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Woman in face veil detained


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If you ever wander in one of numerous Muslim countries, you have to respect their laws, no women are allowed in their "temples" you cannot touch a woman, European women have to wear head gears of a sort etc.. the list is too long to mention. In France, there are mores just like there are some in their countries. All is asked is to respect the French mores and if this requires not to be covered from head to toes then so be it.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/article-1244402/Women-wear-burka-banned-benefits-public-transport-claims-French-government-spokesman.html

do the french allow jews to wear skull caps?

explain to me the difference.

so now they want to deny benefits to people who wear veils, and ban public transport.

doesn't anyone see the paralells here with nazi germany? france of all places!

Edited by Little Fish
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If religious leaders were not set to the most rigid interpretation of Islam, which comes from Saudi Arabia and insists on including their tribal customs in the religion, such laws would be completely out of question because sane women usually are not to prone to walk around wearing tents over their heads.

More sane religious leaders would mean fewer problems. I think. But the most insane are financed and – like in any other religion – various preachers are usually more interested in that than in faith.

Has anyone noticed that Muslim people in European countries were not that visible some 20 years ago? They were there and they were equally Muslim as today, but they felt no need to poke their neighbours’ eyes with that fact.

Where from all that visible religiousness came?

It came with Saudi money, that buys way for Saudi Vahabism.

It would be far more effective to stop financing of radical preachers, terrorist cells and other interesting phenomena that follow than to chase veiled women.

Some of them are covered against their will, some of them are actually paid to do that, some are talked by radicals into believing it’s something Quran commands them. It’s not. Muslim women are expected to be modest. What’s the opposite of modest? Provoking.

Well, wearing burkha in Europe is provoking. It reminds people of burglars, robbers, ninjas and demonic apparitions. So why those women chose to be provoking instead of modest?

Because the tolerant Muslims are not Muslim enough for Vahabi taste.

France and other western countries could solve a lot of problems if they’d stop pretending they don’t know what’s going on. But they are not insane to spoil their loving relationship with such adorably rich country. No, they’ll play fashion police instead.

Pathetic.

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"It reminds people of burglars, robbers, ninjas and demonic apparitions"

wow, is that what you think when you see a women with a veil?

what's going on here is conditioned societal fear and suspicion, same as the nazis created towards the jews.

suddenly Yoda begins to make sense

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you"

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"It reminds people of burglars, robbers, ninjas and demonic apparitions"

wow, is that what you think when you see a women with a veil?

what's going on here is conditioned societal fear and suspicion, same as the nazis created towards the jews.

suddenly Yoda begins to make sense

"Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in you"

Actually, this is what I think when I see a woman wearing veil on TV, since Muslim women in my country are not wearing that: “My god, what’s her story? Why she wants to stick out? Is it some childhood trauma, some political agenda, what?”

Have you read the rest of my post, by any chance, or you just picked the ninja part? Because it goes so well with your Jedi belief? :lol:

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why would anyone ask me to take it off or ask me to explain it?

do you have the dress police in your town?

mind your own **** business would be my response.

Yep. I have POLICE in my town and if I wander around in a bedsheet and refuse to take it off when asked by the cops I will be hauled in for questioning.

I also can't run around naked.

You go ahead an try.

Nibs

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Yep. I have POLICE in my town and if I wander around in a bedsheet and refuse to take it off when asked by the cops I will be hauled in for questioning.

why would the police ask you to take it off and on what grounds will you be harrassed by the police?

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Actually, this is what I think when I see a woman wearing veil on TV, since Muslim women in my country are not wearing that: “My god, what’s her story? Why she wants to stick out? Is it some childhood trauma, some political agenda, what?”

Have you read the rest of my post, by any chance, or you just picked the ninja part? Because it goes so well with your Jedi belief? :lol:

My aunt, a muslim, calles the newwave muslim :muslims for money. And she is right. A sixtyfive year old bosnian muslim woman from sarajevo can not be fooled that easy.

