? innocent until proven guilty is the cornerstone of civilisation, not guilty until proven innocent.

why should anyone want to see their face? and what right does anyone have to see their face?

whose business is it?

[shadowhive]

how can you tell apart a criminal or non criminal if they are not wearing veils? innocent until proven guilty is the cornerstone of civilisation, not guilty until proven innocent.

why should anyone want to see their face? and what right does anyone have to see their face?

whose business is it?

That's my point. If a crime's been committed, the criminal could easily wear a veil and hide among a group of Muslims wearing the veil, thusly hiding quite effectively. Remember how bank robbers used to wear balaclavas to hide their faces?

What right do people have do check my bag at an airport? What right do people have to make me walk through a metal detector before going into a goverment building?

Sometimes measures to protect everyone infringe a little, but I'd rather have measures in place to ensure everyone's safety rather then pander to a group that wants to subvert them.

Like I said, if Muslims want to wear the veil, fine. But they shouldn't get offended if asked to take the off to show their faces

Edited April 11, 2011 by shadowhive

[Little Fish]

That's my point. If a crime's been committed, the criminal could easily wear a veil and hide among a group of Muslims wearing the veil, thusly hiding quite effectively. Remember how bank robbers used to wear balaclavas to hide their faces?

What right do people have do check my bag at an airport? What right do people have to make me walk through a metal detector before going into a goverment building?

Sometimes measures to protect everyone infringe a little, but I'd rather have measures in place to ensure everyone's safety rather then pander to a group that wants to subvert them.

Like I said, if Muslims want to wear the veil, fine. But they shouldn't get offended if asked to take the off to show their faces

airport bag checks and metal detectors are not neutralised by the veil.

they are not being asked to show their faces at passport control, they have made it illegal anywhere on the streets, even outside their front doors. you are just looking for reasons to justify it. how does showing their face in public protect you and make you safe?

[shadowhive]

airport bag checks and metal detectors are not neutralised by the veil.

they are not being asked to show their faces at passport control, they have made it illegal anywhere on the streets, even outside their front doors. you are just looking for reasons to justify it. how does showing their face in public protect you and make you safe?

I was using those as an example.

I'm aware of that, that's why I said the ban was wrong. I also said I understood the basic reasoning behind it and gave examples as to why.

I'll say it again: the ban is wrong, but so is forcing someone to wear one and claiming that your religion means you can't show your face when it is necessary to confirm your identity.

[dekker87]

i wouldnt be allowed to walk around with a balaclava on so why should exceptions be made for muslim women?

why don't we put it to the vote in England.

let's see how far democracy is prepared to go.

whilst in India a few years ago i saw a clearly muslim man (i was in goa which is christian) walk into our hotel with his burkha clad wife a few paces behind him...this man then walked around the entire swimming area leering at all the women sat with bikini's on...whilst his wife trundled along behind him obediently.

whilst at university in a northern town 10 years ago i got into a cab...the driver was of pakistani muslim heritage (as evidenced by various flags etc within the cab)...as he was driving me home he proceeded to tell me how western women were all 'slags' because of the way they dressed...pointing our various girls along the way making comments about how they were slags because of their short skirts, heels etc.

the issue isn't the burkha....the issue is the attitude of some muslim men (usually of a certain heritage) towards western and westernised women. the burkha / niqab etc are just examples of the paternalistic attitude of islam. don't get conned by the all the total bs about this actually being something to protect women - western women don't wear burkhas....yet they have more rights and freedoms than muslim women...perhaps it's something within Islam itself that fosters such male attitudes towards women that makes men into such untamed, uncivilised beasts that women must cover up to protect themselves.

consider this though...muslims around the world are crying their eyes out and making death threats because westerners have burnt their so called holy book...as westerners we are allowed to do such a thing...burning the koran breaks no laws....yet muslims want this to be banned...but at the same time they want westerners to respect their cultural values and not ban the burkha...why the double standards?

[dekker87]

Lmao! Most of the replies on here are so ignorant in knowledge and understanding it's laughable!

people do not need to understand the twisted justification to know they find it offensive.