I got still pictures from my grandmothers, muslims. Their hair coverd with a small scarf and thats it.

Helen is right. Saudis are pushing the most radical form of their islam on other muslims. I am not an expert on Quran but I as far as I know Muhamed said do not cry to much, do not laugh to much. Means do not go to extriems and be always moderate in what you do.

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Yep. I have POLICE in my town and if I wander around in a bedsheet and refuse to take it off when asked by the cops I will be hauled in for questioning.

what happened to your constitution, bill of rights, freedom of religion, unreasonable search and seizure?

why would you willingly give that up?

as long as HER rights and freedoms are protected, then yours are protected. you can't expect freedom if you deny others freedom.

Edited by Little Fish
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My aunt, a muslim, calles the newwave muslim :muslims for money. And she is right. A sixtyfive year old bosnian muslim woman from sarajevo can not be fooled that easy.

I got still pictures from my grandmothers, muslims. Their hair coverd with a small scarf and thats it.

Helen is right. Saudis are pushing the most radical form of their islam on other muslims. I am not an expert on Quran but I as far as I know Muhamed said do not cry to much, do not laugh to much. Means do not go to extriems and be always moderate in what you do.

My Catholic grandmother would wear a scarf to church, naturally. Scarves are part of every (female) national costume in this part of the world, that would look a bit ridiculous as everyday clothing today, but ethno festivals are unthinkable without that.

I actually met Bosnian Muslim woman, refugee, who told me she was offered money to cover herself. It's a sad and horrible story, since she had everything, education, job, home, nice clothes... everything destroyed and looted. Probably someone in Serbia still wears some of her clothing, maybe doesn't even know it was stolen from her wardrobe before place was torched down. And then she finds herself in charity, looking for food, my god, and gets advised to come back wrapped up if she wants to be helped properly.

If I was Muslim, I think Id think that Muhamed wanted to say that we should know when to let go, not to sink into depression with no end or forget about everything and everyone else in moments of happiness. Balance. Nothing scary in that, and that's precisely why media is not interested in that.

Edited by Helen of Annoy
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do the french allow jews to wear skull caps?

explain to me the difference.

so now they want to deny benefits to people who wear veils, and ban public transport.

doesn't anyone see the paralells here with nazi germany? france of all places!

Have you ever tried to drive with a nigab??? And yes there are many parallels between EU and nazi Germany but it's not about what you think.

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Have you ever tried to drive with a nigab???

what is the difference?

BellShield_Star_Helmet_Show_Eye_Port.jpg

SuperStock_1848-219651.jpg

niqab.jpg

And yes there are many parallels between EU and nazi Germany but it's not about what you think.

what's it about ?

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what is the difference?

:lol:

this seems pretty elementary but i'll explain anyway...

BellShield_Star_Helmet_Show_Eye_Port.jpg

SuperStock_1848-219651.jpg

these are motorcycle helmets worn to protect the wearers head in the event of an accident.

these helmets are only used when on the motorbike.

perhaps it's different where you come from but no-one walks around here wearing a motorcycle helmet 24 hours a day.

niqab.jpg

that is a veil worn for pseudo-religious but more correctly termed 'tribal' reasons that are predicated on the desirability of a woman and the inability of a man to 'control' himself when 'confronted' with a woman.

an insult to every man alive and a control measure for men who don't believe in the equality of women.

why don't muslim men wear niqabs or full face veils?? why is it only women who are expected to wear them?

what's it about ?

this:

prior to the muslim influx there was almost an unwritten rule that you would be challenged if you totally covered your face whilst doin things in public that didnt require a facial covering....of course when muslim women started walking around with ninja suits on this rankled with the majority of people who find it offensive and so the 'unwritten' rule needed to be put into a legal framework.
the assumption in all of this is that the face covered person is up to no good.

yes!

that's a basic human assumption! if one is covering their face and preventing others from viewing their facial reactions and preventing identification then it's natural to be suspicious.

can you grasp that point?

do the french allow jews to wear skull caps?

explain to me the difference.

a skull cap does not prevent identification nor mask it's wearers emotional responses.

doesn't anyone see the paralells here with nazi germany? france of all places!

not in the slightest no. are you able to explain them for me?

the nazis wanted to make minorities MORE noticeable....not less. the wearing of a burkha / niqab is more akin to nazi policies than the burkha ban. as is the wahabi / salafist fundamentalist strain of Islam behind the 'outrage' over this ban.

you are aware that women in saudi arabia and iran get arrested for not wearing the correct islamic garments? what is your opinion of that sort of thing?

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Actually, this is what I think when I see a woman wearing veil on TV, since Muslim women in my country are not wearing that: “My god, what’s her story? Why she wants to stick out? Is it some childhood trauma, some political agenda, what?”

Have you read the rest of my post, by any chance, or you just picked the ninja part? Because it goes so well with your Jedi belief? :lol:

Your 1st post was spot on, the veil in western society is provoking rather than modest just take a look at the emotional outpourings in this thread. It fundamentally fails it's intended function if it is perceived as anything other than modesty which makes it all the more irrelevant if it is imposed on a culture that has alternative socially conditioned views of those that cover up, like "what are they hiding".

There are laws that need to be enforced in western countries which have rigid requirements of correct and verifiable identification and the voracity of the witness in their ability to identify perpetrators. Hate to state the repeated obvious here but if you do not wish to be identifiable in public it is not an entirely unreasonable perception you have something to hide in due respect to these laws.

Yes I know many women are entirely sincere and many would suffer no freedom whatsoever due to the unbending views about honour etc of themselves and/or their family. But, without being rude, they can enjoy all these freedoms with comfort in their own country, it's their choice. Just as we would be required to uphold their requirements and cover up if we visited there and that would be our choice. :yes:

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Your 1st post was spot on, the veil in western society is provoking rather than modest just take a look at the emotional outpourings in this thread. It fundamentally fails it's intended function if it is perceived as anything other than modesty which makes it all the more irrelevant if it is imposed on a culture that has alternative socially conditioned views of those that cover up, like "what are they hiding".

There are laws that need to be enforced in western countries which have rigid requirements of correct and verifiable identification and the voracity of the witness in their ability to identify perpetrators. Hate to state the repeated obvious here but if you do not wish to be identifiable in public it is not an entirely unreasonable perception you have something to hide in due respect to these laws.

Yes I know many women are entirely sincere and many would suffer no freedom whatsoever due to the unbending views about honour etc of themselves and/or their family. But, without being rude, they can enjoy all these freedoms with comfort in their own country, it's their choice. Just as we would be required to uphold their requirements and cover up if we visited there and that would be our choice. :yes:

i agree with the thrust of your post but let's not kid ourselves that women in saudi arabia or iran (or any of the other countries where the wearing of the veil is a legal requirement) have any other choice but to wear the veil...ie it's not 'their choice' to wear them in such places..it's a legal requirement.

which is another reason i agree with the french ban...

also you say 'back to their own countries' but the highest percentage of niqab wearers is amongst western converts to islam...the vast majority of 1st / 2nd generation muslim immigrants to the west do not wear this garment.

Edited by dekker87
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i agree with the thrust of your post but let's not kid ourselves that women in saudi arabia or iran (or any of the other countries where the wearing of the veil is a legal requirement) have any other choice but to wear the veil...ie it's not 'their choice' to wear them in such places..it's a legal requirement.

which is another reason i agree with the french ban...

also you say 'back to their own countries' but the highest percentage of niqab wearers is amongst western converts to islam...the vast majority of 1st / 2nd generation muslim immigrants to the west do not wear this garment.