Democracy and freedom are rights of everyone, to express one self visually verbally ideologically are essential fundamentals of freedom and democracy,

do you agree with my right to burn a book if i so wished?

to draw cartoons?

my freedom to say that mohammed was a paedophile who slept with a 9yr old child?

this ban is clearly against freedom of religion, expression and the freedom to dress as one wishes.

if i were to wear a t-shirt showing your prophet as a terrorist would you be offended?

A person walk around with a Nazi symbol

no they can't.

but a women cannot wear a burqa covering herself, her chastity etc.

what does wearing a sack have to do with chastity?

I understand the perspective that in a bank identity is a must, this is not a realistic problem, all a bank needs to do is send a female worker, clerk etc to speak and to get their identity, visually. Simples!!!!

why do muslims deserve special treatment? no-one else needs nor expects such behaviour.

This whole ban is another bigoted extremist secular move by a country which already treats Muslims as second class citizens and have done so for decades.

your religion makes women cover their faces yet you say the prevention of such abuse means that they are 2nd class citizens!?!? lol!!!

As for those who claim the hijab is repressive, this is BS, as much as I respect your opinion it's baseless in evidence.

no it isn't.

Just ponder on the following fact, Europe and America has the highest number of converts to Islam, which is the fastest spreading religion in these continents,

middle class rebels. nothing more....nothing deeper. look further into this and that becomes apparent. the converts aren't generally your 'moderate' muslims...they are radicals.

out of those who convert the large majority are women from all backgrounds, from highly educated career women to housewives, from secular, atheist and other religious backgrounds. Why? Why turn to Islam if it represses them?

men have the financial responsibility for their wives under islam

[Abramelin]

are you claiming this law is not discrimnating? come on!

Fish, the next may sound ridiculous, but I will post it anyway...

Of course people should be free to wear the clothing they like, and if people of some culture or religion desire to wear a pointed hat, no problem.

The reason those body-covering veils are forbidden is not just (personally I think not at all, but that's just me...) because of protecting the rights of women.

Now the ridiculous part, lol.

Here in the Netherlands it is forbidden to drive a car with tainted windows.

If the police here sees you driving a car with those windows, they will arrest you and you will have to pay 75 euros.

If you don't believe me (and I hope you can read Dutch), here's a site: http://www.autoglasfolies.nl/index.php?folder_id=7&file_id=28

You know, maybe someone is sensitive to sunlight, or just loves to sit in private, picking his nose unseen by anyone.

But whatever your reason, it's still forbidden, and you will have to pay.

[dekker87]

Of course people should be free to wear the clothing they like, and if people of some culture or religion desire to wear a pointed hat, no problem

how about one of these:

Edited April 12, 2011 by dekker87

[Abramelin]

how about one of these:

Never seen those here, but after the policeman is done laughing, I think he will arrest this person who walks around in 'full-body-covering'.

[dekker87]

Never seen those here, but after the policeman is done laughing, I think he will arrest this person who walks around in 'full-body-covering'.

it's a KKK outfit.

why would the person be arrested?

i agree tho...it's absurd.

[Abramelin]

it's a KKK outfit.

why would the person be arrested?

i agree tho...it's absurd.

Because a full-body-covering is forbidden (I'm not that sure about the Netherlands, but I guess it would be forbidden in France). If not, then that would amaze me.

And let's be honest, these KKK types are truelly nasty.

But the outfit is originally from Spain: http://www.valenciavalencia.com/culture-guide/semana-santa/ku-klux-klan-semana-santa-spain.htm

.

Edited April 12, 2011 by Abramelin

[dekker87]

Because a full-body-covering is forbidden (I'm not that sure about the Netherlands, but I guess it would be forbidden in France). If not, then that would amaze me.

And let's be honest, these KKK types are truelly nasty.

But the dress is from Spain: http://www.valenciavalencia.com/culture-guide/semana-santa/ku-klux-klan-semana-santa-spain.htm

more people have been killed in the name of islam than the retards of the KKK ever managed.

so are burkhas banned in holland then?

[+HerNibs]

are you claiming this law is not discrimnating? come on!

Huh? Where did I say that? I asked what the bill specifically said. Does it target Islam or just general body covering outfits?