Yes, should have considered all that too, there are definitely an unconscionably high number of people being repressed by the accident of the location and culture of their birth as well as those that have taken to Islam through fascination with its more extreme and notorious (at least to the populist media)elements. :tu:

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Your 1st post was spot on, the veil in western society is provoking rather than modest just take a look at the emotional outpourings in this thread. It fundamentally fails it's intended function if it is perceived as anything other than modesty which makes it all the more irrelevant if it is imposed on a culture that has alternative socially conditioned views of those that cover up, like "what are they hiding".

There are laws that need to be enforced in western countries which have rigid requirements of correct and verifiable identification and the voracity of the witness in their ability to identify perpetrators. Hate to state the repeated obvious here but if you do not wish to be identifiable in public it is not an entirely unreasonable perception you have something to hide in due respect to these laws.

Yes I know many women are entirely sincere and many would suffer no freedom whatsoever due to the unbending views about honour etc of themselves and/or their family. But, without being rude, they can enjoy all these freedoms with comfort in their own country, it's their choice. Just as we would be required to uphold their requirements and cover up if we visited there and that would be our choice. :yes:

Thank you for actually reading my posts :D

I totally agree that those people who cannot accept basics of western life style (such as walking around unmasked, avoiding honour killings etc.) shouldn’t immigrate into western countries. Same goes the other way around, I’d never move to a country where sharia is the law.

Hell, I’m not going there as a tourist either. I find “our” Christian clergy pushy, nosy, noisy and arrogant beyond belief, so sharia crowd would give me an instant nervous breakdown. I don’t need that.

Maybe this globalization thing went too fast. People are apparently not ready for each other. On the other hand, there are thousands of completely normal Muslim people that don’t come to parade around in burkhas or shout bloodthirsty slogans. They simply want to live, work and mind their own business in the West.

Professional Muslims, those who look for conflict in hope of getting something out of it, are making life impossible for normal Muslim people.

This French law is just perfect for such trolls. “Aw, we are being oppressed, discriminated against, chased around by French fashion police!”

So while Iranian fashion police hunts girls to put a piece of cloth on their heads, French fashion police will hunt them and insist they present their haircuts to the world. Does that sound bizarre or what?

Meanwhile, no one is doing anything to stop the flow of money that keeps radicals influential.

And that money comes from us, you in the West and me in this Godforsakenlandia, each time we buy hilariously overpriced fuel. We finance this circus. Because we’re morons with no spine or integrity.

Serve us right, then.

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Thank you for actually reading my posts :D

I totally agree that those people who cannot accept basics of western life style (such as walking around unmasked, avoiding honour killings etc.) shouldn’t immigrate into western countries. Same goes the other way around, I’d never move to a country where sharia is the law.

Hell, I’m not going there as a tourist either. I find “our” Christian clergy pushy, nosy, noisy and arrogant beyond belief, so sharia crowd would give me an instant nervous breakdown. I don’t need that.

Maybe this globalization thing went too fast. People are apparently not ready for each other. On the other hand, there are thousands of completely normal Muslim people that don’t come to parade around in burkhas or shout bloodthirsty slogans. They simply want to live, work and mind their own business in the West.

Professional Muslims, those who look for conflict in hope of getting something out of it, are making life impossible for normal Muslim people.

This French law is just perfect for such trolls. “Aw, we are being oppressed, discriminated against, chased around by French fashion police!”

So while Iranian fashion police hunts girls to put a piece of cloth on their heads, French fashion police will hunt them and insist they present their haircuts to the world. Does that sound bizarre or what?

Meanwhile, no one is doing anything to stop the flow of money that keeps radicals influential.

And that money comes from us, you in the West and me in this Godforsakenlandia, each time we buy hilariously overpriced fuel. We finance this circus. Because we’re morons with no spine or integrity.

Serve us right, then.

good points.

:tu:

Maybe this globalization thing went too fast. People are apparently not ready for each other.

you know which country prior to the last 60 years was the most 'multi-cultural'?

Germany.

not just 'multicultural' as we understand it today....but 'multicultural' as we would like it to be...immigrants properly assimilating etc etc etc.

i don't quite know what that means but i found that to be very interesting in light of what later happened...

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so do people get suspicious when they speak to a muslim woman wearing a veil over the phone, or listen to a muslim woman wearing a veil on the radio?

Edited by Little Fish
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why don't muslim men wear niqabs or full face veils?? why is it only women who are expected to wear them?

as I understand it they are not expected to wear them, it's a choice isn't it?

and thanks for acknowledging that the veil does not interfere with driving, as that was the point I was addressing.

Edited by Little Fish
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A person can be detained for suspicious behavior. Which is what I KNOW I would happen if I wandered around in a bedsheet. Also, you can be detained and possibly charged with refusing to follow an officer's commands.

Now, no one is demanding that these women don't follow their chosen religion. They are regulating if a person can freely wander around completely concealed.

Like I asked before - what is the wording of the bill?

Nibs

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so do people get suspicious when they speak to a muslim woman wearing a veil over the phone, or listen to a muslim woman wearing a veil on the radio?

:lol:

wtf!?!?

that isn't remotely the point is it! this is about face to face communication, the oppression of women, security risks and the fundamental point that muslims are no better nor worse than the rest of us (regardless of some of their ilk doin their best to segregate themselves) and that they should abide by the same laws as everyone else.

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as I understand it they are not expected to wear them, it's a choice isn't it?

not for many women in muslim dominated countries it isn't...not in afghanistan...or iran...or saudi arabia...etc etc etc...in those countries it's a law that if broken can lead to capital punishment.

what was that blather about nazi germany earlier?

:lol:

so by your statement i take it you have not the slightest idea why only muslim women are expected to wear a veil?

and thanks for acknowledging that the veil does not interfere with driving, as that was the point I was addressing.

what!?!?

lol!!!

the veil you posted is not a niqab...which totally covers the face...

tho in any case i don't think anyone was discussin drivin with a veil on.

also it's only full face veils that have been banned....not veils per se...

thanks for actually engaging on the points i made tho eh....rather than ignoring them because you won't deal with the complexity of the situation.

you said:

doesn't anyone see the paralells here with nazi germany? france of all places!

so i replied:

not in the slightest no. are you able to explain them for me?

any more to add?

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:lol:

wtf!?!?

that isn't remotely the point is it!

well i don't know. what is the point? I was suggesting that people communicate without seeing faces every day. You and I are doing it right now. would people be happy identifying themslves online as a compulsory law with imposed penalties if you didn't?

this is about face to face communication
like I said people communicate on the phone, via memos, internet, etc without seeing the others face, so I don;t think that is the point at all.
the oppression of women
if the woman chooses, it cannot be oppression. free choice is diametric to oppression. denying under penaalty the right to wear a veil is oppression too.
security risks
does one need a veil to blow themselves up? you can get a fair bit of semtex under a skull cap. there is no security risk unless we include irrational fear as a threat to feeling secure.
and the fundamental point that muslims are no better nor worse than the rest of us (regardless of some of their ilk doin their best to segregate themselves)

I agree here, so let people wear what they want. I know a guy who dresses in a fairy costume and walks around the shopping centre, probably quite mad, doesn't bother me or anyone else, not even the police.

they should abide by the same laws as everyone else.

I agree there, but there was no law that non muslims had to show their face.

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not for many women in muslim dominated countries it isn't...not in afghanistan...or iran...or saudi arabia...etc etc etc...in those countries it's a law that if broken can lead to capital punishment.

what was that blather about nazi germany earlier?

:lol:

we aren't talking about those countries or those laws.

we are talking about making it illegal to wear a veil if the women wishes to wear a veil

:w00t: :w00t:

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we aren't talking about those countries or those laws.

we are talking about making it illegal to wear a veil if the women wishes to wear a veil

:w00t: :w00t:

:lol:

no we aren't we're talking about making it illegal to cover your face in public...for everyone...not just muslims.

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