Nibs

[dekker87]

Huh? Where did I say that? I asked what the bill specifically said. Does it target Islam or just general body covering outfits?

Nibs

the answer is generally face / body outfits.

so it's not really discriminatory in law....in practice it maybe.

[+HerNibs]

the answer is generally face / body outfits.

so it's not really discriminatory in law....in practice it maybe.

If it isn't targeting a particular religion and is based on security then yeah, I'd have to say the law should stand.

There are laws all over the US that say you can't run about nekkid too so we can't say that the US doesn't legislate appearance.

If the law is USED to target Muslim women then there is a problem.

Nibs

[dekker87]

If it isn't targeting a particular religion and is based on security then yeah, I'd have to say the law should stand.

There are laws all over the US that say you can't run about nekkid too so we can't say that the US doesn't legislate appearance.

If the law is USED to target Muslim women then there is a problem.

Nibs

i totally agree nibs

i think that prior to the muslim influx there was almost an unwritten rule that you would be challenged if you totally covered your face whilst doin things in public that didnt require a facial covering....of course when muslim women started walking around with ninja suits on this rankled with the majority of people who find it offensive and so the 'unwritten' rule needed to be put into a legal framework.

so i could be said to be both generalised (because the rules apply to everyone) AND targetting muslims (because the law has been enacted to deal with the burkha).

[+HerNibs]

i totally agree nibs

i think that prior to the muslim influx there was almost an unwritten rule that you would be challenged if you totally covered your face whilst doin things in public that didnt require a facial covering....of course when muslim women started walking around with ninja suits on this rankled with the majority of people who find it offensive and so the 'unwritten' rule needed to be put into a legal framework.

so i could be said to be both generalised (because the rules apply to everyone) AND targetting muslims (because the law has been enacted to deal with the burkha).

The portion of your post that I bolded is a GREAT point. I think that prior to the Islamic hysteria ANYONE who was wandering around fully covered would be stopped and questioned.

*giggles at ninja suit* I always called the burka a beekeeper dress.

Nibs

[dekker87]

The portion of your post that I bolded is a GREAT point. I think that prior to the Islamic hysteria ANYONE who was wandering around fully covered would be stopped and questioned.

*giggles at ninja suit* I always called the burka a beekeeper dress.

Nibs

flippant but it gets to the heart of the issue...

if i walked around town dressed like this what do you think would happen to me:

[+HerNibs]

flippant but it gets to the heart of the issue...

if i walked around town dressed like this what do you think would happen to me:

Pirates would attack you.

Nibs

[purplepsyche]

Transcript and audio interview NPR - Face veil ban goes into effect (April 11)

I'm trying to find the French law itself regarding this ban, but no luck thus far on that. However, in the search I did find this bit of news from March of this year.

Belgium moves to ban the burqa (translated)

[Little Fish]

I think that prior to the Islamic hysteria ANYONE who was wandering around fully covered would be stopped and questioned.

why would someone question you if you covered your face?

this is getting bizarre, I can't identify with this mentality.

the assumption in all of this is that the face covered person is up to no good.

[+HerNibs]

why would someone question you if you covered your face?

this is getting bizarre, I can't identify with this mentality.

the assumption in all of this is that the face covered person is up to no good.

Ok, you wander around your town with a bedsheet over your head and body. Refuse to explain it or take it off if requested.

Then let me know how that goes.

Nibs

[Paracelse]

why would someone question you if you covered your face?

this is getting bizarre, I can't identify with this mentality.

the assumption in all of this is that the face covered person is up to no good.

If you ever wander in one of numerous Muslim countries, you have to respect their laws, no women are allowed in their "temples" you cannot touch a woman, European women have to wear head gears of a sort etc.. the list is too long to mention. In France, there are mores just like there are some in their countries. All is asked is to respect the French mores and if this requires not to be covered from head to toes then so be it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1244402/Women-wear-burka-banned-benefits-public-transport-claims-French-government-spokesman.html

[Little Fish]

Ok, you wander around your town with a bedsheet over your head and body. Refuse to explain it or take it off if requested.

Then let me know how that goes.

Nibs

why would anyone ask me to take it off or ask me to explain it?

do you have the dress police in your town?

mind your own **** business would be my response.